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  1. #1

    Massachusetts Paul delegates voted for McCain??

    http://www.bostonherald.com/news/nat...17016&srvc=rss

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    In a last-minute show of unity, Bay State Ron Paul supporters decided to throw their votes behind Sen. John McCain last night.

    About a dozen Massachusetts supporters of the Texas Congressman and GOP upstart decided to back McCain only an hour before the delegates began to cast votes for the presidential pick.

    “We decided the best course of action was to give a little to get a lot,” said Chris Blanc, a Cambridge resident who supports Paul. “The Massachusetts GOP really wanted to show unanimous support.”

    Paul, shunned by the Republican convention because he wouldn’t endorse McCain, has been holding daily “counter rallies” in Minnesota where devoted supporters hiss when McCain’s name is uttered.

    Rep. Paul Loscocco (R-Holliston) worked with Paul sympathizers to join the delegation so all 43 delegate votes would go to McCain.

    “He really worked well behind the scenes to come to this agreement,” said McCain delegate Jack Roy.

    McCain will make his acceptance speech tonight surrounded by those supportive delegates on a newly constructed stage. He plans to focus on how he plans to lead the country and highlight the differences between he and Democratic opponent Barack Obama, said Mark Salter, a McCain campaign official who helped write the speech.

    McCain’s wife Cindy will also be speaking, as will Secretary of Homeland Security head Tom Ridge.

    Delegates will also vote to nominate Alaskan Gov. Sarah Palin as the party’s GOP vice presidential pick.
    Can anybody verify this? Seems unlikely and pretty surprising to me.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book



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  3. #2
    What? By the way he says it, it's as if they're going to get something in return. What, an insignia of damnation?

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Zera View Post
    What? By the way he says it, it's as if they're going to get something in return. What, an insignia of damnation?
    If they made a deal with the devil, then they screwed up. I don't care WHAT they think they got in return. RON PAUL would NEVER support that neocon bastard and his supporters who did should be ashamed of themselves. I expected fireworks from the Ron Paul delegates and we got back room deals? I'm disgusted.
    Our rights are not derived from man but exist because we are men.

  5. #4
    musicmax
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Sematary View Post
    RON PAUL would NEVER support that neocon bastard.
    McSame has never been a liberal, therefore he is not a "neocon." Please get your epithets correct.

  6. #5
    Look I'm as pissed as anyone about this but if they have arrangements or deals for something they've worked out, if they feel they've made progress in the party, that's fine. That's politics. We can't control what goes on in Massachusetts and at least in this case they treated the delegates like adults.

    I just wish they let know what was going on. I wish everyone did.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Paul View Post
    Look I'm as pissed as anyone about this but if they have arrangements or deals for something they've worked out, if they feel they've made progress in the party, that's fine. That's politics. We can't control what goes on in Massachusetts and at least in this case they treated the delegates like adults.

    I just wish they let know what was going on. I wish everyone did.
    We CANNOT defeat the GOP by playing THEIR GAME. We need to get big enough to make them play OUR GAME.
    Our rights are not derived from man but exist because we are men.

  8. #7
    I think it would be best to wait,and see what the people representing the Mass.delegation have to say.
    Either way,they are the ones who worked for their positions,and therefore the right to make any deals they saw fit.

    I thought our goal was to influence policy,and change from within.We cannot do that if we are constantly thumbing our nose at the power structure,and then raging that we have no voice.
    As much as i hate to point out the obvious;In this day,and age,sometimes you have to play the game.
    We have a much better chance for success if we can manage to infiltrate,and change hearts,and minds through example.
    " Be sure to get your very own Orgoonian™ Action Figure while supplies last."
    Ex Gladio Libertas
    Bend meetup video
    YouTube - Ron Paul rally in Bend, Oregon
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCVo1...eature=related



    All your delegates are belong to us!

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Orgoonian View Post
    I think it would be best to wait,and see what the people representing the Mass.delegation have to say.
    Either way,they are the ones who worked for their positions,and therefore the right to make any deals they saw fit.

    I thought our goal was to influence policy,and change from within.We cannot do that if we are constantly thumbing our nose at the power structure,and then raging that we have no voice.
    As much as i hate to point out the obvious;In this day,and age,sometimes you have to play the game.
    We have a much better chance for success if we can manage to infiltrate,and change hearts,and minds through example.
    The ONLY deal that would have been acceptable would have been a speech by Dr. Paul at the RNC. At least THEN we would have heard the word CONSTITUTION!!
    Our rights are not derived from man but exist because we are men.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sematary View Post
    The ONLY deal that would have been acceptable would have been a speech by Dr. Paul at the RNC. At least THEN we would have heard the word CONSTITUTION!!
    I hear ya,i really do,and i wish that was the way it played out.
    All i'm saying is that we have a long tough road ahead.We are armed with our ideals,and principals,and we know we are right.Heck,i bet we have a lot more sympathy in the G.O.P than we realize,but we will never get those people on our side if we continue to antagonize them.
    " Be sure to get your very own Orgoonian™ Action Figure while supplies last."
    Ex Gladio Libertas
    Bend meetup video
    YouTube - Ron Paul rally in Bend, Oregon
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCVo1...eature=related



    All your delegates are belong to us!

  12. #10
    Nevadans did the same....


    ...hope they liked the "Rage" show -

    I do think trying to form some sort of alliances is not a bad idea, but who can trust the party at this point?

    I like Gov. Palin in some areas and not others but will not make pull that lever unless their is some sort of attempt to "reach out" by the ticket (of which I know is far fetched). I still cannot get myself to vote for Barr and am lukewarm to Baldwin.

    If nothing else, I'm still writing the good Dr. in and walking away with a clean conscience.

  13. #11
    give a little to get a lot?

    what does that even mean.

    unless getting McCain is a a lot ......

    Ugh.

  14. #12
    Supporting Member
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    this makes what chris dyer told me about being let down by people they thought were on their side make a lot more sense

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by roxic27 View Post
    this makes what chris dyer told me about being let down by people they thought were on their side make a lot more sense
    Yep - but who's Chris dyer?
    Our rights are not derived from man but exist because we are men.

  16. #14

    Making Deals

    Quote Originally Posted by roxic27 View Post
    this makes what chris dyer told me about being let down by people they thought were on their side make a lot more sense
    I have no doubt that Sue Lowden, et al, made some promises or something to the Ron Paul delegates which made it seem reasonable to vote for McCain...then, possibly reneged and this might very well have happened in other states. Seeing what the machine can do and now they can manipulate, I believe all of these steps were very well choreographed to get the desired result and appearance they wanted. Sometimes when you are there, it seems so reasonable...workable, and then bam you realize you feel into it.

  17. #15
    Hmm, interesting.

    I guess there's nothing more to say other than $#@! you, you backstabbers.

  18. #16
    Maybe they weren't Ron Paul supporters.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by RCA View Post
    Maybe they weren't Ron Paul supporters.
    Obviously. They voted for McCain so they were, by definition, McCain supporters.

    I can understand how a delegate would throw in the towel and just abstain. Ron Paul himself had given up on the nomination. The place was a solid mass of cheering weirdos. etc. etc.

    What I can't understand is how someone would go through the trouble of becoming a delegate and then actually vote for McCain. It makes zero sense. They do know Ron Paul's nickname, don't they? Dr. No? What would Dr. No do?

    Yea, I was hoping for triple digits. At the least, I was hoping he would best his "official" pre-convention tally of 21. If you include the no-votes, maybe he did do that.

  21. #18
    Here's the update on what happened in Nevada with each deleagtes explanation as to why they voted for McCain:


    Chris Dyer explains his vote for McCain:

    Quote:
    Paul delegates hand the party a unanimous vote, go to Rage Against the Machine

    Ron Paul delegate Chris Dyer told me tonight the state party gave the Paul delegates two choices, vote for John McCain or abstain.

    "Party asked nicely for a unanimous vote, we said yes," said Paul delegate Chris Dyer. "They got what they wanted. We got to see Rage (Against the Machine). Everyone wins."

    And so the great delegate fight finally comes to an end.

    Carl Bunce explains his vote for McCain:
    Quote:
    We were censored and pressured. Period! We have been followed and surrounded by security everywhere we go in MN. We got treated as children the entire time by NV GOP leadership. . We gave the NV GOP their 34 delegates.

    Nick Vanderpool (Delegate Organizer) earned our votes or I should say our absense of principles because he talked to us like an adult and not like a spoiled child stomping his feet. He has my respect and NV will not suffer the disfavor of the RNC overlords now. We may be able save our party with much work and talking outloud instead of secret whispers in back rooms.

    That is the last olive branch! If we (Freedom Minded Republicans) do not receive any respect starting tomorrow, they (Anyone but Freedom Minded Republicans) will all have a hard time doing anything politically in NV without us on their ass on every issue.

    We have learned their game and their tactics. We have out-played them at every step of the way. But when the rules change on a moments notice then we can not play anymore. We must improvise! As we have. NV will have its day in the future. No one is giving up! This is a rigged game and we see that clearer the ever now!

    We are still processing all the happenings of this week. We have a lot of intel on the corruption seeded at the national level.

    Meeting with other state delegations gave us so much info on other tactics we have not seen yet in NV.

    More to come...

    Carl Bunce

    Arden Osborne explains his vote for McCain:

    Quote:I was only asked 'how I would vote' there never was a real vote. no ballot.

    My response when asked was that since I had no candidate in the race (there
    was only one nominee) I said I would abstain. When I was approached again
    and told that I would be the only one keeping the vote from being unanimous,
    we then discussed allowing an alternate to vote in my place since I had no
    candidate, but that was that - there was no actual vote.

    What anyone who is not here may not understand is that this convention was
    a staged show. There was nothing to gain by being disrupting the
    coronation...There was everything to gain for the future of our movement by
    abstaining. Our win was our presence, our loss would have been throwing that
    win away by closing the door to the party.

    It's easy to criticize from the sidelines, but unless you were here to see
    that there was nothing that could have been done that would even be
    perceived as a good sign of protest (the mikes were guarded) - then you
    can't really see the whole picture.


    Lisa Marie Johnson explains her vote for McCain

    Quote:
    We did what was right so we could "fight for another day" as Arden said. Yes, Arden was going to abstain. Carl and Chris considered it too. So did I when I finally was seated.

    I repeat, there was no official voting for Ron Paul. Some state leaders were just nice enough to allow their people to have that spoken and then took them away for the final count. The didn't show that on tv. Only Alaska, VP Palin's state, was allowed to mysteriously have their RP votes on the final tally. Same thing for Romney. I know because I stayed till the final gavel.

    Abstaining would have been pissing on the party just to make a point rather than admitting the loss we all knew we had days if not weeks earlier. Where would that get us?

    They had to come to us, finally, and basically admit we could make them look bad to be spitefull or let them look good to the RNC and earn some respect in a graceful defeat. I know it hurts. Believe me or don't, but it's been the worst birthday I've ever had. But we still learned a lot and if you throw us aside, you throw that knowledge aside also.

    In the end, we know, however difficult it was last night and will be for some time, we did what we know in our hearts to be good for the future of our movement. That is a vote for Ron Paul. Pissing away everyone's hard work would have been the end of all of us. That's the reality.

    You may say it doesn't matter because I didn't vote for him. But the fact is he wasn't nominated. You can't vote for someone who isn't nominated. I understand your anger. I'd probably feel the same if I wasn't there. It didn't change the nomination. From here on out, those of us who act respectable will be treated with respect. We've earned that, all of us, but it was the delegates who you elected, who delivered it to you, even though you can't see that now.

    What kind of advocates for liberty are they if they cannot make a simple argument or negotiate an agreement to abstain or vote for Paul on the first ballot when it would be entirely symbolic and do no harm at all.

  22. #19
    Thanks for the post, Badger. I'm sure it must have been a tough situation for the delegates. Based on what I read there, we really should be even more grateful that some states (Washington, Oregon, West Virginia, Alaska) actually mentioned their Ron Paul votes.

  23. #20
    musicmax
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Paul View Post
    Chris Dyer explains his vote for McCain:

    Quote:
    Paul delegates hand the party a unanimous vote, go to Rage Against the Machine

    Ron Paul delegate Chris Dyer told me tonight the state party gave the Paul delegates two choices, vote for John McCain or abstain.

    "Party asked nicely for a unanimous vote, we said yes," said Paul delegate Chris Dyer. "They got what they wanted. We got to see Rage (Against the Machine). Everyone wins."
    What a dickless $#@!. As a delegate you are REPRESENTING HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN YOUR STATE WHO CAST VOTES. And you betray them for a $#@!ing CONCERT?

  24. #21
    If the situation is true............I may have to find another candidate or liberty group to support. No sense working myself up and stressing myself to get people to vote for freedom candidates when the so called leaders are back stabbing us at every turn

  25. #22
    Giving a little.....

    There's no way McCain loses the nomination, that makes the RP delegates from Mass. decision nothing more than a gesture of goodwill. They...WE...lose nothing!!
    Can't get littlier then that.

    Gain alot....If some establishment delegates are swayed just a little by these token gestures and listened to RP delegates on a personal level, remember these people share many of the same views we do, they just don't see it yet, when the crap hits the fan during the next 4 years, our people already involved in the process will be poised to gain.

    Ron Paul has said he's chosen to work within the Republican party and has urged his followers to spread the message of freedom and liberty in the way they choose. Why can't you allow these people their opportunity to do that? You think they've spent all this time, effort and $$$ to abandon the cause?

    Put down the ego a little and consider that your way may not be the only way. Trust your fellow patriots..

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by trapfive View Post
    Giving a little.....

    There's no way McCain loses the nomination, that makes the RP delegates from Mass. decision nothing more than a gesture of goodwill. They...WE...lose nothing!!
    Can't get littlier then that.
    We lose the increased attention to our movement and credibility that would have come with a bigger delegate count.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Paul View Post
    Here's the update on what happened in Nevada with each deleagtes explanation as to why they voted for McCain:


    Chris Dyer explains his vote for McCain:

    Quote:
    Paul delegates hand the party a unanimous vote, go to Rage Against the Machine

    Ron Paul delegate Chris Dyer told me tonight the state party gave the Paul delegates two choices, vote for John McCain or abstain.

    "Party asked nicely for a unanimous vote, we said yes," said Paul delegate Chris Dyer. "They got what they wanted. We got to see Rage (Against the Machine). Everyone wins."

    And so the great delegate fight finally comes to an end.

    Carl Bunce explains his vote for McCain:
    Quote:
    We were censored and pressured. Period! We have been followed and surrounded by security everywhere we go in MN. We got treated as children the entire time by NV GOP leadership. . We gave the NV GOP their 34 delegates.

    Nick Vanderpool (Delegate Organizer) earned our votes or I should say our absense of principles because he talked to us like an adult and not like a spoiled child stomping his feet. He has my respect and NV will not suffer the disfavor of the RNC overlords now. We may be able save our party with much work and talking outloud instead of secret whispers in back rooms.

    That is the last olive branch! If we (Freedom Minded Republicans) do not receive any respect starting tomorrow, they (Anyone but Freedom Minded Republicans) will all have a hard time doing anything politically in NV without us on their ass on every issue.

    We have learned their game and their tactics. We have out-played them at every step of the way. But when the rules change on a moments notice then we can not play anymore. We must improvise! As we have. NV will have its day in the future. No one is giving up! This is a rigged game and we see that clearer the ever now!

    We are still processing all the happenings of this week. We have a lot of intel on the corruption seeded at the national level.

    Meeting with other state delegations gave us so much info on other tactics we have not seen yet in NV.

    More to come...

    Carl Bunce

    Arden Osborne explains his vote for McCain:

    Quote:I was only asked 'how I would vote' there never was a real vote. no ballot.

    My response when asked was that since I had no candidate in the race (there
    was only one nominee) I said I would abstain. When I was approached again
    and told that I would be the only one keeping the vote from being unanimous,
    we then discussed allowing an alternate to vote in my place since I had no
    candidate, but that was that - there was no actual vote.

    What anyone who is not here may not understand is that this convention was
    a staged show. There was nothing to gain by being disrupting the
    coronation...There was everything to gain for the future of our movement by
    abstaining. Our win was our presence, our loss would have been throwing that
    win away by closing the door to the party.

    It's easy to criticize from the sidelines, but unless you were here to see
    that there was nothing that could have been done that would even be
    perceived as a good sign of protest (the mikes were guarded) - then you
    can't really see the whole picture.


    Lisa Marie Johnson explains her vote for McCain

    Quote:
    We did what was right so we could "fight for another day" as Arden said. Yes, Arden was going to abstain. Carl and Chris considered it too. So did I when I finally was seated.

    I repeat, there was no official voting for Ron Paul. Some state leaders were just nice enough to allow their people to have that spoken and then took them away for the final count. The didn't show that on tv. Only Alaska, VP Palin's state, was allowed to mysteriously have their RP votes on the final tally. Same thing for Romney. I know because I stayed till the final gavel.

    Abstaining would have been pissing on the party just to make a point rather than admitting the loss we all knew we had days if not weeks earlier. Where would that get us?

    They had to come to us, finally, and basically admit we could make them look bad to be spitefull or let them look good to the RNC and earn some respect in a graceful defeat. I know it hurts. Believe me or don't, but it's been the worst birthday I've ever had. But we still learned a lot and if you throw us aside, you throw that knowledge aside also.

    In the end, we know, however difficult it was last night and will be for some time, we did what we know in our hearts to be good for the future of our movement. That is a vote for Ron Paul. Pissing away everyone's hard work would have been the end of all of us. That's the reality.

    You may say it doesn't matter because I didn't vote for him. But the fact is he wasn't nominated. You can't vote for someone who isn't nominated. I understand your anger. I'd probably feel the same if I wasn't there. It didn't change the nomination. From here on out, those of us who act respectable will be treated with respect. We've earned that, all of us, but it was the delegates who you elected, who delivered it to you, even though you can't see that now.

    What kind of advocates for liberty are they if they cannot make a simple argument or negotiate an agreement to abstain or vote for Paul on the first ballot when it would be entirely symbolic and do no harm at all.
    this is the same justification republican congressmen give when they vote for bigger government.

    I don't care if they kick you out of your state party. we'll send someone else next time.

    this was poor judgement, do not send these guys as your delegate next time.

    obviously you cannot change a party by joining them and becoming them.
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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by BarryDonegan View Post
    this is the same justification republican congressmen give when they vote for bigger government.

    I don't care if they kick you out of your state party. we'll send someone else next time.

    this was poor judgement, do not send these guys as your delegate next time.

    obviously you cannot change a party by joining them and becoming them.
    You have to play the game. I think they made a decent move. They had more to gain by going with McCain then against him. This will allow us to keep growing within the party instead of being further locked out.

    I don't see this as being similar to the congressmen justifying their big government votes. In those situations their vote actually means something. In this case a vote was nothing more than a symbol, and even if they voted for Paul or abstained, the symbol wasn't going to be heard or effect anything. I think that makes it quite different than your metaphor.

  30. #26
    Someone send Dr. Paul the memo. Give your vote to the majority when it isn't going to make the difference anyway, Doc. Surprised he hasn't figured that one out yet, after all these years.

    Then again, he may continue anyway to vote his principles with integrity and consistency anyway. What foolishness??

    The battle at hand for any state that is either winner-take-all and/or binds delegates by way of primaries is to put an end to that nonsense in your state party constitution or state statutes once and for all, so you're never in that position again. Until then vote your principles anyway. Or abstain if that option doesn't exist.

    Winner take all and primary-bound delegates feeds directly into top down power structure's continued strength; it offers no reward for grassroots activism beyond showing up and pulling the lever in the booth. Unbound delegates selected by conventions is the only way to go if there's to be hope of grassroots telling the brass how it's going to be.

  31. #27
    Chiznaddy
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by KenInMontiMN View Post
    Someone send Dr. Paul the memo. Give your vote to the majority when it isn't going to make the difference anyway, Doc. Surprised he hasn't figured that one out yet, after all these years.

    Then again, he may continue anyway to vote his principles with integrity and consistency anyway. What foolishness??

    The battle at hand for any state that is either winner-take-all and/or binds delegates by way of primaries is to put an end to that nonsense in your state party constitution or state statutes once and for all, so you're never in that position again. Until then vote your principles anyway. Or abstain if that option doesn't exist.

    Winner take all and primary-bound delegates feeds directly into top down power structure's continued strength; it offers no reward for grassroots activism beyond showing up and pulling the lever in the booth. Unbound delegates selected by conventions is the only way to go if there's to be hope of grassroots telling the brass how it's going to be.


    Thank you.

    Paul said himself he could have spoke at the convention (on Colbert), but would have had to sacrifice everything he believed in by supporting their agenda and John McCain.

  32. #28
    This happened in our state district. A couple of moles took over "leadership" of the ron paul voters and threw the election.

    Problems of informal spontenous movements forming I suppose.

  33. #29
    Massachusetts Paul delegates voted for McCain??

    What would have changed if they hadn't?

  34. #30
    I think you delegates ate a $#@! sandwich.

    Die in a fire, the lot of you.

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