Gold may become as cheap as aluminum

[Trance Dance Master]

Once when I was campaigning for Ron Paul and arguing in favor of the gold standard, I came a across a lawyer from Harvard who brought up the argument of aluminum and how technology made a metal once more valuable than gold super cheap and abundant. My only counter argument was to enforce a free market in currencies rather than have the federal reserve note be dictated as legal tender. He asked me to provide evidence of where in the constitution it says that only gold and silver is money, and I have since memorized the phrase "1792 coinage act". I gotta get one of those pocket constitutions like Ron Paul has for when I campaign.

Anyway, here's the article about gold nano particles:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0623105020.htm

And some background about what technology did for aluminum, which was once a precious metal more valuable than gold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumini...and_refinement

[Acala]

The element aluminum was never rare, but the technology for extracting it from the ore was very expensive. Once they figured out how to extract it in quantity on the cheap, the price dropped.

Gold is not abundant on earth no matter what extractive technology you use. In fact, it appears that gold is scarce in the universe at large, according to an article I recently read and posted here.

Now if nuclear fusion becomes cheap and easy enough that gold can be made from lesser elements at reasonable prices, then you will have a crash in gold prices. But I am willing to bet everything I have that none of us will live to see that day. But it might be an issue in the long, long, long term.

[Kade]

Awesome. I'll feel like a king drinking from my Golden Coke Cans.

[OptionsTrader]

He asked me to provide evidence of where in the constitution it says that only gold and silver is money,

Article 1 section 10.

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

[newyearsrevolution08]

+1 for someone who knows facts......

Article 1 section 10.

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

[Dr.3D]

Article 1 section 10.

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

Does that mean if the federal government is not a state, they can do all of those things?

And since the federal government is not a state, they can make something other than gold and silver coin a Tender in Payment of Debts?

[Trance Dance Master]

But I am willing to bet everything I have that none of us will live to see that day. But it might be an issue in the long, long, long term.

Considering that they've already figured out how to extract gold from water, how long would it take for it to become cheap to do so on a mass scale? In a true free market, the profit motive would be there to make it happen.

[OptionsTrader]

Considering that they've already figured out how to extract gold from water, how long would it take for it to become cheap to do so on a mass scale? In a true free market, the profit motive would be there to make it happen.

Do you have any idea of what the incredibly small concentration of Au you are talking about and what kind of relatively large input energy would be required to capture each particle of Au from gold atoms that happen to be in water?

It saddens me to see people on these forums talking about "free energy" devices that are obviously hoaxes if you have a junior high understanding of the laws of thermodynamics, "water powered" cars, and now gold from water?

[Kraig]

Considering that they've already figured out how to extract gold from water, how long would it take for it to become cheap to do so on a mass scale? In a true free market, the profit motive would be there to make it happen.

...there is no way you can extract gold from pure water. You may be able to extract gold minerals from water, but there is still going to be a finite limitation on that. You cannot turn hydrogen and oxygen into gold.

[jonahtrainer]

Does that mean if the federal government is not a state, they can do all of those things?

And since the federal government is not a state, they can make something other than gold and silver coin a Tender in Payment of Debts?

No and No.

Article 1 Section 8 Clause 5 provides that the Federal Govt may 'Coin Money.' This means the actual stamping of the coins from the metal. In addition, it is given the power to set the size and purity of the monetary unit. For example, under the 1792 coinage Act the dollar was defined as 371.25 grains of .999 fine silver.

As Options Trader quoted Article 1 Section 10 Clause 1 it talks about the Legal Tender power. Legal Tender is a Remedy under Tort and Contract causes of action. As it relates to Property it is within the domain of the States. The Constitution does not say that gold and silver MUST be legal tender only that if a State makes anything legal tender it must be gold and silver.

In essence, the US Constitution leaves a Free Market in the Currency market. As Robert Landis (a Harvard trained lawyer) says, "They don't teach this at Harvard."

[Trance Dance Master]

...there is no way you can extract gold from pure water. You may be able to extract gold minerals from water, but there is still going to be a finite limitation on that. You cannot turn hydrogen and oxygen into gold.

You can't find a body of pure water in nature. They all have elements. That's where they found the gold in water and extracted it. We extract electricity from water as well, but from currents. Can we extract gold from water currents as easily and quickly as we can get hydro power?

From the article:

Lead author, CSIRO’s Dr Rob Hough, explains that the particles were discovered in Western Australia. “In the southern areas of the State, groundwater is very salty and acidic. This water dissolves primary gold and re-deposits it as pure gold crystals on fracture surfaces and in open pore spaces,” he says.

“On investigation of these crystals, there appeared to be a dark band across them. However, high magnification imaging showed the band was in fact, a mass of gold nanoparticles and nanoplates. These are identical to those being manufactured in laboratories around the world for their unique properties.”

Indeed, scientists have discovered gold in water. How much is there and how easily can it be extracted? That can't even be measured yet.

[Kraig]

You can't find a body of pure water in nature. They all have elements. That's where they found the gold in water and extracted it. We extract electricity from water as well, but from currents. Can we extract gold from water currents as easily and quickly as we can get hydro power?

From the article:

Lead author, CSIRO’s Dr Rob Hough, explains that the particles were discovered in Western Australia. “In the southern areas of the State, groundwater is very salty and acidic. This water dissolves primary gold and re-deposits it as pure gold crystals on fracture surfaces and in open pore spaces,” he says.

“On investigation of these crystals, there appeared to be a dark band across them. However, high magnification imaging showed the band was in fact, a mass of gold nanoparticles and nanoplates. These are identical to those being manufactured in laboratories around the world for their unique properties.”

Indeed, scientists have discovered gold in water. How much is there and how easily can it be extracted? That can't even be measured yet.

Like I said, finite limitations. Just beacuse you can't yet measure it doesn't mean there isn't one. Obviously you won't be able to take a glass of ocean water and turn it into an equal mass of gold.

[tmosley]

That's like saying that because some sand has gold in it (a la 1849 California Gold Rush)), then it must be in ALL sand.

The only reason that that water has gold in it is because there is a gold vein nearby, and the acidity is such that it can dissolve in it (in VERY low concentrations). Once it comes to the surface, the pH changes, and the gold falls out of solution.

[scooter]

+1 for someone who knows facts......

-1 for not mentioning that Article I, Section 10 addresses the individual states only. It has nothing to do with limiting the federal government to only gold and silver.

[Mister Grieves]

Even aluminum is more valuable than what backs the dollar now- nothing. So I still don't see the downside.

[jonahtrainer]

-1 for not mentioning that Article I, Section 10 addresses the individual states only. It has nothing to do with limiting the federal government to only gold and silver.

-1 to scooter for thinking the federal government has to be limited in regards to legal tender. The federal government must be granted the enumerated power to act as found in Article 1 Section 8. There is nothing in there granting the federal government the power to declare legal tender nor is it an implied power nor is it necessary and proper nor does it affect interstate commerce and even if it did the federal government would still be prohibited because the US Constitution touches that term of the Contract and does not expound on it for the federal government's benefit so the four corners doctrine is clear. The right to declare legal tender is reserved to the States or the People themselves (9th & 10th Amendments).

The US Constitution does not say what must be Legal Tender only that if the States make anything Legal Tender it must be gold and silver.

[acptulsa]

First energy from thin air and now alchemy--turning lead to gold. Neat. What's next? Shall we have a seance and chat with Jefferson and Goldwater?

Kudos to those who hijacked this thread to talk about currencies!

[amy31416]

First energy from thin air and now alchemy--turning lead to gold. Neat. What's next? Shall we have a seance and chat with Jefferson and Goldwater?

Kudos to those who hijacked this thread to talk about currencies!

Yeah, well, you'll be sorry when I find the philosopher's stone and don't have a thread where I can post my great finding!

Now, back to searching. I'm making progress on the holy grail and fountain of youth as well.

[Mister Grieves]

Kudos to those who hijacked this thread to talk about currencies!

Precious metals, including gold, have a direct relative value to all currencies.

[jonahtrainer]

Precious metals, including gold, have a direct relative value to all currencies.

No kidding; go read the first post and it is exactly what the guy was asking about.

[Carole]

Man-made gold?? LOL

This sounds like something I would consider as worthless as cubic zirconia is as a substitute for diamonds.

[acptulsa]

No kidding; go read the first post and it is exactly what the guy was asking about.

I suppose you two have a point. Perhaps I should have said kudos to those who turned this into a substantive discussion.

[scooter]

I suppose you two have a point. Perhaps I should have said kudos to those who turned this into a substantive discussion.

That's more like it. I'm surprised we've taken such a topic and turned it into several pages.

I will say, though, that it wouldn't be all that surprising if they created a man-made form of gold. I mean, the metal doesn't have too many useful properties anyway. I'm one of the few on here who isn't a gold bug, so in my opinion even the real gold is about as useful as a rock wrapped in tin foil.

[rockandrollsouls]

For someone who is supposedly so smart from graduating from that swanky college, he's not too bright. "Matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed." The aluminum was always there. The gold was always there. It's the process of extracting aluminum from the ore that was expensive, not the metal itself. You aren't going to pull gold out of thin air, and if you were to find a way to extract it from some abstract place my bet is it will hardly be enough to be any form of lucrative. I mean, we already mine gold as easily as we possibly could. It's not difficult to obtain. The metal itself is what gives it its value.

He may have gone to Harvard, but he might want to stick to his major. Fact of the matter is he has no clue what he's talking about. Aluminum was never a precious form of metal; it was just difficult to obtain. Gold is precious and never has and never will become less valuable. It has stood the test of time.

[rockandrollsouls]

Even aluminum is more valuable than what backs the dollar now- nothing. So I still don't see the downside.

LOL. Zing. That was good.

[theoakman]

this is one the dumbest threads I've read.

I'm about to get my PhD in chemistry. I also have a degree in Geology.

I'll sum it up for you.

1. You aren't going to create gold. If you did by some sort of fusion, it would cost you a couple billion dollars to make a few ounces.
2. You aren't going to be collecting gold from the sea. The amount of gold you get by panning a river probably does not even return minimum wage.
3. There aren't any major sources of gold to be mined that will affect the above ground supply. If I'm not mistaken, the last gold rush was around 1849, and it wasn't even that impressive.
4. Aluminum makes up around 8% of the earth's crust. So that means, everywhere you walk, roughly 8% of is aluminum. That's why you drink soda out of aluminum and not gold.

[jonahtrainer]

That's more like it. I'm surprised we've taken such a topic and turned it into several pages.

I will say, though, that it wouldn't be all that surprising if they created a man-made form of gold. I mean, the metal doesn't have too many useful properties anyway. I'm one of the few on here who isn't a gold bug, so in my opinion even the real gold is about as useful as a rock wrapped in tin foil.

All commodities are produced because they provide value to humanity. Oil for fuel, wheat and rice for food, steel to build things, etc. Gold is produced because it adds value to humanity; more value than a rock wrapped in tin foil. What value does gold add to humanity? That is a very simple question with a very simple answer. If you cannot answer it then perhaps you should go back to monetary science kindergarten.

[jonahtrainer]

1. You aren't going to create gold. If you did by some sort of fusion, it would cost you a couple billion dollars to make a few ounces.

I heard some scientists were able to turn lead into gold by rearranging electrons or some such quacky idea but it cost about $1 per ounce of finished gold. Is there any validity to such a claim?

[theoakman]

That's more like it. I'm surprised we've taken such a topic and turned it into several pages.

I will say, though, that it wouldn't be all that surprising if they created a man-made form of gold. I mean, the metal doesn't have too many useful properties anyway. I'm one of the few on here who isn't a gold bug, so in my opinion even the real gold is about as useful as a rock wrapped in tin foil.

You do realize that gold is widely used in the industry for electronics, don't you? Oh, and the smaller your electronic devices get, the more they are going to rely on gold.

[acptulsa]

You do realize that gold is widely used in the industry for electronics, don't you? Oh, and the smaller your electronic devices get, the more they are going to rely on gold.

Your dentist, on the other hand, uses little if any of it any more. Though if you were to pay extra I bet he still remembers how to do it...