• Secessionists formally launch quest for California's independence

    I fully support this, and am going to donate to the cause.


    Secessionists formally launch quest for California's independence

    http://www.latimes.com/politics/esse...htmlstory.html

    Supporters of a plan for California to secede from the union took their first formal step Monday morning, submitting a proposed ballot measure to the state attorney general’s office in the hopes of a statewide vote as soon as 2018.

    Marcus Ruiz Evans, the vice president and co-founder of Yes California, said his group had been planning to wait for a later election, but the presidential election of Donald Trump sped up the timeline.

    “We’re doing it now because of all of the overwhelming attention,” Evans said.

    The Yes California group has been around for more than two years, Evans said. It is based around California taxpayers paying more money to the federal government than the state receives in spending, that Californians are culturally different from the rest of the country, and that national media and organizations routinely criticize Californians for being out of step with the rest of the U.S.

    The attorney general’s office will give the ballot measure a title and summary, and Evans said he hopes to begin collecting signatures to get it on the ballot in the spring. Qualifying ballot measures typically requires significant resources to pay signature gatherers, and Yes California doesn’t have major financial backing. But Evans said 13,000 people have volunteered to collect signatures.

    “This is real,” Evans said. “We treat it seriously.”

    Various groups have made noise about California forming its own country in the wake of Trump’s election this month, most prominently Silicon Valley financier Shervin Pishevar. But similar proposals have dotted the state’s political landscape for years. Yes California has tried and failed previously, and Silicon Valley venture capitalist Tim Draper was not able to get a proposal to split California into six states onto the 2016 ballot.


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    Comments 288 Comments
    1. AZJoe's Avatar
      AZJoe -
    1. Anti Federalist's Avatar
      Anti Federalist -
      Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
      Are you feeling it Mr Crabs?
    1. tod evans's Avatar
      tod evans -
      From Drudge;

      Trump threatens to defund ‘out of control’ California

      http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/poli...130934804.html


      President Donald Trump is threatening to withhold federal funds from “out of control” California if the state declares itself a sanctuary state.

      “If we have to, we’ll defund,” Trump said in an interview with Fox News host Bill O’Reilly before the Super Bowl. “We give tremendous amounts of money to California, California in many ways is out of control, as you know.”

      Trump was responding to a question from O’Reilly about efforts by Democratic state legislators to make California a de-facto “sanctuary state” that would restrict state and local law enforcement, including school police and security departments, from using their resources to aid federal authorities in immigration enforcement.

      “I think it’s ridiculous. Sanctuary cities, as you know, I’m very much opposed to sanctuary cities. They breed crime, there’s a lot of problems,” Trump said.

      Sacramento, Los Angeles and San Francisco are sanctuary cities and have said they will will challenge in court any attempt by Trump to withhold federal funds from them. Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti said he doubted the 10th amendment to the Constitution, which reserves power to the states, would allow Trump to defund.

      Sacramento Mayor Darrell Steinberg has said he would "join, if not lead, any effort to fight (the sanctuary city threat) with litigation."

      Trump told O’Reilly that he didn’t want to defund a state or a city and would like to give them “the money they need to properly operate.”

      But the president added that “if they’re going to have sanctuary cities, we may have to do that. Certainly that would be a weapon.”

      Californa Gov. Jerry Brown pledged in his State of the State address last month to defend everybody who has come to the state "for a better life and has contributed to the well-being of our state."

      “I recognize that under the Constitution, federal law is supreme and that Washington determines immigration policy. But as a state we can and have had a role to play. California has enacted several protective measures for the undocumented: the Trust Act, lawful driver's licenses, basic employment rights and non-discriminatory access to higher education,” Brown said in his State of the State. “We may be called upon to defend those laws and defend them we will.”
    1. Anti Federalist's Avatar
      Anti Federalist -
      I've been thinking of swiping some tools I need from the local hardware store.

      When caught, I'll claim I'm merely an "undocumented shopper".
    1. tod evans's Avatar
      tod evans -
      Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
      I've been thinking of swiping some tools I need from the local hardware store.

      When caught, I'll claim I'm merely an "undocumented shopper".
      White men got nuthin' coming.
    1. euphemia's Avatar
      euphemia -
      If the movement succeeds, it may well be that Democrats will never win another national election. California was the only reason Hillary supposedly won the popular vote. They will lose key Dems in the House and Senate. There is not another state with sufficient population to guarantee a Democratic majority for a long time to come.
    1. oyarde's Avatar
      oyarde -
      CalExit Now .
    1. Madison320's Avatar
      Madison320 -
      The only reason California is able to survive with higher tax rates and generally more socialism than other states is that it has so many natural resources. If they were to secede and go all in on socialism, they'd eventually collapse. That being said no one in this forum should be against secession.
    1. Ender's Avatar
      Ender -
      Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
      The only reason California is able to survive with higher tax rates and generally more socialism than other states is that it has so many natural resources. If they were to secede and go all in on socialism, they'd eventually collapse. That being said no one in this forum should be against secession.
      True- but not all Calis are lefties.

      I think California would do quite well as an independent country- that said, do I think the US will allow it?

      No.
    1. seapilot's Avatar
      seapilot -
      Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
      If the movement succeeds, it may well be that Democrats will never win another national election. California was the only reason Hillary supposedly won the popular vote. They will lose key Dems in the House and Senate. There is not another state with sufficient population to guarantee a Democratic majority for a long time to come.
      If it really happened (odds are better of finding Sasquatch) other more leftist areas and cities would peel away seeking independence or joining a California nation. Such as Washington/Oregon, City states such as NYC, Chicago after realizing that they would never win another election or better yet they stay and push for more states rights.
    1. Madison320's Avatar
      Madison320 -
      Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
      True- but not all Calis are lefties.

      I think California would do quite well as an independent country- that said, do I think the US will allow it?

      No.
      You could be right although my guess is they'd first try hard core socialism, find out it doesn't work, then switch to capitalism (freedom).

      Totally agree that the US will not allow it. Not a chance.
    1. Anti Federalist's Avatar
      Anti Federalist -
      Quote Originally Posted by seapilot View Post
      If it really happened (odds are better of finding Sasquatch) other more leftist areas and cities would peel away seeking independence or joining a California nation. Such as Washington/Oregon, City states such as NYC, Chicago after realizing that they would never win another election or better yet they stay and push for more states rights.
      And this is a bad thing?
    1. klamath's Avatar
      klamath -
      I hope they legalize it because the Republic of Jefferson would immediately break away.
    1. Superfluous Man's Avatar
      Superfluous Man -
      I'm glad to see it too.

      But it's interesting in its irony. California would essentially be relinquishing the influence it has over the rest of the states as a way of protesting not having enough influence over them.
    1. Ender's Avatar
      Ender -
      Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
      I hope they legalize it because the Republic of Jefferson would immediately break away.
      That's been trying to happen for years.
    1. klamath's Avatar
      klamath -
      Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
      That's been trying to happen for years.
      Yes and not much chance of it happening unless the masses in the bay area and LA make breaking away legit. The majority of the state, area wise, is not as left wing as the cities. The interests of the state are not bound by the boundaries set over a century ago. People say Jefferson would be a poor state or republic but if the cities were having to pay real market value for north counties water a lot of money would come north. Right now they steal it for pennies on the dollar because they have the votes.
    1. Scrapmo's Avatar
      Scrapmo -
      I would probably move to jefferson.
    1. Ender's Avatar
      Ender -
      Quote Originally Posted by Scrapmo View Post
      I would probably move to jefferson.
      as would I.
    1. Anti Federalist's Avatar
      Anti Federalist -
      ‘California is a nation, not a state’: A fringe movement wants a break from the U.S.

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...addfa#comments

      By Katie Zezima February 18 at 5:58 PM

      T-shirts in support of Yes California at a meeting on the secessionist movement at the Hole in the Wall bar in San Diego. (Sandy Huffaker/For The Washington Post)

      SAN FRANCISCO — About 15 people huddled in a luxury apartment building, munching on danishes as they plotted out their plan to have California secede from the United States.

      “I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of an independent California,” Geoff Lewis said as he stood in a glass-walled conference room adorned with California’s grizzly-bear flag and a sign reading “California is a nation, not a state.”

      Sweaty onlookers from the gym across the hall peered in curiously.

      Bolstered by the election of President Trump, the group, Yes California, is collecting the 585,407 signatures necessary to place a secessionist question on the 2018 ballot. Its goal is to have California become its own country, separate and apart from the United States.

      [While the country shifts to the right, California keeps moving left]

      The group is advertising at protests and hosting meetups throughout California. Its leaders say the organization has ballooned to 53 chapters, each of which has meetings like the one here to plot out strategy and recruit volunteers.

      “Basically, what we’re witnessing is the birth of a nation,” said Tim Vollmer, 57, an academic consultant from San Francisco. “We can lead what’s left of the free world.”

      Their recruiting pitch goes something like this:

      California — the most populous state, with nearly 40 million residents — subsidizes other states at a loss, is burdened by a national trade system, doesn’t get a fair say in presidential elections, is diverse and disagrees with much of the rest of the country on immigration, is far ahead of other states on environmental policy and, for the most part, is diametrically opposed to Trump’s positions.

      Therefore, the argument goes, conditions are perfect for the Golden State to secede.

      Yes California primarily advertises through its Facebook page, which has about 39,000 likes and about the same number of followers; a graphic reads “divorce due to irreconcilable differences,” with a split, jagged heart depicting California on one side and the rest of the country on the other.

      “California is different from America,” said Marcus Ruiz Evans, one of the movement’s co-founders, as he sat on the patio of a Starbucks in Fresno. “California is hated. It’s not liked. It’s seen as weird.”


      “California is different from America,” says Marcus Ruiz Evans of the Yes California campaign. “California is hated. It’s not liked. It’s seen as weird.” Evans has been fighting for secession for years, and finally feels validated by the anti-Trump movement that has reignited the move to secede. (Derek Lapsley/For The Washington Post)

      Evans published a 540-page tome in 2012 on why California should secede and is using his indefatigable ability to talk about it to spread that message as far as possible, mostly through Facebook and media appearances.

      He has crusaded for California independence for years — he also protested the Obama administration — and said he thinks of himself “as Galileo, Copernicus,” a man whose theories were so revolutionary that they were dismissed until proved true.

      Evans is the main point of contact for the chapter leaders, and he handed out purple Yes California T-shirts to attendees of the meeting here. He would occasionally interject with a long, impassioned speech about the importance of California independence or to let the group know it was partnering with an environmentally friendly printer in Culver City.

      Clare Hedin, a musician and sound healer, ticked through a set of slides to help people set up their own chapters. Yes California *T-shirts should be plentiful and handed out to all attendees (wearing them in meetings is encouraged). A sense of community should be fostered, and people should be asked why they came to the meeting and how they can contribute so they feel personally invested. Each chapter leader should take a different tack; San Franciscans tend to be more touchy-feely than San Diegans, for example.

      They debated how California should handle the military. Maybe their new nation should be neutral, such as Switzerland, they mulled. Where should it get its water? Most of it, they reasoned, comes from the Sierra Nevada and the Colorado River, which are in the state. California, Evans said, is the world’s sixth-largest economy and already has money, so that will be fine. The secessionists likened their cause to the legalization of marijuana and same-sex marriage: things that seemed implausible a decade ago but are now the law here.

      Yes California doesn’t have any policy positions. Its members don’t know how the new nation’s government would be set up. The group’s goal is to first have the state secede and then figure out how it should run.

      “People are asking about the new nation’s vaccine policy, and I’m asking, ‘Are you high?’  ” said Karen Sherman, who holds group meetings at the gay dive bar she owns in San Diego. “We want to explore independence, not create a new country around vaccines.”

      The group’s biggest effort is focused on collecting signatures for the initiative. It will ask voters if they want to repeal a section of the state constitution declaring that California is an “inseparable part of the United States of America” and hold a referendum on independence on March 5, 2019. The group started collecting signatures in late January and has six months to complete the task.

      Michael Boightwood speaks during a California secession meeting in San Diego. (Sandy Huffaker/For The Washington Post)

      For supporters, Trump’s election, the desire of some Californians to lead the resistance to his presidency and the group’s growing volunteer base has given the group a semblance of credibility it has long desired.

      The group points to Silicon Valley billionaires — including Peter Thiel, who backs Trump and recently said he supports secession, and Shervin Pishevar, who tweeted after the election that he would fund a campaign for California to become its own nation.

      The state legislature hired former Obama attorney general Eric H. Holder Jr. to battle the Trump administration on issues such as immigration. Gov. Jerry Brown (D) vowed that California will continue to push measures to combat climate change and ensure Californians have health insurance coverage regardless of national policy decisions. San Francisco sued the Trump administration over sanctuary cities. But these and other elected officials have not endorsed secession. Some, including Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti, said they oppose it.

      “Ballot measures are very tough to pass when they’re understandable and you have a relative idea what the consequences are,” said Bill Carrick, Garcetti’s political consultant. “Something like this is a rabbit pulled out of a hat; there’s not a chance in the world it will pass.”

      [San Francisco sues Trump over order on sanctuary cities]

      Sue Hirsch, 46, said she is “ashamed to be an American” in the wake of the presidential election.

      “I wanted to be here [at the meeting] to be no longer American, but Californian,” said Hirsch, who voted for Hillary Clinton and said she has at least seven professions, including psychic, Uber driver and hypno-transformative masseuse. “I hate what the rest of America has become.”

      Evans and his co-founder, Louis Marinelli, are unlikely saviors of the left.

      Both men have been registered Republicans. Evans is a former conservative radio host and Marinelli once staunchly opposed same-sex marriage. (He had a change of heart in 2011, embarking on a nationwide tour to persuade conservatives to support same-sex unions.)

      Marinelli — a Buffalo native who said he so prefers California that he doesn’t like visiting his mother in New York — now lives in Yekaterinburg, Russia. He said he voted for Trump because he thought it would be good for the California secessionist cause.

      He said in an interview that he wants to return to San Diego but is working there while his Russian-born wife sorts out visa issues in the United States. His wife’s hurdles with the U.S. immigration system and frustration with gridlock in Washington led him to embrace secession. He says he also was inspired by the Scottish secessionist movement.

      But Yes California has had to fend off a torrent of questions about Russian influence. In September, Marinelli represented the group at a Moscow conference hosted by the Anti-Globalization Movement of Russia; 30 percent of conference funding came from the Russian government, but none went to Yes California, according to its organizer. Yes California opened a “cultural center” at the movement’s Moscow headquarters in December. Marinelli has compared California independence to the annexation of Crimea, and Yes California has received a flurry of news coverage from the government-funded RT.

      Marinelli said Yes California is not affiliated in any way with the Russian government.

      “We don’t have any communication with or contact with or receive any support of any kind from the Russian government or any Russian government officials,” he said, noting that people have a right to be concerned about allegations of Russian ties. But he also said that false conspiracy theories swirl around the group, including that it allegedly wants California to join Mexico or that it is funded by billionaire liberal donor George Soros.

      On the other hand, he said, “if people think that our movement is supported by the Russian government, then maybe they’ll think that this is more realistically going to happen.”

      Today's WorldView

      What's most important from where the world meets Washington

      Evans is no fan of Trump, believing he is racist, anti-
      immigrant and sexist. He said Yes California is committed to diversity, inclusion and a peaceful, legal secession. He spends most of his days on the phone, calling, emailing and texting people about the group, whose address is a Postal Annex store in a Fresno strip mall.

      Yes California has registered with the California Secretary of State’s office but has not yet reported contributions. Marinelli wants to hire a professional fundraiser and paid staff.

      At the San Francisco meetup, some were more optimistic than others about the idea of the referendum actually passing. Most acknowledged the chances were slim. But they’re willing to try, as many times as it takes.

      “Our whole point is not to get this initiative passed,” Evans said. “It’s to get it in the minds of 40 million people.”
    1. oyarde's Avatar
      oyarde -
      Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
      I'm glad to see it too.

      But it's interesting in its irony. California would essentially be relinquishing the influence it has over the rest of the states as a way of protesting not having enough influence over them.
      Tastes like victory .


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    The fact that the medical system and the U.S. government diet police (USDA and FDA) are very upset that Americans are eating more coconut oil is very obvious. They are trying hard to sway public opinion, using the corporate-sponsored “mainstream” media. The corporate-sponsored “mainstream” media, funded in large part by the pharmaceutical industry, is promoting a lecture given in German by...

    Last Post By: donnay 09-19-2018, 03:09 PM Go to last post
  • Education & Thought Power

    uncharted

    Asia - Recommended readings?

    Thread Starter: uncharted

    Currently, my primary interests in regards to Asia include: Opium Wars Chinese Imperial Examinations Civil Service Examinations (British India) British East India Company Caste System Mahatma Gandhi Christianity (ex: Attempted conversions in India, anti-Christian movements, Christian missionaries China, etc.) - Gandhi: "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your...

    Last Post By: AZJoe Yesterday, 07:57 PM Go to last post
    euphemia

    Let's Make America America Again

    Thread Starter: euphemia

    If you want to go back to watch Scott Baio's speech, you can. It was only about four and a half minutes. He concluded with the line, "Let's make America America again." This is a sentence that makes me want to ask, "What is America?" If our Founding Fathers were here today and scripting a return to America, what would that look like to you?

    Last Post By: Swordsmyth Yesterday, 05:59 PM Go to last post
    TheDrakeMan

    Modern Day Stoicism?

    Thread Starter: TheDrakeMan

    Anyone interested in stoicism? I became interested after reading this article by William B. Irvine: Article source: boingboing.net/2010/10/27/twenty-first-century-2.html http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195374614/boingboing

    Last Post By: AZJoe Yesterday, 05:24 PM Go to last post
    timosman

    Deep State as the natural state of the State.

    Thread Starter: timosman

    Poll attached.

    Last Post By: Swordsmyth Yesterday, 04:18 PM Go to last post
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