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Thread: Wikileaks Posts Entire Secret Trade Deals OnLine - Liberals Stroking Out

  1. #1

    Wikileaks Posts Entire Secret Trade Deals OnLine - Liberals Stroking Out

    Wikileaks has posted the entire contents of the 3 trade deals currently in secret negotiations, and TNR has a serious case of the vapors because the deal would privatize entire sectors of services now controlled by governments, stop new licensing requirements and mean that signatories would not be able to pass new laws and regulations in many existing industries.

    From the libertarian standpoint, it doesn't hurt as much as it helps. From the leftist standpoint, it put too much power in the hands of business. From my standpoint, it will just create more "too big to fail" enterprises.

    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...ices-agreement

    That’s perhaps TiSA’s real goal—to pry open markets, deregulate and privatize services worldwide, even among emerging nations with no input into the agreement. U.S. corporations may benefit from such a structure, as the Chamber of Commerce suggests, but the impact on workers and citizens in America and across the globe is far less clear. Social, cultural, and even public health goals would be sidelined in favor of a regime that puts corporate profits first. It effectively nullifies the role of democratic governments to operate in the best interest of their constituents.
    Profits are simply the best gauge of the value that society places on goods and services, not some evil that must be combatted.
    Last edited by angelatc; 06-09-2015 at 11:27 AM.



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  3. #2
    That doesn't sound too bad.

    I'm all for privatizing industries and taking Government out of the picture so long as one group doesn't have a monopoly, like the Federal Reserve.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by muh_roads View Post
    That doesn't sound too bad.

    I'm all for privatizing industries and taking Government out of the picture so long as one group doesn't have a monopoly, like the Federal Reserve.
    My biggest fear is that it will turn over regulatory authority to a UN-type body, which seems far more likely than governments banding together to stop regulations.

  5. #4
    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

    He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  6. #5
    So, then essentially, this means, as we've already discussed many times here, that western corporations can sue away the sovereignty of foreign nations. Right? I mean, I'm open for correction if anyone views that any differently. This is mercantilism 101.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    My biggest fear is that it will turn over regulatory authority to a UN-type body, which seems far more likely than governments banding together to stop regulations.
    There are other things going on. We're seeing traditional allies flock toward the Asian Infrastructure Development Bank and the BRICS Bank like mad. But, at the same time we're also seeing nations align themselves in a way in which they get a vote in the UN. And, so, that's huge. I've spent a great deal of time explaining this in the BRICS thread. Of course, nobody fuggin pays attention. Heh...

    Anyhow. I see that you're looking to spin this into a left/'right paradigm. I'll likely not participate in that circus. But, I'd agree with you that there are some geo-political outliers. Big ones. And I think that those outliers are going to lead to WWIII. Not in the sense of bullets and bombs but in terms of...oh...lets say space war.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-09-2015 at 12:13 PM.

  8. #7
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    This is where the Chinese firms come in:

    The TPP allows corporations to directly sue our country if federal, state or local laws, government actions or court rulings are claimed to violate new rights and privileges the TPP would grant to foreign firms. Firms from TPP nations operating here could attack U.S. regulations over cancer-causing chemicals or environmental concerns before tribunals comprised of corporate lawyers that rotate by day and night between acting as "judges" and representing corporations attacking governments. These decisions then cannot be challenged in U.S. courts -- and U.S. taxpayers will get stuck with the bill. So much for our precious sovereignty!
    Last edited by AuH20; 06-09-2015 at 12:30 PM.

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    Big Pharma can't have generic drugs gumming up the price structure:

    Prescription drug costs will increase. The TPP includes terms that would limit access to generic drugs and curtail government power to limit the price of drugs. See Public Citizen's report "The Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPP) threatens access to affordable medicines."



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  11. #9
    Is "stroking out" a euphemism for something?

  12. #10
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    You know what's extremely amusing about the left's reaction to TPP? The fact that they are recoiling in fear to this TPP initiative that allegedly opens up competition to 'Foreign Service Providers.' In other words, the fiefdom known as the U.S. Postal Office would have to prove it's mettle on the world stage. So they love the fact that our country is being inundated by foreigners with no allegiance to it's prior heritage, but now that their legalized rackets are suddenly under threat, they are immediately concerned about foreign influence. Schadenfreude I say. You wanted this. Time to sit down and eat every last disgusting morsel. Cheers for the New World Order.
    Last edited by AuH20; 06-09-2015 at 12:25 PM.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    So, then essentially, this means, as we've already discussed many times here, that western corporations can sue away the sovereignty of foreign nations. Right? I mean, I'm open for correction if anyone views that any differently. This is mercantilism 101.
    True, but mercantilists have a record too, and its pile of bodies is much smaller. Fewer broken up lemonade stands, and when they locked up someone for being black, they were at least honest about their reasons.
    If we're being pragmatic here then I say bring on some of the old fashioned mercantilism.
    Hell, for that matter, bring back King George III.

    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Is "stroking out" a euphemism for something?
    LOL I like where your mind may have been going, but no, it just means having a stroke.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Is "stroking out" a euphemism for something?
    bursting aneurysms?

  15. #13
    TiSA Transparency Negotiating Text

    This is the secret January 2015 draft of the Trade in Services Agreement (TiSA) Transparency Annex, including negotiating positions. TiSA is currently under negotiation between the United States, the European Union and 23 other countries. The Agreement creates an international legal regime which aims to deregulate and privatize the supply of services - which account for the majority of the economy across TiSA countries. The draft Annex aims to make governments more transparent to global commercial actors, creating obligations to notify and consult with transnational corporations on decisions and measures which may affect their interests. This text dates from shortly before the 11th round of TiSA negotiations held from 9-13 February 2015 in Geneva, Switzerland.
    Download the PDF for Analysis of Annex on Transparency Negotiating Text
    Well, that's not ironic.....

    Analysis on TISA Transparency Text dated 23 January 2015
    (updated from the 16 April 2014 Transparency Text)
    There is a deep irony whenever governments make commitments to ‘transparency’ in contemporary
    pro-corporate treaties that are negotiated under conditions of extraordinary secrecy. TISA is one of
    the most extreme examples, with the Parties pledging to keep the documents secret for five years
    after a final agreement comes into force or the negotiations are formally abandoned.1
    Some
    governments are already releasing their own and joint documents; others are hiding behind the
    secrecy pact and refusing to be held accountable.
    ‘Transparency’ in this TISA text means ensuring that commercial interests, especially but not only
    transnational corporations, can access and influence government decisions that affect their interests
    – rights and opportunities that may not be available to local businesses or to national citizens. They
    may want to stop or change government decisions they don’t like, or rally to support those that are
    being challenged.
    Chapters or provisions on ‘transparency’ have become increasingly common in recent free trade and
    investment agreements. In addition, there will be ‘transparency’ provisions in specific TISA
    annexes, such as financial services2
    or domestic regulation.3
    They impose cumulative obligations on
    governments.
    The leverage that foreign corporations exercise over governments is already a sore point in many
    countries. TISA would add more opportunities that go far beyond the limited GATS provision on
    transparency, both in their content and by providing entitlements to private firms.4
    If its champions
    have their way, this will end up applying to the entire WTO membership, including many
    developing and least developed countries.
    The leaked text has an escalating scale of obligations. The following describes the most aggressive
    versions of the proposals, unless otherwise indicated. ‘Interested persons’ is code for commercial
    interests.

    https://wikileaks.org/tisa/transpare...cy-Article.pdf
    Last edited by Origanalist; 06-09-2015 at 12:35 PM.
    "The Patriarch"

  16. #14
    Makes me wonder if this wasn't leaked on purpose to get certain groups to support it and then the final bill changed to screw everyone up. Its still the very Liberal Obama for the people who care for labels pushing this. A man who hasn't come up with one good idea in his term in office.

    And lest we forget, he is still pushing for higher minimum wage and a deal on climate change. How very free market and libertarian of him. I say its either someone is using wikileaks or they are in on it.

  17. #15
    In related news ISIS is hiring corporate lawyers...

    -t

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by muh_roads View Post
    That doesn't sound too bad.

    I'm all for privatizing industries and taking Government out of the picture so long as one group doesn't have a monopoly, like the Federal Reserve.
    Secret transnational agreements not available to the public sounds extremely bad to me. We have no idea nor any input as to the final results.
    "The Patriarch"



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  20. #17
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    See the Maastricht Treaty. It started off in a similar manner and eventually the EU was created. I have no doubts that TPP is based on a similar strategy. First, weave global commerce together and then follow it up with the governmental coalescence.

  21. #18
    Anyone a William Gibson fan?

    Corporations more powerful than governments sounds just ducky!

    -t

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    This is where the Chinese firms come in:
    I have to review the docs but that sounds like the lynchpin of these 'trade agreements'. Allowing foreign (read: global) corporations the ability to strike down existing US laws ex post facto to facilitate their exploitation of the country they are operating in. Anything that inhibits their business, such as labor laws, export laws, environmental restrictions, etc. Chinese mining corps won't like our export rules. Manufacturing won't like our labor laws.

    Coming soon to a city near you. FOXCONN USA! Hence why cities are being built up in condo 'stack and pack' configs at a feverish pace, where public transport moves everyone around inside the glass bubble of the city, and few can escape since cars will slowly be done away with in favor of "green alternatives" of public transport. Agenda 21...

    Manufacturing will come back to the US. Just as long as you don't mind living in a 300sqft condo and working 14 hours a day for peanuts. Just look at FOXCONN to see what the future of US cities holds.
    Last edited by devil21; 06-09-2015 at 02:12 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  23. #20
    We'll learn a lot (perhaps much more than we really want to know) from what the GOP controlled Senate does with this (treaty?).

  24. #21
    WikiLeaks offering cash for leaks on Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal
    As of early Wednesday, at least 421 people have donated $36,000 for the cause
    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...ip-trade-deal/

    "The treaty aims to create a new international legal regime that will allow transnational corporations to bypass domestic courts, evade environmental protections, police the internet on behalf of the content industry, limit the availability of affordable generic medicines, and drastically curtail each country's legislative sovereignty," WikiLeaks said in a statement.

    WikiLeaks releases secret TISA docs: The more evil sibling of TTIP and TPP
    The new agreement that would hamstring governments and citizens even further.
    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...-ttip-and-tpp/

    WikiLeaks has released 17 secret documents from the negotiations of the global Trade in Services Agreement (TISA), which have been taking place behind closed doors, largely unnoticed, since 2013. The main participants are the United States, the European Union, and 23 other countries including Turkey, Mexico, Canada, Australia, Pakistan, Taiwan and Israel, which together comprise two-thirds of global GDP.

    Significantly, all the BRICS countries—Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa—are absent, and are therefore unable to provide their perspective and input for what is essentially a deal designed by Western nations, for the benefit of Western corporations. According to the European Commission's dedicated page: "TiSA aims at opening up markets and improving rules in areas such as licensing, financial services, telecoms, e-commerce, maritime transport, and professionals moving abroad temporarily to provide services."

    TISA's focus on services complements the two other global trade agreements currently being negotiated in secret: the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP), and the corresponding deal for the Pacific region, the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), which deal with goods and investments. Like both TTIP and TPP, one of the central aims of TISA is to remove "barriers" to trade in services, and to impose a regulatory ratchet on participating nations. In the case of TISA, the ratchet ensures that services are deregulated and opened up to private companies around the world, and that once privatised, they cannot be re-nationalised.

    The 17 documents released today include drafts and annexes on issues such as air traffic, maritime transport, professional services, e-commerce, delivery services, transparency, and domestic regulation, as well as several documents on the positions of negotiating parties. The annexe on e-commerce is likely to be of particular interest to Ars readers, since, if adopted, it would have a major impact on several extremely sensitive areas in the digital realm.
    Thou shalt not...

    For example, the question of data flows—specifically the flow of European citizens' personal data to the US—is at the heart of disputes over the EU's proposed Data Retention rules, the Safe Harbour agreement, and TTIP. Here's what Article 2.1 of TISA's e-commerce annexe would impose upon its signatories: "No Party may prevent a service supplier of another Party from transferring, [accessing, processing or storing] information, including personal information, within or outside the Party’s territory, where such activity is carried out in connection with the conduct of the service supplier’s business."

    What that means in practice, is that the EU would be forbidden from requiring that US companies like Google or Facebook keep the personal data of European citizens within the EU—one of the ideas currently being floated in Germany. Article 9.1 imposes a more general ban on requiring companies to locate some of their computing facilities in a territory: "No Party may require a service supplier, as a condition for supplying a service or investing in its territory, to: (a) use computing facilities located in the Party’s territory."

    Article 6 of the leaked text seems to ban any country from using free software mandates: "No Party may require the transfer of, or access to, source code of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition of providing services related to such software in its territory." The text goes on to specify that this only applies to "mass-market software," and does not apply to software used for critical infrastructure. It would still prevent a European government from specifying that its civil servants should use only open-source code for word processing—a sensible requirement given what we know about the deployment of backdoors in commercial software by the NSA and GCHQ.

    Without WikiLeaks, the presence of these far-reaching proposals would not have been revealed until after the agreement had been finalised—at which point, nothing could be done about them, since the text would be fixed. With the publication of these documents, civil society has an opportunity to find out what is being discussed behind those closed doors, and to analyse and discuss the implications. Whether the negotiators will take account of what ordinary people think is another matter.


    TTIP explained: The secretive US-EU treaty that undermines democracy
    A boost for national economies, or a Trojan Horse for corporations?
    http://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy...nes-democracy/

    -t

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    My biggest fear is that it will turn over regulatory authority to a UN-type body, which seems far more likely than governments banding together to stop regulations.
    I think we can pretty much count on this happening.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by tangent4ronpaul View Post
    WikiLeaks offering cash for leaks on Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal
    As of early Wednesday, at least 421 people have donated $36,000 for the cause
    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...ip-trade-deal/
    From arstechnica.com:

    The secret-spilling site is offering as much as $100,000 to somebody who forwards to WikiLeaks the 26 chapters of the 29 that have not been disclosed so far.
    So only 3 of the 29 chapters have been reportedly leaked so far (not the "entire secret trade deal"). Probably the 3 chapters that were "planned" to be leaked?? I don't see any new news on this since 6/3....
    There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
    (1 John 4:18)

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    My biggest fear is that it will turn over regulatory authority to a UN-type body, which seems far more likely than governments banding together to stop regulations.
    Wouldn't that require Senate approval also?



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Created4 View Post
    From arstechnica.com:



    So only 3 of the 29 chapters have been reportedly leaked so far (not the "entire secret trade deal"). Probably the 3 chapters that were "planned" to be leaked?? I don't see any new news on this since 6/3....
    Don't know if they paid the reward, just pointing out that they were crowdfunding for it.

    I think they got the whole thing now.

    -t

  30. #26
    Also seeing as how the information contained in the bill is already made public, I guess there is no need continuing with the secrecy right?

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Also seeing as how the information contained in the bill is already made public, I guess there is no need continuing with the secrecy right?
    No TPP there, only TiSA so far

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    From the libertarian standpoint, it doesn't hurt as much as it helps.
    You couldn't pick the libertarian standpoint out of a lineup in three tries. There is only one other person on this board dumbass enough to believe that handing sovereign regulatory powers to a cartel of anti-competitive Fascists is a good idea.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    You couldn't pick the libertarian standpoint out of a lineup in three tries. There is only one other person on this board dumbass enough to believe that handing sovereign regulatory powers to a cartel of anti-competitive Fascists is a good idea.
    Well. I'll say this. I actually think that angela is one of the, if not, THE most "libertarian" person(s) on the entire board. This is a problem for me. And it is why I've found myself gradually separating myself from my political peers in the movement or demograph. I'm seeing libertarianism hijacked much in the way that we saw with the TEA PARTY.

    Libertarianism , unfortunately, has been relegated to serving as the stalking horse for our mercantilist friends in various circles. Now, with this so called trade agreement, all it really does is protect our mercantilist friends from free trade. It protects them from a free market. And, I know that many here know that. No sense in going over it.

    At the end of the day I maintain that the entire thing will fall flat on it's face. Meaning this power grab. The rest of the world isn't having any of it. But the great thing about it is that we get to see who is whom in our "libertarian" group. We get to see who really understands the nature of foreign policy and who doesn't. Further, we get to see who would contribute further to such a failure in foreign policy and who would not. And, really, it is unfortunate that it has to be that way. But it must be that way.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-09-2015 at 11:48 PM.

  34. #30
    Every one in the group could just do what New Zealand did and uni-laterally remove all tariffs and other trade barriers and subsidies.

    It actually worked really really well.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

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