Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God


You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.
-1 Corinthians 7.23

it is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in princes
-Psalm 118.9


To Him who divided the Red Sea in two, For His mercy endures forever; 14 And made Israel pass through the midst of it, For His mercy endures forever; 15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea,For His mercy endures forever; 16 To Him who led His people through the wilderness,For His mercy endures forever;17 To Him who struck down great kings, For His mercy endures forever; 18 And slew famous kings,For His mercy endures forever—
-Psalm 136 13-18



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The kings of the earth set themselves,And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us.”
-Psalm 2 2-3

The original American motto was “rebellion to tyrants is obedience to god” with a picture of Moses drowning pharaohs army in the red sea. Israel could either follow Moses and God into the promise land under his authority and law, or they could return to Egypt under a tyrannical form of government under pharaoh. A biblical principle is to overcome evil with good Rom 12 17-21 1 Peter 2 21-24. God looks for people to oppose injustice Ezk 22 29-20 such as tyrants.

“As government actions become more and more evil, the cause of resistance towards government becomes more and more righteous .”
-Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission

“The duty to resist unjust law is the product of christian thought.”
--Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government

You overcome tyrannical governments with Gods law of liberty James 1.5. God gave his preferred governmental system in the old Testament. His laws and not mans should be followed Est 3.8. The purpose of the law is to restrain evil men, not to give evil men Gods ordination. God himself overthrow many tyrannical governments and instituted those who would follow his whole law James 2.10. God gave rights and liberty to man being created in his image that are not to be violated by man. A violation of a God given unalienable right is a violation of man being created in the image of God. So man made government that has violated Gods laws for mankind is in rebellion towards the King of Kings. Any nation that follows Gods law will be blessed Deuteronomy 28.1-14 Psalm 33.12 and any nation that does not, will be cursed Deuteronomy 6 15-57.

They set up kings without my consent;
they choose princes without my approval.
-Hosea 8.4

It is an abomination to kings to do evil,
for the throne is established by righteousness.
-Proverbs 16.12

Like a roaring lion or a charging bear
is a wicked ruler over a poor people.
-Proverbs 28.15

There are reasons for just war Ecclesiastes 3.8 proverbs 20.18 24.6 Numbers 21 21-24 Luke 14.32 Exodus 22.2 and the conquest narratives for example. God himself overthrow governments multiple times in the old Testament even by the use of warfare.

The LORD is a man of war
-Exodus 15.3

Stephen and Paul affirmed and commended Israel for fighting in those OT wars in acts 7.46 13 19 and Heb 11 33-34. God raised up Moses, Gideon, Ehud, Jephthah, Sampson, Esther, and Deborah to trow off tyrannical governments and restore Israel to the king of kings, and they were all praised in Hebrews 11.

23 But Gideon said to them, “I will not rule over you, nor shall my son rule over you; the Lord shall rule over you.”
-Judges 8.23

When Jesus returns he will overthrow the governments of the world united against him.

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [Jesus] was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
-Revelations 19.11

Other forms of resistance in the bible took place such as In acts chapter 5 Peter replied to the officials “We must obey God rather than human beings!” and they put Gods word above mans Acts 4.19. 2 Kings 11 the tyrant queen Athaliah declared treason against those who followed God and Jehoiada the priest had her executed. In Daniel 6 the prophet hears of an unjust law, and deliberate and openly rebels against the law that contradicted gods law. Jeremiah was arrested for treason for preaching gods word calling on Israel to surrender instead of going to war as the king wanted. Rahab disobeyed her king and was praised in Hebrews 11 and James 2.25 as did the midwives Hebrews 11.23. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-dgo disobeyed government authority. In 1 Kings 21 Elijah is “the enemy” of the king Ahab. In 2 Kings 1 the king sends captains to Elijah to come down from the hill to speak with the king [a very easy reasonable request]. Elijah and the angel of the lord [Jesus] by killing the kings men twice for a total of 100 men. Peter disobeyed authority in Acts 5.29. And the men of god withstood king Uzziah

18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the Lord God.”
-2 chronicles 26.18

“When the state commands that which God forbids, or forbids that which god commands, we are to obey God rather than man.”
-Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government

God often sent prophets to Kings who stepped outside of gods law. Samuel was sent to confront Saul, Nathan and Gad to David, Isiah to Manasseh. The apostles were in and out of jail and killed for perching Jesus. In 2 Corinthians 11 32-33 Paul escaped government officials rather than submit. Jesus resisted authorities when they often tried to kill him. Instead of submitting to Herod's massacre of the babies of Bethlehem, Joesph obeyed god and brought his family to Egypt. The early Christians fled instead of submitting to injustice Matt 10.23. Jesus was killed for treason and crucified “king of the Jews” as there was no king but Cesar. Paul preached Jesus as king and was accused of treason

and Jason has welcomed them into his house. They are all defying Caesar’s decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus.
-Acts 17.7

And they began to accuse Him, saying, “We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that He Himself is Christ, a King.
-Luke 23.2

The Maccabees Revolt

Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
-Psalm 144.1

Let the godly exult in glory;
let them sing for joy on their beds.
6 Let the high praises of God be in their throats
and two-edged swords in their hands,
7 to execute vengeance on the nations
and punishments on the peoples,
8 to bind their kings with chains
and their nobles with fetters of iron,
9 to execute on them the judgment written!
This is honor for all his godly ones.
Praise the Lord!
-Psalm 149 5-9

Jesus celebrated Hanukkah [festival of lights/ festival of dedication] in remembrance of the Maccabees refusal to confirm to the pagan government and society. The Maccabees are praised in the “hall of faith” in Hebrews 11 35-36 and v 38. In the books of Maccabees the Greek government over Israel sought to outlaw Judaism and assimilate Jews into the Greek culture so they would not be so rebellious. “Those who obey the Torah rather than the king were publicly put to death.” “Jerusalem was no longer free but became a slave.” The government authority wanted to recreate Jews in its own image as all centralized nations do 1 Macc 1.41. Those Jews that conformed with Greek culture and obeyed the government, were those who “hated their own nation.”

In this climate comes the celebrated Maccabees who fought a war of resistance against Greek rule who stayed separate as a people following the laws of Moses and would not conform to the governments demands. They fought battles and recaptured the temple. In 1 Macc 2 19-22 the Maccabees followed Moses laws and ordinances not the Kings. And in v 24 Mattathias driven by a righteous anger killed a assimilated Jew and one of the Kings officials and torn down government placed alters. In short

“They rescued the law out of the hands of the Gentiles and kings, and they never let the sinner gain the upper hand.”
-1 Macc 2.48

These were the actions of those praised in Hebrews 11 and that Jesus found cause to celebrate. And according to the Talmud, God did a miracle to keep the Menorah lit for eight days for those brave men who loved God more than Government.

The American Revolution and the The Black Robed Regiment

It is time for You to act, O Lord,
For they have regarded Your law as void.
-Psalm 119.126

“The American revolution occurred in a religious atmosphere...historical truth that religion was a fundamental cause of the American Revolution.”
-Carl Bridenbaugh historian

“The righteous rebellion began in the churches before the streets of Boston...in 1776 mixing religion and politics was a common as drinking smuggled tea. The colonial clergy created the religious climate that made it possible for an American revolution to take place.”
-James Adams author journalist

God ordained government as the family and church, why than would he tell Christians to stay out of government? The pastors in America understood that tyranny at any level, left unchecked, would grow to tyranny against the church, and finally the gospel [we are seeing this in America today]. If the state is elevated above the family and church, it will in time wipe out those opposing god ordained institutions. That is why centralized government always attack the family and the church. It should not be allowed outside its biblical guidelines. If the state becomes the authority instead of the bible on what the state can do, than because there is no higher authority, than the government thinks itself god. There is nothing it cannot touch. It can take away any right from anyone. It thinks it must not just solve all the ills in the country, it must control all modes of behavior and set its own standards. It will regulate the lives to conform to its own image that is beneficial to itself, resulting in more power to itself. People became servants of the state rather than the government servants of its citizens.

This is in drastic contrast to the founders who's view was Governments are instituted among men to protect those unalienable rights that come from a higher authority than man, that is god. The founders constantly acknowledged that biblical higher power that they were accountable to. Man was not the ultimate authority in fact all men were created equal. This philosophy that reorganizes a creator, produces a limited government. Government is not the ultimate authority but is to protect all citizens god given liberty as described in the bible. It also believes that man should alter and abolish a government that is destructive to those rights of the people.

“Pastors were the leaders of the revolution”
-David Barton The American Heritage Series

“England sent her armies to compel submission, and the colonists appealed to haven.”
-John Thornton historian 1860

The black robed regiment was what the British during the American revolution called pastors who would lead their congregations out on the field of battle in their black robes. The British blamed the revolution on the pastors in America and treated them worse when captured compared to a regular soldier. They were blamed for leading the recruiting, and igniting the war. Churches were targeted and burned across America or converted into horse stables. When the British landed in NY of the 19 churches 10 were burned and 9 were desecrated. King George said of the revolution “This is nothing more than a Presbyterian rebellion.”

when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’
-Ezekiel 33 3-6

The pastors of early America saw themselves as shepherds of gods people and the watchmen of their flock in Ezekiel 33. When they saw an evil coming contrary to the bible, no mater from what sector, they sounded the alarm. Everything in the declaration of Independence such as all men created equal, the consent of the governed etc was already preached widely by pastors before 1776 for proper biblical government. Likewise what the British were doing such as taxation without representation and the stamp act were shown to be forms of tyranny in the bible. These were the topics of many sermons in America that incited people towards the revolution. The reverend John Wise who preached these sermons was credited with the ideas that formed the declaration of independence. When John Adams was asked who was most responsible for the revolution he named the Rev Samuel Cooper, the rev John Mayhew, the Rev George Witfeild, and the Rev Charles Chauncy.

“The preachers of the revolution did not hesitate to attack the great political and social evils of their day.”
-Frank Moore historian 1862

In Paul Reverse famous ride he rode to the home of the rev Jonas Clark to warn the British were coming. The reason being Clark was the most important political figure in the area in Lexington and Sam Adams and John Hancock were at his house as they often were. Clark helped write the resolution for Massachusetts to separate from britian and also his state constitution. When word came that the British were coming Adams and Hancock asked Clark are your men ready? He answered “ I trained them for this very hour.” The alarm bells rang, the bells were from Clarks church where he was pastor to worn the people and to assembled outside the church. 150 people gathered at the church all men from his congregation and they go off to resits the British. Clark tells his men to let the British firs first because God would not bless an offensive war but you can defend yourself.

Other pastors like John Muhlenburg of Virginia helped raise units and eventually earned the rank of major general. While pasturing his church Muhlenburg gave his last sermon by reading from Ecclesiastes 3 declaring there is a time for peace, but that time is know gone, know is a time for war. He took off his robes and underneath he was wearing his military uniform with his pistols, he asked his congregation, who will come with me? 300 of his congregation joined him. His brother Frederick was also a pastor and while pastor served as Americas first speaker of the house of representatives. Pastor James Calwdell would fight during the week and than give sermons on sundays fully armed with two pistols daring anyone to take them from him while giving the sermon. Once a battle happened outside his church and him and his congregation were running out of wadding so he ran into the church grabbed the hymnals by Isaac Watts, and yelled “give them watts”.

“No class of men contributed more to carry forward the revolution and to achieve our independence than did the ministers.”
-B.F Morris historian 1864

Objections

Does Romans 13 Teach Unlimited Submission to Government?

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
-Romans 13 1-7


Context

“Modern interpretations of Romans 13 is really quite recent....no Bible passages was ever intended to be taken out of context from the rest of scripture.”
-Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011

“Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from the LORD.
-Jeremiah 17.5

In Israel history the law of God was the government. Kings, Judges, elders were all under the authority of the law. In the old testament Israel to follow Gods law was to live under God himself, as their ultimate sovereign. To follow the law was to have God as king in Israel.

16 When they have a difficulty, they come to me, and I judge between one and another; and I make known the statutes of God and His laws.”
-Exodus 18.16

23 But Gideon said to them, “I will not rule over you, nor shall my son rule over you; the Lord shall rule over you.”
-Judges 8.23

The God of Israel said,The Rock of Israel spoke to me:‘He who rules over men must be just,Ruling in the fear of God.
-2 Samuel 23.3 [also see 1 kings 10.9]

God created government to benefit man Dt 10.13, not man to benefit government. The purpose of the law is to restrain evil men, not to give evil men Gods ordination 1 sam 12 .14. I think our modern version of the “divine right of kings” can be very dangerous and can lead to sever consequences. Romans 13 was used by the church in Germany during ww2 as a reason to submit to Hitler. One pastor who spoke out and was killed for it Dietrich Bonhoeffer rightly said “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”

The protestant reformation would never had happened since it was a rebellion against church and civil authority. It would be odd if God approved of a government that violated his cause and purpose he ordained it to do. If Romans 13 teaches unlimited submission, that would put God against himself and would allow tyrants to rule opposed to his law of justice and peace. It would say God is honoring and helping that witch he says is evil. When a pastor does an evil or a father it is understood as Christians to not to submit to that authority, but if the government does it their authority is not to be challenged. If we obey all the laws and submit to the state, we are making the state God and the highest authority. This is the goal of atheistic progressives and the result of government education

“Many people today are unconsciousley schooled in statism. They think the authority of the civil government is absolute and limitless. They think that rights and law originate with the state.”
-Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government

Israel rejected gods decentralized union of tribes with elected officials in a republican form of government and In Samuel 8.7 God says Israel has rejected him for wanting a centralized monarchy and goes on to tell them of the freedoms lost in their choice.

“Bureaucracy of centralized government grew from almost nothing under Saul to a much more developed structure under Solomon...[Israel underwent] a transition from a somewhat decentralized tribal society to a centralized rule of a king from a capital city.”
-Micheal A Grisanti Professor of old Testament masters Seminary

All Governments today such as the U.S.A are the result of some kind of revolution or overthrow of a previous government. If it is unlawful to overthrow a government than today's governments cannot be legitimate and thus we cannot submit to them as they have no authority. If they are lawful now, than who is to say another overthrow is not lawful or ordained by God? Government started after the fall to protect mankind not to harm them. In Romans 13 Paul is correcting an early christian belief that Jesus did away with Gods law [ the entirety of it, moral, political, etc] than surely no human laws are binding on man either. Paul says this is not the case and the liberty from the sacrificial/dietary laws or at least, the condemnation of the law, are not a license to do as we will and spends the next few chapter on this.

“Paul command to submit to god ordained higher powers simply reaffirms the old testament descriptions of what legitimate government constitutes...Christians were not to use freedom in Christ as an excuses to avoid civil obligations in society of seeking and manning peace.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011

Verse 1

“All this exists by the providential will of god. But their providential existence is not the same as having Gods' approval.”
-Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

They set up kings without my consent;
they choose princes without my approval.
-Hosea 8.4

Romans 13 is not about tyrannical governments or the current roman empire Paul was under. V 1 The powers are meant to enforce Gods law not their own. God instituted government as his minsters [as he did the church and family] and it is right that Christians to obey and acknowledge this, Christians cannot be anarchists [also see book of Judges]. It would be a mistake to assume from V 1 “is” and conclude from it that “it ought to be” the existence of something like a tyrannical government does not make it a right. For example poverty exists, and Christians fight against it, death and disease are here, Jesus fought against them while on earth. Many families and churches misuse their God ordained purpose, that does not make it correct. In 1 Samuel 8 God called a monarchy and evil, he said Israel was rejecting him by accepting that form of government, and yet God ordained it. The right thing to do would be to oppose abuses of god ordained purposes. The example Absalom and King David. God showed those who followed Absalom did so wrongly 2 Sam 16.8 17.14.

“Absalom conspiratorial tactics to rise to power in place of his righteous father, King David did not equate to God-ordained ministerial authority. Even though Absalom held de facto power and the alliance of the kingdom.” - --Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011

God used his people to do this very thing many times, for example Samuel was sent to confront Saul, Nathan and Gad on David, Isiah on Manasseh. Elijah to King Ahab. God raised up Moses, Gideon, Ehud, Jephthah, Sampson and Deborah to trow off tyrannical governments and were all praised in Hebrews 11. The midwives, Daniel, Esther and Gideon did the same. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-dgo as well disobeyed government authority. Rahab disobeyed her king and was praised in Hebrews 11 and James 2.25. I Peter disobeyed authority in Acts 5.29. Samuel was sent to confront Saul, Nathan and Gad on David, Isiah on Manasseh. The apostles were in and out of jail and killed for perching Jesus. Instead of submitting to Herod's massacre of the babies of Bethlehem, Joesph obeyed god and brought his family to Egypt. Jesus was killed for treason and crucified “king of the Jews” as there was no king but Cesar. Paul preached Jesus as king and was accused of treason.

“Higher powers [KJV] are always “under “ or “below” god and never posses gods approval when it contradicts the good purposes of which God ordained government. To hold to the contrary is like saying since God created the power of fire, one can use fire to burn down the homes of his neighbors.”
---Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011

V2

Verse two is speaking not on specific tyrants but the concept of government. Christians cannot be anarchist to oppose government authorities is to oppose Gods will since he created government. For example the midwives on Exodus15-21 were praised for disobedience in Heb 11.23 when Egypt had turned tyrannical. Rahab disobeyed her king and was praised in Hebrews 11 and James 2.25. In 1 Kings 21 Elijah is “the enemy” of the king Ahab. Peter disobeyed authority in Acts 5.29. Danial disobeyed his King in Babylon. Many other examples could be given. The fact is Paul is dealing with the concept of government, not a specific government.

V 3-4

“There are limitations clauses attached to what the apostle Paul says in Romans 13. V3-4 clearly limit the rulers authority”
-Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government

God established law to do his will not theirs. This is what governments should resemble and what is in their jurisdiction. The word “servant” is the same word for deacon. A servant serves his master's will [God] not his own, and the master decided the rules and punishments, that is Gods law. So for example, in Gods law the parents are to educate their children Deuteronomy 6 and Proverbs 22.6. If the state were to educate children they are know stepping outside of their role given by God and in violation of his law. Instead gods servant aught to serve him. This passage is not about dictators or tyrants serving themselves. Satan is called a “higher power” in Ephesians 2.2 as in Romans 3.3. Do we submit to his power? Or do we resits his authority as James 4.7 tells us to do as Peter did in Acts 4 18-19 and also

18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the Lord God.”
-2 chronicles 26.18

“Wrongdoers” are those who who violate the peace and rights of the people. Physical force even to the death penalty can be used by the God ordained state towards those who trample on the god given rights of those peaceful people. This is the sole duty of government.

“Nothing is stated here, or anywhere in the Bible for that matter, witch would expand the rights of the state beyond this simple mandate. Punish wrongdoers with the sword if necessary.”
--Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

Paul was not speaking of the current empire in Rome. If he was he was a false prophet as he said if you do good works you will not have fear of the sword but receive praise. Yet Nero killed thousands just for being Christians. They got the opposite of what Paul predicted. Rome is described as the enemy of god in Daniel 7.7 and spoken of negativity in revelation not as Gods servant. Rome killed Jesus, Paul and Peter those who most spread the gospel.

V5

Given the above, V5 just means a biblical government deserves the support of all believers.

V 6-7

“Caesar may inscribe a picture on a piece of gold, but where Caesar has stolen gold from a rightful holder, it cannot be rightly stated that Caesar is owed the gold coin.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission

Those who are “attending to this very thing” are obeying God. This of course does not make all tax just. If not in line with Gods law. So if a tyrant decides to take a tax from Christians outside biblical law. Such as say a tax to pay for the state to educate children in humanistic, atheistic, materialistic, statist, evolutionary philosophies. That would be an unjust tax. It would be similar to a spectator at a football game who throws his won yellow card on the field when he thinks a call should be made, its not his jurisdiction.

“Nothing in the entire passage has any reference to wicked rulers. It says not one word about rebellious magistrates.”
--Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

“May God be pleased to rid us even in our day from sissified, christinish, play time religion.”
-Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

“Were God to ordain actions which he condemns, God would violate his covenants to all nations and would sanction on one hand what he has condemned on the other.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011

Just Preach the Gospel

Christians are called to preach the gospel but not only the gospel. We are called to preach the whole council of God starting back in Genesis. We no longer live in a christian America or ancient Israel where the audience accepted the old testament as divinely given that would enable us to point to the messiah or preach the gospel alone. We must adjust our message as Paul did in Acts 17 based on the audience. We must decern the times and realize the gospel alone to an atheist in a pagan American worldview, is foolishness. In my life their was a time when I wanted to believe in a God but if one “preached the gospel” to me I would reject it. Because it was foolishness. Evolution had disproved the bible. It was not until I was shown that science in fact disproves evolution and confirms genesis, that I than concluded if the bible got it right on creation, than it must also have it right on salvation, what must I do to be saved.

“Countries that were once Christian have become secular (atheistic) in their public institutions.How has this happened? I think there are several factors:The invention of a creation myth that allowed for aggressive atheism. This is cosmic evolution.God did not create; the universe made itself. Man invented God. Before Darwin, the only option for someone who did not want Jesus as his Creator and Saviour was deism, belief in an unknowable creator-deity, as opposed to the God of the Bible. This explains why atheists are at the forefront of getting evolution taught without competition in schools and universities.

• This materialistic creation myth took over the universities because it appealed to the intellectual pride that thrives in such institutions—man determines his destiny, not God. And teachers, politicians, government bureaucrats, journalists, and judges got their ‘higher’ education in these institutions.
• Evolutionism then invaded the public school system, because new generations of teachers had been trained in the evolutionized (secular) universities. Aiding and abetting this transformation were those of an atheistic mind-set amongst the ruling elite who promoted secularism as the only ‘fair’ route for taxpayer-funded enterprises. Dissent was easily quashed by appealing to the ‘experts’ (on education, law, science, sociology, etc.) at the universities!
• Meanwhile secularists promoted mass immigration from countries that had no Christian ethos. Then they argued that Christian content had to be removed from public life because it might offend someone who was not a Christian. Complaints from the actual immigrants were rare, but it was another effective lever to impose atheism as the state religion.
• Atheists have been very actively promoting their views (secularism) at every level of society, but especially in academia, politics, and the media.
• Meanwhile, Christians have been sleeping on the job of being salt and light in the world, with the widespread development of a ‘private faith’ mentality where ‘faith’ is in a separate box to academia and politics. There is often a lot of activity ‘in church’, but much less outside.

-Secularism is atheism Don Batten


In today's liberal, pagan, moral relativist society the gospel is seen as foreign. For example the God of the bible is against woman's rights and evil, not pro life. God is evil and hates gays simply because they were born that way, homosexuality is no sin. The laws of a nation effects its people and how they view right and wrong and how receptive they are to the gospel. Just a few decades ago the vast majority saw homosexuality as an evil and rightly illegal. Today in San Antonio if you openly oppose gay marriage you are guilty of “hate crimes” and are fined and cannot participate in politics. In earlier times in the united states when we had more biblical laws, the vast majority of the populace was christian. In the Bible over and over the leaders of Israel would either lead the nation astray and reject gods law, or they would bring the people back to gods law and revival would occur. Laws will lead people astray or towards god, that is why God judges nations and leaders as well as individuals.

“The gospel is never heard in isolation. It is always heard against the background of the culture milieu one lives. If one lives in a culture or nation where Good laws prevail that mirror the law and justice of God, one can more readily understand the claims of the gospel than in a culture or nation where laws contradict the law and justice of God.”
--Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government

During the great awakening where large scale conversions took place in America the pastors and sermon topics were not salvation based more than at any other time. They were on relevant, cultural topics of their day on all areas of life. Whatever was happening at that time , they applied the bible to that subject so people could know how to think biblically about it. The American people could see what the bible says on a subject and see it as a better way and that is comes from God. The bible is the best book for politics, education, family life, science, law and any subject it is applied to. Gods whole council should not be rejected and its the whole council of God that saves and created disciples not converts. Today we usually say someone is saved if they respond to the gospel message and recite the sinners prayer. However this prayer was started in the 19th century, how did people get saved before that?

What About the Sermon on the Mount?

The LORD is a man of war
-Exodus 15.3

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.[Means properly understand and interpret] 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
-Mathew 5

What about the sermon on the mount where Jesus calls us to love our enemies, and turn the other cheek? Many seem to think these are new commands to believers part of the new covenant and thus the old moral code and laws no longer apply. However there is nothing new here, Jesus is simply giving the proper understanding of various OT laws, The OT teaches the same principles.

You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.
-Leviticus 19.18

30 let him give his cheek to the one who strikes,
and let him be filled with insults.
-Lamentations 3.30

“If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return it. If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it.
-Exodus 23 4-5

Therefore any events or actions during the Old Testament God saw as consistent [as did Jesus in his sermon on the mount] with the principles of loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek. This same Old Testament allowed for the death penalty, the conquest of Canaan and the overthrow of multiple tyrannical governments. The NT does not bring about new laws [ but a new covenant] and is salvation centered, while the OT is where God laid out his political laws. I think our modern understanding of the sermon on the mount is off. I also think our modern ideas of what love is [usually being nice] is not God's idea of love is. For example Elijah made fun of the prophets of Baal in 1 kings. In Psalm 69 24- 28 David prays his enemies would be blotted out of the book of life. Paul wished anyone who preaches contrary to thew gospel to be cursed 1Galatians 1 8-9 and in 5.12 he wishes they would be castrated. In 2 Timothy 4:14 Paul hopes Alexander the Coppersmith would be repaid for his evil works. And in acts 13.10

Then Saul—also called Paul—filled with the Holy Spirit, stared straight at the sorcerer 10 and said, “You son of the Devil, full of all deceit and all fraud, enemy of all righteousness! Won’t you ever stop perverting the straight paths of the Lord?

Jesus used harsh language and often insulted the authorities and his enemies. Calling them vipers, evil, sons of the devil, a fox etc Matt 23.37 12.34 Luke 13.3 John 8.44 Matt 7.6. He also threatened unrepentant men with judgment and hell fire mark 12.9 matt 21.4 11 21-24 18.6.

So when Jesus said “Turn the other cheek”

“”Christ is not directly addressing questions of government and criminal justice in this passage but is speaking of the attitude that individual Christians ought to strive to take toward injustice he suffers. And that is how the passage has traditionally been understood.”
-Edward Fesser Joseph M Bessette by man shall his blood be shed Ignatius press San Francisco 2017

“What Jesus here demands of his followers is a personal attitude to evildoers which is promoted by mercy not justice, witch renounces retaliation so compelling us to risk further costly suffering, which is governed never by desire to cause them harm but always by the determination to serve their highest good”
-John Scott

In John 18 when Jesus himself was slapped in the face he challenged the man's reasons who slapped him. When Paul was slapped in the face in acts chapter 23 Then Paul said to him “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall!”

Are we not to resist evil doers? Jesus contently resisted evil doers. He did this in the temple with the money changers. He did this by casting out demons. Peter resisted Simon magus acts 8. Paul stands up to Elymas in acts 13. We are to overcome evil with good [Rom 12 17-21 1 peter 2 21-24]. In the sermon on the mount Jesus did not get rid of judicial proportionality [eye for eye] or oath tacking, neither did Jesus do away with punishments as he often preached hell fire. Instead he calls us to be generous and forgiving, seeking reconciliation. He is prohibiting a cycle of insults among citizens. Augustine said

“The old precept as well as the new is intended to check the vehemence of hatred and to curb the impetuosity of angry passion...to put a restraint upon a revenges unjust from its excess, the law established the principle of compensation, that the penalty should correspond to the injury inflicted. So the precepts “and eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” instead of to kindle the fire that was quenched, was rather a covering to prevent the fire already kindled from spreading.”

The Sermon on the Mount and Vengeance vs Justice

“What is here commanded is a christian patience under injuries and affronts, and to be willing even to suffer still more, rather than indulge the desire of revenge, but what is further added does not strickley obey according to the letter, for neither did Christ, nor Paul turn the other check”
-Robert Witham and Richard Challoner

Vengeance is a sin and inconstant with loving your enemies. But if motivated by justice , or a desired good outcome, it is not a evil. Giving gifts for good behavior and consequences for bad actions is normal human thought. Christians should be angry at the evils of the world and violations of Gods law, God himself is angry at them this is a good thing showing us created in the image of God. When a robber goes through a house raping, stealing, torturing and finally murdering woman children and men, that should arose anger for its injustice. Therefore if you motives are justice, than that is not a revenge instance.

"For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery and wrongdoing.
-Isaiah 61.8

Forgiveness and Justice

As Christians we are called to forgive as our father forgives us on a personal level between individuals. On a personal level we are always called to forgive when they repent.

So watch yourselves.“If your brother or sistera sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”
-Luke 17 3-4

Therefore repent! Otherwise, I will come to you quickly and fight against them with the sword of My mouth. I gave her time to repent, but she does not want to repent of her sexual immorality.... 22 Look! I will throw her into a sickbed and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her practices. 23 I will kill her children with the plague. Then all the churches will know that I am the One who examines minds and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your works.
-Revelations 2 16, 22-23

Than we can be like our father in haven.

Yahweh—Yahweh is a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger and rich in faithful love and truth, 7 maintaining faithful love to a thousand generations, forgiving wrongdoing, rebellion, and sin. But He will not leave the guilty unpunished
-Exodus 34 6-7

But forgiveness does not mean we dont work against evil and certainty that we don't condone it or allow it. While we are to forgive all, it is not a blind forgiveness that overrides justice and punishments for law breakers and an allowance to sin. God himself sends unrepentant sinners to eternal punishment. Jesus himself did not blindly forgive Mark 14.21 Matt 12.31. Yet even those who repent still must face justice. A distinction is made by God between individual forgiveness, and laws to govern society.

“It is indeed praiseworthy for victims of crime to forgive their debtors, but such personal pardon does not absolve offenders from their obligations to justice. The relationship of the state to the criminal is not the same as that of a victim to an assailant. Governors and judges are responsible for maintaining a just public order.”
-Cardinal Avery Bulles


Render Unto Caesar

15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words. 16 And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully, and you do not care about anyone's opinion, for you are not swayed by appearances.[b] 17 Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” 18 But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? 19 Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius.[c] 20 And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” 21 They said, “Caesar's.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” 22 When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away.
-Matthew 22

The Pharisees and the Herodians are trying to trap Jesus and forcing either one group or the other to go against him. The Paraphrases are anti-Roman control and would like Jesus to say do not pay taxes. But the Herodians [after Herod] are pro roman occupation and their power is dependent on Roman control and if Jesus said not to pay taxes, they could report him to roman authorities for execution. If he says pay the taxes he would lose support among the Jewish people and pharisees. So Jesus gives a vague answer so neither group gets what it wants.
“When Jesus said render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and to Gods the things that are god's he was making clear the civil government has limitations. The state is not the “be all and end all”
--Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government

Me must ask what belong to Caesar? In the American form of government what is Caesar or who is Caesar? In America we the people and the constitution [that our public servants violate every day] are as close to Caesar as it gets. Jesus also said “render unto god what is gods” the whole earth is the lords psalm 24.1 thus even Caesar [or any man in authority] must render to god the ultimate authority. If we rendered all to god nothing would be left for Caesar. What if Caesar had said we need your children for child sacrifice? Should we render? We should render to Caesar what God says belongs to him Romans 13 1-7. We are to resists the devil and wicked rulers and stand on Gods word and proper laws.

“The comparison of scriptures using the same Greek word in Romans 13.6 shows that the phrase for this cause has a conditional application to the action which follows the condition. Proper submission is a determination of rendering therefore unto Caesar the thing which are Caesars and unto God the thing that are god's. Not render to Caesar whatever he says is his. Where Caesar had no authority to govern, we have no duty to submit.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission

“May God be pleased to rid us even in our day from sissified, christinish, play time religion.”
-Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

“Caesar may inscribe a picture on a piece of gold, but where Caesar has stolen gold from a rightful holder, it cannot be rightly stated that Caesar is owed the gold coin.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission


The Old testament Law was Abolished with the new

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
-Matthew 5 17-19

I know that whatever God does, It shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, And nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him
-Ecclesiastes 3 14

This is to say god in the ot was a god of justice and good government, but the god of the new is a god of injustice and wants you to submit to that witch god in the ot declared an evil.

“How can the creator ordain one standard of human conduct based upon God's creation and man's nature before and after Abraham, Moses and David. And then suddenly and drastically establish a contrary standard opposed to god's creation and mans nature.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to 1stvermont again.

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Originally Posted by Swordsmyth

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to 1stvermont again.

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#me2


very well assembled

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Originally Posted by 1stvermont

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God

You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.
-1 Corinthians 7.23

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If you were bought, the latter is moot.

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“As government actions become more and more evil, the cause of resistance towards government becomes more and more righteous .”
-Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission

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Not to mention more perilous.

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“The duty to resist unjust law is the product of christian thought.”
--Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government

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Except nowhere is "unjust" made universally clear and accepted. I know far too many people who think taxation lies well outside the definition of "tyranny".

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God gave his preferred governmental system in the old Testament

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The one with kings and slaves?

Also, if it's "preferred" and people tell Him to piss up a rope, He really has no basis for complaint.

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It is an abomination to kings to do evil,
for the throne is established by righteousness.
-Proverbs 16.12

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Is it not an abomination to have kings, regardless of how they rule?

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Like a roaring lion or a charging bear
is a wicked ruler over a poor people.
-Proverbs 28.15

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Regards,

-Department of Redundancy Department.

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23 But Gideon said to them, “I will not rule over you, nor shall my son rule over you; the Lord shall rule over you.”
-Judges 8.23

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Does tyranny become just with God as tyrant? Is it supposed to be somehow palatable then?

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When Jesus returns he will overthrow the governments of the world united against him.

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Well, then America us über-copulated.

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18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the Lord God.”
-2 chronicles 26.18

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So in that world you needed permission (license) to burn foikkin' incense? The virtue evades me.

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“When the state commands that which God forbids, or forbids that which god commands, we are to obey God rather than man.”
-Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government

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The "state" gives a rat's ass about what God forbids. Bringing this point up in court is unlikely to help in any way, save perhaps to get you committed for a 72-hour observation at the local nut-hatch.

Believe as you wish, but when it comes to making real arguments before real people with the goal of persuading, what has been posted here is by no means the basis for doing so, generally speaking. Employing "God" and other unproven/unprovable or otherwise vague notions as the bases for arguments seeking to address fundamental issues of the eminently practical questions of human relations is an Insta-Loser™. Where such issues are in question, it behooves a man to stick to demonstrable facts and clearly derived principles and their consequences. Even then, I have found that much of the time one is dealing with irrational and/or dishonest people, making even the most carefully crafted arguments in favor of freedom a waste of energy and time.

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Originally Posted by osan

If you were bought, the latter is moot.




Not to mention more perilous.



Except nowhere is "unjust" made universally clear and accepted. I know far too many people who think taxation lies well outside the definition of "tyranny".



The one with kings and slaves?

Also, if it's "preferred" and people tell Him to piss up a rope, He really has no basis for complaint.



Is it not an abomination to have kings, regardless of how they rule?



Regards,

-Department of Redundancy Department.



Does tyranny become just with God as tyrant? Is it supposed to be somehow palatable then?




Well, then America us über-copulated.



So in that world you needed permission (license) to burn foikkin' incense? The virtue evades me.




The "state" gives a rat's ass about what God forbids. Bringing this point up in court is unlikely to help in any way, save perhaps to get you committed for a 72-hour observation at the local nut-hatch.

Believe as you wish, but when it comes to making real arguments before real people with the goal of persuading, what has been posted here is by no means the basis for doing so, generally speaking. Employing "God" and other unproven/unprovable or otherwise vague notions as the bases for arguments seeking to address fundamental issues of the eminently practical questions of human relations is an Insta-Loser™. Where such issues are in question, it behooves a man to stick to demonstrable facts and clearly derived principles and their consequences. Even then, I have found that much of the time one is dealing with irrational and/or dishonest people, making even the most carefully crafted arguments in favor of freedom a waste of energy and time.

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Not moot but highly relevant. If Christ owns you he is the highest authority.


very true.


This is from a christian perspective. so that standard of what is accepted is the bible.


no the constitutional republic with limited government he set up. and he does not like a tyrannical government as my op makes clear neither should Christians. see the following link and the second for biblical slavery.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...cal-Government
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...s-to-the-Bible




no, its an abomination for kings to do evil.



I would say instead this, you can only have liberty with a biblical government that has higher authority than the state that protects mankind from unjust tyrannical laws.

"The fundamental basis of this Nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings which we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”
-Harry Truman


anyone could burn incense, but incense was burned in the temple only by the priest. it was part of separation of powers and brings in theological issues. the point was not that he wanted to burn incense, but that he wanted the state [he was king] to start to control the "religious" aspects of ancient Israel and was stepping outside his bounds.



that is a totalitarian view, it should be more who gives a rat's ass what the state says you can or cannot do when they violate gods law.


You have mistaken the point of this post my friend. this is not to prove god. those kinds of threads i do in the religion section and keep an eye out in coming moths as well for what you ask. I have done a half dozen over their on various topics if your interested. this thread is for Christians and how they should react to tyrannical governments. or for anyone interested in what the bible says about the subject.

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Originally Posted by 1stvermont

Not moot but highly relevant. If Christ owns you he is the highest authority.

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If Christ owns me, I am a chattel slave. I don't think that is what God wants.

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This is from a christian perspective. so that standard of what is accepted is the bible.

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And my point is that the Christian bible is not an absolute authority. It is not a properly reasoned authority. It is a standard that is eminently open to dissection through strong argumentation. Don't misunderstand, while I disagree with much in the bible, especially when it is forwarded as a universal authority for all men, I am in strong agreement with the ethic is espouses. The reasons for both agreeing and disagreeing are the same: reasoned analysis leads me to each conclusion, as well as my skepticism of the rest.

God, whatever/whoever that may actually be, endowed men with the power to develop reason. We were given our brains for reasons that go beyond the hat-rack. Therefore, I choose to use mine, which reason demands I take apart the blind assertions of anyone's words, even "God's". When I apply it to biblical edict, some pass the smell test; some do not.

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no the constitutional republic with limited government he set up. and he does not like a tyrannical government as my op makes clear neither should Christians. see the following link and the second for biblical slavery.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...cal-Government
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...s-to-the-Bible

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Are you suggesting that the bible contains the architecture of a constitutional republic and that it was specified explicitly by God as His preferred scheme for men living in each others' company?

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no, its an abomination for kings to do evil.

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We much part company here. For me, kings are abominations in and of themselves.

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I would say instead this, you can only have liberty with a biblical government that has higher authority than the state that protects mankind from unjust tyrannical laws.

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I think I understand why you believe this, but must point out that you are mistaken. Human civilizations have been by far mostly anarchic, temporally speaking. Those anarchies appear to have worked rather well, particularly in terms of liberty - far and away better than anything men contrived that had walls.

At best, your assertion is incomplete because you fail to make the differentiation between small anarchic groups and much larger collections who come together in the manner of super-organisms. The problem as it has stood for the past sever thousands of years centers on super-organization. There is nothing at all wrong with the practice, in sé. The problems started when men turned their backs on voluntary engagement in such arrangements in favor of forced marches toward whatever vision the tyrant-du-jour had in mind. The pattern is virtually universal since the days of Sumer: one man enslaving another for the sake of his "good intentions". Now, it is possible that Sumer was built on a voluntary basis, but if it is so then something went terribly wrong between that time and today because for most of that interval the so-called leaders have been nothing better than murderous criminals.

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anyone could burn incense, but incense was burned in the temple only by the priest. it was part of separation of powers and brings in theological issues. the point was not that he wanted to burn incense, but that he wanted the state [he was king] to start to control the "religious" aspects of ancient Israel and was stepping outside his bounds.

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Again, I understand your point, but I ask "who says"? Who says only priests can burn incense in the temple? God? If so, why the hell does He not come forward regularly and make it clear He's the fracking boss and that this is what's to be done and why? Taking written word blindly is FAIL^FAIL. Once again, we were given brains and the capacity of logic for a reason. I choose to use them pursuant to what I believe that reason to be, come what may of it. It has lead me to the conclusion that I have no master. If God intended to master me, He would have made me an automaton. Rather, he made me curious and rebellious of masters. Therefore, either God fucked up in a deeply serious manner in architecting me, or much of that which people believe about Him is rank and false, for it cannot be both ways at once in this particular case.

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that is a totalitarian view, it should be more who gives a rat's ass what the state says you can or cannot do when they violate gods law.

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Well HELLOOOOOOOOOOO... That's my point. The "state", being a totalitarian by nature, gives no damn about the purported will of "God". That is the positive reality, which gives no consideration of normative ideals.

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You have mistaken the point of this post my friend. this is not to prove god. those kinds of threads i do in the religion section and keep an eye out in coming moths as well for what you ask. I have done a half dozen over their on various topics if your interested. this thread is for Christians and how they should react to tyrannical governments. or for anyone interested in what the bible says about the subject.

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I would rather say that it is you who have misconstrued the point of mine, which was to show that the bible as a blindly taken standard fails as such.

Convincing people of that which is righteous is nearly impossible with a huge percentage of any population even when you clobber them with unbreakable reason. How much more is the case when the logic is weak. Standing on the soap box, spewing "the bible this..." and "the bible that..." holds little hope of sufficient appeal, and it shouldn't. It is only through the properly systematic development of an argument that honest, if otherwise clued-out, people come to accept a new and presumably better truth in broader numbers.

OSAN Above


I am assuming your not a christian as christians want to be in Christ, we want to live for him out of love. God does not "own" us as a slave and force us to act how he wills, he invites us to a relationship if we want and our desire wants us to follow him more and more.


I could not agree more. I used my brain the same as you did and that led me to acknowledge the bible as the word of god. thus what it says does have authority if the assumption it is from the creator holds true. This is why Christians view it as authoritative. As i said before you have missed the point of this thread. It is not to prove the bible is from god [ keep an eye on the religion section in coming months when that is the topic] but to show what the proper christian response to tyrannical governments is.



I am not, the bible is.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...cal-Government



I agree and disagree. What if we had an infallible king who loved liberty and justice perfectly? of course no human king can do so. But in this age god agrees with you a king is an evil.

but the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. ...10 So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who asked him for a king. 11 And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you [tyranny]He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. 12 He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and someto make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. 14 And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. 16 And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men,[a] and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 17 He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. 18 And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you in that day.”19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us, 20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.21And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the hearing of the Lord. 22 So the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed their voice, and make them a king.”
-1 Samuel 8



so your saying liberty has been maintained outside of divine law? could you give a specific example? i am sure at various times it was held to be so, but that it would trend towards totalitarian. but either way in our modern world i dont see how it could be possible imo. eventually the state will be the highest authority and it may be a generous master allow some "freedoms" but that is not the same as liberty.



yes god and he did make it clear in his law to Israel. Everybody knew it the king knew it as well, he was just doing what kings often do, push his power to more areas. Plus god did say he was the "fracking boss" he gave him leprosy . Yes god gave you logic and brains so you can understand his law and realize it is the best way.You have also correctly used your brain and concluded you are your own master. God has given you free will he will not own you or control you. You rightly rebel against authority.

t is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in princes
-Psalm 118.9

since you reorganize those authorities violate justice and gods law. God did not create man imperfect, man has fallen by sin and separated himself from god.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17.9



Agree, just the reason for my op and why Christians should rebel against the state.



I do not disagree that the bible should not be blindly followed and assumed as authority. neither would the bible.

the simple believes every word: but the prudent man looks well to his going.
-Proverbs 14.15

The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him
-Proverbs 18.17

Test all things; hold fast what is good.
-1 Thessalonians 5:21


I am saying the topic of this thread is not to argue if the bible is true [once more that will be done in the religion section if you go over i have started responding to common objections first] but for Christians who know it to be true, what does it say about tyranny. so unless you can recognize this thread is not directed towards atheists, we will talk past each other.

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Originally Posted by 1stvermont

I am saying the topic of this thread s not to argue if the bible is true [once more that will be done in the religion section if you go over i have started responding to common objections first] but for Christians who know it to be true, what does it say about tyranny. so unless you can recognize this thread is not directed towards atheists, we will talk past each other.

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A couple things.

Firstly, I understand that you are not arguing so, but nonetheless when one puts up the bible as a standard, it must be DEMONSTRATED as valid. Not unlike most of the more pervasive religions, one is called to believe blindly. THAT is the problem. As stupid as people tend to be in such vast numbers, even those dullards have a tacit sense of reason - that blind acceptance is foolishness. "Here, eat this. Trust me, it's not poisonous." Nobody in their right mind takes this on faith, generally speaking.

What I am getting at, and apparently have failed to make the point, is that the practical matter is not whether the bible is true and authoritative, but rather in how one establishes it as such beyond mere and blind faith. As I have written, most people not of that persuasion tend to be resistant even to well constructed arguments that employ facts and solid logic. To expect people to accept a given standard of behavior based on lesser argumentation is not very realistic.

Truth means nothing if people cannot see it or otherwise refuse to accept it as such. This is an eminently practical matter. I've encountered the problem literally thousands of times over the course of my life. People are what they are. Some are ignorant but willing to learn. Others are unwilling, for any of a variety of reasons including but not limited to laziness, fear, and other corruptions of the Self. A few don't have the capacity - pity them. Others still, are simply too wholly welded to whatever beliefs they hold to abandon them for something different, especially if it demands more effort of them.

At the risk of seeming self-aggrandizing, I have built and delivered a few rather virtuoso performances on various sensitive topics. In some cases, reticent parties were at least willing to concede points and admit they had something about which to think. But regardless of how carefully I would employ the Socratic method, leading the "victim" down the chain of reason, gaining his buy-in every step of the way, they would still reject the conclusion to which any intelligent and honest man would have to arrive. That's the nature of dealing with people where touchy subjects are concerned. My point is that anything less compelling than the most adeptly contrived arguments are only going to have even less chance of winning hearts and minds.

Just look at any of the similarly emotional hot-button topics that have people at one another's throats. Abortion may be the king of them, but lets not go there lest the thread be hijacked. How about gun control? I've done some impressive work with those who hate firearms and the people who don't. In most cases, no matter how adroitly I negotiated the logic chain, they would remain married to their hatred, fear, and loathing of guns and all people who fail to hate them equally. It's been so ridiculous to the point that I've had people speak tantamount to, "everything you say I agree with, but I still believe guns must be banned..."

When rationality is so actively avoided, hope wanes to the point of vanishing.

So I guess the thing I failed to ask, shame on me, is what was the point of the OP? If not to convince, then what? If to convince, then your approach is not going to succeed. Been there, done that a thousand times and more. Logic and reason are our best hopes, not the expectation of blind acceptance... and that's just concerning the establishment of consensus on the standard! From there we move into the details - what the standard actually means, which is a whole other can of worms. At the end of the day, people want what they want and will most often abandon any principle of ethics if they think it will get it for them.

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Originally Posted by 1stvermont

so your [sic] saying liberty has been maintained outside of divine law? could you give a specific example? i am sure at various times it was held to be so, but that it would trend towards totalitarian. but either way in our modern world i dont see how it could be possible imo. eventually the state will be the highest authority and it may be a generous master allow some "freedoms" but that is not the same as liberty.

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I've written no such thing. I wrote that temporally speaking, the vast majority of humanity's existence has been lived anarchically. No "state". No "king". No "government". No bible. What they had was clear senses of the sanctity of each individual without the distracting pollution of the manifold heaps of mental bullshit that has increasingly contaminated the intellects of men for thousands of years.

I will add that, contrary to popular belief, the divine cannot be avoided. Therefore, any assertion of "beyond divine law" (taking "law" casually just to be conversational) is absurd on its face, in my mind.

Liberty, I might argue, IS divine law. Therefore, anywhere one finds liberty, one must perforce find the divine.

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Originally Posted by osan

A couple things.

Firstly, I understand that you are not arguing so, but nonetheless when one puts up the bible as a standard, it must be DEMONSTRATED as valid. Not unlike most of the more pervasive religions, one is called to believe blindly. THAT is the problem. As stupid as people tend to be in such vast numbers, even those dullards have a tacit sense of reason - that blind acceptance is foolishness. "Here, eat this. Trust me, it's not poisonous." Nobody in their right mind takes this on faith, generally speaking.

What I am getting at, and apparently have failed to make the point, is that the practical matter is not whether the bible is true and authoritative, but rather in how one establishes it as such beyond mere and blind faith. As I have written, most people not of that persuasion tend to be resistant even to well constructed arguments that employ facts and solid logic. To expect people to accept a given standard of behavior based on lesser argumentation is not very realistic.

Truth means nothing if people cannot see it or otherwise refuse to accept it as such. This is an eminently practical matter. I've encountered the problem literally thousands of times over the course of my life. People are what they are. Some are ignorant but willing to learn. Others are unwilling, for any of a variety of reasons including but not limited to laziness, fear, and other corruptions of the Self. A few don't have the capacity - pity them. Others still, are simply too wholly welded to whatever beliefs they hold to abandon them for something different, especially if it demands more effort of them.

At the risk of seeming self-aggrandizing, I have built and delivered a few rather virtuoso performances on various sensitive topics. In some cases, reticent parties were at least willing to concede points and admit they had something about which to think. But regardless of how carefully I would employ the Socratic method, leading the "victim" down the chain of reason, gaining his buy-in every step of the way, they would still reject the conclusion to which any intelligent and honest man would have to arrive. That's the nature of dealing with people where touchy subjects are concerned. My point is that anything less compelling than the most adeptly contrived arguments are only going to have even less chance of winning hearts and minds.

Just look at any of the similarly emotional hot-button topics that have people at one another's throats. Abortion may be the king of them, but lets not go there lest the thread be hijacked. How about gun control? I've done some impressive work with those who hate firearms and the people who don't. In most cases, no matter how adroitly I negotiated the logic chain, they would remain married to their hatred, fear, and loathing of guns and all people who fail to hate them equally. It's been so ridiculous to the point that I've had people speak tantamount to, "everything you say I agree with, but I still believe guns must be banned..."

When rationality is so actively avoided, hope wanes to the point of vanishing.

So I guess the thing I failed to ask, shame on me, is what was the point of the OP? If not to convince, then what? If to convince, then your approach is not going to succeed. Been there, done that a thousand times and more. Logic and reason are our best hopes, not the expectation of blind acceptance... and that's just concerning the establishment of consensus on the standard! From there we move into the details - what the standard actually means, which is a whole other can of worms. At the end of the day, people want what they want and will most often abandon any principle of ethics if they think it will get it for them.

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who do you think would read this and conclude we must obey what is presented in the op because the bible says so, therefore it must be from god? nobody. no christian would think that is what this post is for. no atheist would think so. How could you possible conclude from my op that it was intended for non Christians to have to obey what the bible says? this thread is clearly on the subject of what the bible teaches on tyrants and how Christians should act towards tyrannical governments. it has nothing to do with anyone who does not see the bible as gods word unless they are simply interested in what the bible has to say on the subject. i apologize if this is unclear in any way.

as to the truthfulness of the bible i have debated hundreds of times and think i have a pretty good handle on how to do so. i do hope you stay around in the religion section if you are interested. i will show you how and why i came to believe it gods word. i will show how illogical its rejection is as well.

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Originally Posted by 1stvermont

who do you think would read this and conclude we must obey what is presented in the op because the bible says so, therefore it must be from god? nobody. no christian would think that is what this post is for. no atheist would think so. How could you possible conclude from my op that it was intended for non Christians to have to obey what the bible says? this thread is clearly on the subject of what the bible teaches on tyrants and how Christians should act towards tyrannical governments. it has nothing to do with anyone who does not see the bible as gods word unless they are simply interested in what the bible has to say on the subject. i apologize if this is unclear in any way.

as to the truthfulness of the bible i have debated hundreds of times and think i have a pretty good handle on how to do so. i do hope you stay around in the religion section if you are interested. i will show you how and why i came to believe it gods word. i will show how illogical its rejection is as well.

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OK, fair enough. I experience cross talking often enough. It's a common human failing... I am prone to it. :)

Show me a thread and i'll tune in. But I will bring up weaknesses, if I find them.

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Originally Posted by osan

OK, fair enough. I experience cross talking often enough. It's a common human failing... I am prone to it. :)

Show me a thread and i'll tune in. But I will bring up weaknesses, if I find them.

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ok great i would love your posts on them. I will send them along. i would love you to take a look at any i have done so far if you wish i like your mindset.

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Originally Posted by 1stvermont

This is from a christian perspective. so that standard of what is accepted is the bible.

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I too love genocide, slavery, stoning for adultery, blasphemy, working on the sabbath, etc

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no, its an abomination for kings to do evil.

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Owning other people as property is evil. A man can do every single thing that the bible prescribes from him, and yet he may still be an evil person. The point is that, the bible is not some reference point for what is absolutely good or absolutely evil. It is an abomination to eat shrimp and work on saturdays but it's totally fine to own people as slaves indefinitely. There is not one good reason to use this book as an objective source of right and wrong.

The link you provided on biblical slavery is so stupid. The slavery allowed in the Bible was bad for Israelites, and absolutely horrible for non-Israelites.

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Exodus 21:20-21If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

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So, for example, there would be no problem if you literally beat your slave to death, as long as he survives... 24-48 hours? Why so inexact? Makes no fucking sense. And I thought Yahweh was supposed to be infinitely intelligent. Seems like it was written by a complete idiot. Kelly Thomas survived for 5 days after he was beaten (although with modern medicine and life support.) The Bible equates the life of a living human with a table or a chair.

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Exodus 21:4d
If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.

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This loophole verse in the Bible (hey its me ur master i gave u a wife so now ur my slave forever unless u want to leave her) also unfortunately endorses hereditary slavery. So all kids are slaves too. Exactly like they did in the south. Fucking disgusting.

And the above two are about Israelite slaves

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Leviticus 25:44-46 ⁴⁴As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. ⁴⁵Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. ⁴⁶You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.

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Wow, and I thought US foreign policy was bad. Apparently you're supposed to go around murdering and enslaving the peoples around you. This book inspires me.


And the "that was the old testament, it was a different time," is an absolutely awful argument for christians to use because
1. The new testament fully endorses all scripture of the old multiple times (even when they contradict I guess? sweet inerrant religion you got there)
2. It's a moral relativist argument, and you people generally like to argue that the Bible is the absolute source of morality (thank god that personal gods dont exist and all religious books are senseless drivel)

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Originally Posted by Influenza

I too love genocide, slavery, stoning for adultery, blasphemy, working on the sabbath, etc

Owning other people as property is evil. A man can do every single thing that the bible prescribes from him, and yet he may still be an evil person. The point is that, the bible is not some reference point for what is absolutely good or absolutely evil. It is an abomination to eat shrimp and work on saturdays but it's totally fine to own people as slaves indefinitely. There is not one good reason to use this book as an objective source of right and wrong.

The link you provided on biblical slavery is so stupid. The slavery allowed in the Bible was bad for Israelites, and absolutely horrible for non-Israelites.


So, for example, there would be no problem if you literally beat your slave to death, as long as he survives... 24-48 hours? Why so inexact? Makes no $#@!ing sense. And I thought Yahweh was supposed to be infinitely intelligent. Seems like it was written by a complete idiot. Kelly Thomas survived for 5 days after he was beaten (although with modern medicine and life support.) The Bible equates the life of a living human with a table or a chair.



This loophole verse in the Bible (hey its me ur master i gave u a wife so now ur my slave forever unless u want to leave her) also unfortunately endorses hereditary slavery. So all kids are slaves too. Exactly like they did in the south. $#@!ing disgusting.

And the above two are about Israelite slaves



Wow, and I thought US foreign policy was bad. Apparently you're supposed to go around murdering and enslaving the peoples around you. This book inspires me.


And the "that was the old testament, it was a different time," is an absolutely awful argument for christians to use because
1. The new testament fully endorses all scripture of the old multiple times (even when they contradict I guess? sweet inerrant religion you got there)
2. It's a moral relativist argument, and you people generally like to argue that the Bible is the absolute source of morality (thank god that personal gods dont exist and all religious books are senseless drivel)



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not sure what this has to do with the topic, but here is some threads if your interested.

Did God Command Genocide During the Conquest of Canaan?
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...uest-of-Canaan
Slavery in the Bible? Responding to Common Objections to the Bible

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...s-to-the-Bible
Look Away Politically Incorrect Information About Slavery

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-About-Slavery

Responding to Common Objections to the Bible-OT Death Penalty Laws and Similar Objections

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...lar-Objections




you said "A man can do every single thing that the bible prescribes from him, and yet he may still be an evil person. "

by what standard? your own. who says you are correct? you are just evolved random material and chemicals so how can you claim something is evil? if it is all random matter than there is no right or wrong or standard to tell what is right or wrong other than are subjective opinions that are the result of random matter [our brains]. I suggest my thread on slavery does a bit more than you claim to so easily dismiss it. however maybe your objections belong on that thread and we can discus them.


I must say your conclusions on the verse and the context show little knowledge of this issue. I would much rather this be on my thread on slavery so everything can be put in context and discussed when its the topic of the thread. i hope you do take the time to read my thread and i welcome you to ask your question here

Slavery in the Bible? Responding to Common Objections to the Bible

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?515283-Slavery-in-the-Bible-Responding-to-Common-Objections-to-the-Bible


I will also add i never said the ot no longer applies in any way, my op demands it does in part. this shows you have never read my op or my thread on slavery. i suggest you calm the emotions, drink a beer, than read my op and see if you wish to comment on it that is related to the topic. or, go and post what you have on my thread about slavery and i would love to discus it.

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Originally Posted by Influenza

There is not one good reason to use this book as an objective source of right and wrong.

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Not so fast. There is much in the bible I find ridiculous such that I would not subscribe to it even if God Hisownself said that I must. The basic Christian ethic, however, is pretty good from both the aspects of pure principle and that of practicality, at least as I choose to interpret them. I'm no expert on the bible. I've read it, and it bored me to the brink of gouging out my own eyes with my thumbs. I can say the same for the Vedas, Qur'an, Zend Avesta, and so on down a considerable list. The literary style of such texts are almost universally tedious, cover to cover and the content dreary beyond my will to tolerate. What men need is a text that is properly structured for logic, carefully considered for content, and written in a concise yet sufficient manner so as to impart to readers that which is essential, sans all the extraneous rhetoric and allegorical frivolity.

We are at a point in our history where technology has taken such a position as to be usable as a properly uniting influence, with emphasis on "properly". Were the people of this rock united at the right level of conceptual abstraction, the world would stand to become a far better place. Don't hold your breath in wait.

The bible is largely chud - wholly useless and utterly uninteresting to me. But credit must always be given where due. There are gems in the torrents of wasteful storytelling that are worth mining, understanding, and living, IMO. I will never go through it again as once or twice was plenty for me. But it would be a good thing if a man of proper intellect, position, skill, and integrity were to distill the right biblical principles into a correctly contrived tome. Perhaps it has been done, but I am not aware of it.

So I would admonish one and all to be careful with condemnation. Too much, too broadly cast, stands one a good chance of losing something of good value.

The choice, of course, is always yours.

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Seems like it was written by a complete idiot.

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In many places, I cannot disagree. "Written by God"... "Inspired by God..." all pretty meaningless assertions without a very precise and complete definition of "God". But this is what people do, almost universally. Humans.

Good luck.