"The Humanitarian with the Guillotine", a tool to help bring liberals to our side

[cheapseats]

Originally Posted by cheapseats
Point me to ACTIVE REFUSAL TO COOPERATE.

Exactly. There's nowhere (or very few places) for me to point. The people are not actively refusing to cooperate. Thus, the rulers can rule.

The rulers need at least tacit consent. At least the level of consent that says "I'm going to go along with this, I'm not going to stick my neck out."

You conflate ABSENCE OF ACTIVE REFUSAL with CONSENT. When eviscerating fines &/or incarceration (with all that THAT implies, including Torture & Indefiniteness) are the options to going along, going along does NOT constitute tacit consent.

By your reasoning, rape victims who do fight/resist unto their deaths had TACIT CONSENSUAL SEX.

Good people have enabled evil people throughout history, by asking them to initiate force on their behalf.

Good people have enabled evil people throughout history, and are doing so as I type.

When you say good people ask evil people to initiate force on their behalves, you are myopically referring to TAXES FOR SOCIAL SERVICES. Certainly SOME people wanted/applauded the invasion of Iraq, but I don't think a majority. NOTHING like a majority asked for TARP, and millions of Americans strenuously objected.

Most people in the United States support the idea of there being a nation-state ruling over them.

A little something Anarchists should bear in mind, particularly when election seasons are in full swing.

[helmuth_hubener]

You conflate ABSENCE OF ACTIVE REFUSAL with CONSENT.

It's not actual consent, as in libertarian theory and "the consent of the governed," but it's something. I called it "tacit consent" or cooperation or support. Real consent can make things legitimate, true. It's not that type of consent which I and the quote you objected to were necessarily talking about.

However, there is some actual consent going on as well. Most people support most of the things that the government does. Make a big long list of a thousand things that gov't does, and ask people to mark the ones they think gov't should stop doing. You will not get many marks.

You bring up the Iraq War. Actually, opinion polls at the time showed Americans overwhelmingly supported the war. I remember. It was disgusting. You are right about TARP and the bailouts, opinion polls showed people were overwhelmingly against that, but how against it were they, really? Most voters voted for one of two candidates for President who had been very pro-TARP and pro-bailout. Anyway, it's at least an encouraging sign that the people were against TARP and the bailouts, however half-hearted or short-term-memory that opposition turned out to be.

[cheapseats]

It's not actual consent,

PERIOD.

...but it's something.

It's the COERCED end of Coercion, the EXTORTED end of Extortion, the BULLIED end of Bullying, the ABUSED end of Abuse of Power.

It's the TERRIFIED end of TERRORISM, I do believe.

We ARE tacitly refusing to stand up to them. Considering the potential penalties, COWARDICE is a little harsh...but Cowardice is closer to the truth than Consent.

Fear of getting BADLY-to-reeeeeally-badly hurt is RATIONAL. Doing what it takes to NOT get badly-to-uber-badly hurt is SOMETHING, as you say, but it is not Consent.

The latest back-room "deal" (no consent, no representation, no participation) gave millions of dollars of "relief" to RUM PRODUCERS in Puerto Rico & the U.S. Virgin Islands. I'm sure Rum Producers, Puerto Ricans, Virgin Islanders & an elite few others were onboard with that discriminatory windfall, but "THE GOOD PEOPLE" can hardly be said to have consented.

[helmuth_hubener]

It's the COERCED end of Coercion, the EXTORTED end of Extortion, the BULLIED end of Bullying, the ABUSED end of Abuse of Power.

It's the TERRIFIED end of TERRORISM, I do believe.

Well put. I do agree with all of this. But you and I will keep fighting them, and more and more seem to be joining our ranks all the time. Here's to the day when institutionalized coercion, bullying, abuse, and terrorism end.