NYT Expose On Chinese Working Conditions In Apple Factories - Microeconomic Help Please

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Originally Posted by tttppp

I actually think most people in America are really just slaves. If you think about traditional slavery, slaves do work in exchange for food and shelter and pretty much nothing else. Well the typical employee today makes just enough money to get a place to live, food to eat, clothes, and a car to get to and from work. Once you pay for those things, you generally have nothing left. A typical job gives you just enough money so you can afford to make it back to work the next day, no more. So you are basically a slave.

The only people who are not slaves either own their own company or have worked their way to the top of the corporate ladder. The rest are mostly slaves.

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So your definition of a slave is a person who does not have net savings after working? Or does it matter if the alternative is worse (such as being shot or allowed to starve dead)?

Traditional slaves do not get vacation, their choice of clothes, car and choose where to live. They also have little choice how many children and pets they can have. Am I wrong?

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Originally Posted by onlyrp

So your definition of a slave is a person who does not have net savings after working? Or does it matter if the alternative is worse (such as being shot or allowed to starve dead)?

Traditional slaves do not get vacation, their choice of clothes, car and choose where to live. They also have little choice how many children and pets they can have. Am I wrong?

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I don't buy clothes and cars for fun. I buy them because they are a necessity. You have really low standards for living if you think you are free just because you have enough money for clothes and a car to get to work. Those are the bare essentials. Its not like I can go without clothes and a car to get to work.

I define not being a slave as someone who has a decent amount of money and time to buy the things they want and don't need. Being able to pick the colors of a car you NEED for work is not freedom. Being able to chose the colors of clothes you where to work and to function in society is not freedom.

As far as choosing where to live, its not that easy. Usually you need to save up some money to make a significant move. You need to not be a slave to do that.

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Originally Posted by tttppp

I don't buy clothes and cars for fun. I buy them because they are a necessity. You have really low standards for living if you think you are free just because you have enough money for clothes and a car to get to work. Those are the bare essentials. Its not like I can go without clothes and a car to get to work.

I define not being a slave as someone who has a decent amount of money and time to buy the things they want and don't need. Being able to pick the colors of a car you NEED for work is not freedom. Being able to chose the colors of clothes you where to work and to function in society is not freedom.

As far as choosing where to live, its not that easy. Usually you need to save up some money to make a significant move. You need to not be a slave to do that.

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yes, I have very low standards, but quite above the standards we considered "acceptable" in 1950 or earlier. You can say I'm a cheap loser, but you can't say I'm in debt or unhappy.

You dont need money to move, because if you stop paying rent you'll be kicked out of your home. By then, you can usually save 3 months of rent. I DO have money to buy things I don't need, but love to have, but even then, its quite minimal, like you said, I'm very low standard.

Is having a wife, kids, and a dog, a necessity or a luxury? Just asking your opinion.

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Originally Posted by onlyrp

yes, I have very low standards, but quite above the standards we considered "acceptable" in 1950 or earlier. You can say I'm a cheap loser, but you can't say I'm in debt or unhappy.

You dont need money to move, because if you stop paying rent you'll be kicked out of your home. By then, you can usually save 3 months of rent. I DO have money to buy things I don't need, but love to have, but even then, its quite minimal, like you said, I'm very low standard.

Is having a wife, kids, and a dog, a necessity or a luxury? Just asking your opinion.

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I've moved before without having a job. I had to live off savings until I found a new job. It does require money to move unless you get transferred from your current job.

The dog may be a luxury, but a wife and kids are a necessity. If we denied everyone kids we'd go extinct.

I never said you can't be happy as a slave. But if your work only gives you enough money to make it back to work, then you are a slave.

I don't see how continuing to buy Chinese products will make Chinese lives better on the whole. Yes, China has a larger middle class, but the majority of the population is still incredibly poor and their standards of living are no better than they were in the 70's.

The only way to solve problems like this is for customers to be willing to pay more for goods that were produced ethically. Then the only way for companies to compete would be to have decent working conditions.

But right now, customers are simply concerned about who has the lowest price. I don't see how that mindset will bring peace and prosperity to this world.

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Originally Posted by tttppp

I've moved before without having a job. I had to live off savings until I found a new job. It does require money to move unless you get transferred from your current job.

The dog may be a luxury, but a wife and kids are a necessity. If we denied everyone kids we'd go extinct.

I never said you can't be happy as a slave. But if your work only gives you enough money to make it back to work, then you are a slave.

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"if denied everyone kids", I didn't say that. Where did you get from "Not a necessity = denied everyone"??
No, my job makes me more than enough to get back to work, or else I wouldn't do it. It'd be a waste of time and wear me down for nothing to save.
I agree, if you only make enough to pay for gas and food, you should quit and get food stamps. That is, if you can manage to have rent paid for or can accept sharing a house with somebody nice enough to you.

Being able to afford your own place to live is not "just enough to get back to work", it's your home when you don't work, if you don't want it, give it up and save $1000 a month.

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Originally Posted by BenIsForRon

I don't see how continuing to buy Chinese products will make Chinese lives better on the whole. Yes, China has a larger middle class, but the majority of the population is still incredibly poor and their standards of living are no better than they were in the 70's.

The only way to solve problems like this is for customers to be willing to pay more for goods that were produced ethically. Then the only way for companies to compete would be to have decent working conditions.

But right now, customers are simply concerned about who has the lowest price. I don't see how that mindset will bring peace and prosperity to this world.

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I have the same problem, I'm not sure making the employers more money will encourage them to pay the workers better. Although NOT making them money will encourage them to either hire less or pay less, ultimately hurting both parties.

You are correct that customers mostly only care about what they want, either quality or aesthetics or cost. And no, it wouldn't bring peace and prosperity to the world, it shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by onlyrp

"if denied everyone kids", I didn't say that. Where did you get from "Not a necessity = denied everyone"??
No, my job makes me more than enough to get back to work, or else I wouldn't do it. It'd be a waste of time and wear me down for nothing to save.
I agree, if you only make enough to pay for gas and food, you should quit and get food stamps. That is, if you can manage to have rent paid for or can accept sharing a house with somebody nice enough to you.

Being able to afford your own place to live is not "just enough to get back to work", it's your home when you don't work, if you don't want it, give it up and save $1000 a month.

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Where are you going to live, on the streets? You need to take a shower before you go to work, put on clean clothes, etc. You need a place to live. If I could go without a place to live, I'd do that and save my money.

If you can save a decent amount of money at your job, then you are not a slave. But keep in mind that you are the exception. Especially if you can have kids and save money. That is very rare.

You implied having kids is a luxury. Having kids is a necessity. Without having kids, everyone would go extinct.

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Originally Posted by tttppp

Where are you going to live, on the streets? You need to take a shower before you go to work, put on clean clothes, etc. You need a place to live. If I could go without a place to live, I'd do that and save my money.

If you can save a decent amount of money at your job, then you are not a slave. But keep in mind that you are the exception. Especially if you can have kids and save money. That is very rare.

You implied having kids is a luxury. Having kids is a necessity. Without having kids, everyone would go extinct.

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I can live in a van, and I know people who have done it. It's not pleasant, but in all cases we arrange with a friend to shower and laundry, some uses gyms for showering, I prefer to use a trusted friend's house. SOrry I forgot to add or make clear, I have no wife and kids, and I intend to keep it that way, unless I get richer. If I did, I'd be in lots of debt and lots of trouble, it's a sacrifice I make to get by.

Unless you have some genetic bias towards your own children, there's no shortage of children who need parents, if you concern is actually extinction. But whether having your own or adopting, children cost money either way.

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Originally Posted by onlyrp

I can live in a van, and I know people who have done it. It's not pleasant, but in all cases we arrange with a friend to shower and laundry, some uses gyms for showering, I prefer to use a trusted friend's house. SOrry I forgot to add or make clear, I have no wife and kids, and I intend to keep it that way, unless I get richer. If I did, I'd be in lots of debt and lots of trouble, it's a sacrifice I make to get by.

Unless you have some genetic bias towards your own children, there's no shortage of children who need parents, if you concern is actually extinction. But whether having your own or adopting, children cost money either way.

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We are supposedly in a free market economy. The cost of getting a home, clothes, food, and car to work shouldn't eat all your money. I shouldn't be forced to live in a van to get by. I should have all the basics with money left over. In a real free market economy, the costs go DOWN over time. The costs of the basics should be minimal because they are the basics. For example, why the hell can't they make a car for under $1,000 that requires no fuel? The auto industry is 100 years old and gets the same fuel mileage and cost as it did 100 years ago. I don't want a car that costs $20,000-$40,000. I only need it for the basics. Why isn't there a company focusing on this niche or what I would like to call the majority?

If getting a GOOD job only gets you the basics, we might as well be in a communist country. In pure communism, you are guaranteed a job and in return for you work you are guaranteed the basics.