I'm going to call logical fallacy here, on the grounds that there is nothing in Libertarianism that rejects the authority of any religion, or the authority of no-religion.Originally Posted by Neil Kiernan Stephenson
Yep. Ron Paul showed us this by having Ralph Nader, Cynthia McKinney and Chuck Baldwin at the same press conference affirming the same key values. I'm not sure why some RP supporters have missed the significance of this. Note that "libertarian" Bob Barr was missing from that conference and attacking Ron Paul for even having it.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
In a different interview, he was asked about Gay Marriage, and said that there should not be a problem with it. That any two adults can enter into any contract they want and call it whatever they want. I will see if I can find it. I never thought I would ever have to argue this with people in this "movement" but I watch now as the religious fascists take over this movement.
Please show me a quote ANYWHERE that states that Libertarianism believes in the authority of religion in government. And I mean from an actual Libertarian. Not a religious fascist pretending to be one.
You can beg to differ all you want. You will still be absolutely wrong. Libertarianism does not recognize the authority of any religion in government. Period.
Here's my take on it...
He's saying that no government-regulated marriage between gays should be allowed.
However, he's also hinting that government shouldn't be regulating marriage -- churches (et al) should. In Dr. Paul's mind, I am conjecturing, marriage via government is a function of health care (avoid inbreeding) and legal status.
In this he avoids being a fanatic about either side of the issue and comes up with a working compromise. Gays can get married in gay churches, but don't get legal status, because it is unlikely that children will come from the union.
Also he pretty clearly states government should ideally not be involved in the business of marriage, that it's a religious ceremony. Therefore, if a church chooses to allow same-sex marriage, he presumably has no problem with it.
Yeah, this is a dark day for the rEVOLution. The true colors are really showing now. Does Ron have any idea what this "endorsement" is doing to his movement?
As I said above, Libertarianism does not prohibit the authority of religion in government.Libertarianism is a term used by a broad spectrum[1] of political philosophies which prioritize individual liberty[2] and seek to minimize or even abolish the state.[3][4] The definition of libertarian in a political sense is a contentious issue and there is no single principle or set of principles on which all libertarians would agree. The proper role of government is described from a number of different metaphysical, epistemological, and moral viewpoints.[5] The word libertarian is an antonym of authoritarian.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
However, Libertarianism is a spectrum running from Republican to Anarchist. Ron Paul very sensibly tempers his Libertarianism with old fashioned, common sense values.
The enemies of freedom would like to see us divided, wouldn't they? But the core issues really are the same, compromise can be had, etc.
Not sure what the deal with Bob Barr is, but many libertarians have become extremists who feel uncomfortable with workable solutions.
You've just "poisoned the well."
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
The CP platform states that they feel that no government can contradict what their god says about marriage. They would seek legislation or oppose legislation according to this belief.
The Constitution's 1st amendment that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
If a religion believes that people cannot marry if they are the same gender, the members of that religion have the right not to perform the ceremony, or they can choose not to marry someone of the same gender themselves. They DO NOT have the right to seek legislation that would ban the marriage of people of the same gender based on their religious beliefs. PERIOD.
You cannot make laws to respect the establishment of a religion.
And you cannot make laws to prevent someone else from practicing theirs. And if their religion permits gay marriage, then that is the end of it.
The Constitution Party platform is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Chuck Baldwin and Darrel Castle have both said they embrace the platform. And it is riddled with unconstitutional intrepetations of the Constitution itself. And an agenda that would call on them to act on their beliefs if they are elected to office.
You guys should of voted for Huckabee.
Saying that the Constitution Party is the party for constitutionalists is like saying the Patriot act is the law for patriots.
Last edited by Neil Kiernan Stephenson; 09-24-2008 at 12:59 PM.
By your definition Ron Paul is a religious fascist.
A ban on gay marriage doesn't stop people from entering into contracts between themselves. Again let's go back to the goat marriage example. If you want to write a contract that says that if you leave your goat you have to give it alimony you can do that. But you can't demand that someone else treat your goat as your spouse just because you entered into such a contract.
Now back to reality. Even without the "right" to get married two people can set up many of the "rights" of marriage through contract. Anybody can through contract give anybody else power of attorney. Anybody can through contract give anybody else hospital visitation rights. Anybody can will anything to anybody else. Anybody through contract force themselves to pay "alimony" to somebody else.
The difference with marriage and contracts in general is that by current law marriage imposes a contract on disinterested third parties. That's the difference.
Regards,
John M. Drake
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Ron Paul himself said he would vote against gay marriage if presented with such a vote in a state legislature. By your definition he's "unconstitutional".
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
I think this is less a dark day than it may appear to be.
First of all, this issue is tiny compared to the big ones facing America and the world. Gay marriage or nuclear proliferation, which to address first?
Second, he's allowing us to pick churches based on their policies. Just like capitalism and democracy, this works by having the most competent people go to churches that reflect their outlooks. It empowers the smart and disorganizes the dumb.
What "true colors"? The intolerance towards Christians? Goodness I've yet to see a Christian thread started with "We must not support Bob Barr because he's ok with gay marriage". Ron Paul's position with his "multiple endorsement" should be clear to anyone willing to actually think it through. Pick the candidate the candidate who has embraced the core principles and best fits YOUR positions and support him (or her in the case of McKinney). Quit trying to "cat herd" or "pigeon hole" your fellow RP supporters into one candidate or another. Those complaining about "religious conservatives" being part of the movement really weren't paying attention to the movement. Dr. Paul actively worked to bring them in and he personally asked Chuck Baldwin to lead that movement.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
+1776
The Constitution Party would make Jefferson $#@! bricks.
"The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."
-Bertrand Russell
I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law
Yep.
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."
Thomas Jefferson.
So much for the theory that the founding fathers wrote the Constitution as an extension of Biblical law.
Also, Thomas Jefferson cautions on the Clergy being involved in government.
* The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man (Letter to J. Moor, 1800).
* The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion (Letter to Benjamin Rush, 1800).
* History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes (Letter to von Humboldt, 1813).
* In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own (Letter to H. Spafford, 1814).
I have three of those quotes in frames, on display.
"The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."
-Bertrand Russell
I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law
Great. Wonderful. Quote Jefferson and ignore all of the other founding fathers. At the end of the day you're still stuck with the fact that Ron Paul explicitly said he would vote against gay marriage if it came up in a state legislature that he might be a part of.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Here's a few more for ya...
Thomas Paine:
"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith."
James Madison:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for is faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
George Washington:
"I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta [Constitution] of our country"
Ron Paul is no Thomas Jefferson, sorry to break the news to you.
"The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."
-Bertrand Russell
I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law
That's fine, because he has that right. He knows that it would be unconstitutional to institute any law or amendment on a federal level banning gay marriage.
The Constitution Party, as quoted, says NO government (state OR federal) should be allowed to implement gay marriages. Ron Paul doesn't think that way - Chuck Baldwin does.
Most RPF people are so disappointing. For such supposedly intelligent and "open minded" people we've got the most narrow minded people I've ever seen. Heck, Reddit is better sometimes at getting an idea right and that's sad.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. - Romans 6:11
To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to laud the more distinguished Character of Christian." - George Washington
Elaborate, please. Are you referring to the narrow minded people that shove Christian values into constitutional government, or the narrow minded people that wish to follow the Constitution as written?
Only when people disagree with you. You're a bigoted homophobe, there's not a libertarian bone in your body. You know, DTS supports the Americans with Disabilities Act [ADA] He's also a religious nut, don't pay him any mind.
One, you should put me back on your ignore list.
Also, I never said I supported the ADA. I just couldn't stand you making light of disabled people.
I'm not a homophobe in any sense of the word. You should seriously stop talking.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. - Romans 6:11
To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to laud the more distinguished Character of Christian." - George Washington
Don't back track. You said we need the ada. You're a bigoted liar, go back to your church of sheep.
Ya know, it's interesting how the "Ron Paul" Revolution can't seem to gain full momentum behind ANY one candidate without this in-fighting.
The Rs and Ds don't have much to worry about (being replaced by another party) in November.
There must be a lot a Libertarians here, 'cause it's "a lot like herding kittens".
Good job showing how ignorant you are. I don't mean to be rude, but I do want to let you know that you are kind of a joke to a lot of people. You so obviously twist everything and everyone can tell what a liar you are it actually makes it comical.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. - Romans 6:11
To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to laud the more distinguished Character of Christian." - George Washington
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