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Thread: Massachusetts Paul delegates voted for McCain??

  1. #61

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    If the situation is true............I may have to find another candidate or liberty group to support. No sense working myself up and stressing myself to get people to vote for freedom candidates when the so called leaders are back stabbing us at every turn



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  3. #62

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    Giving a little.....

    There's no way McCain loses the nomination, that makes the RP delegates from Mass. decision nothing more than a gesture of goodwill. They...WE...lose nothing!!
    Can't get littlier then that.

    Gain alot....If some establishment delegates are swayed just a little by these token gestures and listened to RP delegates on a personal level, remember these people share many of the same views we do, they just don't see it yet, when the crap hits the fan during the next 4 years, our people already involved in the process will be poised to gain.

    Ron Paul has said he's chosen to work within the Republican party and has urged his followers to spread the message of freedom and liberty in the way they choose. Why can't you allow these people their opportunity to do that? You think they've spent all this time, effort and $$$ to abandon the cause?

    Put down the ego a little and consider that your way may not be the only way. Trust your fellow patriots..

  4. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by trapfive View Post
    Giving a little.....

    There's no way McCain loses the nomination, that makes the RP delegates from Mass. decision nothing more than a gesture of goodwill. They...WE...lose nothing!!
    Can't get littlier then that.
    We lose the increased attention to our movement and credibility that would have come with a bigger delegate count.

  5. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by SLSteven View Post
    We lose the increased attention to our movement and credibility that would have come with a bigger delegate count.
    Exactly. Instead of sending a message of noncompromise, a message was sent that the votes could be had for promises of "goodwill", promises from creeps who have broken every rule they themselves made. What nice guys! People entrusted with a mission to vote for Ron Paul were handled like simpletons. Good grief!

    I am still stunned.

  6. #65

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    It's no surprise to me to hear about Republicans lying. Anybody remember the 2000 election and the recount?

    Gary Johnson was the first Republican that I trusted, then Ron Paul's message got to me. I still don't trust many Republicans, but now I don't trust Democrats anymore either. I think that we should all be careful who we trust. There are those Republicans that are so used to lying that they could easily lie their way into our movement.

  7. #66

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    Watching the roll call was depressing as hell, I agree with you there. But I'm not a delegate, I wasn't there, I'm not going to start downgrading people because their efforts didn't live up to my expectations.

    Dr. Paul has said the revolution has started and they, "the establishment", couldn't stop the message if they tried.
    He should know, he's been at it for a lot longer than me. Now I'm joining him in the fight and I must acknowledge that it's going to be a long fight. Change does not happen overnight and it doesn't happen in one election.

    We must join and fight not divide and fall. The machine is expecting the latter...let's disappoint them...ok
    Last edited by trapfive; 09-06-2008 at 10:54 AM.

  8. #67

    Default The RNC

    Quote Originally Posted by RP4EVER View Post
    Then ND and the RNC violated their own rules. Since the 5 were bound to Paul on the first ballot.

    Im not suprised but I would like to hear from an ND source about this
    The RNC has shown time and time again, that they do not believe in the rules. A delegate on dailypaul gave his vote over to McCain, again a goodwill gesture, and will be meeting the leadership to discuss more involvement for the liberty group and thinks this is just fine. By doing this and by saying that it is o.k. for the sake of goodwill to turn over your right as a delegate to present your vote as you represented you would, makes you little better than the inner circle, imo. I suggested he ask at this meeting what that group of RNC leadership was going to do to remedy the harm done to Dr. Paul and to individual liberties by their marginalization. He says that the RNC is fearful and they know they need us...so why wouldn't they allow even a couple of votes for Dr. Paul as a show of fairness?

  9. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by SLSteven View Post
    We lose the increased attention to our movement and credibility that would have come with a bigger delegate count.
    What delegate count?

    I have no doubt our people did the best that they could under the circumstances.
    It's easy for people to sit at home,and be armchair quarterbacks,and deride the decisions made by others.We weren't there!
    If anyone feels they could have done anything different,then by all means get off your asses,and become a delegate yourselves the next time around.

    This constant bickering amongst ourselves lately is stupid,and un-productive.
    I cannot help but wonder if we have been infiltrated by naysayers from other campaigns.

    Don't be fooled;This is a long term project.If you don't have the temperment,and patience for this kind of movement,then spare yourself,and move on.
    Learn to think long term.
    Peace
    " Be sure to get your very own Orgoonian™ Action Figure while supplies last."
    Ex Gladio Libertas
    Bend meetup video
    YouTube - Ron Paul rally in Bend, Oregon
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCVo1...eature=related



    All your delegates are belong to us!

  10. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orgoonian View Post
    What delegate count?

    I have no doubt our people did the best that they could under the circumstances.
    It's easy for people to sit at home,and be armchair quarterbacks,and deride the decisions made by others.We weren't there!
    If anyone feels they could have done anything different,then by all means get off your asses,and become a delegate yourselves the next time around.

    This constant bickering amongst ourselves lately is stupid,and un-productive.
    I cannot help but wonder if we have been infiltrated by naysayers from other campaigns.

    Don't be fooled;This is a long term project.If you don't have the temperment,and patience for this kind of movement,then spare yourself,and move on.
    Learn to think long term.
    Peace

    I am not bickering. I do not even have an opinion on whether they did the right thing. I am just pointing out that we did lose something. Perhaps we gained more than we lost...I await the explanation from the MA delegates.

  11. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by SLSteven View Post
    I am not bickering. I do not even have an opinion on whether they did the right thing. I am just pointing out that we did lose something. Perhaps we gained more than we lost...I await the explanation from the MA delegates.
    Not pointing a finger at you,forgive my poor writing skills
    I actually agree with you here,just not the delegate count,witch the G.O.P made a moot point.

    I am just getting worried about all the divisiveness i have seen lately.
    Everyone attacking everyone
    " Be sure to get your very own Orgoonian™ Action Figure while supplies last."
    Ex Gladio Libertas
    Bend meetup video
    YouTube - Ron Paul rally in Bend, Oregon
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCVo1...eature=related



    All your delegates are belong to us!

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit of '76
    Drew Ivers and Debbie Hopper were the "delegate coordinator" for Ron Paul. I was not on the conference call, but in Minnesota they never once suggested we should vote for McCain.

    They told us to be respectful rather than disruptive and to work the press with a positive message about what we want to accomplish rather than just trashing McCain.

    They never told us who to vote for.

    Lew Moore was hired by the RNC to keep the peace between RP delegates and the RNC. I spoke with him personally when that kid from Massachusetts (Cambridge Chris, they called him) was trying to get everyone from every state to vote for McCain in exchange for "some respect" from the RNC.

    Even at that point, Lew did not advise us to vote for McCain. He told us to work with our state parties and do what was best for us within our own delegations.


    You can reprint this in that thread, if you'd like.
    Thank you, I will.

  13. #72

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    I am skeptical about negotiating with the RNC people. Apparently the Republican establishment valued the Paul MA delegate votes more than the "respect" that they gave in exchange. Only they would know the true value of the "respect."
    Last edited by SLSteven; 09-06-2008 at 04:06 PM.

  14. #73

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    I understand everyone's anger but sometimes it's better in the long run to work along side your enemy to gain an advantage later on. Sometimes you'll lose a battle here and there but the most important thing is to win the war at the end.

    While I, personally, would have fought long and hard to cast my vote for Ron Paul I understand what they were trying to accomplish and that is to ally themselves with the enemy, temporarily, so that they could keep their positions so they will be in better positions in the future for a takeover.

    Remember, we allied ourselves with Stalin to defeat Hitler.

    Cut them some slack.

    - ML

  15. #74

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    If the plan of the C4L is to become involved in the GOP to reform it- then it will mean playing ball with the GOP. It will mean bending principles. Ron Paul is an exception- they have tried to oust him whenever they can.

    Entering politics means compromising to make progress. We can point to Paul as a paragon of integrity- but has he ever gotten a bill signed into law? If you sleep with pigs its hard to stay clean. Reforming the GOP will be a dirty game.

    I personally think we need to educate voters directly and circumvent the party system. I don't want to bend my principles- and I think that is what Dr. Paul does by example. If the C4L can transform these backstabbing liars in the GOP- more power to them. I won't bad mouth them or try to undermine what they do. What I cannot do, however, is get involved in an organization that will have to do things like this to see progress. I don't have the stomach for it.

    What is the official C4L response to this tactic?
    "Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank...You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the grace of the Eternal God, will rout you out."- Andrew Jackson (The Guy on the 20)

    www.micahnelson.com

  16. #75

    Thumbs down Big multi-post response ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mortikhi View Post
    Hmm, interesting.

    I guess there's nothing more to say other than fuck you, you backstabbers.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by Sematary View Post
    I'm pissed. Disappointed doesn't even BEGIN to describe what I feel about Paul supporters just giving up. So much for the revolution, huh?
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by RCA View Post
    Maybe they weren't Ron Paul supporters.
    +100

    Quote Originally Posted by josh24601 View Post
    Goodwill and 50 cents buys you a newspaper.

    That was a stupid thing to do.
    hehe...

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Paul View Post
    Here's the update on what happened in Nevada with each deleagtes explanation as to why they voted for McCain:


    Chris Dyer explains his vote for McCain:

    Quote:
    Paul delegates hand the party a unanimous vote, go to Rage Against the Machine

    Ron Paul delegate Chris Dyer told me tonight the state party gave the Paul delegates two choices, vote for John McCain or abstain.

    "Party asked nicely for a unanimous vote, we said yes," said Paul delegate Chris Dyer. "They got what they wanted. We got to see Rage (Against the Machine). Everyone wins."

    And so the great delegate fight finally comes to an end.
    I can't believe you were BOUGHT OFF by a stupid concert.
    You disgust me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Paul View Post
    Carl Bunce explains his vote for McCain:
    Quote:
    We were censored and pressured. Period! We have been followed and surrounded by security everywhere we go in MN. We got treated as children the entire time by NV GOP leadership. . We gave the NV GOP their 34 delegates.

    Nick Vanderpool (Delegate Organizer) earned our votes or I should say our absense of principles because he talked to us like an adult and not like a spoiled child stomping his feet. He has my respect and NV will not suffer the disfavor of the RNC overlords now. We may be able save our party with much work and talking outloud instead of secret whispers in back rooms.

    That is the last olive branch! If we (Freedom Minded Republicans) do not receive any respect starting tomorrow, they (Anyone but Freedom Minded Republicans) will all have a hard time doing anything politically in NV without us on their ass on every issue.

    We have learned their game and their tactics. We have out-played them at every step of the way. But when the rules change on a moments notice then we can not play anymore. We must improvise! As we have. NV will have its day in the future. No one is giving up! This is a rigged game and we see that clearer the ever now!

    We are still processing all the happenings of this week. We have a lot of intel on the corruption seeded at the national level.

    Meeting with other state delegations gave us so much info on other tactics we have not seen yet in NV.

    More to come...

    Carl Bunce


    You are dumbass. You acknowledge that the party doesn't
    play fair, yet you think they will not play fair with you cause
    they managed to trick you to submitting to them?

    You poor sap!

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Paul View Post
    Arden Osborne explains his vote for McCain:

    Quote:I was only asked 'how I would vote' there never was a real vote. no ballot.

    My response when asked was that since I had no candidate in the race (there
    was only one nominee) I said I would abstain. When I was approached again
    and told that I would be the only one keeping the vote from being unanimous,
    we then discussed allowing an alternate to vote in my place since I had no
    candidate, but that was that - there was no actual vote.

    What anyone who is not here may not understand is that this convention was
    a staged show. There was nothing to gain by being disrupting the
    coronation...There was everything to gain for the future of our movement by
    abstaining. Our win was our presence, our loss would have been throwing that
    win away by closing the door to the party.

    It's easy to criticize from the sidelines, but unless you were here to see
    that there was nothing that could have been done that would even be
    perceived as a good sign of protest (the mikes were guarded) - then you
    can't really see the whole picture.
    Our entire political system is a "stage show" ... I'm glad
    it took sending you the the RNC to wake you up.

    You too are a poor sap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Paul View Post
    Lisa Marie Johnson explains her vote for McCain

    Quote:
    We did what was right so we could "fight for another day" as Arden said. Yes, Arden was going to abstain. Carl and Chris considered it too. So did I when I finally was seated.

    I repeat, there was no official voting for Ron Paul. Some state leaders were just nice enough to allow their people to have that spoken and then took them away for the final count. The didn't show that on tv. Only Alaska, VP Palin's state, was allowed to mysteriously have their RP votes on the final tally. Same thing for Romney. I know because I stayed till the final gavel.

    Abstaining would have been pissing on the party just to make a point rather than admitting the loss we all knew we had days if not weeks earlier. Where would that get us?

    They had to come to us, finally, and basically admit we could make them look bad to be spitefull or let them look good to the RNC and earn some respect in a graceful defeat. I know it hurts. Believe me or don't, but it's been the worst birthday I've ever had. But we still learned a lot and if you throw us aside, you throw that knowledge aside also.

    In the end, we know, however difficult it was last night and will be for some time, we did what we know in our hearts to be good for the future of our movement. That is a vote for Ron Paul. Pissing away everyone's hard work would have been the end of all of us. That's the reality.

    You may say it doesn't matter because I didn't vote for him. But the fact is he wasn't nominated. You can't vote for someone who isn't nominated. I understand your anger. I'd probably feel the same if I wasn't there. It didn't change the nomination. From here on out, those of us who act respectable will be treated with respect. We've earned that, all of us, but it was the delegates who you elected, who delivered it to you, even though you can't see that now.

    What kind of advocates for liberty are they if they cannot make a simple argument or negotiate an agreement to abstain or vote for Paul on the first ballot when it would be entirely symbolic and do no harm at all.
    I wish you many horrible birthdays you traitor!

    what a bunch of pussies ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Davidson View Post
    Hello all,

    First I'd like to thank all the supporters who came out to the caucuses across Massachusetts and especially in the eigth district (Boston) where we swept our caucuses. If every RP supporter across the nation had committed to this level, I think we could have had enough stealth RP delegates to get this nomination.

    My story is here for all to judge. I'm just going to give the facts here. I think you can judge for yourself about how we handled this. There is a lot of speculation also, which I may post later after verified.

    We came into town Monday night and were invited to a GOP reception which was followed by a RP reception across town. At the GOP reception we gathered near a replica of air force one along with many RP delegates from other states. We decided to start a Ron Paul chant while streaming out to ruffle some feathers. It worked .

    We arrived at the RP reception with a plan hatched by Chris Blanc, who was quoted above and Todd Fay, who was Chris's alternate. We got in the reception and listened to Dr. Paul. After the speech we had a supporter who was going to go along with the plan take the mic and announce a meeting outside the hall. Drew Ivers took the mic not long after this and started to announce that he wanted people to stick around and listen to him and Jesse Benton.

    The purpose of our meeting in the courtyard was to plan to nominate RP for president, which the campaign had given up on for a long time. We understood the rules of the roll call vote, which stated that RP could not be nominated or placed on the ballot of choices for the roll call vote for all states without the support of the majority of five delegations. We identified the ten smallest delegations and assigned delegates from across the country to approach delegates from these delegations with petitions for placing RP on the ballot. This was understood to be a Hail Mary, but we were not going to give up. We went nuts on the floor on Tuesday trying to get these petitions signed.

    The people from the WA delegation were actually able to get the support of the majority of the virgin islands delegation, but our luck stopped there.

    We were not able to get RP placed on the ballot for all states. Some states were legally required to report the votes of RP supporters who were legally bound to RP, but most states were not. In Massachusetts, most of us were bound by state law to McCain. We were only given the option of McCain or abstain.

    When asked about my vote by my party chairman, I was given the option of McCain or abstain. Knowing there would be legal issues, I told him I was to abstain. Every Ron Paul delegate from Massachusetts initially voted to abstain. This started a shitstorm on the floor behind the wolf blitzer tent. We told them we wanted RP to speak on and have full floor access which he had been denied by the convention. They called in a Rep from the McCain campaign who told us that we could make a deal. If we got all the delegates for RP from all states united to vote for McCain, we could potentially have recognition for RP from the stage (maybe not RP but perhaps a grassroots supporter). We called as many delegates from other states to meet, and we decided not to take the deal. The reason for this was that we were unable to contact anyone from the campaign to advise us or to tell us that RP was willing to speak. No one answered their phones... I personally told everyone that we had to make the decision without the campaign (since I don't trust them anyway), but this was not the majority opinion.

    During the meeting we were surrounded by a massive goon squad with ear pieces listening and typing everything we said. We had the sergeant at arms harassing our people trying to steal our list of RP delegates from all states. We had interns surrounding us with fake homemade signs to hide us from the media. We broke the meeting with the resolution to negotiate on the state level.

    I can't speak for what happened in other states, but I do not expect anyone was given tickets to the rage concert... Many people had tickets already and wanted to go instead of being on the floor or anywhere near the propaganda festival.

    For our state, we worked out a deal which was by no means unanimous. There was much dissent, but I think most of the people who did not agree are now realizing that we did the best we could do. Most of us gave our votes to alternates rather than abstaining.

    Now for my interpretation:

    To us, eight abstentions which would likely not have been reported was of less value than cooperation with the party in helping to get a meetup director on the State Committee, getting RP supporters on town commitees and formally welcoming us into the party. This puts us in a position to elect more RP supporters to the state committee for the upcoming election cycle, and if we fully activate all our supporters in the state we can own this committee, period. In the next presidential elections, Massachusetts can have 100% delegates for Ron Paul or a similar candidate without a doubt in my mind. Had we not made this deal, the party would have likely opposed us illegally every step of the way. We have an agreement in writing from our state party granting us several things that have already and will bring us much closer to our goals in Massachusetts. To get this, we worked with people in the party who supported Pat Buchanan in prior presidential runs, and a man on the national platform committee who struck a clause in support of the North American Union on our insistence. These party people are extremely happy. I believe they're happy not because of the unanimous vote as much as the prospect of having us in the party in the future.

    Other delegates have voiced their approval of this deal, having achieved nothing in their states except getting totally ostracized. You can decide what you think for yourself though.
    First of all I should say that is very brave and respectable
    of you to come and post this yourself. But for your naive
    take on the whole aspect of how you were fooled into giving
    them all they wanted in the childish hope that they'll let
    you play in their playpen in the future i have to say you
    are a fucking moron!

    The party hasn't played fair with us ever. What makes you
    think they are about to now or in the future? They like it
    their way. They are getting it done their way. So why bother
    with you in the future?

    And did I hear you right? In the "next presidential election"
    you will have 100% Ron Paul delegates? You are a fool.

    You know, I bet you guys also stuck a deal to vote for McCain
    in Nov too. I wouldn't doubt that most of you would anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Warrior View Post
    "The system is corrupt, beyond redemption, and is not worthy of my support!"
    +1000


    Quote Originally Posted by musicmax View Post
    What a dickless asshole. As a delegate you are REPRESENTING HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN YOUR STATE WHO CAST VOTES. And you betray them for a fucking CONCERT?
    +1776

  17. #76

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    I can't believe you were BOUGHT OFF by a stupid concert.
    You disgust me!
    I can only hope that we're missing a big part of this equation. A concert? I can't even imagine.
    When all else fails,
    there's always
    www.escapeartist.com

  18. #77

    Default Reply to Spirit of '76

    Quote Originally Posted by MsDoodahs View Post
    Originally Posted by Spirit of '76
    Drew Ivers and Debbie Hopper were the "delegate coordinator" for Ron Paul. I was not on the conference call, but in Minnesota they never once suggested we should vote for McCain.

    They told us to be respectful rather than disruptive and to work the press with a positive message about what we want to accomplish rather than just trashing McCain.

    They never told us who to vote for.

    Lew Moore was hired by the RNC to keep the peace between RP delegates and the RNC. I spoke with him personally when that kid from Massachusetts (Cambridge Chris, they called him) was trying to get everyone from every state to vote for McCain in exchange for "some respect" from the RNC.

    Even at that point, Lew did not advise us to vote for McCain. He told us to work with our state parties and do what was best for us within our own delegations.


    You can reprint this in that thread, if you'd like.
    This is all correct. My comments referred to the conference call which '76 apparently missed. Regarding Ivers, Hopper and Moore, not one of them told the delegates they must vote for someone. I was using the word 'told' in my previous post to describe his response to a question. It was simply encouraged by Ivers that delegates cast their votes for McCain, or 'better yet', find an alternate who would. This would supposedly win us much good will and favor in the future, would win some neocons over to our side or something. (We'll see, I guess.) I can only speculate about what was done between the delegates at the convention, of course more will be coming out soon.

    Thinking back, Moore remained totally silent, not agreeing or protesting. Actually, he himself was a guest to the call and may have left by that time. He was simply there to explain his new role with the RNC for the convention and answer anyone's questions, which he did in his typically straightforward manner.

    Hopper, on the other hand, agreed with Ivers, at least on doing whatever we can to ensure good will and not cause any 'trouble'. She seemed like her main concern was promoting campaign for liberty and assuring that the delegates were not making fools of themselves, or embarrassing the CFL.

    One thing I thought odd, not just on this call but even before, even regarding our state convention, was the idea that we shouldn't 'cause trouble', both coming from our leadership and from the GOP.

    However, it wasn't until this conference call that I ever found this offensive. Even Ron Paul himself was on the call urging people to not make waves and 'cause trouble'. Ron Paul was particularly concerned about the way we'd be treated by police, security and the GOP. Ivers correctly said this wasn't our venue, and that we should fight our battles elsewhere.

    What offended me was the underlying assumption that seemed to be coming from everyone that the only method of resistance and advancing our goals we peons could conceive of was rabble rousing and acting like animals. Considering the painstaking care which our delegates in every county and state convention learned the rules and stuck to them, it was somewhat of an insult to suggest we could only fight back by causing trouble, or as Spirit of '76 put it, 'being disruptive' or 'trashing McCain'.

    Also, it's my belief that the Oklahoma delegate mentioned in another post whose vote wasn't counted in the official tally, who along with his wife (an alternate) ripped of their RNC badges, I'm pretty sure he's the one who asked the original question on the conference call regarding what to do if Ron Paul isn't on the ballot. He told Ivers even if he did want to ask an alternate to vote for him, his alternate was his wife and she certainly wouldn't.

  19. #78

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    Let me get this straight, you guys fight all year long to get to the Convention only to kowtow and kiss the corrupt ring of party bosses???

    Anyone bowing down to the powers that be and voting for McCain should fall on their collective sword now...that's the only way to save your honor to me. Cowards!

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  21. #80
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    Question: is this problem limited to the Massachusetts delegation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by free.alive View Post
    I do know that the head of the North Dakota RP delegation was also either a chair of or at least on one of the committees, I think the rules committee.

    He was in a strong position to engineer a vote for McCain.

    More likely, however, it was Drew Ivers. Drew Ivers was the Ron Paul national delegation leader, appointed by the Campaign for Liberty and maybe Ron Paul himself.

    I was on a conference call a week or so before the convention. Debbie Hopper and Drew Ivers were hosing it, and Lew Moore was a guest. The call was supposed to be for delegates only, but I secretly listened in with a delegate I know. When another delegate asked Ivers what he should do since Ron Paul isn't a choice on the ballot, Drew Ivers told him to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would.

    I'll repeat that: Drew Ivers told Ron Paul delegates to either vote for McCain or to find an alternate who would!

    Moore and Hopper agreed, although all three said they couldn't and wouldn't 'tell' anyone how to vote. Nevermind their roles and influence.

    I was incensed. I tried to rationalize it and ended up just internalizing my disappointment since I knew we had at least 250 delegates and alternates, split roughly 50/50. That meant we should get Ron Paul maybe 10% of the vote after considering the forced abstentions resulting from bound delegates.

    But no, the conciliatory message was made with principle left in the mud.

    We must start preparing for the division of our movement in two ways -

    Dominionism vs. Secularism

    Pragmatism vs. Principle

    Of course, you could reword the last one, invertebrates vs. vertebrates and I'd be fine with that.

    Ron Paul rarely, if at all (considering is lonely voting record) compromises himself, at least in Congress and in his rhetoric.

    The Real Politics Training School was a balls-to-the-wall class and motivational seminar on how and why NOT to compromise - ever - with our issues. Steadfast ruthlessness in defense of Liberty, forget mere extremism, was the message; how to eliminate the pragmatists was the lesson.

    We shouldn't be surprised at the choices of the NV delegates - puppy-dog compromise was always present in their negotiations, or so it seemed in conversation with them and their helping hand. That's definitely not intended to take away from the hard work and fighting they did, but to put their compromise (which was really just surrender) in perspective.

    The Massachusetts delegates are on their way to being 'digested' by the party and, while they're still our allies and even patriots today, they are at an increased risk of opposing Liberty in the coming years.

    There is most of what I know, plus my two cents.

    Quote Originally Posted by free.alive View Post
    This is all correct. My comments referred to the conference call which '76 apparently missed. Regarding Ivers, Hopper and Moore, not one of them told the delegates they must vote for someone. I was using the word 'told' in my previous post to describe his response to a question. It was simply encouraged by Ivers that delegates cast their votes for McCain, or 'better yet', find an alternate who would. This would supposedly win us much good will and favor in the future, would win some neocons over to our side or something. (We'll see, I guess.) I can only speculate about what was done between the delegates at the convention, of course more will be coming out soon.

    Thinking back, Moore remained totally silent, not agreeing or protesting. Actually, he himself was a guest to the call and may have left by that time. He was simply there to explain his new role with the RNC for the convention and answer anyone's questions, which he did in his typically straightforward manner.

    Hopper, on the other hand, agreed with Ivers, at least on doing whatever we can to ensure good will and not cause any 'trouble'. She seemed like her main concern was promoting campaign for liberty and assuring that the delegates were not making fools of themselves, or embarrassing the CFL.

    One thing I thought odd, not just on this call but even before, even regarding our state convention, was the idea that we shouldn't 'cause trouble', both coming from our leadership and from the GOP.

    However, it wasn't until this conference call that I ever found this offensive. Even Ron Paul himself was on the call urging people to not make waves and 'cause trouble'. Ron Paul was particularly concerned about the way we'd be treated by police, security and the GOP. Ivers correctly said this wasn't our venue, and that we should fight our battles elsewhere.

    What offended me was the underlying assumption that seemed to be coming from everyone that the only method of resistance and advancing our goals we peons could conceive of was rabble rousing and acting like animals. Considering the painstaking care which our delegates in every county and state convention learned the rules and stuck to them, it was somewhat of an insult to suggest we could only fight back by causing trouble, or as Spirit of '76 put it, 'being disruptive' or 'trashing McCain'.

    Also, it's my belief that the Oklahoma delegate mentioned in another post whose vote wasn't counted in the official tally, who along with his wife (an alternate) ripped of their RNC badges, I'm pretty sure he's the one who asked the original question on the conference call regarding what to do if Ron Paul isn't on the ballot. He told Ivers even if he did want to ask an alternate to vote for him, his alternate was his wife and she certainly wouldn't.
    Side by side to make it easy to look for shifts in tone.

  23. #82

    Default Not just MA

    Quote Originally Posted by MsDoodahs View Post
    Question: is this problem limited to the Massachusetts delegation?
    Man oh man, I would not want the responsibility of deciding between playing nice in the hopes of bettering relations with the crooked party or sticking to my guns and abstaining. From the past actions of the NRP it probably did you no good at all to vote for John. You gave them what they wanted, when what they really deserved was a kick in the behind. We RPers are used to being shunned, denigrated, and mocked. So what if in the future they look down their noses and close a door in your face. You've been there, and they've done that. If you think that they will return the favor and follow the rules from here on out I feel you are going to be sorely disappointed. I can see that none of you are named Dave.

    It must of been scarey to have the "KGB" watching your every move and I commend all of you for braving the lion in his own den

    I only have good things to say about Debbie Hopper. She championed for liberty more than once and has the been the most visible campaign member working her butt off. I loved it when she challenged the executive head of the Missouri Republican Party and asked for the actual vote count and of course she was stalled and with head unbowed pushed on for answers.

    MA is not the only state with snakes crawling around within the party. I have watched and documented a lot of county, and state, and now the national party break election laws and party rules to gain their advantage.

    Where is St. Patrick when you need him?
    "And there's a greater burden on you than the average person because you know better. So you have an obligation to spread this message, others don't know any better so they don't have this obligation. You have, you are now responsible because you have the message, you know what is right, you know what has to be done, and you know that it will be dependant on you to do it." ......Ron Paul

  24. #83
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    free.alive, thanks for mentioning that Ron was on the call in your second post.

    I was not on the call, and maybe I'm wrong but I'm going to put it out there for consideration.

    You said that Ron seemed concerned about how the delegates might be treated, and that you took from that that he thought "the only method of resistance and advancing our goals we peons could conceive of was rabble rousing and acting like animals."

    I respectfully ask that you consider that Dr. Paul and the others were not concerned about how you guys would act but were very concerned about how the police, security and the GOP would RE act.

    I don't think Ron doubted his delegates. I think he was concerned as to how his delegates would be treated by police, security, and the GOP when faced with a challenge - and at this point, even the mere presence of his delegates was a challenge.

    MsD

  25. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperpete1 View Post
    Man oh man, I would not want the responsibility of deciding between playing nice in the hopes of bettering relations with the crooked party or sticking to my guns and abstaining. From the past actions of the NRP it probably did you no good at all to vote for John. You gave them what they wanted, when what they really deserved was a kick in the behind. We RPers are used to being shunned, denigrated, and mocked. So what if in the future they look down their noses and close a door in your face. You've been there, and they've done that. If you think that they will return the favor and follow the rules from here on out I feel you are going to be sorely disappointed. I can see that none of you are named Dave.

    It must of been scarey to have the "KGB" watching your every move and I commend all of you for braving the lion in his own den

    I only have good things to say about Debbie Hopper. She championed for liberty more than once and has the been the most visible campaign member working her butt off. I loved it when she challenged the executive head of the Missouri Republican Party and asked for the actual vote count and of course she was stalled and with head unbowed pushed on for answers.

    MA is not the only state with snakes crawling around within the party. I have watched and documented a lot of county, and state, and now the national party break election laws and party rules to gain their advantage.

    Where is St. Patrick when you need him?
    After seeing the shit pulled here in Texas, it's obvious that the machine doesn't even bother to follow its own rules.

    I can see Ron not wanting any of our people to be attacked (which I feared might happen just because they were there and breathing - they were sure 'nuf in the den).

    Had any RP supporter been attacked by the goon squads, the media would have been deployed to spin it the GOPs way - made up bullshit about the person, interviews with party hacks telling lies on camera: "oh, that Ron Paul supporter did ________ and the police did the right thing by tazering/beating/arresting/whatevering him." And you guys know that all the sheep would eat that shit right up. Every GOPer in the whole damn country would have been ready to slam the door in our faces when CFL launches and we start the effort to do this peacefully neighborhood by neighborhood.

    It was a tough call for the delegates: vote McCain or abstain, blech. I read those posts where they were explaining their choices. I also want to commend them for working hard to get to the convention and representing Dr. Paul there, because as I said, just being there was a challenge to the GOP machine.

    I will believe that each one made whatever choices they felt were best. It was no easy task and I won't attack them because I was not in their shoes and can't say that faced with the same options, I might not have done the same thing. (Except the concert thing. That one...uh....no.) As for the rest...y'all tried. I don't trust the machine at all - they will not keep promises, so any carrot they dangled was just that - a carrot.

    I'm just glad it went off without the potential hitch (above). We made it through that. Whew. I'm glad it's over.

  26. #85

    Default

    all i have to say is yall some straight bitches for this

    dont let me catch yall in my hood afterhours pc

  27. #86

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MsDoodahs View Post
    It was a tough call for the delegates: vote McCain or abstain, blech. I read those posts where they were explaining their choices.
    WV had our votes for Ron Paul announced by our state's Republican candidate for governor. Of course, the secretary didn't recognize them and gave all the votes to McCain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit of '76 View Post
    WV had our votes for Ron Paul announced by our state's Republican candidate for governor. Of course, the secretary didn't recognize them and gave all the votes to McCain.
    Is there a legal response that can be launched?

  29. #88

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    I have a feeling they'll count them when/if they release an official tally. They just didn't want anything screwing up good TV.

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    Oh, okay - just part of the big show for the sheep.

  31. #90

    Default

    First, I'm sure that I'm not the only one breathing easier that nothing happened to our delegates--no arrests, no beatings, no taserings or worse. I felt like I held my breath for them during the whole convention.

    Second, I can't say with any certainty that I would not have cracked under pressure, especially if I had felt that my own safety or the safety of my family might have been in jeopardy. I can say with certainty that I would not have believed that I would have anything to gain from the party short of my own personal safety in exchange for my vote.

    I'm afraid that I do not believe for one second that RPers will ever be accepted for who they are, but rather will only be accepted temporarily when they fall in line, and that acceptance will always be provisional and subject to change the very next time there's one of those "fall in line" scenarios.

    And this comes from a former (WAY former) insider--like thirty years ago. Even though I've been absent from the state and local GOP scene for thirty years, I was recently the subject of "dirty tricks" attempting to secure my (active and rabid) support for John McCain. I told them to stuff it and never dial my phone number again until they got back to their Constitutional roots.

    Moral to the story. Once the GOP has your number, they never lose it. It's like the Hotel California.

    You can check-out any time you like, But you can never leave!
    When all else fails,
    there's always
    www.escapeartist.com

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