Iowa Straw Poll - Diebold

[G-khan]

I understand they use the electronic Diebold machines for the straw poll? If that is true is there any plans to make sure we do not get the results stolen from us? If not I suggest we come up with something to ensure that any rigging is detected?

What can we do?

[Slugg]

I understand they use the electronic Diebold machines for the straw poll? If that is true is there any plans to make sure we do not get the results stolen from us? If not I suggest we come up with something to ensure that any rigging is detected?

What can we do?

Pray. That's all I got for now. Sorry, I'm halfway around the world right now :( .

[G-khan]

Pray. That's all I got for now. Sorry, I'm halfway around the world right now :( .

I also will pray and I will pray that someone that is there is making sure that we get a real count and vote..

[Slugg]

I also will pray and I will pray that someone that is there is making sure that we get a real count and vote..

Amen! :D

[foofighter20x]

I heard that they are using Diebold machines, but they are optical scan machines, which means that the machine counts a physical paper ballot (think of those high school "fill in the bubble" test sheets)...

I could have heard wrong though...

[AZJV]

California voting machines hacked within seconds.

CNN reports:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/07/31/todd.ca.evoting.flaws.cnn

No electronic voting machines are safe for a democracy. None. Period!!!

[Avalon]

I heard that they are using Diebold machines, but they are optical scan machines, which means that the machine counts a physical paper ballot (think of those high school "fill in the bubble" test sheets)...

I could have heard wrong though...

That's of no consequence if the ballots and ballot boxes are not carefully inspected, guarded, and transported and the ballots themselves are not counted in full by hand. It appears this isn't and won't be the case and no one here or anywhere else seemed motivated to do anything about it. It's really too late now.

[G-khan]

California voting machines hacked within seconds.

CNN reports:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/07/31/todd.ca.evoting.flaws.cnn

No electronic voting machines are safe for a democracy. None. Period!!!

This scares me, all our hard work and time could be stolen in a flash...

We need a couple of people doing exit polls or something as a check... and they should not be wearing RP shirts or carrying RP political items...

[Kregener]

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s167/Kregener/Diebold.jpg

[foofighter20x]

That's of no consequence if the ballots and ballot boxes are not carefully inspected, guarded, and transported and the ballots themselves are not counted in full by hand. It appears this isn't and won't be the case and no one here or anywhere else seemed motivated to do anything about it. It's really too late now.

Why are they even transporting the ballots off facililty? That makes no sense.

Question is, are they really doing that, or is it just assumed that they are?

No one here has yet to come up with any factual evidence.

[Dave]

Why are they even transporting the ballots off facililty? That makes no sense.

Question is, are they really doing that, or is it just assumed that they are?

No one here has yet to come up with any factual evidence.

The only 'facts' we have are here:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=7941

Check the documents in post #17 for info on the ballot process.

I've heard there will be an audit of the vote tally on 8/13 but I have no more info on that.

[G-khan]

I hope someone in Iowa thinks this is important enough to try and make sure all our hard work is not stolen. NH and other states take note and make sure we get a fair shake. IMO we need a group of people just to make sure we have honest vote counts.

[foofighter20x]

The only 'facts' we have are here:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=7941

Check the documents in post #17 for info on the ballot process.

I've heard there will be an audit of the vote tally on 8/13 but I have no more info on that.

According to the Iowa Secretrary of State website:

Story County (which includes Ames) uses PC-OS (Precinct-Optical Scan) Voting Machines. (http://www.sos.state.ia.us/pdfs/elections/CoVoteSystem.pdf)

I don't see what the worry is.

[G-khan]

According to the Iowa Secretrary of State website:

Story County (which includes Ames) uses PC-OS (Precinct-Optical Scan) Voting Machines. (http://www.sos.state.ia.us/pdfs/elections/CoVoteSystem.pdf)

I don't see what the worry is.

If they can keep RP at 1% as they have done in all their official polls and have the straw poll confirm it IMO you can kiss the good Dr's. chances goodbye..

Do they allow exit polls?

[Larofeticus]

They use optical scan ballots. There will be a paper trail and an audit the night of the poll. Plus there will be everyones supporters lurking all over the place. With so many low tier candidates, everyone will be suspicious and guarded of fraud. Plus, the risk isn't worth it; evidence of fraud would ruin the veneer of legitimacy for the whole process.

[Paulitician]

California voting machines hacked within seconds.

CNN reports:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/07/31/todd.ca.evoting.flaws.cnn

No electronic voting machines are safe for a democracy. None. Period!!!
Ridiculous! I can't believe how easily they pass it off as nothing. "Don't worry guys, come election day everything will be fine. Trust us." Oh my, sure thing! I also love how they never consider that someone from the inside, one of those responsible for protecting the machines, could potentially hack the machines too. Shouldn't it be an outrage that these machines are hackable in the first place? I guess our democratic Republic isn't worth all that much.

[foofighter20x]

If they can keep RP at 1% as they have done in all their official polls and have the straw poll confirm it IMO you can kiss the good Dr's. chances goodbye..

Do they allow exit polls?

You do understand that an optical scan machine uses a paper ballot, right?

If the results are contested, there is a paper ballot trail that can be counted.

Again, I honestly don't see what the worry is.

[Lord Xar]

They use optical scan ballots. There will be a paper trail and an audit the night of the poll. Plus there will be everyones supporters lurking all over the place. With so many low tier candidates, everyone will be suspicious and guarded of fraud. Plus, the risk isn't worth it; evidence of fraud would ruin the veneer of legitimacy for the whole process.

hahahahahah... that didn't seem to bother them the NUMEROUS times that fraud was detected and just silently forgotten about..

see, the thing is... they know what will a happen, a huge uproar .. and a month later, business as usual.

Listen, they had a DOCUMENTARY about this.... "hacking democracry" -- and there was a story just in the paper today about how easy it is to 'hack' these machines.. YET, these same companies that have..

1. secret code
2. secret counts
3. secret location

say.."oh, its unrealistic etc..."... ITS FRIGGIN FRAUD.. yet , nobody is doing anything about it..

yet, BUSH put two border patrol agents in jail for shooting a multi-convicted drug smuggler - yet he pardons libby, and does NOTHING ABOUT THIS!!!!

We truly need a revolution...

[Lord Xar]

You do understand that an optical scan machine uses a paper ballot, right?

If the results are contested, there is a paper ballot trail that can be counted.

Again, I honestly don't see what the worry is.

There was a paper trail before... didn't matter.

[dseisner]

Weren't there paper ballots in the 2000 election? Didn't they have "trouble" counting them causing about 7 recounts? That was a much more important vote as well...It's clear, we cannot trust electronic voting machines, counters, of any of the above. Is it really that much harder/more expensive that we can't just go back to how we did it for a couple hundred years? These machines only make it easier for evil people to achieve what they need to. Didn't anyone see Heroes??

[foofighter20x]

Weren't there paper ballots in the 2000 election? Didn't they have "trouble" counting them causing about 7 recounts? That was a much more important vote as well...It's clear, we cannot trust electronic voting machines, counters, of any of the above. Is it really that much harder/more expensive that we can't just go back to how we did it for a couple hundred years? These machines only make it easier for evil people to achieve what they need to. Didn't anyone see Heroes??

Totally irrelevant as they used different ballots.

The problem in FL was butterfly ballots that didn't align with the hole you had to punch. Also, you had to clearly and completely punch a hole.

Optical scan ballots are ones where you take a pen and darken a bubble. There's no hole that needs punching and all the bubbles line up with the candidate's name.

One bubble is inked in on the paper ballot, the paper ballot is then feed through a machine to be scanned to count the votes based on the filled in bubble.

If the machine miscounts or the count is contested, there's a clear paper trail to use for a hand recount.

Quit worrying! :p

[foofighter20x]

There was a paper trail before... didn't matter.

As I said above, it wasn't a similar kind of paper trail.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

And it's coming across as paranoia. Just relax, bro. :)

[dseisner]

Totally irrelevant as they used different ballots.

The problem in FL was butterfly ballots that didn't align with the hole you had to punch. Also, you had to clearly and completely punch a hole.

Optical scan ballots are ones where you take a pen and darken a bubble. There's no hole that needs punching and all the bubbles line up with the candidate's name.

One bubble is inked in on the paper ballot, the paper ballot is then feed through a machine to be scanned to count the votes based on the filled in bubble.

If the machine miscounts or the count is contested, there's a clear paper trail to use for a hand recount.

Quit worrying! :p

Yea, I know they were different, but that's not my point. My point is if we were just counting them by hand, we wouldn't be having these machine-related problems. Who's to say they will be willing to give up the ballots if we do contest? Then who recounts them if they do agree? It's easy to avoid all this if they're counted in front of everybody, by hand, then notarized. I'm not particularly worried I just think this electronic ballotting thing is a slippery slope. If we use it at the straw poll, then people will expect it at the elections, and we can't have that.

[Freedom]

According to the Iowa Secretrary of State website:

Story County (which includes Ames) uses PC-OS (Precinct-Optical Scan) Voting Machines. (http://www.sos.state.ia.us/pdfs/elections/CoVoteSystem.pdf)

I don't see what the worry is.

Here is a video about hacking OPTICAL SCAN voting machines! Note how every vote looks like it is being counted properly until you look at the final tabulation!

http://www.livevideo.com/video/56A9F628EE3E45DF901B9F4944D9B314/hacking-a-dieblold-voting-mach.aspx (http://www.livevideo.com/video/56A9F628EE3E45DF901B9F4944D9B314/hacking-a-dieblold-voting-mach.aspx)

[G-khan]

You trust them if you want - I don't!

[foofighter20x]

Here is a video about hacking OPTICAL SCAN voting machines! Note how every vote looks like it is being counted properly until you look at the final tabulation!

http://www.livevideo.com/video/56A9F628EE3E45DF901B9F4944D9B314/hacking-a-dieblold-voting-mach.aspx (http://www.livevideo.com/video/56A9F628EE3E45DF901B9F4944D9B314/hacking-a-dieblold-voting-mach.aspx)

Still doesn't hack the paper trail.

Again, what's the worry?

[Birdlady]

You do understand that an optical scan machine uses a paper ballot, right?

If the results are contested, there is a paper ballot trail that can be counted.

Again, I honestly don't see what the worry is.

The worry is that let's say every bubble is supposed to be worth 1 point. Well the bubble where Giuliani and Romney is located is actually giving them 1.2 and 1.4! That is another way there can be voting fraud that most people don't consider or even think about.

They rig how the points are calculated! Haven't you ever taken one of those bubble tests where your teacher messes up with the key and it marks things wrong when it shouldn't have been wrong? It's a simple concept like that.

FooFighter, I certainly don't trust those election officials anymore than I do Bush or Cheney... Yeah there is a paper trail but they usually count those things behind closed doors. They aren't reliable anymore than an electronic system. Unfortunately, NO matter what system we put in place, if someone wanted to commit fraud, they would FIND a way to do it. Sad, but true.

[foofighter20x]

The worry is that let's say every bubble is supposed to be worth 1 point. Well the bubble where Giuliani and Romney is located is actually giving them 1.2 and 1.4! That is another way there can be voting fraud that most people don't consider or even think about.

They rig how the points are calculated! Haven't you ever taken one of those bubble tests where your teacher messes up with the key and it marks things wrong when it shouldn't have been wrong? It's a simple concept like that.

Again, that still doesn't hack the paper ballot in a hand recount...

What's the worry?

[electric]

hi all,
i have heard that paperless diebold electronic machines are going to be used at the iowa strawpoll. all of us understand the implications of this. nothing we can do can change that so we need to try to improve the situation the best we can.

the time to have a plan to combat this and have some sort of exit poll available is now and not the day of.

i dont have any of the answers. i have no experience in exit polling. a few things come to mind though that should be considered.

1) somebody needs to find out where people are placing their votes at the grounds and where the best place to setup an exit poll would be. it would also be helpful to contact coordinators of the strawpoll and work with them to setup something that works for everybody. hopefully they will accomodate us.

2) people will be needed to volunteer to both witness whats going on around the voting area and to also video tape things (if possible) to help prevent any funny business. if there are lots of cameras rolling there is a lower chance of fraud. again everybody needs to bring video cameras and document what goes on at the straw poll. maybe people could take 30 minutes shifts at the voting area so they dont have to spend the whole day there.

what do you all think? i apologize if this has already been discussed.

regards,
electric

[G-khan]

Again, that still doesn't hack the paper ballot in a hand recount...

What's the worry?

I was taught a long time ago when I asked to buy some gold and silver - if you don't hold it you don't own it. Like putting money in a bank you may think it is there and it is not.. Those holding the paper ballots I assume you know and trust not to change them or replace them?

[John of Des Moines]

Your concerns are valid and people are working on making sure the straw poll tally is correct. I've been working with several people from around the country that share your concerns. There will be a parallel vote across the street in the protesters area. And the Diebold machines are of the optical scan type with the paper ballot being held for later auditing.

[JoshLowry]

There will be a parallel vote across the street in the protesters area.

There is a designated protestors area?

[ghemminger]

There is a designated protestors area?

John, could you go into detail...perhaps another thread regarding the efforts to prevent Fraud in this Straw poll...all I know is:

1. There is a Grassroots National group setting up a paralell election process in need of vollunteers and donations.

2. I have one contact regarding this and she lives in California

3. Many of the older members experienced first hand what the GOP is "capable of" when Patrick Buchanan lost

4. Attorneys, avidavits and Legal and Political Pressure is being brought to bear upon the local GOP to guarantee a "truthful" out come by means of either/all:

a. Paper counting by actual human beings, in public, oversight by all candidate representitives

b. Video/Audio recording of Votes

c. Legal Protesting

Ect...This is what I have heard...clarrification???

[Avalon]

Your concerns are valid and people are working on making sure the straw poll tally is correct. I've been working with several people from around the country that share your concerns. There will be a parallel vote across the street in the protesters area. And the Diebold machines are of the optical scan type with the paper ballot being held for later auditing.

Regardless of what people are doing to make sure the tally is correct, it won't matter unless the entire process is audited...and it seems evident that will not. Someone trying to rig the poll is going to try not to get caught...s/he'll focus on the weakest link in the process. A solitary individual could easily rig this poll and without considerable effort an external vote/exit poll will not prove anything. And most likely, rigging a straw poll isn't even against the law.

Anyway, I documented how such an (undeniable, credible, auditable) external election could be carried out here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=77455&postcount=9) if anyone is actually interested in doing something about this. Looks like it's too late for step 1 and probably too late for 3 and 6 without a major cash injection.


here's (http://www.bradblog.com/?p=4071) what happened (http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_bob_fitr_070326_new_ohio_evidence_ex.htm) in Ohio (http://mparent7777-2.blogspot.com/2007/07/in-violation-of-federal-law-ohios-2004.html)
Anyone want the 411 on Florida?

[Oregon 4 RP]

Still doesn't hack the paper trail.

Again, what's the worry?

"What's the worry?":cool:

A "paper trail" is absolutely meaningless unless the campaign has access to the paper. The worry is that Romney, for one, has spent a ton of money in Iowa and, political machinations being the staple of politics, he would be motivated to do whatever it takes to protect his investment. You do not have to be paranoid, only a realist, to be very concerned about the legitimacy of this vote.

If the Ron Paul campaign does not insist on having access to the paper ballots, after they have been "filled in" and scanned, so that they can monitor a hand count of those ballots, then they will have done all their hard working supporters a great disservice.

To "not worry" about the count would be incredibly irresponsible.:mad:

[Oregon 4 RP]

Still doesn't hack the paper trail.

Again, what's the worry?

"What's the worry?":cool:

A "paper trail" is absolutely meaningless unless the campaign has access to the paper. The worry is that Romney, for one, has spent a ton of money in Iowa and, political machinations being the staple of politics, he would be motivated to do whatever it takes to protect his investment. You do not have to be paranoid, only a realist, to be very concerned about the legitimacy of this vote.

If the Ron Paul campaign does not insist on having access to the paper ballots, after they have been "filled in" and scanned, so that they can monitor a hand count of those ballots, then they will have done all their hard working supporters a great disservice.

To "not worry" about the count would be incredibly irresponsible.:mad:

[wecandoit]

why worry?

The possibly hacked count will be the quickest tally and the first thing announced.
It doesn't matter that we might have a paper tally saying otherwise. Even if we can get our hands on it and use it to prove the machines stole our votes, it'll take time and it'll be well after the phony results have been announced far and wide.

It's no so much who actually wins the vote, it's about who is announced as having won the vote.

After the fact, we'll just be called sore losers and crybabies regardless of how much evidence we have.

[foofighter20x]

I was taught a long time ago when I asked to buy some gold and silver - if you don't hold it you don't own it. Like putting money in a bank you may think it is there and it is not.. Those holding the paper ballots I assume you know and trust not to change them or replace them?

Gee, paranoid much?

I think the county precinct commissioners are in all probability above that sort of behavior. One or two might stoop to that low, but I think most of them are genuinely interested in have a fair and accurate vote and enforcing the law, which would counteract any attempts to tamper with the physical ballots.

Edit: If it bothers you people that much, then you need to stop lobbing shit bombs and go to Iowa and watch the event yourself. No taking the Dr Evil approach of just leaving and assuming everything has went to plan. If you aren't going to put your money where your mouth is on accusations of voter fraud, then you need to sit down and be quiet. Until you offer up anything that indicates the elections officials are probably crooked, then all you are doing is needlessly slandering/libeling them. Is it any wonder other supporters look on us with a little disdain when you guys act that way? Christ... :rolleyes:

[Avalon]

Gee, paranoid much?

I think the county precinct commissioners are in all probability above that sort of behavior. One or two might stoop to that low, but I think most of them are genuinely interested in have a fair and accurate vote and enforcing the law, which would counteract any attempts to tamper with the physical ballots.

It only takes one person to stuff ballots...it may even be possible by a voter.

[foofighter20x]

And I doubt that happens considering the description of the poll (http://files.meetup.com/507643/Iowa%20GOP%20-%20Ames%20Straw%20Poll%20Info%20-%207-19-07.pdf) indicates a strict custody chain.

Or are just another that has not read that paper?

[Birdlady]

Gee, paranoid much?

I think the county precinct commissioners are in all probability above that sort of behavior. One or two might stoop to that low, but I think most of them are genuinely interested in have a fair and accurate vote and enforcing the law, which would counteract any attempts to tamper with the physical ballots.

Edit: If it bothers you people that much, then you need to stop lobbing shit bombs and go to Iowa and watch the event yourself. No taking the Dr Evil approach of just leaving and assuming everything has went to plan. If you aren't going to put your money where your mouth is on accusations of voter fraud, then you need to sit down and be quiet. Until you offer up anything that indicates the elections officials are probably crooked, then all you are doing is needlessly slandering/libeling them. Is it any wonder other supporters look on us with a little disdain when you guys act that way? Christ... :rolleyes:

Please read this http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-4.pdf
and check out Bev Harris' website. http://www.blackboxvoting.org

I am sorry to tell you this, but you are VERY naive!

[foofighter20x]

I've read the black box stuff when it first came out, and I saw the little documentary on the hacking when it first came out too.

There's gonna be like 20,000 people there at the least. I'm sure each camp can find someone to keep a watch on the watchers.

But seriously, if my basic faith in humans is naïveté, then your unfounded distrust is paranoia.


Let's meet in the middle, eh? You have a little more faith in people and I'll be a little more skeptical.


One question no has addressed: I get the parallel vote going on, but why not just have all Ron Paul supporters go to the RP Area and log their vote so the campaign will have an idea of their numbers?

Edit: You still have yet to offer any indication of any 'conspiracy' or intent to rig the vote. And legally, the only burden you need to meet to trigger an investigation is probable cause, a pretty low standard of proof which none of you so far have met.

[mackler]

it seems to me that if these black boxes are so hackable, Ron Paul ought to be able to win easily, if you catch my drift.

[freelance]

Edit: You still have yet to offer any indication of any 'conspiracy' or intent to rig the vote. And legally, the only burden you need to meet to trigger an investigation is probable cause, a pretty low standard of proof which none of you so far have met.

It's Not the People Who Vote that Count; It's the People Who Count the Votes...

Florida, Ohio, New Mexico (?). Oh yeah, and who owns Diebold and all the other voting machines? TPTB And, who doesn't want to see Ron Paul elected? TBTB

Plenty of possible of recounts have gone uncounted, even with probable cause. And, one was stopped by SCOTUS--mid-recount.

[foofighter20x]

It's Not the People Who Vote that Count; It's the People Who Count the Votes...

Florida, Ohio, New Mexico (?). Oh yeah, and who owns Diebold and all the other voting machines? TPTB And, who doesn't want to see Ron Paul elected? TBTB

Plenty of possible of recounts have gone uncounted, even with probable cause. And, one was stopped by SCOTUS--mid-recount.

And how were any of those crimes? Where is the criminal wrongdoing? The burden of proof is on you to show the machine were probably tampered with, either by some form of proof/evidence or an affidavit from a witness, not just on your own conjecture.

Take a course in Administration of Justice. You might learn somethin'.

[freelance]

That wasn't offered as evidence. It was offered for consideration!

But you might be interested in this:

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_2249.shtml

[Avalon]

And I doubt that happens considering the description of the poll (http://files.meetup.com/507643/Iowa%20GOP%20-%20Ames%20Straw%20Poll%20Info%20-%207-19-07.pdf) indicates a strict custody chain.

Or are just another that has not read that paper?

Yes I read that paper...it has no information that is useful in this regard.

[Avalon]

And how were any of those crimes? Where is the criminal wrongdoing?
Did you read the links I put up on Ohio? Employees are rotting in jail right now for rigging a recount in one county, in another county an employee testified an ES&S employee rigged tabulators to return the same result as returned in the first count, and wrote up a cheat sheet for employees to use to "prove" the recount returned the same result. And lastly, tens of thousands of ballots that the Green and Libertarian party are pursuing to have recounted, were "accidentally" destroyed...despite a court order requiring them to retain them. We wouldn't even know about any of these scandals if the employees themselves didn't admit to them and if the Green/Libertarian parties weren't willing to fork out $120k for the recount and all the legal fees to pursue the matter.

And regarding the straw poll...the first time they used the machines in '95 there was a two hour behind doors deliberation before announcing that Dole and Gramm had tied 2582 to 2582.

[freelance]

Avaon, please don't confuse us with the FACTS! :eek: