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The State is Chaos

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[QUOTE=PierzStyx;6691719][QUOTE=thoughtomator;6691341]Basically what you are saying is that you are completely unable to grapple with the real world trade-offs involved in securing liberty, so you have to create extreme strawman scenarios to justify obstinance.

What you will need to seek is not the permission of a centralized government per se, but the permission of your countrymen who seek to strike a rational balance between the conflicting imperatives of maximizing personal liberty and maintaining the environment of law and order that is an absolute non-negotiable requirement for the Western concept of liberty to exist.

If you want anarchist "liberty", go ahead and cross the border now before the walll goes up. Northern Mexico should be a dream locale for the person who wants to be completely unfettered by law.[/QUOTE]

Talk about a silly response.

You can immediately know that anyone talking about trading liberty for security is absolutely just another thief looking to rob you for you and tell you it is for your own good.

There is no trade off for security when you choose liberty. Maximum liberty also allows for you to have maximum security and complete order. Thinking that surrendering your body, property, and mind to constant brainwashing, theft, and violation somehow makes you safe isn't just stupid, it is delusional. Reducing yourself to servility to the government makes you weak, not strong, exposes you to its constant harassment, danger, and violence; it does not make you safe. It creates disorder on a mass scale as it submits everything to the whims of those in power.

Nor do I need to ask permission from you or the warlords you support to engage in peaceful trade with any other person, nor do they need to ask it from you. And if you insist on forcing me to do so or you will beat, cage, or kill me or another then you know nothing of the law. The only Law is Natural Law, the natural right of human beings to engage in peaceful relationships and interact as long as they do not violate the rights of others. This is the essence of what Life, Liberty, Property, and Pursuit of Happiness mean. What you propose is none of these things and it is not Law. It is Chaos, the chaos of those in power to force their will on the masses through overwhelming violence. And their edicts change with their whims, leading to social, political, and economic chaos.

There is nothing anarchist in this understanding. That you would suggest it only demonstrates you know little about that which you profess to care about- liberty and order. This is basic classical liberal thinking. It is Locke, Jefferson, and Bastiat boiled down to their most concentrated message. That you do not recognize it speaks more to the mental conditioning you were subjected to as a child that has taught you obedience, subservience, and the surrender of your liberty for the idol of Security. Do yourself a favor and start educating yourself in the power of liberty. Bastiat's "The Law" -available at the link as a free pdf- is an easy place to start.


As for a straw man, I've done nothing of the sort. I merely refuse to submit to your authoritarian delusion.

How do you think you are going to attack 11 million people and deprive them of their lives, liberty, and property without your roving bands of jackboots? How are you going to know who is and isn't an immigrant without national registration, tracing, and monitoring? How are you going to violate the property, association, and exchange rights of all 325 million Americans without using militaristic police violence to enforce your rule? How are you going to militarize the border and pay for your $25 billion+ in upfront costs and billions more in endless costs without the violence and theft of taxation? How you are going to prevent the free exchange of goods and services across borders without extortion, theft, and police state monitoring of said exchanges and the use of violence against those who don't follow your edicts? All of these things, and everything else required to bring about your vision, require a giant, expansive militaristic police state to force your will upon the masses.

You can always pinpoint the tyrants easily. They're the ones who want to explain how reducing you to slavery is "sensible" and "moderate." And it is funny how you always want to call others Communist. Yet you're the one promoting National Socialism as the cure to the imaginary problems of the world, when the only real problem is that you're terrified that someone might turn the tools of tyranny you've used so effectively against the masses against you.[/QUOTE]