The Pledge of Allegiance - Socialist Propaganda?

[CountryboyRonPaul]

This is just a bit of easily found but largely ignored information.

"The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855-1931), a Baptist minister, a Christian Socialist, and the cousin of Socialist Utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850-1898). Bellamy's original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8th issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's discovery of America, conceived by James B. Upham.

Bellamy's original Pledge read, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. America"

The pledge was supposed to be quick and to the point. Bellamy designed it to be stated in 15 seconds. He had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity but decided they were too controversial since many people opposed equal rights for women and blacks. Bellamy said that the purpose of the pledge was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue and that the United States supports the flag."

quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

I hear often times on the Christian Right justification for various faith-based platform positions on the basis of the words "One Nation Under God", and the assumption that the laws of the United States have therefore been based in Christianity since the beginning of the nation.

However, the words under god were NOT in the original Pledge of Allegiance, they were later added in 1954. Bellamy's grand-daughter later stated that he would have resented the changes made to his Pledge.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

The goal seems to be similair, however.

The Christian Right of today seems to use these words to try to silence opposition for religiously motivated laws.

While the Far Left Statists of the past used it to try and encourage obediance to the state above all else.

In my opinion obediance to the state can be a virtue, but is very likely to result in abuse of the power granted to them by the people, from those in government. Therefore unquestioning, absolute obediance to the state is inherently dangerous to Liberty, and therefore can be argued inherently "Un-American"

Just thought I'd share that

[James Madison]

I hear often times on the Christian Right justification for various faith-based platform positions on the basis of the words "One Nation Under God", and the assumption that the laws of the United States have therefore been based in Christianity since the beginning of the nation.

However, the words under god were NOT in the original Pledge of Allegiance, they were later added in 1954. Bellamy's grand-daughter later stated that he would have resented the changes made to his Pledge.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

The goal seems to be similair, however.

The Christian Right of today seems to use these words to try to silence opposition for religiously motivated laws.

'In God We Trust' was added to the Pledge and all Federal Reserve Notes in 1954 to show the Soviets that we were a God-fearing nation. I guess to imply God was on our side...so much for that.

[JS4Pat]

This has bothered me for a long time. Why are we pledging allegiance to a "flag" rather than pledging allegiance to the ideals and principles that the flag stands for? I am always very uncomfortable in settings where we do this.

Someone from our local RLC group proposed starting our meetings with the following that we named "The Patriot Pledge":

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic that it creates:
one nation of sovereign states,
under God, with Liberty and Justice for all.

Now there is a pledge that makes me want to stand at attention, cover my heart with my hand and recite with pride!

[Alex Libman]

I thought God was on Hitler's side. 20,000,000 German belt buckles can't be wrong!


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Baldwin reminds me of Hitler before he came to power, and this forum needs to get rid of the theocratic nut-jobs by ostracizing them before they completely ruin Ron Paul's legacy! Sure, he's saying all the right things now, but imagine what his Prohibition, errr, I mean """Constitution""" party would do if they came to power on state level! They won't just stop at outlawing gambling and pornography as their platform is calling for, no sir! We're talking about Christian Taliban here!

[pinkmandy]

Public schools are socialist training grounds. It was the stated purpose by those who were so kind as to push them on Americans, modeled after the Prussian system. The Pledge is a drop in the bucket...

The Pledge itself doesn't bother me personally. It would be better if kids actually learned what "the Republic" and "liberty" actually mean, though.

[Cowlesy]

I am friends with Peter Bellamy, Francis' grandson, and no...there were never any nefarious underpinnings to the pledge of allegiance. The Bellamy's love this country as much as I do.

[Kludge]

**Nationalist propaganda.

As is the flag, seal of the president and useless monuments which litter our nation.

[familydog]

I pledged allegiance to the flag every day in school. Tis why I'm trying to save it

[Alex Libman]

I grew up in 1980s Soviet Union (born 1981, came to USA 1992), and to me as a kid New Jersey felt a whole lot more socialist in comparison... It amazed me how strict the schools were, with students treated like cattle...


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[Off-topic section removed by Moderator]

[youngbuck]

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic that it creates:
one nation of sovereign states,
under God, with Liberty and Justice for all.

That's pretty good! That's what the pledge of allegiance really should be.

[James Madison]

I thought God was on Hitler's side. 20,000,000 German belt buckles can't be wrong!

Ever heard the Bob Dylan song "With God on Our Side"? If He's really on our side He'll stop the next war!

[Anti Federalist]

This was the form of salute during the pledge c. 1920-1940




Draw your own conclusions.

[qaxn]

The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a SOCIALIST and saluted with the NAZI SALUTE but draw your own conclusions (hint: your conclusions should be that the Pledge of Allegiance is a SOCIALIST NAZI PROPAGANDA SOCIALISM GOEBBELS RON PAUL 2008 SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS AYN RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND).

[Kludge]

The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a SOCIALIST and saluted with the NAZI SALUTE but draw your own conclusions (hint: your conclusions should be that the Pledge of Allegiance is a SOCIALIST NAZI PROPAGANDA SOCIALISM GOEBBELS RON PAUL 2008 SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS AYN RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND).

[Anti Federalist]

Marxist-Leninist-Maoist for Ron Paul!

[OptionsTrader]

Ever heard the Bob Dylan song "With God on Our Side"? If He's really on our side He'll stop the next war!

The next war...

Where was He prior and during the previous thousands of wars and other deadly conflicts?

[qaxn]

Trolling purposes, and it has no bearing on the scientifically proven objective fact that the views expressed in this thread are moronic. For reals, did you guys just get out of a public high school history class? Saying a document conveys an idea by virtue of association with its author is simply incorrect, things don't work that way.

[Anti Federalist]

Trolling purposes, and it has no bearing on the scientifically proven objective fact that the views expressed in this thread are moronic. For reals, did you guys just get out of a public high school history class? Saying a document conveys an idea by virtue of association with its author is simply incorrect, things don't work that way.

I'm saying one thing in this thread:

In US public schools, from roughly around 1920 to roughly 1940, the flag was saluted while saying the pledge in a style that has now become commonly recognized as the German NAZI Party salute.

[qaxn]

I'm saying one thing in this thread:

In US public schools, from roughly around 1920 to roughly 1940, the flag was saluted while saying the pledge in a style that has now become commonly recognized as the German NAZI Party salute.

serious post so please read carefully tia: when you present a disconnected provocative idea and then say "draw your own conclusions" or "think about it yourself," you're being dishonest. you're inviting your audience to make the connection even when it isn't true or meaningful, without providing any sense of context or explanation as to why this connection should be made.

[James Madison]

The next war...

Where was He prior and during the previous thousands of wars and other deadly conflicts?

That's the last line of the song. Not my personal opinion. Just an fyi.

[qaxn]

oh as an exciting aside I looked into it and the unsourced statement "Bellamy said that the purpose of the pledge was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue and that the United States supports the flag." on which this topic mostly depends was added by historian and Pledge of Allegiance expert 80.134.163.25.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...oldid=58675974
way to think critically guys

[Anti Federalist]

serious post so please read carefully tia: when you present a disconnected provocative idea and then say "draw your own conclusions" or "think about it yourself," you're being dishonest. you're inviting your audience to make the connection even when it isn't true or meaningful, without providing any sense of context or explanation as to why this connection should be made.

I'm sorry calling attention to authoritarian ideas, gestures and symbols that once had a fairly strong foothold in this country makes you uncomfortable.

I'm even more sorry that your professed ideologies have been responsible for millions of dead all around the world. The NAZIs were pikers compared to your guys when it came to genocide by government.

[qaxn]

I'm sorry calling attention to authoritarian ideas, gestures and symbols that once had a fairly strong foothold in this country makes you uncomfortable.

That doesn't make me uncomfortable. Lies and idiocy make me uncomfortable. What you are saying is that a gesture which predated German Fascism which resembles a gesture which the Nazis later adopted is fascist by association, and that the pledge of allegiance is fascist by association with the thing which is fascist by association. That's bull$#@!.
I don't have a problem with arguments against having oaths of loyalty in schools. There are some very good ones which could be made. But you aren't making those arguments, you're tying together unrelated events and ideas into a web of insanity which only a true initiate of the conspiracy theory could produce.

I'm even more sorry that your professed ideologies have been responsible for millions of dead all around the world. The NAZIs were pikers compared to your guys when it came to genocide by government.

Trolling purposes

[CountryboyRonPaul]

oh as an exciting aside I looked into it and the unsourced statement "Bellamy said that the purpose of the pledge was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue and that the United States supports the flag." on which this topic mostly depends was added by historian and Pledge of Allegiance expert 80.134.163.25.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...oldid=58675974
way to think critically guys

Whether or not the Bellamy quote is true, the Pledge can still be interpreted as encouraging absolute allegiance to the US Govt.

My point in the thread was to point out the danger to liberty in absolute obedience to a state which frankly doesn't seem to have our best interests in mind anymore.

I love my country and the people in it, and for that reason I will be picky about who exactly I am willing to pledge my allegiance to.

PS. I do like the Pledge of Allegiance to the Constitution you guys came up with

[TomtheTinker]

bump

Today is pledge of allegiance day in Rome, NY a small city about 20 minutes west of where I live. The pledge was created in Rome and there was just something on the news today which prompted me to google pledge of allegiance socialist propaganda that of course led me back to good old liberty forest.

[thoughtomator]

My allegiance is to my countrymen. I owe a flag nothing.

[Bastiat's The Law]

Well, he was a socialist right? Idolizing the flag and the union is creepy to me. Smacks of idolatry.

[jllundqu]

Holy thread resurrection, batman!!

[Deborah K]

This has bothered me for a long time. Why are we pledging allegiance to a "flag" rather than pledging allegiance to the ideals and principles that the flag stands for? I am always very uncomfortable in settings where we do this.

Someone from our local RLC group proposed starting our meetings with the following that we named "The Patriot Pledge":



Now there is a pledge that makes me want to stand at attention, cover my heart with my hand and recite with pride!

"For which it stands.." implies that we are pledging allegiance to the flag as the representation of these principles.

[Christian Liberty]

"For which it stands.." implies that we are pledging allegiance to the flag as the representation of these principles.

"Principles" such as

Republic:

Republican government is not Biblical. Absolute statelessness is.

One Nation: Why is there anything intrinsically special about the USA?

Under God: God would be offended by this, IMO. We aren't God's Chosen nation.

Indivisible: By contrast, the 10th amendment allows secession, and there is certainly nothing unbiblical about it.

With liberty and justice for all: THis is clearly a joke.

Why pledge?