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  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-21-2016, 07:45 PM
    God bless America. (inb4 TheTexan)
    14 replies | 324 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-19-2016, 06:22 AM
    I've had those dreams before. I consider them nightmares.
    37 replies | 467 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-19-2016, 04:26 AM
    So if they did feed the gators, then they would be liable? Your comment doesn't draw a clear line. You say there is no concept of "letting" wild animals do things, which is baloney because we've been letting and not letting wild things do as they please since the dawn of man. And by harbor, I mean make some kind of accomodations on your property for it and let, yes LET it use those accomodations without interference. I used to do that with my pets and I still considered them pets. Why does it matter whether the animals are legally your property or not if you know they're there? Sounds to me like you're exploiting a legal definition loophole to justify your theory. The concept of "letting" is very applicable here because it's not just a blanket statement. We're talking about your property, to which you can choose to give access to animals or not.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-19-2016, 04:20 AM
    I still hold that the beach is an attractive hazard.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-17-2016, 03:23 PM
    So, in other words, you could harbor, feed and let wild animals use your property all the time and it's ok, but the second you CALL that animal your property, then suddenly it's your liability. Those gators had been on the Disney property for decades and the only reason you don't think they were liable is because they weren't called pet gators. What, exactly, is the difference between a pet and a wild animal? And also, I'm sure you're aware that these guests we're talking about are not trespassers.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-17-2016, 12:35 AM
    Another piece of evidence that it was plain negligence is the clear motive Disney had for not telling people about the gators. And yet you Disney apologists won't even consider THAT evidence. It doesn't matter what their motives were, after all, does it? Except it kinda does because the fact that they have such a motive further strengthens the fact that they knew it would have caused people to change their behavior if they had let them know about it. There are signs all over the place for things far more trivial than that in the US, but they couldn't put up a sign about the alligators? Clearly they were hoping not to attract any attention to the fact that there was any danger there so that people wouldn't feel uneasy about going to their awesome party. Did you consider that, presence? Or are you just in blind denial that there is any scenario in which it is reasonable for you to let your visitors know about something that could very possibly kill them? Is there any such scenario in your mind?
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-17-2016, 12:26 AM
    I don't know, man. Give me some specific examples so I can tear them apart. Hurricanes, tsunamis: everybody knows about those. They're on the weather channel. That's not the landlord's job. Weather is something far less predictable than some crocodiles in a pond where an attraction was built specifically for humans to hang out at. Luckily, we have weather services who warn us about this stuff and evacuation services if it's a really big deal. Besides that, everybody already knows to consider the weather when going to a place. That is a part of life wherever you are in the world. If you don't want to live in a place where there are hurricanes and tsunamis, then it's pretty easy to avoid that. The last alligator attack was in the 1980s. The last time the sea levels rose and wiped out Florida was.... when? Unlike alligators, people can't control their proximity to amoebas because they're all over the place, too, and there's no way to know if they're there or not. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be cautious about things we can warn about and can predict, like ferocious beasts all located in a very specific area on which you are building an attraction so people can hang out there. Don't warn about the things you can't, do warn about the things you can.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-17-2016, 12:17 AM
    Yeah, like I said, go crazy with dreaming up your fictitious scenarios. Amoebas in the water is still a very different scenario because there's no way to control or monitor how amoebas behave or where they will be, much less lightning. If there was a certain area of the pond where it was known that certain killer amoebas were concentrated in unusually high numbers, I'd say it would be nice to be notified about that, too, especially if the attraction were built in that specific area. What is known is that the alligators are always in the pond and they are always a threat that can, at the very least, be recognized and notified about. But hey, keep dreaming up scenarios and you might find one ambiguous enough to get me to say I don't know, but this one is really straightforward. Tell your damn guests that the party you're holding is right on gator feeding grounds. That way people can choose not to come, to come and not bring their children, to keep a safe distance from the water, whatever it is. If you're just swimming in a pond with no alligators, then there's really no way to prepare against amoebas, but amoebas exist everywhere in the world, as does lightning, so it's reasonable to expect people to already be aware of this stuff. I don't know what a metal teller stamp is and I don't care. Lightning is everywhere in the world and it's magnitudes less predictable than a bunch of alligators in a pond, so that doesn't apply here.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-17-2016, 12:04 AM
    You can make anything sound ridiculous if you just imagine up ridiculous scenarios that, by the way, have nothing to do with what I'm proposing, which is a simple, common, everyday sign or some kind of warning through other media. You don't have to construct a billboard or anything like that, ok? As for the black bears, you can disclose it to your visitors for however long you like to ensure their safety. They roam around a lot, so it's not likely that they would always be found on your property in a very specific location like, say, a pond. And it's not like you constructed some kind of attraction outside where you knew there were black bears around. If you did that, then heck yes, you should disclose that to your visitors. You like to make it complicated, but it's really simple. You can dream up whatever scenario you want and maybe it will be ambiguous enough that I will eventually say 'Gee, I don't know', but I will always point out how it was a reasonable expectation in THIS scenario.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 10:06 PM
    Because everyone knows signs cost millions of dollars. Besides, I've already proven that it's common practice to warn visitors even if you're not a millionaire. And this doesn't mean every time someone is hurt on your property you should be held responsible. It's all about reasonable expectation. In this case, it was beyond reasonable to expect them to warn people about the dangers there. If you go to a similar event on someone's property and they tell you after the fact that there were deadly creatures in the water on that beach, would you ever go back to their property? I sure as hell wouldn't, especially if my two year old was wading in that very water. It's very simple. Disney was negligent and didn't do what any other normal person would do because they didn't want to ruin the party. The fact that the party was ruined by their negligence just makes them look like bumbling, incompetent fools.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 10:02 PM
    Your reasoning is incorrigibly naive. You keep referring to people being idiots as if it's the same thing as building a damn beach on your pond in which alligators are harbored. I don't care if it's an infestation, five alligators in a pond is more than enough to have some sort of warning about. Most people know there are alligators in Florida, but they don't exactly slither through the grass, so it is relatively easy to know where they will be (in the pond) and warn people who might venture near said location. Just as I would warn someone not to go in a grassy patch if I knew there were snakes there. It's just common fucking sense, something you appear to think is for sissies. It's amazing to think that someone from WV doesn't understand the concept of warning someone if there is a deadly creature on your property. And another ridiculous argument you make is that you think people will say they had no idea there were alligators in Florida. Almost everyone knows there are alligators in Florida, but they aren't aware of the distribution of the gator population or if they might expect to find them in a pond at a Disney resort. Most people would assume not because, once again, common fucking sense, but I wouldn't expect you to know anything about that.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 08:07 PM
    Remind me never to come to your property if we ever become friends. Which probably isn't going to happen since I know you are incapable of acting like a friend. We're both from WV, and I don't know about your experiences, but it has always been very common for people to warn visitors on their property about possible wildlife that might be lurking around, especially if it's something unusual, like bears or panthers. (No, it's true, there were two panthers known to dwell in the woods around our house when we were young.) Some things may be very rare, but it usually pops into a friend's mind to warn them about the things they should be most concerned about that are common in that area but might not be common in other areas, especially if they might be lethal. It doesn't require the threat of a lawsuit for a friend to warn people, so is it too much to ask for Disney to act like any friend would and give its visitors a simple warning?
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 07:57 PM
    They've definitely knocked their safety rating down a notch with this trick. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this was the first time they did this particular kind of event, and that being the case, they've proven themselves to be less competent at managing such events than we previously thought, thereby tarnishing their overall competency and safety reputation.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 07:45 PM
    That is a ludicrous assertion. What are you even talking about? If they know enough about alligators to realize there's a danger, which almost everyone does, then that's all the more reason to think the signs WOULD help, not the other way around. Most people know alligators are dangerous but they just don't know where alligators are found. So if you tell them that they are in the water at the beach, that doesn't lead you to the conclusion that they would ignore the signs. In fact, that leads you to the exact opposite conclusion, that if you tell them that there are alligators here, they will realize alligators are dangerous and be more cautious. Heck, that's probably why Disney didn't tell anyone. They didn't want to scare people and ruin the party. Yeah, that seems reasonable, but it's a bit irrelevant to the liability issue. This all goes back to the doctrine of reasonable expectation. You can't just wave your hand and say "The world is a dangerous place! Get used to it, ya crybabies!" If you were a friend and you had someone over from out of state to your property with a pond, would you not want them to know about the gators? Would you hold a party on the beach of said pond and not make sure everyone knew there were gators? Would you assume that no swimming signs meant everyone should know it's because of gators and that you don't have to be swimming for a gator to attack you? Jesus, the thick-headedness of some people.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 07:05 PM
    Heck, it would've been better if they DID hang out on land. At least people would've seen them, then. The fact that they don't tend to hang out on land just makes it a more compelling reason to warn guests from far away about the dangers of going near the water. Even if the kid wasn't in the water, right on the edge, the gators could've easily come up and snatched him and been gone before anybody knew it. The "libertarian" solution is to be a friend and tell people about the dangers on your property. I've explained this before. You don't build a beach on a pond and then host a party without ever thinking to tell people that there are gators in there. Are the "No swimming" signs sufficient? Hell no, nooooo. NO WAY. Not even close. Don't even think for a second that that logic is going to absolve you of responsibility when your friend gets eaten by an alligator. If I were on that panel and you were the one arguing that you shouldn't have been required to tell your friends about the gators in the pond you were having a party on, I would have no mercy on your ass.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 06:58 PM
    Yeah, that does seem like a bit of bureaucratic nonsense, but that's the least of my worries. Even for someone who is very libertacious (new word) and super-suspicious of lawsuits that require signs or such, think about having a friend over. Wouldn't you take the time to tell your friend about the danger involved if they were from far away and didn't know? Heck, if I were having someone over, I would suggest not even going near the pond, much less build a beach on it. That seems like a reasonable thing to expect from a friend. If you live in a place where there are alligators, these are things you have to be thinking about, and I wouldn't think it was too much to ask to warn your friends from out-of-state and even help check a swimming area for gators before allowing your friends to use it. If you know there are gators in a pond, I would alert the friends and warn them to stay well away from it. I think anyone you could call a friend would do that.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 06:47 PM
    If I was having a friend over from out-of-state that didn't understand the dangers, then I would certainly deign to explain it to them and help check for alligators before allowing them to use my swimming pool.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 06:45 PM
    If a friend goes over to a friend's house and the property has a pond on it and there are alligators in said pond, I would definitely expect the property owner to let his friends know that there alligators in that pond first thing they come on the property. If the friends go down to their host's pond without his supervision and never once mentions the freaking alligators, are we supposed to say "Oh, what a pity! You should watch out for wild animals!" NO FREAKING WAY! The property owner not mentioning the dangers to his friends is a clear negligence of his duties as a friend and a property owner. I would absolutely say any kind of friend would certainly not fail to mention this crucial fact before letting others onto his property. And that brings up another point: they weren't necessarily in public. Although there were other people on the property, there was a reasonable expectation of safety from the dangers of truly public life. I don't think this situation calls for extra-tight precautions on the part of the parents. The child was under their direct supervision, but they were totally unaware as to which direction they could expect an attack from. I certainly wouldn't blame any parents for letting their child stray a few feet from them in this situation.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 06:29 PM
    THEY FUCKING KNEW! They should've said something! They knew there were alligators on the property. A pond or lagoon could even be considered a kind of cage but you heartless bastards seem to think shit just happens if somebody gets grabbed and I guess it's either the parents' fault for being ignorant or nobody's fault and we should just act like it's inevitable for this to happen. I think that's ridiculous. Even if the parents were a little ignorant for not being from Florida, the fact that the property owner knew about the possibility of this tragedy happening puts the liability on their shoulders. Did they take all the necessary means and precautions that could reasonably be expected of them to prevent this? I think not!
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 06:11 PM
    What part of getting dragged into the water by an alligator has anything to do with "acting like a 2 year old"?? By constant supervision, do you literally mean never letting go of the child's hand, ever? And are you saying that the parents are liable for not assuming that there were alligators in the water that could snatch their child? What other dangers are they supposed to be watching out for that make them bad parents for letting their 2 year old stray 5 feet away? Why do you insist on blaming the parents? I don't think most people consider letting a 2 year old go 5 feet or however many feet it was a bad or irresponsible parenting practice. It certainly wasn't bad in comparison to hosting a party on an alligator-infested pond with no warnings or precautions about things that could come up out of the water and literally kill someone. The magnitude of this situation implores you to have some sympathy for the aggrieved parents and stop playing the "I'm the best parent in the world and this never would have happened had I been in that situation" game. I think it's disgusting.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 10:16 AM
    So sad to see the country of my ancestors eating itself alive, sacrificing itself in the name of "progress."
    22 replies | 351 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 10:08 AM
    So you're blaming the parents, then? Because "no swimming" obviously means OMG ALLIGATORS! And the child wasn't fucking swimming. Oh, and get this: Alligators can actually WALK on dry land, no swimming required! I know, crazy!
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 10:06 AM
    Everybody knows there are sharks in the ocean. It's not quite as obvious to somebody from out-of-state that you might find alligators in a freshwater pond, especially at a Disney event. Are you one of those people who always blames the stupid parents for the death of their child because they weren't smart enough to know the wildlife topography of the place they were visiting? Just natural selection, right? Stupid parents, stupid kid. I don't care what anyone says, a sign would've been nice. Not everybody in the nation is aware of how commonly and where alligators are found in Florida. It was a party so it's entirely possible that some people didn't think the hosts would deliberately expose people to such a risk. Does it really not sound even the least bit irresponsible to host an event on the edge of an alligator-infested pond to anyone? Did they really not consider the idea that it would be possible for this to happen? An alligator just comes up and grabs someone and, oh well, I guess shit just happens.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 09:54 AM
    Alligators, right. I can never tell them apart. I guess that makes me racist.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 07:08 AM
    I never said I was surprised. It's unsettlingly common these days, but I'm just surprised more people tend to blame the parents whose child got snatched out of the blue than Disney who held a party on croc-infested waters and didn't try to warn anyone. You all just assume signs wouldn't have done any good and I can't figure out for the life of me how you can be so callous. Put up a tape, attach a recording to a loudspeaker in a perimeter around the lake. Do whatever you have to, but a sign that says no swimming seems awfully light in terms of security. You'd think a company like Disney would be a little better prepared to prevent tragedies like this, especially considering their reputation.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 07:04 AM
    As it should have.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 05:59 AM
    Forgive my brashness, but what in the hell? That sounds utterly idiotic. I don't care how jaded you are from being in the tourism industry, I'm sure signs save lives at least some of the time for those with a lick of sense. You can't always avoid it, but damn it, you can try. A sign saying "Danger! Alligator!" Would have been a real help here, as I'm sure no parent would let a two year old near the water if they knew there were alligators in there. Even if not, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here because Disney set up a freaking beach right on an alligator infested pond. Is Disney serious with this shit? And as for missing "face time" with their kids when they're taking pictures, that, too, sounds pretty stupid. I don't know how long it takes you to snap some pictures, but it really shouldn't take that long and it's been bein' done for a long freaking time now. Snapping pictures has been a favorite pastime the world over since cameras were invented, and I don't see the effect you're apparently seeing that it's apparently having on childrens' psyches. Sounds like a pretty lame addendum to a story about a kid getting eaten by an alligator at a Disney club.
    241 replies | 3305 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-16-2016, 03:46 AM
    So, if you were a road owner, would you hire some type of police force to make sure people are driving safely?
    58 replies | 1240 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-15-2016, 06:10 AM
    I find it very hard to believe that traffic in the US is similar to that of China. Considering I've seen both, I'm going to go ahead and take the upper hand on this one. I don't think that's the case. And yes, of course you see more police activity there. A lot, as you said. But hey, if you don't mind it, I guess I can't really convince you otherwise. You seem to be sold on the idea that cops are A-ok and enforcing unconstitutional, victimless crimes is also A-ok. I do wonder if you've been visiting the AF cop threads. The shit that is going on now over minor traffic infractions... it's unacceptable. A free society would certainly look nothing like this. You're not answering my question. I don't want to have to deal with police constantly stopping me and taking my money for victimless crimes, but what other choice do I have if that's the only highway traversing the 50 miles between my town and the next big town? How can I take my business elsewhere, as I should be able to do in a free society? That's a pretty big complaint, I'd say. Either you're not listening or you just don't get it. And why do you think society doesn't want what I want? Do you speak for society? I've met a lot of people who agree with me, especially on this forum, and I'll be damned if I let a private company keep the same stupid rules and traffic infractions that we have now just to generate income. But again, what choice do I have?
    58 replies | 1240 view(s)
  • PaulConventionWV's Avatar
    06-15-2016, 05:13 AM
    This is where I take exception. The idea that we would have roads similar to the way they are today is extremely closed minded. If you just mean the way people drive around, then okay, I guess, but even with all the tickets, ordinances, side-of-the-road dancing for an officer, pleading to an officer, getting beaten by an officer, then hell no, you can count me out. And once more, you really need a bit of perspective to make that call, something I doubt you have. The roads look very similar here in China, but with very little enforcement of traffic laws, the driving is much different. Unauthorized vehicles, too many people on one vehicle, people driving the wrong way, people crossing the street in between cars when the walking light is red, people using the shoulder as an extra passing lane, people cutting people off, honking liberally and no one bats an eye... it's just chaos, but you know what, it seems to work pretty well. It gets people from point A to point B because they're not always hung up on stupid shit like speed limits and whatnot. The unexpected is totally expected here, and that's why I find it not only chaotic, but safe in a way. Anyway, enough of me rambling on about my perspective and your lack thereof. Ummm... k. You're a genius, I guess? But that's a big freaking difference. Where I'm from we sometimes have 50 mile stretches of highway between major cities and you're telling me if the owners of a road like that started turning into authoritarian assholes who monitored your ever move, people could just take side roads the whole damn way? Not a chance! Or would you be okay with them being authoritarian assholes? It sounds like you like the current policing situation on American roads with all the fines and tickets for stupid little infractions that hurt no one. Do you have anything bad to say about the way America's roads are policed? Because what's going on now ain't good.
    58 replies | 1240 view(s)
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