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PierzStyx

Should Libertarians support Capital Punishment?

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Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
So thousands of years of interpretation of scripture and Joseph Smith and Bruce R. McConkie agree with me, but YOU know what Mormon doctrine "REALLY" is and I don't.

OK

As I said you are hopeless, this conversation is over Comrade Heretic
First of all, these aren't argument. You're just trying to win by committing logical fallacies at this point, specifically the Appeal to Authority Fallacy. It doesn't matter what someone with "rank" thinks. The question is if they are right. So far you have been unable to prove you are correct in any way so now you are turning to fallacies to try and support your argument. But without proof your argument doesn't matter.

Second, "heretic"

You keep using that word, but I do not think it means what you think it means.


For example, you seem to imply that "thousands of years of interpretations" means anything. Aren't you the one who in this very thread labelled Paul a heretic, meaning you are accusing thousands of years of Christians of being in error because they believed Paul.

You are a hypocrite.

But even more than that, you are ignorant. Christian opposition to killing is a sold as Christianity itself.

I've already shown that Jesus Christ opposed it. But it is also clearly many of the Christian fathers opposed it.

Anthenagoras of Athens, a highly influential 2nd century Christian apologist who is considered a saint by the Orthodox Church, in his response to the claim that Christians are cannibals has this to say about the death penalty:

What man of sound mind, therefore, will affirm, while such is our character, that we are murderers? For we cannot eat human flesh till we have killed some one. The former charge, therefore, being false, if any one should ask them in regard to the second, whether they have seen what they assert, not one of them would be so barefaced as to say that he had. And yet we have slaves, some more and some fewer, by whom we could not help being seen; but even of these, not one has been found to invent even such things against us. For when they know that we cannot endure even to see a man put to death, though justly; who of them can accuse us of murder or cannibalism? Who does not reckon among the things of greatest interest the contests of gladiators and wild beasts, especially those which are given by you? But we, deeming that to see a man put to death is much the same as killing him, have abjured such spectacles. How, then, when we do not even look on, lest we should contract guilt and pollution, can we put people to death? And when we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God s for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very foetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and when it has passed into life, to kill it; and not to expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child-murder, and on the other hand, when it has been reared to destroy it. But we are in all things always alike and the same, submitting ourselves to reason, and not ruling over it.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...oras-plea.html
In counter the claim that Christians are cannibals he points out that Christians cannot even bear to kill a person who they think may "deserve" to die, how for a Christian even seeing a guilty person being killed is a sin because seeing and the appearance of assenting to such an act pollutes the person, who refuse to kill other peopel form the time they are fetuses onward, how then are they supposed to kill innocent people to eat them?


Tertullian, writing in the 2nd and 3rd centuries clearly taught that all forms of killing was forbidden:

Has the Creator, withal, provided these things for man’s destruction? Nay, He puts His interdict on every sort of man-killing by that one summary precept, “Thou shalt not kill.”

http://st-takla.org/books/en/ecf/003/0030086.html
Hippolytus taught in the Apostolic Tradition:

A military man in authority must not execute men. If he is ordered, he must not carry it out. Nor must he take military oath. If he refuses, he shall be rejected.

http://www.bombaxo.com/hippolytus.html
Again, execution is forbidden and military men who executed people, which meant executing them in accordance to state laws and demands, did so were rejected from communion. This si additionally important when you understand that anciently all policing was done by the military. Which means this effectively applies to modern day police as well who are doing today the jobs that military men alone did anciently.

And of course this is in addition to how many of the early Christian fathers completely rejected violence completely, examples of which are found here: http://themelios.thegospelcoalition....tian-obedience

While I could keep going, this should provide enough evidence to demonstrate that your claim that Christians have for thousands of years universally supported the death penalty is absolutely false and is an uneducated and ignorant claim.

As for Mormon doctrine, I have demonstrated how the sources of doctrine for the LDS Church, mainly in this case the scriptures, hold teachings that mandate abandoning executing people and give no support for promoting executions. I invite you to use the sources of Mormon doctrine to demonstrate that it is a doctrine of the LDS Church that one must accept the death penalty. Quoting random church leaders about what they did or did not believe isn't a source of doctrine. I have given you the official Church press release and statement about where doctrine can be found. Find some evidence. Because so far I am the only one who has offered any actual evidence. You have mostly been misquoting scripture, twisting its meaning, falsely interpreting it, and, upon repeatedly failing to buttress your claim, resorted to name calling and fallacious arguments. It seems like you believe that you alone get to decide what is or isn't Christian and what is or isn't Mormon doctrine though you apparently know little of either, which is funny because no Christian would reject Paul nor would any Mormon make so many errors in failing to understand Mormon scripture and beliefs about church leadership.

Comrade
Are you a Communist? Because that would make sense for why you are so terrible at this. Your economic and political beliefs are already founded on so much irrationality that it would make sense that your religious arguments would make the same errors. It would also explain why you worship the State to such a degree that you commit idolatry and give to it powers reserved for God alone, that being the ability to begin and end human life. Like many Communists the State is your God.
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