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Thread: The EPA and refrigerant regulations

  1. #1

    The EPA and refrigerant regulations

    This reeks of a conspiracy to me....




    Feeling the chill: EPA ban on common coolants has lawmakers, industry worried

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...cmp=latestnews

    Lawmakers and industry groups are worried fast-approaching Environmental Protection Agency rules banning certain gases used in commercial refrigeration and air conditioners could have a chilling effect on business.

    The EPA is looking to impose the new rules starting in January 2016, restricting refrigeration coolants commonly found in grocery stores, restaurants and cars -- not only in fridges and air conditioners but also vending machines and insulation.

    Critics, though, complain the proposed rules would force commercial refrigeration to shift from what's known as hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) to alternative coolants -- only a few years after they were told HFCs were the best alternative to ozone-depleting gasses.

    And they’re worried about the tight timetable, calling the January 2016 deadline “arbitrary and capricious.”

    “That [deadline] puts everyone in a difficult position, with manufacturers not knowing how to spend their resources and dollars,” said Stephen Yurek, president and CEO of the Air Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute.

    “We just can’t go to our members and tell them not to worry about it.”

    Rep. Kyle Whitfield, R-Ky., chairman of the House energy and power subcommittee, is also raising concerns, sending a letter to the EPA last week asking for more information about the rules.

    “I understand the consensus among the affected companies in the refrigeration, motor vehicle and insulation industries is that the proposed compliance requirement would cause considerable economic harm and job losses, and may increase rather than reduce safety for the American public,” he wrote.

    Part of the problem is industry voices say they can’t keep up with federal rules that dictate what is and what isn’t killing the ozone layer and spewing dangerous greenhouse gasses into the air.

    More than 20 years ago, the EPA, under the guidance of the Montreal Protocol, decided to end the use of hydrochlorofluorocarbons (HCFCs) because they were accelerating ozone depletion. At the time, HFCs were considered a better alternative because they are safer for the ozone.

    But now, HFCs are said to be contributing to greenhouse gas emissions 1,430 times more damaging to the climate than carbon dioxide, as the demand for utilities using HFCs in developing nations rises.

    “If HFC growth continues on the current trajectory, the increase in HFC emissions is projected to offset much of the climate benefit achieved by phasing out ozone-depleting substances,” the EPA has stated. It estimates commercial refrigeration accounts for approximately 32 percent of global HFC use.

    The EPA issued the new proposed rules (as an amendment to the Clean Air Act) in July 2014, and opened them up to public comment. The agency has not said when the final rules will be announced. The EPA did not return a request for comment.

    Whitfield, in his letter, said not only are there concerns with the phase-out but there were concerns with the potential alternatives – one being a specific, flammable alternative gas. Aside from the refrigerants, all foam-blowing sprays used for insulation must be HFC-free by January 2017, and motor vehicle air conditioners by 2021.

    Any new construction after the deadline will have to incorporate machines using HFC alternatives. While retail owners will be allowed to use their existing machines with HFCs after January 2016, they won’t be able to buy replacement parts for the old technology, and will eventually have to transition all equipment to adjust to the new coolants.

    Whitfield contends it’s a costly process and “American consumers will bear much of the cost of the proposed rule” through higher prices and less energy efficiency. He doesn’t even know if the new rules would be “legal” under the Clean Air Act.

    Avipsa Mahapatra, international climate policy analyst at Environmental Investigation Agency, does not agree with Whitfield’s assessment. She said good alternatives are out there, and supermarkets are already taking advantage of them in Europe and Canada and in scattered stores in the U.S.

    “It makes good business sense,” she said, insisting that the replacement gases are more efficient, and safer, than the HFCs. She pointed out that globally, HFCs are being phased out, and said the U.S. is in a great position to lead the shift.

    Already, major chemical and technology companies like DuPont, Coca-Cola and Honeywell have signed on, with millions of dollars, to make the transition work.

    “The [current] technology is becoming obsolete,” Mahapatra told FoxNews.com. “I do not believe this new rule would kill business. If anything it is an amazing opportunity for American businesses to be leaders. In five, 10 or 15 years, when the rest of the world is looking to buy new technology, they will look toward to the U.S. to buy it.”

    Yurek said, for his association, it’s not necessarily the rules but the time frame that has them scratching their heads.

    “We understand we have to move to refrigeration [coolants] that are available, and that have low global warming potential,” he said. The institute has also pledged $5 million for research and development to find such alternatives. “We want to limit the environmental impact.”

    However, “there is all sorts of pressure” to move now, and without widely approved alternatives.

    “Everybody is researching and trying to find the alternative that provides the best efficiency and performance – and we don’t have that yet,” Yurek said. “[The deadline is] coming fast. We want to comply but it is so disconcerting.”



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  3. #2
    If congress would get off it's dead ass and assume the role it is supposed to play, there would be less of this nonsense.

    What are we paying these $#@!s for anyway, if it is just the bureaucracy that rules us, by decree and mandate, now?

    Regulation without Representation.

  4. #3
    Meanwhile, stock up on your 134A while you can.

  5. #4
    Ecoterrorist Partnership Authoritay. Doing all it can to destroy economic growth to benefit climate change/One World Order special interests.

  6. #5
    I posted on this article. I think the first thing that should happen is that Congress should cut the EPA's utility budget. No heat or AC, no refrigerators, coffee makers, or soft drink machines. See how long that lasts.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  7. #6

  8. #7
    Someone's favor is being called in. EPA also said the air was safe to breath after 9/11. This agency is worthless and needs to go!
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  9. #8
    If global warming is a scam, why do we need coolants?



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    If global warming is a scam, why do we need coolants?
    Because in the summer it is hot--some places hotter than others.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  12. #10
    70's THE ICE AGE IS COMING WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE !!!! .....
    80's OZONE !!!! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!! BAN HAIR SPRAY....
    90's R13 !!!!!! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE !!!!!
    2000's .. GLOBAL WARMING WE'LL ALL BE DEAD THE SKY IS FALLING !!!!!

    Only Al Gore can save us with the first real push for GLOBAL TAXES, of which billions will/would line his pockets through the exchange he
    co created.

    Freedom is no good without TYRANNICAL GLOBALISM....


    Three Cheers for the NEW WORLD ORDER ,,,,,HIP HIP ....







    , ,

  13. #11
    EPA is the only alphabet agency I trust;

    When RADIATION LEAKAGE BECOMES INCREDIBLY OVER THE TOP PPM dangerous, they raise the unsafe levels to SAFE X's 1000's .

    See what they did there , God Bless Corrupt Government , their heart is always in the right spot.


    , ,

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    70's THE ICE AGE IS COMING WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE !!!! .....
    , ,
    Not true.
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/ice-...termediate.htm

  15. #13
    Of course...this is another implementation of Agenda 21..and UN policies in the United States.

  16. #14
    I just sent a check to The New World Order Global Cooling Corporation ATTN: Chicken Little, and dated it 1977 so they'd know waht to use it for.



    , ,

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by echo1 View Post
    Of course...this is another implementation of Agenda 21..and UN policies in the United States.
    I said that already.
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5832980

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    I just sent a check to The New World Order Global Cooling Corporation ATTN: Chicken Little, and dated it 1977 so they'd know waht to use it for.



    , ,
    not backed by scientific consensus.



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  20. #17
    I REALLY don't see this happening. R404A has only been around since the mid to late 90's. and now they are going to ban it?
    get real.
    R-404A was the only good one of the lot for commercial refrigeration. nearly everything is running it now. (we don't use 134A anymore AF)(but it is still good for cars and domestic appliances. )
    what they are pushing is CO2, but it is only in the pilot stage.
    R-410A (puron) is the "golden child" it has been in the domestic market since the late 90's and is only now being forced into the commercial sector.
    there are no refrigeration applications for it that I know of.

    all of these different gasses, (freon) are making it tough on the young guys. us old dogs were trained when there were only 3. (high, medium and low)
    personally, I am getting out of the business, (sorta) and moving in a new direction.

    in the same way that it happened to electronics, they seem to be getting rid of real tech's.
    and making everything "plug and pray"

    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    If global warming is a scam, why do we need coolants?
    Because billions of people rely on a safe food supply that requires refrigeration and refrigerants.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    I REALLY don't see this happening.
    Yeah, that's what everybody said about R12.

    (we don't use 134A anymore AF)(but it is still good for cars and domestic appliances. )
    Yah that's all I was referencing, automotive use, since I don't fuss around much with stationary systems.

    The new "green" refrigerant mandated by EU and EPA is just ducky...all new cars have to use R1234yf.

    Joy.

    Regulation without Representation.
    “Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Because billions of people rely on a safe food supply that requires refrigeration and refrigerants.
    this is true.
    while they ALL operate on the same principle. (vapor compression)
    refrigeration and A/C equipment differ,
    in the fact that refrigeration equipment has to run in all weather.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yeah, that's what everybody said about R12.



    Yah that's all I was referencing, automotive use, since I don't fuss around much with stationary systems.

    The new "green" refrigerant mandated by EU and EPA is just ducky...all new cars have to use R1234yf.

    Joy.

    Regulation without Representation.
    yeah, I laughed my lmao when I heard that one! R1234yf. 1234 YourFucked!

    it is still vapor compression btw.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    yeah, I laughed my lmao when I heard that one! R1234yf. 1234 YourFucked!

    it is still vapor compression btw.
    If cars had these again, most AC use would not be required.


  26. #23
    check this $#@! out. an adjustable TXV? oh, now we are having fun!

    http://www2.dupont.com/Refrigerants/...steon_Eval.pdf

    I can make sense of those stupid charts if you like. in a sealed vessel, temperature and pressure are the same thing.

    what matters is the BTU content per Lb evaporated.
    peace.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    If cars had these again, most AC use would not be required.

    you will get a big argument out of Suze over that one.
    here in the south, our women are hot.


    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    If cars had these again, most AC use would not be required.
    If cars had these they'd stay icy cold in the summer time with engine off.


    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    If cars had these they'd stay icy cold in the summer time with engine off.

    WTF?

    was that?

    )in case you have NOT noticed, I am HVACTech(

    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    WTF?

    was that?

    )in case you have NOT noticed, I am HVACTech(

    You have never heard of the "Icy Ball" refrigeration system?

    All it needs is a fire.



    http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/H...HomeBuilt.html

    http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/crosley_icyball.html

    Crosley bought the rights to the Icyball refrigeration idea, and brought it to market. Powel Crosley had a gift for recognizing great ideas and gift for marketing. Crosley built thousands of Icyballs in at least two factories, one in the United States and one in Canada. Icyballs have been spotted throughout North America and as far away as Africa. The Canadian made Icyballs carry a tag indicating that they are Deforest Crosley Icyball, those made in the USA are labeled Crosley Icyball.

    The Icyball is an intermittent heat absorption type of refrigerator. A water/ammonia mixture is used as the refrigerant . Water and ammonia combine easily. So, they combine in the hot ball at room temperature.

    When the hot ball is heated, for about 90 minutes, the ammonia evaporates first because it has a lower boiling point than water. The other cylinder is in water to help condense the ammonia in the cold ball. When the balls are fully charged, the cold ball is placed in the insulated box, as the ammonia evaporates to recombine with the water in the hot ball it removes heat, cooling the inside of the refrigerator for 24+ hours. A hole in the cold ball was for a special ice cube tray.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    not backed by scientific consensus.
    dear PRB.
    sir. I am having a REAL hard time understanding something..
    perhaps YOU can explain it to me sir.

    what does "cold" mean?

    is there a metric that I can use to understand this word?



    after nearly 30 years in the HVAC business. why don't YOU explain it to me.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    in the same way that it happened to electronics, they seem to be getting rid of real tech's.
    and making everything "plug and pray"

    I see more and more people saying HVAC equipment is bad and needs replacing. I think the increase is not the typical rip off people and make a sale (Which is far too common) but more because they just can't diagnose a problem.

    As for this, I browsed the referenced article and it didn't say any specific gases. I looked at the EPA site and found the program mentioned and 410a and others are not mentioned as being phased out. They're just listed as acceptable replacements for R22 and other previous HCFCs.
    “…let us teach them that all who draw breath are of equal worth, and that those who seek to press heel upon the throat of liberty, will fall to the cry of FREEDOM!!!” – Spartacus, War of the Damned

    BTC: 1AFbCLYU3G1dkbsSJnk3spWeEwpqYVC2Pq

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    If global warming is a scam, why do we need coolants?
    Before air conditioning , as an example , Houston was not a large city .And not so long before that it was a buffalo wallow. So you may be onto something , with no air conditioning , all of the commies may have just ended up in one location , like San Diego or something. This would have been preferable to me .LOL

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