Abortion is not a political issue

[minitri97]

Its been going on since around 1500 bc. There is absolutely nothing that can be done to stop it from happening. I don't mean to be crude, but its not really that complicated of a procedure. Abortion is simply a ploy politicians use to gather support. Every republican since Reagon has said they want to put a stop to it, and THEY REALIZE its not gonna happen.
I only say this b/c of a couple of posts here on how to talk to people about abortion/politics. Simple, tell them one has NOTHING to do with the other.

[Dr.3D]

It is certainly not a Federal Government political issue. It is a state issue! If the state one lives in wishes to allow doctors to do abortions, then more power to them. If a state does not want to allow doctors to do abortions, then a person can always go to a state that does and get one anyway.

The Federal Government should not tell the states to allow or not allow abortion, it's not the job of the Federal Government.

[AzNsOuLjAh27]

Abortion is up to the people having the baby, not the government not the state, no one but them.

[Devil_rules_in_extremes]

Its been going on since around 1500 bc. There is absolutely nothing that can be done to stop it from happening. I don't mean to be crude, but its not really that complicated of a procedure. Abortion is simply a ploy politicians use to gather support. Every republican since Reagon has said they want to put a stop to it, and THEY REALIZE its not gonna happen.
I only say this b/c of a couple of posts here on how to talk to people about abortion/politics. Simple, tell them one has NOTHING to do with the other.

Your right it's not a government issue. It's a LIFE issue.

Life, Liberty, Property.

You have the right to those things.

[minitri97]

So.....if you have a "right" to those three things, and that applies to abortion...who is supposed to enforce that "right" except the government?

[Devil_rules_in_extremes]

So.....if you have a "right" to those three things, and that applies to abortion...who is supposed to enforce that "right" except the government?

Your right. Government should be enforcing murder laws, and protecting individual babies rights to Life.

[JMann]

Abortion is a political issue but Roe V. Wade is.

[minitri97]

So are you saying abortion is a government issue or not? Your post seem to contradict.
devilrulesextreme guy

[minitri97]

Roe V wade is an abortion issue, they are not seperate things.

[Devil_rules_in_extremes]

So are you saying abortion is a government issue or not? Your post seem to contradict.
devilrulesextreme guy

Semantics.

I'll tell you what I'm saying. The government needs to PROTECT ALL INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS. That includes the life of unborn babies. Plain and simple.

[minitri97]

Its not semantics.
You are saying that life should be guaranteed by the government and abortions are taking away that right. Therefore, abortions should be stopped by the government. Thats fine, but don't pretend to say its not a government issue.

[Eponym_mi]

It is a state issue! If the state one lives in wishes to allow doctors to do abortions, then more power to them. If a state does not want to allow doctors to do abortions, then a person can always go to a state that does and get one anyway.

Regulating doctors only drives it underground...it doesn't stop it. Short of 24/7 police state monitoring of all potentially fertile wombs, I'd like to know how you intend to stop a woman that wants and is determined to have an abortion. While you're at it, tell me how to stop someone from committing suicide.

I'm pro-life, and I'm sorry, but this isn't even a state issue. It is an individual issue that needs to be addressed person to person.

[Devil_rules_in_extremes]

Its not semantics.
You are saying that life should be guaranteed by the government and abortions are taking away that right. Therefore, abortions should be stopped by the government. Thats fine, but don't pretend to say its not a government issue.

Ok. Fine. IT'S A GOVERNMENT ISSUE. Happy?

I happen to think government's only duty is to protect individual rights. Those inalienable individual rights include; Life, Liberty, and Property.

So therefore government has a duty to protect the life of unborn children.

If my wife is pregnant, and I kill my wife along with the baby in her womb, I WILL be charged with TWO murders.

Same thing should apply with abortion.

[Dr.3D]

Regulating doctors only drives it underground...it doesn't stop it. Short of 24/7 police state monitoring of all potentially fertile wombs, I'd like to know how you intend to stop a woman that wants and is determined to have an abortion. While you're at it, tell me how to stop someone from committing suicide.

I'm pro-life, and I'm sorry, but this isn't even a state issue. It is an individual issue that needs to be addressed person to person.

Correct. We can outlaw murder and it is the same way. Short of a 24/7 police state monitoring of all potential murderers. There is nothing we can do to stop someone who is determined to murder somebody. I guess if you think someone is apt to commit suicide, you could put them in a rubber walled room.

As for being an individual issue, I guess the person someone wants to murder can address that with the one who wants murder him.

[Devil_rules_in_extremes]

Regulating doctors only drives it underground...it doesn't stop it. Short of 24/7 police state monitoring of all potentially fertile wombs, I'd like to know how you intend to stop a woman that wants and is determined to have an abortion. While you're at it, tell me how to stop someone from committing suicide.

I'm pro-life, and I'm sorry, but this isn't even a state issue. It is an individual issue that needs to be addressed person to person.

Sorry bud, but that doesn't cut it. So just because the government can't prevent murder, or burglaries means they shouldn't enforce the law? Or try to solve those cases? I don't think so.

When the actions you take interfere or violate another person's individuals rights, the government should prosecute you.

[steph3n]

Your right it's not a government issue. It's a LIFE issue.

Life, Liberty, Property.

You have the right to those things.

since I am 100% sure that a fetus is a living creature, I also have the 'right' to kill you as well? :confused:

[ambiguousscion]

Regulating doctors only drives it underground...it doesn't stop it. Short of 24/7 police state monitoring of all potentially fertile wombs, I'd like to know how you intend to stop a woman that wants and is determined to have an abortion. While you're at it, tell me how to stop someone from committing suicide.

I'm pro-life, and I'm sorry, but this isn't even a state issue. It is an individual issue that needs to be addressed person to person.

If we agree that it is a life and the life must be protected, then it doesn't matter if it gets "driven under ground"... the fact is that if a state calls it "murder" to whatever degree, they must enforce the law. You wouldn't say that if murder happens no matter what the law, then we must make it legal... or stealing is going to happen anyway so we must legalize stealing.

[Devil_rules_in_extremes]

since I am 100% sure that a fetus is a living creature, I also have the 'right' to kill you as well? :confused:

Please read my later posts....

[axiomata]

"Abortion is not a political issue"

It wasn't until Roe v. Wade.

[Richandler]

I read this and I realized. Murder has been going on since 1500 BC too and there is a good chance you won't stop that either.

[ambiguousscion]

since I am 100% sure that a fetus is a living creature, I also have the 'right' to kill you as well? :confused:

If we get the right judges elected and put forth a case at the right point in history, I can probably make a good case for taking your life as long as nobody will speak on your behalf.

[Dr.3D]

Its been going on since around 1500 bc. There is absolutely nothing that can be done to stop it from happening. I don't mean to be crude, but its not really that complicated of a procedure. Abortion is simply a ploy politicians use to gather support. Every republican since Reagon has said they want to put a stop to it, and THEY REALIZE its not gonna happen.
I only say this b/c of a couple of posts here on how to talk to people about abortion/politics. Simple, tell them one has NOTHING to do with the other.

Murder has been going on since around 1500 bc too... yes, there is nothing any kind of government can do to keep it from happening. It can however make it illegal and let people know what will happen to them if they get caught doing it.

It almost sounds like you believe nothing can be done to slow the crime rate. While it is true, nobody can stop a crime from being committed, the state can make a law indicating what will happen if someone gets caught committing that crime. This tends to help keep crimes from being committed.

The real issue is about who gets to make the law. The state or the Federal Government.

Yes, there are actually people out there who think nothing is against the law if they don't get caught.

[Devil_rules_in_extremes]

If we get the right judges elected and put forth a case at the right point in history, I can probably make a good case for taking your life as long as nobody will speak on your behalf.

No one speaks for the unborn baby, just before it's brains get sucked out by a vaccume. OHHH WAIT, yes their is somebody. The dead beat mother of the baby, who accidentally got pregnant because she didn't do the proper, adult-like thing and use protection, or use self control and abstain and is now using abortion as a form of "Birth Control".

Society's attitude about life is sad.

[minitri97]

My point is that it is not a political issue other than to get votes. Several candidates in recent years have been elected based partially on saying that they are against abortion, or for that matter saying that they are "prochoice". The candidates against abortion, Reagan/Bush #1/Bush #2 have not done a single thing about it once elected. For at least a little while during those 20 years in office, they had control of Congress as well. And yet no overturning of R v. W. All I'm saying is that the political aspect of it is a complete scam.

[Dr.3D]

My point is that it is not a political issue other than to get votes. Several candidates in recent years have been elected based partially on saying that they are against abortion, or for that matter saying that they are "prochoice". The candidates against abortion, Reagan/Bush #1/Bush #2 have not done a single thing about it once elected. For at least a little while during those 20 years in office, they had control of Congress as well. And yet no overturning of R v. W. All I'm saying is that the political aspect of it is a complete scam.

Yes, they say anything they need to say to get elected.

Ron Paul is not "pro-choice" but instead "pro-life" but that should make no difference to those who vote for him. He believes it is not the job of the Federal Government to dictate to the states as to how they should view the subject.

For the other candidates though, it is a bit different. They could make it a Federal Government issue and dictate to the states on the subject. So people think it is necessary to elect somebody who agrees with them.

[Eponym_mi]

We can outlaw murder and it is the same way. Short of a 24/7 police state monitoring of all potential murderers. There is nothing we can do to stop someone who is determined to murder somebody. I guess if you think someone is apt to commit suicide, you could put them in a rubber walled room.

As for being an individual issue, I guess the person someone wants to murder can address that with the one who wants murder him.

It seems you're advocating 24/7 police state monitoring of all wombs, a very invasive snitch program, or some kind of police sting operation. All potentially fertile women would need to be checked monthly, and pregnant women would have to be locked up because they might committ suicide, have an illegal abortion, or go to another state or country and have one legally.

When a person is murdered, someone usually notices and reports it. Unless the woman does so herself, who is going to notice and report that a woman is no longer pregnant? The woman also happens to be an accomplice, but I rarely, if ever, hear anyone advocating that these women be charged. No, that would be too drastic.:rolleyes:

Add to that the very real possibility that illegal abortions would more likely be performed improperly or outside of a medical environment and possibly result in the death of the woman along with the fetus. Sorry, I cannot understand anyone that would ignore this, because I think you're saying that two dead people would be better than one dead person.

I don't condone or advocate abortion. I don't want to pay for them through taxes or in any other way, nor do I want to involuntarily pay for anyone else's illegitimate children. Beyond that, I think the cost, effectiveness, moral hazards, and side effects of any of gov't involvement make the idea of further criminalizing or regulating abortion ridiculous.

This isn't a problem that gov't can solve...it is a family issue or more broadly a social network issue.

[Dr.3D]

It seems you're advocating 24/7 police state monitoring of all wombs, a very invasive snitch program, or some kind of police sting operation. All potentially fertile women would need to be checked monthly, and pregnant women would have to be locked up because they might committ suicide, have an illegal abortion, or go to another state or country and have one legally.

When a person is murdered, someone usually notices and reports it. Unless the woman does so herself, who is going to notice and report that a woman is no longer pregnant? The woman also happens to be an accomplice, but I rarely, if ever, hear anyone advocating that these women be charged. No, that would be too drastic.:rolleyes:

Add to that the very real possibility that illegal abortions would more likely be performed improperly or outside of a medical environment and possibly result in the death of the woman along with the fetus. Sorry, I cannot understand anyone that would ignore this, because I think you're saying that two dead people would be better than one dead person.

I don't condone or advocate abortion. I don't want to pay for them through taxes or in any other way, nor do I want to involuntarily pay for anyone else's illegitimate children. Beyond that, I think the cost, effectiveness, moral hazards, and side effects of any of gov't involvement make the idea of criminalizing or regulating abortion ridiculous.

This isn't a problem that gov't can solve...it is a family issue or more broadly a social network issue.

You misunderstand what I was saying... I just said a parallel to what had been posted and I was addressing that post. Please read the rest of my posts and perhaps you will understand what I was talking about.

[Eponym_mi]

You misunderstand what I was saying... I just said a parallel to what had been posted and I was addressing that post. Please read the rest of my posts and perhaps you will understand what I was talking about.

What is there to understand? You want it criminalized? Yeah, you created more government and really took care of the problem. :rolleyes:

[Dr.3D]

What is there to understand? You want it criminalized? Yeah, you created more government and really took care of the problem. :rolleyes:

Obviously you have not read the entire thread.

I don't give a crap it if is legal or not!

1) It is not for the Federal Government to dictate to the states about abortion, pro or con.

2) Presently, the Federal Government has overstepped its authority by telling the states what they have to do in regards to abortion.

3) It is the responsibility of the states if they want to make it illegal or not.

4) Ron Paul is pro-life.... so am I.... but that doesn't matter. It should never matter if the president is pro-life or pro-choice. Because the president does not have the authority to dictate to the states how they should view abortion.

5) I don't want to have bigger government.... no... not in the least.... I want a much, much smaller government. We need to do what the constitution says and let each of the states make their decision as to if they want abortion to be legal or not.

6) I don't believe anybody should be made to pay for anything somebody else wants to do. That is socialism! Let those who want to have an abortion pay for it themselves! If they live in a state where they can't get one, then let them get in the car and go to another state where it is legal and then they can pay to get it done.

Now am I clear on this issue?

[Eponym_mi]

Now am I clear on this issue?

Your position at the state level is unclear, but clear at the federal level. I agree with everything you said in that respect.

[Dr.3D]

Your position at the state level is unclear, but clear at the federal level. I agree with everything you said in that respect.

Each state should have the right to make it's own laws as to what is legal or illegal.
These laws are controlled by the people who elect those in that state making the laws. A law should not be passed in the state until it has been voted on by the people in that state.

Some states for example may feel it is fine for people to go around without clothes on.
As long as the people in those states voted to allow it then the law would allow such a thing. The same goes for anything the people of a state would like to make legal or illegal. This is much better than having a big Federal Government taking the rights of the people in all of the states away by just telling the states what is going to be the law.

Some states may elect to have no drug laws... and the same thing holds true.

You can see how this is much better than what is presently happening right?

[Eponym_mi]

Each state should have the right to make it's own laws as to what is legal or illegal.

I was asking your personal position at a state level. We had a vote about criminalizing abortion years ago in Michigan, something to the effect that if Roe v Wade were overturned, would abortion be illegal. I voted in favor of it then (and it passed), but my position on the issue has matured, and I see how silly it is to think gov't can really do much about it. Especially considering that even if it were illegal throughout the US, it is legal right across the border.

I've come to accept that when it comes to something like abortion, especially if I have no involvement at a personal level, my opinion and beliefs don't count for much. I might have an opinion that children should never be born out of wedlock, but look how much impact that has had. Tilting at windmills.

[Dr.3D]

I was asking your personal position at a state level. We had a vote about criminalizing abortion years ago in Michigan, something to the effect that if Roe v Wade were overturned, would abortion be illegal. I voted in favor of it then (and it passed), but my position on the issue has matured, and I see how silly it is to think gov't can really do much about it. Especially considering that even if it were illegal throughout the US, it is legal right across the border.

I've come to accept that when it comes to something like abortion, especially if I have no involvement at a personal level, my opinion and beliefs don't count for much. I might have an opinion that children should never be born out of wedlock, but look how much impact that has had. Tilting at windmills.

Fine and we are all allowed at least at this time to have our own opinions.
What I am afraid of is how the Federal Government is taking away our rights one at a time... soon it will be two at a time.... and then perhaps all of the rest at once.

When I look at the title of this thread, I was a little mislead by perhaps the ambiguity of it. I thought you were saying the subject of abortion had nothing to do with electing a presidential candidate. This is of course not the case, because at this time, the Federal Government does pretty much what it wants. This means if the president doesn't like something then perhaps the Federal Government will not like it either.

Saying Abortion is not a political issue is like saying people don't care if somebody has an abortion or not. This of course is not the case. Many people do care if somebody can have a legal abortion. Political is of course stemming from politics and politics is how people settle differences in how they feel about certain issues.

I think perhaps the title of this thread may have been better if is it said "Abortion is Not Necessarily a Presidential Election Issue".

While most of the candidates are biased about the issue of abortion and may affect how things were done in the Federal Government concerning this issue. Dr. Paul being pro-life, would not let his view on the issue be a part of his office as President of the United States. This is because he would not let the Federal Government dictate to the states about the issue but rather let the states decide for themselves.

If the subject of abortion came up for vote in my state, I would vote against it being legal. Let those who want to get one go to another state to do it. If the majority of people in my state voted like I did, then people would have to go out of state to get an abortion. This is only fair to the people of the state where they voted against it.

Now if one were to determine abortion was not constitutional, then the state could not make it legal anyway. The big problem is, the arguement as to when a fetus becomes a human. If it is at conception, then abortion is murder and unconstitutional. It is about the interpretation as to when human life begins.

While I am against murder, I can not stop people from murdering other people. I will however try to stop someone from murdering another person if I feel I am about to witness them attempt to do so. This is something police can not do because they are usually involved after the fact.

When Ron Paul is elected as President of the United States, the issue of abortion will become a non issue. At least at the federal level.

[0zzy]

Its been going on since around 1500 bc. There is absolutely nothing that can be done to stop it from happening. I don't mean to be crude, but its not really that complicated of a procedure. Abortion is simply a ploy politicians use to gather support. Every republican since Reagon has said they want to put a stop to it, and THEY REALIZE its not gonna happen.
I only say this b/c of a couple of posts here on how to talk to people about abortion/politics. Simple, tell them one has NOTHING to do with the other.

Murder has been going on much longer than that. Shall we just "accept" it? I don't understand your logic.

[ambiguousscion]

I know I will be fighting for it to be illegal in my state if they overturn Roe V Wade... and yes I will be open to adopting some children also.