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Thread: Mike Gravel's birthday is May 13th, and there will be a mass donation day

  1. #1

    Mike Gravel's birthday is May 13th, and there will be a mass donation day




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  3. #2
    not me


    check my sig
    The ultimate minority is the individual. Protect the individual from Democracy and you will protect all groups of individuals
    Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. - Thomas Jefferson
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

    - Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear

  4. #3

  5. #4
    Just because he's after the lp nomination doesn't mean he's a changed man. I like him but he hasn't proven to be a real liberty-minded candidate yet.

  6. #5

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Kludge View Post
    He went to the LP debates and called for "Healthcare for all", the SoB.
    Yes, it seems that many of the uninformed think that "libertarian" just means "unhappy with the Democrats/Republicans" and have no clue about libertarian principles
    "I am a friend of the Free State Project!" -- Rep. Ron Paul

    FreeStateProject.org


    For on the ground information about the liberty movement in New Hampshire point your browser to www.RidleyReport.com

  8. #7
    I think many here get confused between Libertarian and libertarian.

    Small "l" libertarians, Mike Gravel fits in perfectly. I don't see a problem with him trying to bring this kind of philosophy to the Big "L" Libertarian party, which could definitely use more left-thinking people like himself and Steve Kubby in the picture.

    I wouldn't mind either Paul or Gravel as my next president, because I don't like Paul's anti-abortion stance, but also don't like Gravel's call for universal healthcare and global citizenship.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by G-Wohl View Post
    I think many here get confused between Libertarian and libertarian.

    Small "l" libertarians, Mike Gravel fits in perfectly. I don't see a problem with him trying to bring this kind of philosophy to the Big "L" Libertarian party, which could definitely use more left-thinking people like himself and Steve Kubby in the picture.

    I wouldn't mind either Paul or Gravel as my next president, because I don't like Paul's anti-abortion stance, but also don't like Gravel's call for universal healthcare and global citizenship.
    Calling Gravel a libertarian is nonsense, regardless of capitalization. He's a leftist with an anti-establishment tilt. He has no clue what liberty is, proved by the fact that he thinks direct democracy is a libertarian idea.
    "I am a friend of the Free State Project!" -- Rep. Ron Paul

    FreeStateProject.org


    For on the ground information about the liberty movement in New Hampshire point your browser to www.RidleyReport.com



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  11. #9
    Gravel is a socialist. Donate to a real Libertarian like Mary Ruwart instead. But we should all nonetheless unite behind whoever the LP picks. (Which sure as hell won't be Gravel, he's a joke.)

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by porcupine View Post
    Calling Gravel a libertarian is nonsense, regardless of capitalization. He's a leftist with an anti-establishment tilt. He has no clue what liberty is, proved by the fact that he thinks direct democracy is a libertarian idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Libertarianism is a broad spectrum of political philosophies, each sharing the common overall priority of maximum limitation of government combined with optimum possible individual liberty.
    I think we're pretty clear on the definition of libertarianism (the political philosophy) here, but just in case, I quoted Wikipedia's entry above. Is it not true that very few of Gravel's principles do not reflect the quote above? The phrase "optimum possible individual liberty" is very subjective, if you ask me, and most of us here would say that getting rid of the big government bureaucracy would be the first big step. Mike Gravel simply interprets this phrase differently than we Ron Paul supporters do.

    I have seen quite a few YouTube videos of him speaking in front of large libertarian crowds with loud applause when he says that to downsize government you can legalize a fourth check into the federal government branch system. Though I don't personally think this is the right step forward, I see no problem with this - the disagreements we face between these two candidates will no doubt spark quite a few debates amongst the Libertarian Party, which will only expand our tent and make the LP a more competitive outfit.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by G-Wohl View Post
    I think we're pretty clear on the definition of libertarianism (the political philosophy) here, but just in case, I quoted Wikipedia's entry above. Is it not true that very few of Gravel's principles do not reflect the quote above? The phrase "optimum possible individual liberty" is very subjective, if you ask me, and most of us here would say that getting rid of the big government bureaucracy would be the first big step. Mike Gravel simply interprets this phrase differently than we Ron Paul supporters do.

    I have seen quite a few YouTube videos of him speaking in front of large libertarian crowds with loud applause when he says that to downsize government you can legalize a fourth check into the federal government branch system. Though I don't personally think this is the right step forward, I see no problem with this - the disagreements we face between these two candidates will no doubt spark quite a few debates amongst the Libertarian Party, which will only expand our tent and make the LP a more competitive outfit.

    There are semantics about the argument, but he isn't a minarchist libertarian nor is he economically conservative like us Ron Paul supporters. It's simple rhetoric, not actual talk.
    Truth is treason in the empire of lies-Revolution: A Manifesto-by Ron Paul


    "You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God, I will rout you out... If people only understood the rank injustice of the money and banking system, there would be a revolution by morning."-only President ever with no national debt- words to a delegation of bankers.-Andrew Jackson.

    Getting scared FRS? Getting scared IRS?

  14. #12
    He should be admitted to a mental institution, not into the white house.

  15. #13
    mike gravel as bob barrs veep would give the libertarians quite a gravitas.
    the other option is a fusion ticket with chuck baldwin of the constitution party.

  16. #14
    Why in god's name would anyone donate to Gravel, Barr or anyone else on a third-party ticket? Just flush your money down the toilet instead.

    BJ Lawson actually has a shot, as do Vern McKinley, Amit Singh and Murray Sabrin--at least donating to them could actually help win an office.
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  17. #15
    Libertarians in general seem to spend too much time defining "libertarianism".

    Mike Gravel is a strong supporter of liberty of the mind & of free association (in the context of an existing society), among other things. I think that is reason enough to join the libertarian party. Bob Barr isn't any "purer," to be honest. I think Ron Paul could learn a thing or two from Mike Gravel's social views, as well.

    Mike Gravel is a great guy. Don't bash friends of liberty just because they don't fit your pure definition of libertarianism. In order for liberty to take root, liberty will need diverse support. Making enemies is not going to help us in the long run.


    Do not libertarians support freedom to have our own opinions and ideas to change things?


    Yes, he justifies coercion and the greater good, but so does some of the purest libertarians in other ways, although to a lesser extent.


    Isn't voting a form of utilitarianism (a form of the greater good) as well? Mike Gravel does not support giving up our responsibility. He is correct that representative democracy is broken. And, he has admitted himself that his views may not be completely correct.

    At the very least, he gives me something to think about.


    EDIT: Happy Birthday Mike!
    Last edited by Libertarian Ideals; 05-13-2008 at 07:58 PM.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshLowry View Post
    Yongrel can post whatever he wants as long as it isn't porn.



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