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Thread: Astonishingly awful S.C. decision lets the government seize all your assets before trial

  1. #1

    Exclamation Astonishingly awful S.C. decision lets the government seize all your assets before trial

    Oh, just shut the $#@! up and go to jail, willya? - Prosecutor Friendly.



    Astonishingly awful Supreme Court decision lets the government seize all your assets before trial.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/t...-before-trial/

    Radley Balko

    27 Feb. 2014



    I’ll just defer what others have already said about the court’s ruling in Kaley v. U.S. this week.

    At Slate, here’s Chanakya Sethi:



    Writing for a six-justice majority in Kaley v. United States, thus concluded Justice Elena Kagan that a criminal defendant indicted by a grand jury has essentially no right to challenge the forfeiture of her assets, even if the defendant needs those very assets to pay lawyers to defend her at trial. In an odd ideological lineup, the dissenters were Chief Justice John Roberts and the more liberal Justices Stephen Breyer and Sonia Sotomayor.



    The Kaleys’ saga began more than nine years ago when Kelli, a medical device salesperson, learned that she was under investigation by federal authorities for stealing devices from hospitals. Kelli admits she took some devices and later sold them with Brian’s help, but she says the devices she took were unwanted, outdated models that the hospitals were glad to be rid of — in effect, that she couldn’t steal something that was given to her. (It’s not a crazy argument. In fact, it worked for a co-defendant, who was quickly acquitted by a jury after the government failed to find even a single hospital that claimed ownership of the allegedly stolen goods.)






    With charges looming, the Kaleys sought an estimate from their lawyers of how much mounting a defense would cost. The answer: $500,000. (That figure may seem high, but sadly the government agreed it was reasonable.) The Kaleys took out a home equity loan and used the $500,000 to purchase a certificate of deposit, which they planned to spend on lawyers.

    Then came the grand jury indictment and with it a nasty surprise: an order freezing essentially all their assets, including the CD that was meant to pay their legal bills. The only assets exempt from the order — Kelli’s retirement account and their children’s college funds — weren’t enough to cover the $500,000 estimate. And if the Kaleys liquidated those funds, they’d have owed $183,500 in tax penalties. The bottom line: They could no longer pay for their lawyer of choice even though, as the government agreed, that’s what the Sixth Amendment right to counsel protects. . . .

    The Kaleys have tried only to keep the assets they want to use to pay for a lawyer, based on the Sixth Amendment. They initially had some success. A judge questioned why the government sought to freeze the entire CD when only $140,000 could be linked to the proceeds of the Kaleys’ allegedly criminal enterprise. The government’s response came just a few days later in the form of a new grand jury indictment adding a charge of conspiracy to commit money laundering. That allowed the government to say the entire $500,000 should be frozen because the funds were “involved in” the underlying theft. The lower courts went along.

    Harvey Silverglate, writing on the case last fall in the Wall Street Journal:


    The Kaleys were confident that they would prevail at trial if they could retain their preferred lawyers. A third defendant did go to trial with her counsel of choice and was acquitted. But the Justice Department made it impossible for the Kaleys to pay their chosen lawyers for trial.

    The government insisted that as long as the Kaleys’ assets—including bank accounts and their home — could be traced to the sale of the medical devices, all of those assets could be frozen. The Kaleys were not allowed to go a step further and show that their activities were in no way criminal, since this would be determined by a trial. But the Kaleys insisted that if the government wanted to freeze their funds, the court had to hold a pretrial hearing on the question of the legality of how the funds were earned.

    The Kaleys complained that the asset freeze effectively deprived them of their Sixth Amendment right to the counsel of their choice — the couple couldn’t afford to hire the defense that they wanted. Prosecutors and the trial judge responded that the Kaleys could proceed with a public defender. This wouldn’t have been an encouraging prospect for them, for while public counsel is often quite skilled, such legal aid wouldn’t meet the requirements the Kaleys believed they needed for this complex defense. Choice of counsel in a free society, one would think, lies with the defendant, not with the prosecutor or the judge.

    New York defense attorney Scott Greenfield:


    In considering the Court’s adherence to beloved legal fictions, one of which is that a grand jury indictment conclusively proves the existence of probable cause to believe that a crime occurred and the defendants committed the crime, the majority reduced the issue before it to an absurdity. What about the presumption of innocence? What about the right to counsel of choice? What about the constraints of forfeiture to the proceeds of crime?

    Meh. It’s as if someone mumbled during their post argument conference, “you know, if we cut her a break, it’s going to look like we no longer have faith in grand jury indictments. Since everybody already knows they’re argle-bargle, that won’t end well. It looks like we have no choice here.” . . .

    Then there is the substitute proceeds question, where the idea that what the government is seizing is the proceeds of crime gets blind-sided by the desire to grab anything they can get their hands on. And in whatever amount a prosecutor can claim based on his most fertile imagination. Reality has no place in forfeiture.

    But what about due process, the opportunity for full and fair litigation of a disputed issue? Silly rabbit, tricks are for kids. Once the grand jury issued an indictment, there is nothing left to litigate. It’s sacred . . . .

    . . . giving a defendant any opportunity to challenge the government’s advanced impoverishment would deprive the government of its critical interest in making sure that there were assets to be seized on the back-end, after the Catch-22 was completed upon conviction, thus proving how right they were to restrain the assets in the first place.

    But that due process thing? That right to counsel thing? That Constitution thing? Stop complaining. The grand jury indicted, and that’s good enough reason to deprive a defendant of the money to fight. Get over it.

    Jacob Sullum at Reason, writing before this week’s decision came down:


    For people facing criminal charges, freedom not only is not free; it is dauntingly expensive. The Kaleys’ lawyers estimate that a trial will cost $500,000 in legal fees and other expenses. The Kaleys had planned to cover the cost with money drawn from a home equity line of credit-until the government took it.

    Technically, the government has not taken the money yet; it has merely “restrained” it, along with the rest of the home’s value, in anticipation of a post-conviction forfeiture. But the result is the same for the Kaleys: They can no longer afford to pay the lawyers they chose and trust, the people who have been representing them for eight years and are familiar with the details of their case . . .



    The Kaleys are not ready to surrender. They want their day in court with the counsel of their choice. Toward that end, they argue that the Sixth Amendment, which guarantees the right to counsel, and the Fifth Amendment, which prohibits the taking of property without due process, require that they have an opportunity to challenge the legal basis of the proposed forfeiture before they go to trial.

    An adversarial hearing is especially important in this situation because prosecutors have a financial stake in forfeitures, which help fund their budgets. Given the weakness of the case against the Kaleys, it’s not clear who is guilty of theft here: the defendants or the government.

    And from Chief Justice John Roberts’ dissent:


    An individual facing serious criminal charges brought by the United States has little but the Constitution and his attorney standing between him and prison. He might readily give all he owns to defend himself.

    We have held, however, that the Government may effectively remove a defendant’s primary weapon of defense — the attorney he selects and trusts — by freezing assets he needs to pay his lawyer. That ruling is not at issue. But today the Court goes further, holding that a defendant may be hobbled in this way without an opportunity to challenge the Government’s decision to freeze those needed assets. I cannot subscribe to that holding and respectfully dissent.

    The odd 6-3 lineup had Roberts, Breyer and Sotomayor in dissent.
    “Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee



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  3. #2
    Is it time yet? Were this me I guarantee that it would be. There would probably never be another post.

  4. #3
    In an odd ideological lineup, the dissenters were Chief Justice John Roberts and the more liberal Justices Stephen Breyer and Sonia Sotomayor.
    The thought has occurred to me that the Supreme Court has started to operate like Congress, where they negotiate who gets to be the good guys and bad guys on every decision.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  5. #4
    seems from reading the article that a proper legal defense is out of reach for most of us. $500,000 to prove that something was given to you.

  6. #5
    "Raving Roland Freisler" the infamous bombastic Nazi Judge would be proud!



    Thomas Jefferson,
    "And what country can preserve it liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, unless people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms, the tree of liberty must be refreshed time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
    Even Hypocrite president Abraham Lincoln,
    This country, with it's institutions, belong to the people which inhabitant it. When they shall grow wary of their existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their constitutional right to dismember or overthrow it.
    The American Dream, Wake Up People, This is our country! <===click

    "All eyes are opened, or opening to the rights of man, let the annual return of this day(July 4th), forever refresh our recollections of these rights, and an undiminished devotion to them."
    Thomas Jefferson
    June 1826



    Rock The World!
    USAF Veteran

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    seems from reading the article that a proper legal defense is out of reach for most of us. $500,000 to prove that something was given to you.

  8. #7
    The really amazing thing is that John Roberts actually voted the right way for once.

  9. #8
    Silly mundane; they aren't "your assets", they are "our assets" that we only let you hold onto for awhile.



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  11. #9
    WTF? Everyone is entitled to a Public Defender. It's not like you don't get your own Lieyer. Just don't count on them being the John Grisham "underdog" that is gonna give half a $#@!.

  12. #10
    The whole saga is sad but not surprising.

    After egregious abuse of civil forfeiture laws, government at all levels is operating under the base assumption that all property is GOVERNMENT property.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by KCIndy View Post
    The whole saga is sad but not surprising.

    After egregious abuse of civil forfeiture laws, government at all levels is operating under the base assumption that all property is GOVERNMENT property.
    "Assumption", hell. It IS all government property.

  14. #12
    "All your life and property are belong to us" ~SCOTUS
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  15. #13
    [APOLOGIST] The system isn't perfect, but it's the only one we got. [/APOLOGIST] So, it's a fvcking monopoly.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    "Assumption", hell. It IS all government property.
    We are all, nothing more than serfs, tripping about only at the Noble's permission.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    "Assumption", hell. It IS all government property.
    We are all, nothing more than serfs, tripping about only at the Noble's permission.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    The really amazing thing is that John Roberts actually voted the right way for once.
    He's a politician... poison, potion, poison...

    If you ask me, he's trying to build some Bastian of credibility with the word out he's been bribed or coerced with his ObamaCare taxes, You Have No Rights, and of course "We Love SuperPACs" affirmatives.
    The American Dream, Wake Up People, This is our country! <===click

    "All eyes are opened, or opening to the rights of man, let the annual return of this day(July 4th), forever refresh our recollections of these rights, and an undiminished devotion to them."
    Thomas Jefferson
    June 1826



    Rock The World!
    USAF Veteran



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  20. #17
    Is there anyone here who believes that government in the United States is legitimate in even the least measure?
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Is there anyone here who believes that government in the United States is legitimate in even the least measure?
    Put me down for...NO.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by KCIndy View Post
    The whole saga is sad but not surprising.

    After egregious abuse of civil forfeiture laws, government at all levels is operating under the base assumption that all property is GOVERNMENT property.
    I was thinking about property rights, when that GOP pumped-up superstar phony, Paul Ryan pitched that people who "Allegedly owe the IRS" you are now a prisoner within the borders. When Ryan was constantly using the excuse "Government Employees" who owe the IRS, I knew this was truly targeting the people of the U.S.. So, there's zero due process in a court of law, all under the pretext of a government thug organization that targets specific groups/individual? How's that appeal to the citizen, that an agency caught conducted such discriminating targeting? You are accused and live in an open air prison, which is justifiable, accordingly to Congressman Paul Ryan. lol

    How Republican of Ryan...
    How conservative of Ryan...

    PS: Confirmation what sealed the deal that Paul Ryan is a big government STATIST SHILL, was a few weeks ago when he tried peddling his Amnesty Immigration Bill as not being "Amnesty" with Washington DC TV Sunday morning propagandist, CBS' Bob Schieffer. The Stroke on steroids.
    The American Dream, Wake Up People, This is our country! <===click

    "All eyes are opened, or opening to the rights of man, let the annual return of this day(July 4th), forever refresh our recollections of these rights, and an undiminished devotion to them."
    Thomas Jefferson
    June 1826



    Rock The World!
    USAF Veteran

  23. #20
    no such thing as innocent until proven guilty if they can seize assets before found guilty.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    The really amazing thing is that John Roberts actually voted the right way for once.
    It was his turn.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Is there anyone here who believes that government in the United States is legitimate in even the least measure?
    Ummm...no.

  26. #23
    All this over some $#@!ing used hospital equipment? This is so $#@!ed I can't even put it words anymore. Everyone is a criminal for everything and the authorizes are exempt. Those are the only laws. The end.
    Dishonest money makes for dishonest people.

    Andrew Napolitano, John Stossel. FOX News Liberty Infiltrators.


    Quote Originally Posted by Inkblots View Post
    Dr. Paul is living rent-free in the minds of the neocons, and for a fiscal conservative, free rent is always a good thing
    NOBP ≠ ABO

  27. #24
    This cartoon, though TSA centered, summarizes the current constitutional situation:

    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The thought has occurred to me that the Supreme Court has started to operate like Congress, where they negotiate who gets to be the good guys and bad guys on every decision.
    Started?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    Perhaps the most important lesson from Obamacare is that while liberty is lost incrementally, it cannot be regained incrementally. The federal leviathan continues its steady growth; sometimes boldly and sometimes quietly. Obamacare is just the latest example, but make no mistake: the statists are winning. So advocates of liberty must reject incremental approaches and fight boldly for bedrock principles.
    The epitome of libertarian populism

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Is there anyone here who believes that government in the United States is legitimate in even the least measure?
    The Constitutionalists do, last I checked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    We are all, nothing more than serfs, tripping about only at the Noble's permission.
    I can hear the Anti-Federalists yelling "We told you so!" from beyond the grave.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  32. #28
    I actually GASPED out loud. I was actually shocked to read this. I know I shouldn't be anymore, but it hit the $#@!ing Supreme Court and failed. Oh my. Oh my.

    And I read the rest hoping I misinterpreted what I read.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    I can hear the Anti-Federalists yelling "We told you so!" from beyond the grave.
    It haunts me in my dreams.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    It haunts me in my dreams.
    As it should, brother.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

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