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Thread: Why Dr. Paul is good for liberals, too.

  1. #1

    Why Dr. Paul is good for liberals, too.

    Welcome. There may be places on this forum where you don't feel particularly welcome. These libertarians will agree with you on issues of liberty, but will likely call you "socialist" at some point or another. I apologize in advance. They are enthusiastic--which is a nice improvement over the apathy of the last several years, but leads them to youthful indiscretions.

    Why is Ron Paul a good choice for liberals? Because the federal government doesn't do anything well! The majority of federal social programs consist of the federal government taking our money, skimming their cut off the top, and redistributing that same money back to our state governments to spend. Why wouldn't we eliminate the middleman?

    Think about it. The states are closer to the people on the ground. They have the structures in place. Why let the grossly and notoriously inefficient fed have a cut at all? This states' rights attitude, by the way, also characterizes Dr. Paul's stance on abortion--and pretty much everything else.

    Thank you for visiting. Thank you for thinking freely. Thank you for fighting for our Constitutional freedoms. And thank you for your visit and your time!
    Last edited by acptulsa; 09-26-2008 at 11:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    My tax dollars paid to fund ISIS and make fake beheading videos. Are you saying we shouldn't get our monies worth??



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  3. #2

  4. #3
    I am a die-hard socialist Ron Paul supporter. I know that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

    I agree with you that Ron Paul is great for liberals as well as conservatives. He's great for anyone who believes in liberty and peace. I think in many ways you are correct about our social programs not being handled well by the government. The Social Security trust fund constantly being raided is a great example. Health care, also. We spend more per capita on Medicare than most socialist-leaning countries spend on their entire program of Universal Healthcare (i.e. Medicare for all). It's like we're spending enough for a Universal healthcare system, but for some reason we're not getting it! Somebody is sure skimming off the top, you are correct about that.

    So, in many ways you are correct. However, I think that most liberals are not going to switch to the Paul camp because of social programs.

    The war, the Patriot act, wiretapping, torture in Guantanamo, and things like that are much better angles to take when talking to liberals. All these issues are vital to our Constitutional rights and to our moral compass (as well as our country's pocketbook), yet no Democrat remaining in the race will touch them with a ten-foot pole. Oh, they'll -say- they'll do something about the war, they'll talk like they hate torture, and maybe they will even shut down Guantanamo.... but the hard truth is that the Democratic party has sold our country out to the special interests and corporations.

    At this point, the Democratic party only serves to pacify their liberal base, preventing their anger at the things having transpired under the Bush years from blowing up into country-wide civil unrest.

    They say "At least we're doing something about the issues you care about, the alternative is so much worse" when at the same time they take massive bribes from the corporations who don't want anything done. Sure, they might reduce the troop levels in Iraq, but the war and occupation will continue. Sure, they might close Guantanamo, who knows, but the large numbers of other secret prisons we have around the world will stay open. Maybe they will weaken the Patriot Act, but it will stay mostly intact.

    And the thing is, you can make exactly this same arguement from the conservative side. The neo-cons have sold out their conservative base to the corporations and special interests. They -say- they will reduce the size of government, but for some reason it keeps going up year after year. They -talk- about being fiscally conservative while they spend like drunken Democrats. On crack.

    Until we clean up the corruption in Washington, this system will continue.

    We are taught in school that in America, we have a Democracy. In America, the People have the power. But it's become apparent that there is only once voice in Washington, a Wormtongue speaking into the ear of the President (whoever it happens to be) who is deciding everything that goes on. There are minor differences between parties, sure, but the will of the people, be they conservatives or liberals, is being ignored.

    Until we take back the power that is rightfully ours, the power that is written in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, the power that the founders intended for us to have, nothing else in politics really matters.

    Ron Paul will smash the system to pieces and restore the Republic. That's why I support him.

  5. #4

  6. #5
    Very good post, CU. The G.O.P. may not seem the most logical one to take back first, but I think that it is the most ripe for the taking (for various reasons) and it is the only one that has a Dr. Paul to rally 'round. So, disaffected Democrats, please accept my heartiest welcome!
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    My tax dollars paid to fund ISIS and make fake beheading videos. Are you saying we shouldn't get our monies worth??

  7. #6
    Ron Paul is good for any American who believes in the principals of the founding fathers, and the constitution.

    I'm a born and raised liberal democrat, when i was in high school a teacher exposed me to the liberatarian philosophy, but a third party in America is a joke, so while i did embrace their ideals i shrugged it off.

    I've been supporting Barrack Obama since last year. On March 3rd word of Dr. Ron Paul reached my ears, and I'd been divided, but just the other day during a speech Obama suggested that the Federal Reserve was part of the Federal Government and I friggin lost it. I renounce the democratic party. From here on out I'm totally dedicated to Ron Paul and the Revolution. (not to be confused with Prince and the Revolution)
    Last edited by revolutionman; 03-30-2008 at 05:37 PM.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by revolutionman View Post
    Ron Paul is good for any American who believes in the principals of the founding fathers, and the constitution.

    I'm a born and raised liberal democrat, when i was in high school a teacher exposed me to the liberatarian philosophy, but a third party in America is a joke, so while i did embrace their ideals i shrugged it off.

    I've been supporting Barrack Obama since last year. On March 3rd word of Dr. Ron Paul reached my ears, and I'd been divided, but just the other day during a speech Obama suggested that the Federal Reserve was part of the Federal Government and I friggin lost it. I renounce the democratic party. From here on out I'm totally dedicated to Ron Paul and the Revolution. (not to be confused with Prince and the Revolution)
    Congratulations, thanks for opening your eyes, and a hearty welcome! Good to have you here, patriot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    My tax dollars paid to fund ISIS and make fake beheading videos. Are you saying we shouldn't get our monies worth??

  9. #8
    MIKE GRAVEL has joined the LIBERTARIAN PARTY...
    THERE, THIS SHOULD MAKE THINGS EASIER!



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Welcome. There may be places on this forum where you don't feel particularly welcome. These libertarians will agree with you on issues of liberty, but will likely call you "socialist" at some point or another. I apologize in advance. They are enthusiastic--which is a nice improvement over the apathy of the last several years, but leads them to youthful indiscretions.

    Why is Ron Paul a good choice for liberals? Because the federal government doesn't do anything well! Think about it--the majority of federal social programs consist of the federal government taking our money, skimming their cut off the top, and redistributing that same money back to our state governments to spend. Why wouldn't we eliminate the middleman?

    Think about it. The states are closer to the people on the ground. They have the structures in place. Why let the grossly and notoriously inefficient fed have a cut at all? This states' rights attitude, by the way, also characterizes Dr. Paul's stance on abortion--and pretty much everything else.

    Thank you for visiting. Thank you for thinking freely. Thank you for fighting for our Constitutional freedoms. And thank you for your visit and your time!
    What a joke. If only...

    "The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."

    -Bertrand Russell


    I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    What a joke. If only...
    And if you do get flamed, this one will stand by you. He may be a liberal, but he sure still loves a good fight!
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    My tax dollars paid to fund ISIS and make fake beheading videos. Are you saying we shouldn't get our monies worth??

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    And if you do get flamed, this one will stand by you. He may be a liberal, but he sure still loves a good fight!
    Damn right. I'd be on your side too, if and when you decide to advocate good policy and rational thought.

    "The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."

    -Bertrand Russell


    I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    Damn right. I'd be on your side too, if and when you decide to advocate good policy and rational thought.
    Kade--what's wrong with you? This was a very thoughtful thread welcoming liberals (well done acp) and you're still all verklempt about something. I don't even know what.

    What do you mean by "if and when you decide to advocate good policy and rational thought?" I've certainly never seen acp advocate anything else and he's quite rational.
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    Kade--what's wrong with you? This was a very thoughtful thread welcoming liberals (well done acp) and you're still all verklempt about something. I don't even know what.

    What do you mean by "if and when you decide to advocate good policy and rational thought?" I've certainly never seen acp advocate anything else and he's quite rational.
    According to Kade, good policy and rational thought = strict adherence to Obama's "progressive" agenda.

    The leftist “supporters” aren't interested in libertarianism (or the majority of Dr. Paul's platform). They're only interested in distorting and co-opting this movement to advance their own twisted political ends.
    Last edited by crazyfingers; 06-20-2008 at 10:16 AM.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    Kade--what's wrong with you? This was a very thoughtful thread welcoming liberals (well done acp) and you're still all verklempt about something. I don't even know what.

    What do you mean by "if and when you decide to advocate good policy and rational thought?" I've certainly never seen acp advocate anything else and he's quite rational.
    Excuse me. where have you been the last three days on here... there are threads where I am not even involved where people are talking cheap shots at me..

    This thread is a lie. Liberals may be welcomed by the rational leaders of this forums, but they most certainly are not welcome by the members and what's left of the fascist remnants here... and you can't expect the moderates to defend you, even the ones who know you better.

    No, how dare you speak about a "thoughtful" thread... should I just post links instead?

    "The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."

    -Bertrand Russell


    I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfingers View Post
    According to Kade, good policy and rational thought = strict adherence to Obama's "progressive" agenda.

    The leftist “supporters” aren't interested in libertarianism (or the majority of Dr. Paul's platform). They're only interested in distorting and co-opting this movement to advance their own twisted political ends.
    Example #234235

    Seriously, where, anywhere, have I said this?

    This whole thing is just one flame after another instead of any useful debate.

    I mean look at this post... are you kidding me?

    "The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."

    -Bertrand Russell


    I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    This thread is a lie.
    This thread extended my personal welcome, and I stand by it. I even tend to like the combative liberals, even though being conservative I will argue my side without apology. In any case, my personal welcome isn't the point of the thread.

    The point of that post was to suggest that a libertarian-minded administration and a reduced federal bureaucracy is something liberals can wholeheartedly support, especially given the cesspool of corruption and incompetence that has infested Washington. And the fact that you are still here trying to convert us heathens suggests to me that you agree (at least to a point) with that statement. So, I really don't think I was lying...
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    My tax dollars paid to fund ISIS and make fake beheading videos. Are you saying we shouldn't get our monies worth??



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    Excuse me. where have you been the last three days on here... there are threads where I am not even involved where people are talking cheap shots at me..

    This thread is a lie. Liberals may be welcomed by the rational leaders of this forums, but they most certainly are not welcome by the members and what's left of the fascist remnants here... and you can't expect the moderates to defend you, even the ones who know you better.

    No, how dare you speak about a "thoughtful" thread... should I just post links instead?
    Kade--there are people who've taken cheap shots at me as well. It wasn't so long ago that I was called a "twisted little snot" right here on these very boards!

    The difference is that a) I thought it was funny and b) I don't care, for the most part, what other people think of me.

    Now, you're attacking even those who support you or have some similarities with you, further alienating yourself and whatever good points you may have from people on the boards. You're like an injured dog who snaps at anyone who comes near them, even the people that come to help.
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    Kade--there are people who've taken cheap shots at me as well. It wasn't so long ago that I was called a "twisted little snot" right here on these very boards!

    The difference is that a) I thought it was funny and b) I don't care, for the most part, what other people think of me.

    Now, you're attacking even those who support you or have some similarities with you, further alienating yourself and whatever good points you may have from people on the boards. You're like an injured dog who snaps at anyone who comes near them, even the people that come to help.
    And exactly who in the last three days has stood up for me?

    I'm far from an injured dog... just furious. I don't need or care for others to chime in with support. I prefer the 1 on 80 battle just fine.

    "The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."

    -Bertrand Russell


    I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    And exactly who in the last three days has stood up for me?

    I'm far from an injured dog... just furious. I don't need or care for others to chime in with support. I prefer the 1 on 80 battle just fine.
    Well then quit yer bitchin! I haven't been following any threads that you've been posting in.
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    I prefer the 1 on 80 battle just fine.
    And I've been fighting for libertarian ideals and a smaller federal government for long enough that I can say nothing at all against those who are disposed to tilt at windmills....
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    My tax dollars paid to fund ISIS and make fake beheading videos. Are you saying we shouldn't get our monies worth??

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by revolutionman View Post
    Ron Paul is good for any American who believes in the principals of the founding fathers, and the constitution.

    I'm a born and raised liberal democrat, when i was in high school a teacher exposed me to the liberatarian philosophy, but a third party in America is a joke, so while i did embrace their ideals i shrugged it off.

    I've been supporting Barrack Obama since last year. On March 3rd word of Dr. Ron Paul reached my ears, and I'd been divided, but just the other day during a speech Obama suggested that the Federal Reserve was part of the Federal Government and I friggin lost it. I renounce the democratic party. From here on out I'm totally dedicated to Ron Paul and the Revolution. (not to be confused with Prince and the Revolution)
    I completely agree, once you know you can't accept anything, but the genuine article.

  25. #22
    http://www.anti-state.com/geo/foldvary2.html

    Here's a good article encouraging the left and right to lock arms. He phrases it as "Geoists and market anarchists", and I'll admit I've never heard the term "geoist" before. I'm guessing it refers more to Greens, but overall this applies just fine to the left and right in the most general sense.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by CUnknown View Post
    I am a die-hard socialist Ron Paul supporter. I know that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

    I agree with you that Ron Paul is great for liberals as well as conservatives. He's great for anyone who believes in liberty and peace. I think in many ways you are correct about our social programs not being handled well by the government. The Social Security trust fund constantly being raided is a great example. Health care, also. We spend more per capita on Medicare than most socialist-leaning countries spend on their entire program of Universal Healthcare (i.e. Medicare for all). It's like we're spending enough for a Universal healthcare system, but for some reason we're not getting it! Somebody is sure skimming off the top, you are correct about that.

    So, in many ways you are correct. However, I think that most liberals are not going to switch to the Paul camp because of social programs.

    The war, the Patriot act, wiretapping, torture in Guantanamo, and things like that are much better angles to take when talking to liberals. All these issues are vital to our Constitutional rights and to our moral compass (as well as our country's pocketbook), yet no Democrat remaining in the race will touch them with a ten-foot pole. Oh, they'll -say- they'll do something about the war, they'll talk like they hate torture, and maybe they will even shut down Guantanamo.... but the hard truth is that the Democratic party has sold our country out to the special interests and corporations.

    At this point, the Democratic party only serves to pacify their liberal base, preventing their anger at the things having transpired under the Bush years from blowing up into country-wide civil unrest.

    They say "At least we're doing something about the issues you care about, the alternative is so much worse" when at the same time they take massive bribes from the corporations who don't want anything done. Sure, they might reduce the troop levels in Iraq, but the war and occupation will continue. Sure, they might close Guantanamo, who knows, but the large numbers of other secret prisons we have around the world will stay open. Maybe they will weaken the Patriot Act, but it will stay mostly intact.

    And the thing is, you can make exactly this same arguement from the conservative side. The neo-cons have sold out their conservative base to the corporations and special interests. They -say- they will reduce the size of government, but for some reason it keeps going up year after year. They -talk- about being fiscally conservative while they spend like drunken Democrats. On crack.

    Until we clean up the corruption in Washington, this system will continue.

    We are taught in school that in America, we have a Democracy. In America, the People have the power. But it's become apparent that there is only once voice in Washington, a Wormtongue speaking into the ear of the President (whoever it happens to be) who is deciding everything that goes on. There are minor differences between parties, sure, but the will of the people, be they conservatives or liberals, is being ignored.

    Until we take back the power that is rightfully ours, the power that is written in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, the power that the founders intended for us to have, nothing else in politics really matters.

    Ron Paul will smash the system to pieces and restore the Republic. That's why I support him.
    Yet another example of RP bringing together the left and the right.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by CUnknown View Post
    We spend more per capita on Medicare than most socialist-leaning countries spend on their entire program of Universal Healthcare (i.e. Medicare for all). It's like we're spending enough for a Universal healthcare system, but for some reason we're not getting it! Somebody is sure skimming off the top, you are correct about that..
    Really??

    Source??
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul Vermont View Post
    Yet another example of RP bringing together the left and the right.
    Yes, I love it..

    What I don't like is the opposite:


    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=150844
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  30. #26
    Well put, O.P.

    Theoretically, the more localized government is, the more accountable it is to its voters.

    And

    Federal programs suck, period. Whether the FedGov. is waging an illegal war, or trying to provide healthcare to every single person in the U.S. --- it is an inefficient monstrosity. Tax dollars can be much better spent at a local level, or even better, returned to the people so that they can make their own decisions.

    That's about the only way I know to put it.

    Indeed, it just takes an open mind, from either the left or the right, to stop and make sense of what Ron Paul says.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Elliot's The Hollow Men

  31. #27

    Angry Right...

    You have a liberal in your ranks, and he calls *bull$#@!*. This thread is laughable because you have tried everything short of force to make it clear that liberals are not welcomed in this movement.

    Of all the threads on this board, I hate this one the most.

    "The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."

    -Bertrand Russell


    I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    You have a liberal in your ranks, and he calls *bull$#@!*. This thread is laughable because you have tried everything short of force to make it clear that liberals are not welcomed in this movement.

    Of all the threads on this board, I hate this one the most.
    Oh, Kade... Well, you know, I said Ron Paul was good for everyone. I didn't actually say that these forums are for everyone.

    Sorry if the latter isn't true, and it probably isn't. But I do hope the idea of letting the states be as liberal or as conservative as their residents wish catches on, because I think it's a good one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    My tax dollars paid to fund ISIS and make fake beheading videos. Are you saying we shouldn't get our monies worth??

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Oh, Kade... Well, you know, I said Ron Paul was good for everyone. I didn't actually say that these forums are for everyone.

    Sorry if the latter isn't true, and it probably isn't. But I do hope the idea of letting the states be as liberal or as conservative as their residents wish catches on, because I think it's a good one.
    I agree... however, Almost every state is larger than the original 13 states combined...

    I worry about what sort of tyranny a state like Texas means to enact.

    "The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."

    -Bertrand Russell


    I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law

  34. #30
    The only thing I think wrong about liberals is that they seem to want every taxpayer to give money to the causes that THEY think are necessary. They hear about Darfor..they want my money to go there. They hear about injustice in other countries? Send MY money to fix it. I totally disagree with that. I believe our country should TALK to ones doing things wrong--not threaten or pay. I think individuals and churches should do whatever they want to help out, just NOT our government. I also think that if states wanted to do weird things that the people in those states would have to change it, or move. It is much easier to change tactics at a state airport than it is to change tactics at all of them at once (for example), due to federal mandates.

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