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Thread: Iceland Stuns Banks: Plans To Take Back The Power To Create Money

  1. #1

    Iceland Stuns Banks: Plans To Take Back The Power To Create Money

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...r-create-money

    Who knew that the revolution would start with those radical Icelanders? It does, though. One Frosti Sigurjonsson, a lawmaker from the ruling Progress Party, issued a report today that suggests taking the power to create money away from commercial banks, and hand it to the central bank and, ultimately, Parliament.

    Can’t see commercial banks in the western world be too happy with this. They must be contemplating wiping the island nation off the map. If accepted in the Iceland parliament , the plan would change the game in a very radical way. It would be successful too, because there is no bigger scourge on our economies than commercial banks creating money and then securitizing and selling off the loans they just created the money (credit) with.

    Everyone, with the possible exception of Paul Krugman, understands why this is a very sound idea. Agence France Presse reports:

    Iceland Looks At Ending Boom And Bust With Radical Money Plan
    Iceland’s government is considering a revolutionary monetary proposal – removing the power of commercial banks to create money and handing it to the central bank. The proposal, which would be a turnaround in the history of modern finance, was part of a report written by a lawmaker from the ruling centrist Progress Party, Frosti Sigurjonsson, entitled “A better monetary system for Iceland”.

    “The findings will be an important contribution to the upcoming discussion, here and elsewhere, on money creation and monetary policy,” Prime Minister Sigmundur David Gunnlaugsson said. The report, commissioned by the premier, is aimed at putting an end to a monetary system in place through a slew of financial crises, including the latest one in 2008.

    According to a study by four central bankers, the country has had “over 20 instances of financial crises of different types” since 1875, with “six serious multiple financial crisis episodes occurring every 15 years on average”. Mr Sigurjonsson said the problem each time arose from ballooning credit during a strong economic cycle.


    ...
    (Full Article on Link)

    So, when is the US scheduled to invade Iceland?
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.



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  3. #2
    This is definitely the model we should be following.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  4. #3
    They suggest giving control of all lending to the central bank. No loans can be issued without their approval. So more government powers. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...oney-plan.html

    He argued the central bank was unable to contain the credit boom, allowing inflation to rise and sparking exaggerated risk-taking and speculation, the threat of bank collapse and costly state interventions.

    In Iceland, as in other modern market economies, the central bank controls the creation of banknotes and coins but not the creation of all money, which occurs as soon as a commercial bank offers a line of credit.

    The central bank can only try to influence the money supply with its monetary policy tools.
    Under the so-called Sovereign Money proposal, the country's central bank would become the only creator of money.

    Banks would continue to manage accounts and payments, and would serve as intermediaries between savers and lenders.
    Loan for your business? Talk to their Fed.
    Loan for a house? Talk to their Fed.
    Loan for school or a car? Talk to their Fed.


    Iceland Looks At Ending Boom And Bust With Radical Money Plan
    No economic system has been able to avoid booms and busts.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 04-01-2015 at 05:57 PM.

  5. #4
    It would seem to me that the bitcoin method of making and taking loans is the only honest method.

    If you want bitcoins... you borrow bitcoins and the person you borrow them from doesn't have the the coins until you give them back.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    ...

    No economic system has been able to avoid booms and busts.
    ... except for economies without Central Banks!

    Zippy = Central Bank Tool
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  7. #6
    Examples? Let's start with economies without any booms and busts- regardless of their economic or banking system. Can you find ANY examples of those?

    (Central Banks can't prevent them either)
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 04-01-2015 at 07:14 PM.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    ...
    Zippy = Central Bank Tool
    Don't forget that the ZippyJuan account is with the National Jewish Democratic Council. He even acknowledged it (my sig line).
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  9. #8
    As one of the hardest hit victims of the 2008 crash, Iceland is a great place for this to start. Plus if you are from Iceland and your name is Frosti you are automatically awesome.
    I too have been a close observer of the doings of the Bank of the United States...When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank...You are a den of vipers and thieves. I have determined to rout you out, and by the Eternal, I will rout you out!

    Andrew Jackson, 1834



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Loan for your business? Talk to their Fed.
    Loan for a house? Talk to their Fed.
    Loan for school or a car? Talk to their Fed.
    Their Fed is what they're getting rid of. No more commercial banks creating money and then securitizing and selling off the loans they just created the money (credit) with. The Fed can try to camouflage that this is what it is with presidential appointments and little gifts to the treasury, but this is exactly what the Fed is anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    No economic system has been able to avoid booms and busts.
    So why are we allowing commercial banks to create money and then securitize and sell off the loans they just created the money (credit) with again? Because if you'll read William Jennings Bryan's 'Cross of Gold' speech, you'll find that the only reason we abandoned solid, dependable money was (ostensibly) because rubber baby buggy funny money could do exactly that.

    Instead, it seems to make bubbles blow up bigger before they burst and prolong recessions that we would recover from far more quickly if we toughed it out on our solid money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Examples? Let's start with economies without any booms and busts- regardless of their economic or banking system. Can you find ANY examples of those?

    (Central Banks can't prevent them either)
    You're missing the point, Z2.0. The point is, if funny money does not prevent these things as advertised, then why are we putting up with gradual currency devaluation inflating our savings away on the wind again?!
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-01-2015 at 07:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  12. #10
    You're missing the point, Z2.0. The point is, if funny money does not prevent these things as advertised, then why are we putting up with gradual currency devaluation inflating our savings away on the wind again?!
    When was it claimed that central banks could prevent bubbles? Who said it? We certainly had our share of bubbles on a gold standard (one suggested alternative) as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States

    Their Fed is what they're getting rid of. No more commercial banks creating money and then securitizing and selling off the loans they just created the money (credit) with. The Fed can try to camouflage that this is what it is with presidential appointments and little gifts to the treasury, but this is exactly what the Fed is anyway.
    Actually, rather than getting rid of their Fed, they are giving it more power than the US Fed has. The power to decide who gets loans. The Fed can try to influence how much gets loaned out by trying to control interest rates. The Icelandic Fed will be able to directly determine it.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 04-01-2015 at 07:55 PM.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    When was it claimed that central banks could prevent bubbles? Who said it? We certainly had our share of bubbles on a gold standard (one suggested alternative) as well.
    I just said, Z2.0. Pay attention. What part of 'in William Jennings Bryan's "Cross of Gold speech"' are you pretending you didn't understand?

    Bone up on your history, Z2.0. You ain't earning your pay.

    This was the fairy tale they sold us this godawful bill of goods with, and was the fairy tale for the first seven decades if its existence or more, until they finally $#@!ed things up so much they made their old fairy tale downright laughable. Since then, they have indeed laid off that lie. Nice they have you up to date, I guess. You got the memo.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-01-2015 at 07:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  14. #12
    Perhaps you can help me find the part where Bryant promised that if we got a central bank there would be no more bubbles. (his speech was not on central banking but bi-metalism)
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 04-01-2015 at 08:43 PM.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    It would seem to me that the bitcoin method of making and taking loans is the only honest method.

    If you want bitcoins... you borrow bitcoins and the person you borrow them from doesn't have the the coins until you give them back.
    Nothing about that method actually requires bitcoins. Any currency will do as long as there is no legal counterfeiting mechanism such as fractional reserve or central bank money printing.

  16. #14
    Privatization contributed to their economic boom and bust. http://monthlyreview.org/2013/10/01/lessons-iceland/

    Iceland’s ruling families were growing increasingly dissatisfied with their economic situation. The small size of the country as well as continuing state ownership of banking and other significant business sectors placed limits on their opportunities for profit. And, as economic problems and political tensions grew, Oddsson’s leadership of the Independence Party became ever more attractive to them.

    Soon after becoming prime minister, Oddsson began lowering corporate tax rates and privatizing state-owned companies. Serious change came only after 1994, when Iceland joined the European Economic Area (EEA), the free-trade bloc of the European Union. Membership gave Iceland open access to European markets and the country’s political and business leaders were quick to grasp that a privatized, deregulated, and expanded finance sector was their best vehicle for overcoming the country’s profit-constraining market size.5

    Bank privatization began in the late 1990s through a highly controlled and politicized process that was completed in 2003. The first privatization was of a small investment bank. A family associated with a relatively new business group known as the Orcas gained control of that bank, and through mergers and acquisitions created Glitnir, which became one of Iceland’s three major banks. The two large state banks—Landsbanki and Buradarbanki (later to become Kaupthing)—were the main prize, and the government ensured that the bidding process would deliver majority ownership of the former to supporters of the Independence Party, which meant Octopus families, and the latter to supporters of the Progressive Party, which meant Squid families. The new owners then established private holding companies which tapped their respective banks for funds to start new businesses, and in some cases took over existing businesses owned by other elites. The new owners also funneled money back to their respective parties and party leaders.6

    The resulting transformation of the Icelandic economy did produce a change in the relationship between state and ruling elites, with the latter increasing its relative power. It also led to a restructuring of elite relations, in particular a weakening of ties among leading families and the rise of new power centers. However, despite the free-market/libertarian rhetoric that accompanied it, the transformation was never designed to, nor did it, destroy close state-business ties or end monopoly dominance over the economy.

    Growth and Crisis

    Iceland’s economy soared, especially over the years 2003 to 2007. The annual average growth in GDP was 5.5 percent and unemployment declined from an already low 3.4 percent to 1 percent.7 The IMF estimated that Iceland was the world’s third-richest nation in per capita terms in 2005.8 As we see next, these gains were fueled by the highly leveraged expansion of the country’s three leading banks, an expansion that contained the seeds of the country’s eventual 2008 economic collapse.

    The rate of growth of Iceland’s banking system from 2003 to 2007 was unprecedented.9 Total end-of-the-year assets held by the three largest banks rose from less than twice the country’s GDP in 2003 to over eight times in 2007, and to almost ten times as of June 2008.10

    The banks relied heavily on foreign money for their expansion. Early funding came largely from selling bonds in the European market. When foreign rating agency warnings about the health of Icelandic banks closed off the European market in 2006, the banks turned briefly to the U.S. bond market. The following year, Landsbanki and Kaupthing turned to yet another market, foreign retail deposits, especially in the United Kingdom and the Netherlands. All three banks also used their subsidiaries in Luxemburg to engage in indirect collaterized borrowing from the Eurosystem. By the end of 2004, Iceland was the world’s most heavily indebted country measured in terms of gross external debt to GDP.11
    In 1991, the Icelandic government began an aggressive program of liberalization and privatization which gave rise to the hyper-expansion of three Icelandic banks. Their highly leveraged growth fueled massive stock market and housing bubbles, all of which combined to make Iceland’s per capita GDP one of the world’s highest by the mid–2000s. Iceland’s economy collapsed in October 2008 when the three banks were forced into bankruptcy; the country suffered one of the deepest downturns in the world.

    In a response that remains unique in Europe, the Icelandic people forced the political leaders responsible for the neoliberal program to resign. They then elected a social democratic coalition government which aggressively intervened in financial, currency, and housing markets, and engaged in a targeted expansion of key social programs. As a result, Iceland has experienced one of Europe’s most rapid and broad-based economic recoveries. Unfortunately, the scope of these state actions was limited by still powerful capitalist-class relations. Working-class gains may well be reversed, particularly with the political reversal in April 2013, and the election of a conservative government representing the dominant interests.
    More details at link.

  17. #15
    Uh, Z2.0, if that was not the argument, what was?

    And why are you deflecting from the question, which was, if it does nothing to prevent bubbles (and in fact makes them worse) why are we putting up with watching our savings, or wages and our standards of living made worthless through price inflation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Privatization contributed to their economic boom and bust. http://monthlyreview.org/2013/10/01/lessons-iceland/
    Thanks for the good argument against the private Fed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  18. #16
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    Don't forget that the ZippyJuan account is with the National Jewish Democratic Council. He even acknowledged it (my sig line).
    ah so that explains him... yeah hes only one of 2 "Ron Paulers" Ive ever seen who love the fed and income tax.... no wonder.



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  20. #17
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Their Fed is what they're getting rid of. No more commercial banks creating money and then securitizing and selling off the loans they just created the money (credit) with. The Fed can try to camouflage that this is what it is with presidential appointments and little gifts to the treasury, but this is exactly what the Fed is anyway.



    So why are we allowing commercial banks to create money and then securitize and sell off the loans they just created the money (credit) with again? Because if you'll read William Jennings Bryan's 'Cross of Gold' speech, you'll find that the only reason we abandoned solid, dependable money was (ostensibly) because rubber baby buggy funny money could do exactly that.

    Instead, it seems to make bubbles blow up bigger before they burst and prolong recessions that we would recover from far more quickly if we toughed it out on our solid money.



    You're missing the point, Z2.0. The point is, if funny money does not prevent these things as advertised, then why are we putting up with gradual currency devaluation inflating our savings away on the wind again?!


    Wow and Zippy just made the best case for why we should end the fed... Ironic isnt it?

    Thanks Zippy

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    They suggest giving control of all lending to the central bank. No loans can be issued without their approval. So more government powers. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...oney-plan.html

    Loan for your business? Talk to their Fed.
    Loan for a house? Talk to their Fed.
    Loan for school or a car? Talk to their Fed.
    Why is that? It sounds like they are talking about money creation, not loaning money. If someone has money, they can loan it to somebody else. Where is this additional new government control over lending?
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  22. #19
    That is a pretty idiotic plan to eliminate booms and busts. A central bank can't know what interest rates are supposed to be, and by controlling the supply of money and credit directly, they would be controlling all interest rates. They will be stabbing in the dark, and if it is an improvement over the current system, it would be by blind luck.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Why is that? It sounds like they are talking about money creation, not loaning money. If someone has money, they can loan it to somebody else. Where is this additional new government control over lending?
    Loaning IS Creation the way our current money system works. And it only "works" for those at the top.

    ---

    So in this thread, Zippy says there IS a Boom Bust Cycle Economy, but any time we point out how $#@!ty things are for everyone at the bottom, Zippy comes right back with "There is NO Boom Bust Cycle Economics" and "Everything is Awesome" then points to pretty charts of Govt Authorized LIES. But, he is very subtle about it, despite endangering his own future, at everyone elses expense.

    I think nearly everyone knows damn good and well which side Zippy plays for in terms of Economy.

    And there in lies the biggest issue, Money is the Enabler of damn near everything else that has gone wrong with this once great country. NSA wants a paycheck, so they print it. Cops want a paycheck so they just print it.

    Money Creation in the hands of a Central Bank is the internalized DESTROYER of Nations. And so far, Iceland is the only country to have pulled their collective heads out of their asses and got something done. They prosecuted their Crony Banksters, now they are making news again by going after the thing the Banks so desperately need, to control issue of a Nations Currency. Between the US and Iceland, one is headed on a better path, one is not.

    Thanks for selling us all out Zippy.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  24. #21
    From comments below article
    Sonic the porcupine

    So instead of idiots in commercial banks creating money. We have idiots in parliment creating money. Forget going back to commodity money, that's just crazy!
    Honestly, I don't see what everyone is cheering about. Trading one rent seeker for another. Governments can inflate the money supply too.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    That is a pretty idiotic plan to eliminate booms and busts. A central bank can't know what interest rates are supposed to be, and by controlling the supply of money and credit directly, they would be controlling all interest rates. They will be stabbing in the dark, and if it is an improvement over the current system, it would be by blind luck.
    Agreed, but it's still better than the fascist, hybridized secret private bank with governmental powers that we have in the form of the Fed. It's a step in the right direction, though not a leap to the finish line.
    I too have been a close observer of the doings of the Bank of the United States...When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank...You are a den of vipers and thieves. I have determined to rout you out, and by the Eternal, I will rout you out!

    Andrew Jackson, 1834

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Loaning IS Creation the way our current money system works. And it only "works" for those at the top.

    ---

    So in this thread, Zippy says there IS a Boom Bust Cycle Economy, but any time we point out how $#@!ty things are for everyone at the bottom, Zippy comes right back with "There is NO Boom Bust Cycle Economics" and "Everything is Awesome" then points to pretty charts of Govt Authorized LIES. But, he is very subtle about it, despite endangering his own future, at everyone elses expense.

    I think nearly everyone knows damn good and well which side Zippy plays for in terms of Economy.

    And there in lies the biggest issue, Money is the Enabler of damn near everything else that has gone wrong with this once great country. NSA wants a paycheck, so they print it. Cops want a paycheck so they just print it.

    Money Creation in the hands of a Central Bank is the internalized DESTROYER of Nations. And so far, Iceland is the only country to have pulled their collective heads out of their asses and got something done. They prosecuted their Crony Banksters, now they are making news again by going after the thing the Banks so desperately need, to control issue of a Nations Currency. Between the US and Iceland, one is headed on a better path, one is not.

    Thanks for selling us all out Zippy.
    Okay. I usually disagree with Zippy, but damn it he's right this time. From the OP article Iceland is handing more power to it central bank. Is that a good thing? I don't know. I'm not an economist. This sounds like the kind of proposal you hear from a Dennis Kucinich or a Cornel West or any on the left that are against the banksters. Yes it's great to break up the private / public cabal, but this could be going out o the frying pan into the fire. What happened to the Auroracoin project? Is it DOA?

    Edit: Okay. I just read the OP article. It sounds like what Iceland is doing is ending fractional reserve banking. If so that IS a step in the right direction. What is happening now is fraud. Banks are allowed to play a shell game where there are lending out more than then they have in reserve. So the central bank creates funny money and the commercial banks multiply that funny money by 10. Taking away power to do that is indeed a step in the right direction.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 04-02-2015 at 08:08 AM.
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    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  27. #24
    I just keep on hearing about really good things coming out of Iceland.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Nothing about that method actually requires bitcoins. Any currency will do
    Indeed. Although in reality, every fiat currency fails.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  30. #26
    Except, fractional reserve banking doesn't create money anyway......

    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Okay. I usually disagree with Zippy, but damn it he's right this time. From the OP article Iceland is handing more power to it central bank. Is that a good thing? I don't know. I'm not an economist. This sounds like the kind of proposal you hear from a Dennis Kucinich or a Cornel West or any on the left that are against the banksters. Yes it's great to break up the private / public cabal, but this could be going out o the frying pan into the fire. What happened to the Auroracoin project? Is it DOA?
    I agree with you & Zippy that handing over the power to create money to the government would be like jumping out of a frying pan & into the fire. Of course, central-banks shouldn't have the power to create money but neither should Congress! Those who support free markets should support a free market in money; we should have market-based money, be it gold, silver or whatever else it turns out to be, let the market decide.
    Last edited by Paul Or Nothing II; 04-02-2015 at 01:53 PM.
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    Except, fractional reserve banking doesn't create money anyway......



    I agree with you & Zippy that handing over the power to create money to the government would be like jumping out of a frying pan & into the fire. Of course, central-banks shouldn't have the power to create money but neither should Congress! Those who support free markets should support a free market in money; we should have market-based money, be it gold, silver or whatever else it turns out to be, let the market decide.
    A fully nationalized national bank is still better than our fed in the same way that fully socialist single payer healthcare is better than Obamacare. Neither is good, but the question is which one is worse? I think the fascist half government half private, secret system is worse. It'd be jumping from the fire into the frying pan, perhaps?
    I too have been a close observer of the doings of the Bank of the United States...When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank...You are a den of vipers and thieves. I have determined to rout you out, and by the Eternal, I will rout you out!

    Andrew Jackson, 1834

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    Except, fractional reserve banking doesn't create money anyway......

    ...
    Actually, it does, with the ability to Loan money into existence. Fractional Reserve Banking only puts a restriction on how much money and debt can be generated out of thin air depending on the existing Reserve Requirements.

    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    This is definitely the model we should be following.
    It's heading that direction and sooner than you probably realize.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by willwash View Post
    A fully nationalized national bank is still better than our fed in the same way that fully socialist single payer healthcare is better than Obamacare. Neither is good, but the question is which one is worse? I think the fascist half government half private, secret system is worse. It'd be jumping from the fire into the frying pan, perhaps?
    In general, I don't particularly agree with the practice of "choosing the lesser evil", that kind of attitude is why we're stuck with a two-party system, & that's why America in the situation it is, economically.

    Besides, between Congress & a central-bank, Congress is hardly the "lesser evil"; central-bankers have at least a little bit of an intelligence so they inflate more rationally but most politicians are totally ignorant with respect to economics so Congress will be worse. Governments love spending, they buy votes with it, the worst thing that we can do is to hand them blank checks that create money out of thin air.

    Handing over the power to create fictional-money, from central-banks to politicians, will just give the paradigm of fictional-money one more chance, one more chance to fail miserably as it always has, so why waste time by supporting fictional money at all? Why not keep insisting on a truly sound, market-based money-system?
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

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