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Starks
01-22-2008, 01:38 AM
I'm a pro-choice male and I am curious as to whether anyone else here, male or female, is as well.

sidster
01-22-2008, 01:40 AM
Undecided. I don't think this topic can be viewed in such pro or anti
manner. Then again I've been known to be wrong. Just as my ex/gf.

MayTheRonBeWithYou
01-22-2008, 01:41 AM
Pro choice.

"Pro life" is mainly a relic of religion. Funny that most "pro lifers" do not apply the same views when it comes to the death penalty.

Fields
01-22-2008, 01:41 AM
There are some of both on these forums. As for myself, Pro-Life.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 01:41 AM
Pro-Choice female for Ron Paul.

The abortion issue is dwarfed by the war issue. And the economy.

liberty_Forever
01-22-2008, 01:42 AM
Male, Pro-Let the states decide.

I have very mixed feelings on the issue. I used to be pro-Choice. . . but now I am not sure exactly what is the right thing to do, because the issue is so complex. I honestly think it should be up to local communities and states.

Starks
01-22-2008, 01:43 AM
The main reason I'm pro-choice is because of the ethical issue.

I'd rather abortions be safe, legal, and rare instead of unsafe, unregulated, and done on a whim.

smartguy911
01-22-2008, 01:43 AM
i am pro-choice

apc3161
01-22-2008, 01:43 AM
Pro Choice when the "child" is still just a bunch of clumped together cells for the first few weeks.

To me this is especially important for rape victims and mothers who won't be able to provide a decent life for a child.

But once it becomes "hazy" as to whether or not its a human (a really young fetus), I just say no.

smartguy911
01-22-2008, 01:44 AM
The main reason I'm pro-choice is because of the ethical issue.

I'd rather abortions be safe, legal, and rare instead of unsafe, unregulated, and done on a whim.

if states decide on abortion laws, females can go to different states and get it done right?

Indy Vidual
01-22-2008, 01:44 AM
I'm a pro-choice male and I am curious as to whether anyone else here, male or female, is as well.


Pro choice.

"Pro life" is mainly a relic of religion. Funny that most "pro lifers" do not apply the same views when it comes to the death penalty.

Pro-choice

Bilgefisher
01-22-2008, 01:44 AM
Pro-choice, but I think his position on that is of little consequence to me. I care about his economic policy which seems to be the cure for many of our woes.

Starks
01-22-2008, 01:45 AM
Pro Choice when the "child" is still just a bunch of clumped together cells for the first few weeks.

To me this is especially important for rape victims and mothers who won't be able to provide a decent life for a child.

But once it becomes "hazy" as to whether or not its a human (a really young fetus), I just say no.

3rd trimester abortions and partial birth abortions are pretty much already illegal.

Fields
01-22-2008, 01:45 AM
if states decide on abortion laws, females can go to different states and get it done right?

I would assume so. Unless they made some residency requirement.

Oyate
01-22-2008, 01:46 AM
I'm a pro-choice male and I am curious as to whether anyone else here, male or female, is as well.

Well I'm a pro-voice hemale and I'm curious as to whether anywhales else or in Pacific waters are bi-gender curious or at least know someone who is.

Yeah right.

Fields
01-22-2008, 01:46 AM
3rd trimester abortions and partial birth abortions are pretty much already illegal.

Not pretty much, they are. Recently the Supreme Court upheld the ban.

dannno
01-22-2008, 01:46 AM
Pro-choice

...but... i have complete respect for the pro-life position...and i'm definetely not down with the whole late term abortion thing either, unless it is to save a woman's life, which Dr. Paul says is not heard of very often at all.

my main contention is if a woman wants an abortion that badly she will get one, she attempt it herself or she will go through the black market.. I think making them available is more humane..just a personal belief...i can see how somebody could easily feel the exact opposite...

but i am ok with letting the states decide or who knows, maybe like the last 3 pro-life presidents we've had since roe vs. wade....he won't change it.....:confused:

liberty_Forever
01-22-2008, 01:47 AM
Yes, I suppose they could go to another state.

I just think political control should be in the hands of the people, locally. . . not the federal government. I am personally very torn by the morality. I guess I would officially be pro-Life, but again, I think this should be up to states and communities.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 01:47 AM
if states decide on abortion laws, females can go to different states and get it done right?

That is correct. I think that is totally fine.

I'm pro-choice. But it doesn't mean I like abortion or think it should be subsidized. I just think that it should be legal.

I also think that the focus is in the wrong place. Work on preventing unwanted pregnancies, not stopping abortion. Work on encouraging adoption, but not on forcing values on others.

RonPaulVolunteer
01-22-2008, 01:48 AM
I am absolutely pro choice. The choice of the unborn without a voice. The choice of life instead of convenience.

.

Starks
01-22-2008, 01:48 AM
if states decide on abortion laws, females can go to different states and get it done right?

Yeah, they could. It should be left up to the states, but I hope they have the sense to keep it legal.

AKBryant54
01-22-2008, 01:48 AM
Male pro-choice for the simple reason that outlawing it doesn't work, it only makes the abortion less safe for the female.

dwdollar
01-22-2008, 01:49 AM
This is the only thing I agree with Bush on.

A fetus may not be a human yet but I think it's important to error on the side of life. The respect of human life is the crux of what makes us human. If we don't have that then we are truly lost.

Fields
01-22-2008, 01:49 AM
I am absolutely pro choice. The choice of the unborn without a voice. The choice of life instead of convenience.

.

I love your prose.

damon04
01-22-2008, 01:50 AM
Male - Pro-choice - Let the states decide

RonPaulVolunteer
01-22-2008, 01:50 AM
I love your prose.

Frick, I didn't even notice... I'll have to save that :)

.

dkim68
01-22-2008, 01:50 AM
Pro Choice when the "child" is still just a bunch of clumped together cells for the first few weeks.
The way I look at that is how many generations of great men and women have we murdered? What incredible things could they have accomplished had they been allowed to live? Sadly, we'll never know.

I am Pro-Life. But even moreso I am Pro-prevention of unwanted pregnancies. We can do much better than we're doing now in that department.

Oneironaut07
01-22-2008, 01:50 AM
pro-choice...i think ron paul has a weird constituency of followers, mostly atheistic/agnostic pro-choice let us decide capitalists...if he can sway the social conservatives at the march for life he might win some more states.

Psych0t
01-22-2008, 01:51 AM
Pro-Not-Forcing-A-Child-To-Live-A-Life-In-Dysfunction. Seriously, if the mother wants to have an abortion it's for the good of both the child and the mother. The government belongs out of our beds and the womb. If you are forcing a woman to have and keep the baby, are you not putting the mother's life at risk? I say leave the women to their own bodies. Don't let this "family values" crap to be shoveled in your head with a daisy planted on top to package and make it look pretty. People need to take it upon themselves to mind their own business. If you don't agree with me, watch this condom commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbD_vRh8Ma0

(By the way, if a condom is used during sex, are you not preventing a viable egg from being fertilized? Someone should do something about this!)

LiberalDemForRP
01-22-2008, 01:51 AM
<raising hand up high>

billyjoeallen
01-22-2008, 01:51 AM
I'm pro-choice, but I'm not a one issue voter. I'm also not a woman, so even if I was a one issue voter, this wouldn't be the issue.

I see the pro-life point of view as valid, but for me, it's mostly a question of enforcement. I also think the golden rule is a wonderful idea, but totally unenforceable. Unenforceable laws bring contempt on the whole body of laws.

Also, we get more rights as we get older. At 16 you get to drive. At 18, you get to vote. At 21 you get to drink. etc.

I don't have a problem with all you pro-life folks. I see why you believe the way you do.

literatim
01-22-2008, 01:51 AM
Male pro-choice for the simple reason that outlawing it doesn't work, it only makes the abortion less safe for the female.

Outlawing the murder of an adult doesn't stop it either, should we legalize it? I mean if it is illegal, its less safe for the murderer.

Starks
01-22-2008, 01:52 AM
The only problem I see with leaving the issue up to the states is the same problem that makes the state-by-state gay marriage/civil union recognition so complicated.

If abortion laws are left up to the state, there is nothing stopping an abortion-friendly state from placing severe restrictions on out-of-staters. If a doctor can sequester me for proof of insurance, it certainly isn't beyond my imagination that may also be forced to ask for proof of residency.

Fields
01-22-2008, 01:52 AM
I'm in more of the minority than I thought. That's okay though. I still love you guys.

rfbz
01-22-2008, 01:53 AM
pro-choice here. I think abortion will always exist, it's a question of how it's done. In safe environment or in a back alleyway? I fully understand the pro-life position though, everyone in my family is pro-life. And I agree that you don't want people to be having abortions left and right like it's nothing. But I feel that if a mother and father truly feel they aren't prepared to raise a child properly, then they probably shouldn't.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 01:53 AM
The way I look at that is how many generations of great men and women have we murdered? What incredible things could they have accomplished had they been allowed to live? Sadly, we'll never know.

Well that's only if you believe that the soul of an aborted child is forever lost and never comes into existence because of the abortion.

Frankly, I believe that the soul of an aborted child simply gets reincarnated into someone else. Although my belief in this is probably radically unpopular.

LBT
01-22-2008, 01:53 AM
Pro choice is hard to define.

I think a morning after pill is probably too extreme have the government step in, even though I think people should do all they can do avoid such a practice. On the other hand, I can understand why people think it is a crime against a child to abort it at late term. As it is a crime to kill a passenger in a car.

It is such a complex area that the best solution is to have various states create laws that their own populations generally accept.

We'll never get a perfect legal system for this, especially at a federal level. Hence I am 100% for having states handle these issues.

Pro lifers still have the right to promote their beliefs, as others can form organizations to warn about the use of alcohol. We just can't expect all the world's problems to be fixed by government. The less government interfering generally the better and that is the direction Ron Paul wants to lead us.

LiberalDemForRP
01-22-2008, 01:53 AM
Well I'm a pro-voice hemale and I'm curious as to whether anywhales else or in Pacific waters are bi-gender curious or at least know someone who is.

Yeah right.

I have no idea what you just said. Come again?

literatim
01-22-2008, 01:54 AM
pro-choice here. I think abortion will always exist, it's a question of how it's done. In safe environment or in a back alleyway? I fully understand the pro-life position though, everyone in my family is pro-life. And I agree that you don't want people to be having abortions left and right like it's nothing. But I feel that if a mother and father truly feel they aren't prepared to raise a child properly, then they probably shouldn't.

All forms of murder will always exist. Why would you make the environment safe for the murderer?

liberty_Forever
01-22-2008, 01:54 AM
I am pro-Life, but as I said it should be up to the States. I respect other people's opinions on this issue though.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 01:54 AM
Pro-Not-Forcing-A-Child-To-Live-A-Life-In-Dysfunction. Seriously, if the mother wants to have an abortion it's for the good of both the child and the mother. The government belongs out of our beds and the womb. If you are forcing a woman to have and keep the baby, are you not putting the mother's life at risk? I say leave the women to their own bodies. Don't let this "family values" crap to be shoveled in your head with a daisy planted on top to package and make it look pretty. People need to take it upon themselves to mind their own business. If you don't agree with me, watch this condom commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbD_vRh8Ma0

(By the way, if a condom is used during sex, are you not preventing a viable egg from being fertilized? Someone should do something about this!)

I agree 100%.

Yom
01-22-2008, 01:55 AM
Pro-Choice here.

RonPaulVolunteer
01-22-2008, 01:55 AM
It's amazing... All you pro-choicers and your emotional, yet ridiculous arguments about it being better for the child. And you consider yourselves libertarian. Amazing.

My mother tried desperately to abort me when she was just 15, but in New Zealand it just wasn't possible at that time. I have no doubt my life has been a greater asset than a burden to society. My mother never changed her ways, had 8 kids in quick order. I though was given a chance at life and have taken it by the reigns.

Stop aborting our future Presidents, Cancer cure finders, Doctors, Pilots, etc...

.

Eric21ND
01-22-2008, 01:55 AM
The way I look at that is how many generations of great men and women have we murdered? What incredible things could they have accomplished had they been allowed to live? Sadly, we'll never know.

I am Pro-Life. But even moreso I am Pro-prevention of unwanted pregnancies. We can do much better than we're doing now in that department.

By that same logic we might have also prevented another Hitler, Stalin, insert any historic bad guy here. People are also a product of their enviroment, probably even more so than their genetics.

RonPaulVolunteer
01-22-2008, 01:56 AM
Well that's only if you believe that the soul of an aborted child is forever lost and never comes into existence because of the abortion.

Frankly, I believe that the soul of an aborted child simply gets reincarnated into someone else. Although my belief in this is probably radically unpopular.

Ah, well that's nice, lets make all laws based on your belief system....

:confused:

.

Fields
01-22-2008, 01:56 AM
It's amazing... All you pro-choicers and your emotional, yet ridiculous arguments about it being better for the child. And you consider yourselves libertarian. Amazing.

My mother tried desperately to abort me when she was just 15, but in New Zealand it just wasn't possible at that time. I have no doubt my life has been a greater asset than a burden to society. My mother never changed her ways, had 8 kids in quick order. I though was given a chance at life and have taken it by the reigns.

Stop aborting our future Presidents, Cancer cure finders, Doctors, Pilots, etc...

.

Whoa. That must make you feel really passionate knowing you could have been one of the 50 million aborted since Roe v Wade.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 01:57 AM
pro-choice here. I think abortion will always exist, it's a question of how it's done. In safe environment or in a back alleyway? I fully understand the pro-life position though, everyone in my family is pro-life. And I agree that you don't want people to be having abortions left and right like it's nothing. But I feel that if a mother and father truly feel they aren't prepared to raise a child properly, then they probably shouldn't.

Also, I wonder why the life of an unborn is so much more important to pro-lifers than the life of a grown adult. Granted, the mother isn't likely to die in most abortion cases. But her life still has meaning and value above and beyond birthing a child and the responsibilities that entails.

Unwanted children are bad for society. Adoption is a good option though, and should be encouraged but not forced upon those who have unwanted pregnancies.

LiberalDemForRP
01-22-2008, 01:57 AM
By that same logic we might have also prevented another Hitler, Stalin, insert any historic bad guy here. People are also a product of their enviroment, probably even more so then their genetics.

Well said!

AKBryant54
01-22-2008, 01:58 AM
Outlawing the murder of an adult doesn't stop it either, should we legalize it? I mean if it is illegal, its less safe for the murderer.

Point taken, but abortions are a rational decision that an adult makes that affects the rest of their life, and this decision isn't going to be swayed by the legality of it.

Murder is someone taking the life of someone else. This is different from a mother having an abortion, without the mother, the baby wouldn't even have had a life to begin with.

I'm not entirely sure of the ethical or moral problem, but outlawing it wont work, at least with murder laws people don't go around killing without fear of retribution. A functioning government prevents murder to an extent. Abortion laws have no effect, it's a social and medical problem.

Fields
01-22-2008, 01:59 AM
Also, I wonder why the life of an unborn is so much more important to pro-lifers than the life of a grown adult. Granted, the mother isn't likely to die in most abortion cases. But her life still has meaning and value above and beyond birthing a child and the responsibilities that entails.

Unwanted children are bad for society. Adoption is a good option though, and should be encouraged but not forced upon those who have unwanted pregnancies.

If birthing poses life and death for the mother. Why is she playing russian roulette having intercourse with some guy?

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 02:00 AM
It's amazing... All you pro-choicers and your emotional, yet ridiculous arguments about it being better for the child. And you consider yourselves libertarian. Amazing.

My mother tried desperately to abort me when she was just 15, but in New Zealand it just wasn't possible at that time. I have no doubt my life has been a greater asset than a burden to society. My mother never changed her ways, had 8 kids in quick order. I though was given a chance at life and have taken it by the reigns.

Stop aborting our future Presidents, Cancer cure finders, Doctors, Pilots, etc...

.

Again, you're making the presumption that if your mother aborted you then you'd have never existed in the first place. However I believe that you'd still have existed, you'd just have been born to another mother instead.

Fields
01-22-2008, 02:00 AM
Point taken, but abortions are a rational decision that an adult makes that affects the rest of their life, and this decision isn't going to be swayed by the legality of it.

Murder is someone taking the life of someone else. This is different from a mother having an abortion, without the mother, the baby wouldn't even have had a life to begin with.

I'm not entirely sure of the ethical or moral problem, but outlawing it wont work, at least with murder laws people don't go around killing without fear of retribution. A functioning government prevents murder to an extent. Abortion laws have no effect, it's a social and medical problem.

A doctor messes up and kills your unborn. That doctor can be charged with murder. Murder is murder in my opinion.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 02:02 AM
If birthing poses life and death for the mother. Why is she playing russian roulette fucking some guy?

Do you really want someone like that raising children?

MayTheRonBeWithYou
01-22-2008, 02:02 AM
Almost all "pro lifers" are religious. Their religion clouds their judgment.

tommy7154
01-22-2008, 02:02 AM
I'm pro choice I suppose though I do frown on abortions for no good reason...what kind of person does that? The type I would frown at I suppose... =)

Particularly in cases of rape and things like that though I believe in the womans choice 100%.

I'll add 100% choice as well if there's any health concerns for the mother or baby

RonPaulVolunteer
01-22-2008, 02:03 AM
Again, you're making the presumption that if your mother aborted you then you'd have never existed in the first place. However I believe that you'd still have existed, you'd just have been born to another mother instead.

Again, F Off. Seriously.

Fields
01-22-2008, 02:03 AM
Do you really want someone like that raising children?

It'll sure get her act together when she has to grow up. If you let her get the abortion it becomes an alternative birth control.

literatim
01-22-2008, 02:04 AM
Point taken, but abortions are a rational decision that an adult makes that affects the rest of their life, and this decision isn't going to be swayed by the legality of it.

Murderers always rationalize what they do unless it is in rage which the charges aren't the same as someone that had an intent to kill.


Murder is someone taking the life of someone else. This is different from a mother having an abortion, without the mother, the baby wouldn't even have had a life to begin with.

So abortion isn't taking the life of the child?

What kinda argument is "the baby wouldn't even have had a life to begin with"? You want to use the same rationality to murder your own child no matter the age?


I'm not entirely sure of the ethical or moral problem, but outlawing it wont work, at least with murder laws people don't go around killing without fear of retribution. A functioning government prevents murder to an extent. Abortion laws have no effect, it's a social and medical problem.

Outlawing murder doesn't stop people from murdering. The reason you lock up murderers is to stop them from killing anyone else. There are people that have had a dozen abortions. If they were imprisoned, they could never have gotten pregnant again and committed another murder.

Fields
01-22-2008, 02:05 AM
Almost all "pro lifers" are religious. Their religion clouds their judgment.

I definitely disagree with the former of your statements.

RonPaulVolunteer
01-22-2008, 02:06 AM
Do you really want someone like that raising children?

Congrats... In all my time here, I have never blocked another user. You, will be my first...

But don't worry, your spirit will be reincarnated into some other asshole, so I'm sure you won't be the last...

.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 02:06 AM
Almost all "pro lifers" are religious. Their religion clouds their judgment.

What bothers me is preaching abstinence and treating sex as if it is evil actually increases the number of unwanted pregnancies.

Yet the same people who deny easy access to contraceptives and adamantly oppose sex education are the ones most pissed off about abortions.

I think more focus should be spent on preventing unwanted pregnancies through proper education than on trying to muck around with the abortion issue.

LiberalDemForRP
01-22-2008, 02:06 AM
It'll sure get her act together when she has to grow up. If you let her get the abortion it becomes an alternative birth control.

Because almost all uneducated, poor mothers simply "grow up" when said child is born? I beg to differ.

tommy7154
01-22-2008, 02:06 AM
Almost all "pro lifers" are religious. Their religion clouds their judgment.

I dont know about the first statement but I do agree religion is a great cloud of judgment.

RonPaulVolunteer
01-22-2008, 02:07 AM
Because almost all uneducated, poor mothers simply "grow up" when said child is born? I beg to differ.

No, but their children, ala ME, CAN!

But I guess you'd prefer not to give me that chance.

.

Fields
01-22-2008, 02:08 AM
Dr. Ron Paul actually talked about how he became pro life in this article from on the floor in congress in 1979. http://www.l4l.org/library/congrecord.html

Check it out if you want.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 02:08 AM
Again, F Off. Seriously.

Wow, you really took that personally. Sorry that I offended you so badly. :(

LiberalDemForRP
01-22-2008, 02:08 AM
Congrats... In all my time here, I have never blocked another user. You, will be my first...

But don't worry, your spirit will be reincarnated into some other asshole, so I'm sure you won't be the last...

With all due respect, I'm not sure why you took such offense to her opinions? She was saying nothing bad about you, just stating her position.. ? There's a way to debate and be civil while doing so.

tommy7154
01-22-2008, 02:09 AM
Because almost all uneducated, poor mothers simply "grow up" when said child is born? I beg to differ.

Agreed. I know me and my wife personally grew up quick when we had ours (she was 16 I was 17) but I ALSO know many young parents who have not at all...

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 02:09 AM
Congrats... In all my time here, I have never blocked another user. You, will be my first...

But don't worry, your spirit will be reincarnated into some other asshole, so I'm sure you won't be the last...

.

I'm not sure why you took what I said as a personal attack. :confused:

Fields
01-22-2008, 02:09 AM
No, but their children, ala ME, CAN!

But I guess you'd prefer not to give me that chance.

.

Bravissimo!

RonPaulVolunteer
01-22-2008, 02:10 AM
With all due respect, I'm not sure why you took such offense to her opinions? She was saying nothing bad about you, just stating her position.. ? There's a way to debate and be civil while doing so.

?? There's nothing CIVIL about YOU wanting to murder the unborn...

.

fmontez
01-22-2008, 02:10 AM
I'm a pro-choice male and I am curious as to whether anyone else here, male or female, is as well.

Pro-physician assisted murder of fetuses? I am not in favor of killing children, sorry.

FYI I don't use the "pro-choice" or "abortion" words... it's just a cheap terminology game... if you can't call it what it is then you know you have a problem. It's called denial and deflection.

It is strange that some who claim to be pro-life supporth the death penalty, and even more strange that some that worry about a few thousand paid soldiers fighting in Iraq, many of whom want to be there, but they are not worried about the slaughter of 48 million babies. <--- these kind of folks are hypocrites, and I have zero respect or use for them.

RonPaulVolunteer
01-22-2008, 02:12 AM
Pro-physician assisted murder of fetuses? I am not in favor of killing children, sorry.

FYI I don't use the "pro-choice" or "abortion" words... it's just a cheap terminology game... if you can't call it what it is then you know you have a problem. It's called denial and deflection.

+!

literatim
01-22-2008, 02:12 AM
?? There's nothing CIVIL about YOU wanting to murder the unborn...

.

Imagine someone saying, "I would like to see all <enter group here> killed." Then replying, "I don't know why you are upset, I was just stating my opinion. Isn't there room for a civil debate?"

Fields
01-22-2008, 02:13 AM
Pro-physician assisted murder of fetuses? I am not in favor of killing children, sorry.

FYI I don't use the "pro-choice" or "abortion" words... it's just a cheap terminology game... if you can't call it what it is then you know you have a problem. It's called denial and deflection.

Good call on the term game. Gotta remember that for future bouts.

RonPaulVolunteer
01-22-2008, 02:14 AM
I'd like to see these pro-choicers watch an ultrasound of an abortion taking place as the baby backs away from the vacuum and fights for its life and see the ripped and torn fetus sucked into a jar, and see how feel then.

.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 02:15 AM
Imagine someone saying, "I would like to see all <enter group here> killed." Then replying, "I don't know why you are upset, I was just stating my opinion. Isn't there room for a civil debate?"

Nobody said that they want to see all pregnancies aborted. Anyone who actually likes abortion is sick.

But showing more compassion to a young girl who got pregnant at the wrong time than to an unborn fetus is hardly the same thing as implying that you want an entire collective group of x to get killed.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 02:18 AM
I'd like to see these pro-choicers watch an ultrasound of an abortion taking place as the baby backs away from the vacuum and fights for its life and see the ripped and torn fetus sucked into a jar, and see how feel then.

.

I feel strong distaste for abortion. That doesn't change my pro-choice opinion on the matter though.

RonPaulVolunteer
01-22-2008, 02:18 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THS2zZ4m260

.

literatim
01-22-2008, 02:19 AM
Nobody said that they want to see all pregnancies aborted.

Well, Stalin didn't want all Christian killed either, just enough to keep the population in check.


Anyone who actually likes abortion is sick.

Why do you think its sick if you don't think its human life?


But showing more compassion to a young girl who got pregnant at the wrong time than to an unborn fetus is hardly the same thing as implying that you want an entire collective group of x to get killed.

So one human life has greater value than the other? Last I checked everyone has the right to life.

LiberalDemForRP
01-22-2008, 02:20 AM
I'd like to see these pro-choicers watch an ultrasound of an abortion taking place as the baby backs away from the vacuum and fights for its life and see the ripped and torn fetus sucked into a jar, and see how feel then.

I have seen many videos of which you speak. I am not trying to downplay the action nor am I saying that I think it is right. I simply cannot, in good conscience, tell someone else what she can or cannot do with her own body.

TER
01-22-2008, 02:21 AM
I used to be pro-choice, then my wife had a miscarriage, and I became pro-life.

tommy7154
01-22-2008, 02:23 AM
The good thing about this mess of a thread is that even though we can have such different views on a subject, we're all supporting Ron Paul :)

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 02:24 AM
Well, Stalin didn't want all Christian killed either, just enough to keep the population in check.

Why do you think its sick if you don't think its human life?

So one human life has greater value than the other? Last I checked everyone has the right to life.

You're talking immorality. I agree with you that abortion is immoral.

Until a fetus is capable of sustaining life outside of the body of the mother, it is not a human being. It may be alive, and aborting it may result in its death. But it is not a human being until it is able to survive independent of its mother.

It is still wrong to abort a fetus. But prostitution is still wrong. Yet I don't think that should be illegal either. Even though I don't agree with it and believe it to be immoral.

literatim
01-22-2008, 02:24 AM
I have seen many videos of which you speak. I am not trying to downplay the action nor am I saying that I think it is right. I simply cannot, in good conscience, tell someone else what she can or cannot do with her own body.

"To conceive and then abort one's child — even by mere eviction — is to turn conception into a deadly trap for the child. It is to set her up in a vulnerable position that is virtually certain to lead to her death. Conception followed by eviction from the womb could be compared to capturing someone, placing her on one's airplane, and then shoving her out in mid-flight without a parachute. The child in the womb is like a captive; she is in the situation involuntarily, and she cannot fend for herself. A captive is not trespassing on the captor's property, by definition. (Evicting or abandoning one's child cannot be regarded as releasing her from captivity, because this does not terminate childhood inability.)"

http://www.l4l.org/library/abor-rts.html

RonPaulVolunteer
01-22-2008, 02:24 AM
I have seen many videos of which you speak. I am not trying to downplay the action nor am I saying that I think it is right. I simply cannot, in good conscience, tell someone else what she can or cannot do with her own body.

Yet you think it's ok to choose to end the life of another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCVVXbAOSko

.

Fields
01-22-2008, 02:25 AM
I used to be pro-choice, then my wife had a miscarriage, and I became pro-life.

Pro life it seems has a lot to do with personal experience as well, I think.

As Ronpaulvolunteer has had personal experience with it. I guess I should say how it has affected me personally. My ex gf was 18 and I was 19 when she got pregnant. I told her that I would go along with her and she said she wanted to keep it, which was fine. She then got hidden from me by her parents got the abortion a few weeks later. Although we were young. I as does she, come from wealthy families so I think it was absurd to have done that.

RonPaulVolunteer
01-22-2008, 02:27 AM
SO many people, all they care about is the reproductive rights, failing to understand they also have reproductive responsibilities.

Fields
01-22-2008, 02:27 AM
Yet you think it's ok to choose to end the life of another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCVVXbAOSko

.

I haven't seen these. Thanks for sharing.

tommy7154
01-22-2008, 02:28 AM
Pro life it seems has a lot to do with personal experience as well, I think.

As Ronpaulvolunteer has had personal experience with it. I guess I should say how it has affected me personally. My ex gf was 18 and I was 19 when she got pregnant. I told her that I would go along with her and she said she wanted to keep it, which was fine. She then got hidden from me by her parents got the abortion a few weeks later. Although we were young. I as does she, come from wealthy families so I think it was absurd to have done that.

Yah that's the kind of abortion I am against...I would totally frown at that. So did her parents "convince" her to have the abortion? That sucks and it's wrong imo...

Fields
01-22-2008, 02:28 AM
You're talking immorality. I agree with you that abortion is immoral.

Until a fetus is capable of sustaining life outside of the body of the mother, it is not a human being. It may be alive, and aborting it may result in its death. But it is not a human being until it is able to survive independent of its mother.

It is still wrong to abort a fetus. But prostitution is still wrong. Yet I don't think that should be illegal either. Even though I don't agree with it and believe it to be immoral.

That sustaining life argument is nonsense. Once science catches up and can sustain it from the cell onward, then does that mean they are human beings?

Fields
01-22-2008, 02:29 AM
Yah that's the kind of abortion I am against...I would totally frown at that. So did her parents "convince" her to have the abortion? That sucks and it's wrong imo...

Yeah, they hid her and were ashamed, and to this day, that ex girlfriend faults me for all the pain and suffering she has had to live with.

Mckarnin
01-22-2008, 02:30 AM
I'm a pro-choice male and I am curious as to whether anyone else here, male or female, is as well.


Pro-women, pro-children, pro-life...

I have done volunteer work with Feminists for Life (http://www.feministsforlife.org) Their motto is: "Women deserve better". They base their work on the writings of the founders of true feminism, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Pearl S. Buck, etc... They are non-religious, non-partisan, and they want to do away with the root causes of abortion by making a successful life, career and education possible for men and women who decide to keep their babies. I hate the fact that the vast majority of women who have abortions cite factors like: my boyfriend/husband/family doesn't support my pregnancy, I'll have to drop out of school, I'll lose my job or fall off my career path. If there is any such thing as a "good" reason to have an abortion those do not qualify.

Eric21ND
01-22-2008, 02:30 AM
I'm "pro-women should decide this issue" because ultimately they are the one that must carry the burden. Abortion in some form has been praciticed for hundreds, if not thousands of years and will continue to do so no matter what happens. Natural spontaneous abortion happens in nature all the time in the animal kingdom. Try working at child protective services and you'd see the reality of what horrible parents some people truly are. These are children that can actually feel the physical and emotional pain of abuse, an embryo has no such capacity.

I believe proper sex education could help tremendously in preventing unwanted pregnancies. By proper I mean education based upon scientific facts and not tainted with bias or religious sentiment, i.e. abstinence only. All too often though young people are not given the truth about the effectiveness of properly used contraception, or worse yet birth control, condoms, etc, are purposely omitted from the presentation. It is often the same people that detest abortion the loudest that also want to deny teenagers any knowledge on the subject of sex. They would rather us all live in an intellectual dark age.

LiberalDemForRP
01-22-2008, 02:30 AM
I'm pretty sure we can to and fro all day... I don't think either side is going to change their opinion within a thread. I appreciate and respect that everyone has a voice in the matter and that we can agree to disagree.

I think the OP was just trying to get a sense if he was the only one or if others in the RP supporter base were also pro-choice.

fmontez
01-22-2008, 02:33 AM
I'd like to see these pro-choicers watch an ultrasound of an abortion taking place as the baby backs away from the vacuum and fights for its life and see the ripped and torn fetus sucked into a jar, and see how feel then.

.

I hope this isn't too violent.. but, I would rather have them [pro child murders] experience a giant vacum sucking them up and mulching them... oh... perhaps that is too harsh.. I better not write that. Ignore that.

Fields
01-22-2008, 02:33 AM
Pro-women, pro-children, pro-life...

I have done volunteer work with Feminists for Life (http://www.feministsforlife.org) Their motto is: "Women deserve better". They base their work on the writings of the founders of true feminism, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Pearl S. Buck, etc... They are non-religious, non-partisan, and they want to do away with the root causes of abortion by making a successful life, career and education possible for men and women who decide to keep their babies. I hate the fact that the vast majority of women who have abortions cite factors like: my boyfriend/husband/family doesn't support my pregnancy, I'll have to drop out of school, I'll lose my job or fall off my career path. If there is any such thing as a "good" reason to have an abortion those do not qualify.

Good call on the original feminists. People don't realize that feminism movement started years and years ago.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 02:34 AM
That sustaining life argument is nonsense. Once science catches up and can sustain it from the cell onward, then does that mean they are human beings?

You misinterpreted what I said. I didn't state that it was not alive. I stated that it was not a human being. That is the difference.

Your cells are alive. Billions of them die and billions are "born" each day. Does that make your individual cells human beings with individual rights too?

I'm sorry but until a fetus becomes viable to the point that a sentient life is capable of being sustained, it is not a human being. It is alive, and aborting it is killing it. But it is not a human being, any more than your cells are human beings. The sentience is what makes the different IMO.

RonPaulVolunteer
01-22-2008, 02:35 AM
I'm "pro-women should decide this issue" because ultimately they are the one that must carry the burden.

Wow, talk about a chauvinist... Or just a playa perhaps?

When I get a girl pregnant, we will BOTH be carrying the BLESSING...

.

LiberalDemForRP
01-22-2008, 02:37 AM
Wow, talk about a chauvinist... Or just a playa perhaps?

He sounded like someone stating his opinion. Why do you feel the need to resort to name-calling? Your argument would be better served by being respectful.

Mckarnin
01-22-2008, 02:37 AM
Good call on the original feminists. People don't realize that feminism movement started years and years ago.

Quotes from our Feminist Foremothers (http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm)

Fields
01-22-2008, 02:40 AM
Quotes from our Feminist Foremothers (http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm)

Thanks for the link.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 02:41 AM
Quotes from our Feminist Foremothers (http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm)

For all the Hillary-bashing, it is refreshing to know that in under 100 years America went from not allowing women to vote to having a woman as a serious contender for president.

fmontez
01-22-2008, 02:43 AM
You misinterpreted what I said. I didn't state that it was not alive. I stated that it was not a human being. That is the difference.

Your cells are alive. Billions of them die and billions are "born" each day. Does that make your individual cells human beings with individual rights too?

I'm sorry but until a fetus becomes viable to the point that a sentient life is capable of being sustained, it is not a human being. It is alive, and aborting it is killing it. But it is not a human being, any more than your cells are human beings. The sentience is what makes the different IMO.

It's not sentience, but indivitual rights issue here, it is a seperate body, it's level of sentience is developing, not destroyed... it has human rights. Remember, the founders did not give us human rights. A person does not have to earn their life. Murder is murder, and killing babies in the womb meets the defination of murder.

People try to deflect, by talking about "womens rights" instead of the act itself... they deny the crime, and then even pat themselves on the back while telling themselves they are heros of female privacy. No better than the German soldiers that killed millions of Jews and said they were doing the work of God and Country.

yongrel
01-22-2008, 02:45 AM
Honestly, I'm whichever side I thought about most recently. I make strong arguments for both. My brain hurts.

Mckarnin
01-22-2008, 02:45 AM
For all the Hillary-bashing, it is refreshing to know that in under 100 years America went from not allowing women to vote to having a woman as a serious contender for president.

:) yes, it is

ErikBlack
01-22-2008, 02:48 AM
Pro-choice except late-term abortions

dkim68
01-22-2008, 02:52 AM
Well that's only if you believe that the soul of an aborted child is forever lost and never comes into existence because of the abortion.

Frankly, I believe that the soul of an aborted child simply gets reincarnated into someone else. Although my belief in this is probably radically unpopular.
Actually, I do believe aborted children have souls and that they live on in some sort of afterlife. But I do not believe their souls are reincarnated into another being. I saw an episode of "Unsolved Mysteries" once where an older couple had hired a psychic to communicate with their son who died during an expedition climbing Mt. Fuji. The psychic was in contact with the son but also said there was someone else who wanted to speak, a young woman who was about 21-years in age. It turns out this young woman was their daughter who the mother had lost through miscarriage 21-years prior. They had never told another living soul about that loss. So in the afterlife this woman had continued to age as if she were still alive in our world. As Wolf says: Amazing, amazing.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 02:56 AM
It's not sentience, but indivitual rights issue here, it is a seperate body, it's level of sentience is developing, not destroyed... it has human rights. Remember, the founders did not give us human rights. A person does not have to earn their life. Murder is murder, and killing babies in the womb meets the defination of murder.

People try to deflect, by talking about "womens rights" instead of the act itself... they deny the crime, and then even pat themselves on the back while telling themselves they are heros of female privacy. No better than the German soldiers that killed millions of Jews and said they were doing the work of God and Country.

Well I guess that because I believe in reincarnation I don't feel so pissed off about it.

For those who believe that being aborted or miscarried has denied the very existence of the soul meant for that body, I guess the issue is a lot stickier.

But I still think that the soul exists and just finds another body to call home for its human incarnation.

So I can see why atheists get so upset about this, but I don't know why anyone who believes in eternal life or the existence of souls gets quite so upset about it.

Again, I'm not disagreeing that abortion is wrong and immoral, I just disagree that it is entirely on par with murder.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 02:57 AM
Actually, I do believe aborted children have souls and that they live on in some sort of afterlife. But I do not believe their souls are reincarnated into another being. I saw an episode of "Unsolved Mysteries" once where an older couple had hired a psychic to communicate with their son who died during an expedition climbing Mt. Fuji. The psychic was in contact with the son but also said there was someone else who wanted to speak, a young woman who was about 21-years in age. It turns out this young woman was their daughter who the mother had lost through miscarriage 21-years prior. They had never told another living soul about that loss. So in the afterlife this woman had continued to age as if she were still alive in our world. As Wolf says: Amazing, amazing.

That is very interesting. Thanks for the post :)

Eric21ND
01-22-2008, 03:06 AM
Wow, talk about a chauvinist... Or just a playa perhaps?

I do well for myself thanks for asking :p

Since you think yourself to be so self-righteous I have no doubt you are booking a ticket to Africa as we speak and will bring back no less than 10 starving children to feed and care for. After all these are real human beings that can actually feel pain and have a fully developed central nervous system.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 03:14 AM
I do well for myself thanks for asking :p

Since you think yourself to be so self-righteous I have no doubt you are booking a ticket to Africa as we speak and will bring back no less than 10 starving children to feed and care for. After all these are real human beings that can actually feel pain and have a fully developed central nervous system.

:D well put.

People get soooooooooooo riled up about abortion. But it is not that big of an issue in comparison to WAR, POVERTY, DISEASE, etc.

I wonder how all the pro-lifers would feel if the government insisted that they adopt the babies resulting from unwanted pregnancies because abortion is outlawed.

stewie3128
01-22-2008, 04:00 AM
Pro-choice.

LandonCook
01-22-2008, 04:13 AM
Pro choice.

"Pro life" is mainly a relic of religion. Funny that most "pro lifers" do not apply the same views when it comes to the death penalty.

I'm agnostic, Pro life, and anti-death penalty

literatim
01-22-2008, 04:21 AM
I'm "pro-women should decide this issue" because ultimately they are the one that must carry the burden. Abortion in some form has been praciticed for hundreds, if not thousands of years and will continue to do so no matter what happens. Natural spontaneous abortion happens in nature all the time in the animal kingdom.

Miscarriages happen, as does all forms of death. Many people are hit by cars, doesn't mean murdering people by hitting them with cars should be legal.


Try working at child protective services and you'd see the reality of what horrible parents some people truly are. These are children that can actually feel the physical and emotional pain of abuse, an embryo has no such capacity.

Then you support the killing of children that are physically and emotionally in pain from abuse?


I believe proper sex education could help tremendously in preventing unwanted pregnancies.

'Unwanted pregnancies' aren't relevant to the topic of the fact that the human life has the right to live.


It is often the same people that detest abortion the loudest that also want to deny teenagers any knowledge on the subject of sex. They would rather us all live in an intellectual dark age.

Why? Because we know that teaching them birth control gives an a'ok to do it and we also know all forms of birth control can fail. Ask my cousin who has had 2 children from birth control failures. If you warned them that all forms of birth control can fail and that if they get pregnant, they have to keep it or spend a life time in prison, I think 'unwanted pregnancies' would reduce.


You misinterpreted what I said. I didn't state that it was not alive. I stated that it was not a human being. That is the difference.

What is it then?


Your cells are alive. Billions of them die and billions are "born" each day. Does that make your individual cells human beings with individual rights too?

I'm sorry but until a fetus becomes viable to the point that a sentient life is capable of being sustained, it is not a human being. It is alive, and aborting it is killing it. But it is not a human being, any more than your cells are human beings. The sentience is what makes the different IMO.
I think you need to read When Do Human Beings Begin? "Scientific" Myths and Scientific Facts (http://www.l4l.org/library/mythfact.html)by by Dianne N. Irving, M.A., Ph.D

Joe3113
01-22-2008, 04:52 AM
There is no such thing as Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. You cannot simplify people's position on this issue down to a little catch phrase. As a veterinary student I understand the complexity of ontogeny. It is not a matter of black and white. The Pro-Life and Pro-Choice designations are designed to cause divisiveness, as is the false left-right paradigm.

The fact is you have to look at each situation individually.

Obviously, if a women is raped, abortion is justified because there has been an incursion on the women's liberty. However, even in this situation, I think we have to accept that any case of abortion is killing a human being. The ontogenic process is one which is continuous and linear in complexity. There is no distinct point at which a something suddenly changes from a cluster of cells to a human being. I think people want to believe this is the case to justify their abortions. They are wrong. If you say an abortion is morally justifiable in any case, up to day 14, then why not day 15, and if day 15 then why not day 16 and so on. The fact is that ontogenic development is a continuous process. Any distinct point that is designated as a so-called cut-off point of morality is simply arbitrary. Life does begin at conception. Accept it.

On the other hand I think if a man and a women go for a roll in the hay because they got drunk at a party, I don't think abortion is justified in that situation. Also keep in mind that I think the newly created human being is the responsibility of both the male and female who participated in the act. The question is then, of course, whether legislation should be used to protect the human being inside the women. Personally I don't think creating a law that makes performing abortions illegal, is going to help the situation. If a women does not want the baby then there is a humane issue for that baby, not only during ontogeny (if the women tries to peform abort the baby by non-conventional means), but following birth.

It certainly is a tough issue. I think the philosophy of small government and individual responsibility will greatly reduce the number of abortions that occur. People have become reliant on government to tell them what is right and wrong, therefore they have lost their sense of self-responsibility. I think if responsibility returned to the individual in other areas, then it is more likely people will take more responsibility in their sexual behaviour. They will be more caring and concerned and so abortions will naturally reduce.

On the other hand, if you make abortions legal in a welafare-warfare state, you end up with an awful sitatuation of people not taking reponsibility, and rather thinking abortions are fine because the goverment said so and never doing your their research.

Warrior_of_Freedom
01-22-2008, 05:57 AM
I think ripping fetuses out of a woman is inhumane. Sex is for reproduction. You don't have sex then kill a undeveloped child because you didn't mean to create a life while doing an act which creates it.

On the other hand I sympathize with it because of population control.

Truth Warrior
01-22-2008, 06:06 AM
"Pro-choice" on taxes and spending. :)

StateofTrance
01-22-2008, 06:11 AM
Pro-woman's decision(s)

DAFTEK
01-22-2008, 06:16 AM
Me and my wife are Pro-Choice and we are for Ron Paul for President!

Truth Warrior
01-22-2008, 06:31 AM
PRO ........... taking personal responsibilty and accountability on PREVENTING unwanted pregnancies! Turning a problem into a non-problem. :)

Fields
01-22-2008, 06:44 AM
There is no such thing as Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. You cannot simplify people's position on this issue down to a little catch phrase. As a veterinary student I understand the complexity of ontogeny. It is not a matter of black and white. The Pro-Life and Pro-Choice designations are designed to cause divisiveness, as is the false left-right paradigm.

The fact is you have to look at each situation individually.

Obviously, if a women is raped, abortion is justified because there has been an incursion on the women's liberty. However, even in this situation, I think we have to accept that any case of abortion is killing a human being. The ontogenic process is one which is continuous and linear in complexity. There is no distinct point at which a something suddenly changes from a cluster of cells to a human being. I think people want to believe this is the case to justify their abortions. They are wrong. If you say an abortion is morally justifiable in any case, up to day 14, then why not day 15, and if day 15 then why not day 16 and so on. The fact is that ontogenic development is a continuous process. Any distinct point that is designated as a so-called cut-off point of morality is simply arbitrary. Life does begin at conception. Accept it.

On the other hand I think if a man and a women go for a roll in the hay because they got drunk at a party, I don't think abortion is justified in that situation. Also keep in mind that I think the newly created human being is the responsibility of both the male and female who participated in the act. The question is then, of course, whether legislation should be used to protect the human being inside the women. Personally I don't think creating a law that makes performing abortions illegal, is going to help the situation. If a women does not want the baby then there is a humane issue for that baby, not only during ontogeny (if the women tries to peform abort the baby by non-conventional means), but following birth.

It certainly is a tough issue. I think the philosophy of small government and individual responsibility will greatly reduce the number of abortions that occur. People have become reliant on government to tell them what is right and wrong, therefore they have lost their sense of self-responsibility. I think if responsibility returned to the individual in other areas, then it is more likely people will take more responsibility in their sexual behaviour. They will be more caring and concerned and so abortions will naturally reduce.

On the other hand, if you make abortions legal in a welafare-warfare state, you end up with an awful sitatuation of people not taking reponsibility, and rather thinking abortions are fine because the goverment said so and never doing your their research.

I really appreciate all the thought that went into your post. Thanks.

Fields
01-22-2008, 06:44 AM
PRO ........... taking personal responsibilty and accountability on PREVENTING unwanted pregnancies! Turning a problem into a non-problem. :)

Touche.

tamor
01-22-2008, 06:55 AM
pro-choice

familydog
01-22-2008, 06:56 AM
Anti-abortion.

Fields
01-22-2008, 07:03 AM
Anti-abortion.

But your the family dog.... Dogs don't talk....

OKRonPaul
01-22-2008, 07:03 AM
The main reason I'm pro-choice is because of the ethical issue.

I'd rather abortions be safe, legal, and rare instead of unsafe, unregulated, and done on a whim.

+2 my wife and I feel the same.

bucfish
01-22-2008, 07:04 AM
This is clearly not an issue for the Federal government to decide and subsidize which they do under ROE vs. Wade. This should be a patient doctor decision not a governmental one.

kaleidoscope eyes
01-22-2008, 08:01 AM
The main reason I'm pro-choice is because of the ethical issue.

I'd rather abortions be safe, legal, and rare instead of unsafe, unregulated, and done on a whim.
ditto that

allyinoh
01-22-2008, 08:02 AM
I'm pro-keep your legs shut if you're not ready to accept what comes along with it.

HollyforRP
01-22-2008, 08:14 AM
I am for real choice, not coercion.

I've seen very small towns that preach abstinance only programs and have seen a 14 year old working on her second child.

Truth Warrior
01-22-2008, 08:18 AM
Sex is for adults ........ not children.<IMHO>

JS4Pat
01-22-2008, 08:18 AM
"Pro life" is mainly a relic of religion. Funny that most "pro lifers" do not apply the same views when it comes to the death penalty.
It is also a "relic" of those who believe in the principle that government does have the responsibility to protect everyone's right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness at ALL STAGES OF OUR EXISTENCE. (Conception until death)

BTW - I am a life long Pro-Lifer on the issue of abortion and I have always OPPOSED the death penalty as well as "pre-emptive" war.

brandon
01-22-2008, 08:30 AM
pro-choice

You can't stop abortions. Outlawing abortions would be about as effective as outlawing drugs.

Tdcci
01-22-2008, 08:36 AM
Atheist, Pro-life (in the original sense of the word) and anti death penalty. My judgement is not "clouded by religion", none of the pro-choice arguments have convinced me yet, many of them derive from modern feminism, the belief that a woman is more valuable and should have more freedoms than a man, or emotional, "She is poor and can't afford a child!". If your child had cancer and you couldn't afford treatment would you kill him also? It's purely selfish. Some "pro-choice" arguments in the thread...

"I don't want to tell a woman what to do with her body": I don't want to tell a woman what to do with her house either, but will I let her murder someone in her house without consequence? Absolutely not.

"Abortions are safer if they are legalized": So is rape or murder, but I don't value the life of a mother over her child's.

Tdcci
01-22-2008, 08:37 AM
pro-choice

You can't stop abortions. Outlawing abortions would be about as effective as outlawing drugs.

The difference is when you when you use [most] recreational drugs, you are not infringing on the rights of another individual.

Greenskin
01-22-2008, 09:29 AM
non-religious, anti-death penalty, pro-life as well.

If someone doesn't want a child, to the point they would rather kill the baby rather than raise it, then they shouldn't be having sex (or use birth control and condoms)

painter4Ron Paul
01-22-2008, 09:32 AM
Pro-choice here.

ShowMeLiberty
01-22-2008, 09:36 AM
Female, non-religious, anti-death penalty, pro-life.

Actually, I am 100% in agreement with Dr. Paul on the Life issues. I'm personally pro-life but don't believe the Federal Gov't or I have the right to enforce that view on anyone else. Maybe that makes me poticially pro-choice?

I oppose the death penalty because the "justice" system makes mistakes and sometimes innocent people get convicted. You can't take back a death sentence after it's been carried out. Also opposed because it is not applied fairly - it's a racist penalty in that far more minorities get death sentences than whites.

JS4Pat
01-22-2008, 10:27 AM
pro-choice

You can't stop abortions. Outlawing abortions would be about as effective as outlawing drugs.

You can't stop murder.

Outlawing murder would be about as effective as outlawing rape. :rolleyes:

loupeznik
01-22-2008, 10:38 AM
Atheist, Pro-life (in the original sense of the word) and anti death penalty. My judgement is not "clouded by religion", none of the pro-choice arguments have convinced me yet, many of them derive from modern feminism, the belief that a woman is more valuable and should have more freedoms than a man, or emotional, "She is poor and can't afford a child!". If your child had cancer and you couldn't afford treatment would you kill him also? It's purely selfish. Some "pro-choice" arguments in the thread...

"I don't want to tell a woman what to do with her body": I don't want to tell a woman what to do with her house either, but will I let her murder someone in her house without consequence? Absolutely not.

"Abortions are safer if they are legalized": So is rape or murder, but I don't value the life of a mother over her child's.

I am also an Atheist here. I also believe that a woman should not murder someone in her house without consequence. She should definitely be able to cast them out of her house at her will.

I am of coarse pro-choice.

jumpyg1258
01-22-2008, 10:39 AM
Im pro choice up until the last trimester.

Mckarnin
01-22-2008, 10:54 AM
I'm pro-keep your legs shut if you're not ready to accept what comes along with it.

:)

Mckarnin
01-22-2008, 10:58 AM
I think that this is a very interesting issue and will watch it. This is an interesting predicament since the Constitution upholds certain rights for individuals. I think er need to seriously consider whether an unborn child constitutes an "individual". If that is the case do all Constitutional rights of the child need to be protected?I would say yes.

VoluntaryMan
01-22-2008, 11:17 AM
Whose choice? There is NO question of "when life begins." Any scientist knows the difference between a living and a dead organism, as should any intelligent person. It ain't rocket science; it's Biology 101...pretty simple, really. The serious question is "when do RIGHTS begin?" Do we determine that a life has no rights because of its extreme state of helplessness, and hopeless dependence upon its mother? Or, do we simply rule in favor of one over the other, when those rights come into conflict? Does the mother's right to life supercede the child's, when the mother's life cannot be saved without taking positive action to end the child's. Where is the line? Is there a line?

Should the child's right be deemed inadequate to survive the conflict presented by an untimely or inconvenient pregnancy? If so, what happens when technology advances to the point (as it surely will) that a child can be successfully and routinely transplanted from its mother to a willing surrogate, at even the very first stages of pregnancy, with significantly less trauma to the mother's body than the current methods of abortion? Then, the assertion of a mother's right to terminate her pregnancy will no longer necessitate the termination of the life of her child.

Anyone who values individual rights, and the unalienable right to life, should be careful about treating these questions too lightly.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 01:41 PM
I am for real choice, not coercion.

I've seen very small towns that preach abstinance only programs and have seen a 14 year old working on her second child.

I agree 100%. Sex education is extremely important. Just telling teens that pre-marital sex is a sin and not going into sufficient detail or offering a choice on the matter is bad.


pro-choice

You can't stop abortions. Outlawing abortions would be about as effective as outlawing drugs.

I agree completely.

The drugs and sex education items are very similar in nature. Kids need to be educated so they can make informed decisions.

Telling them something is outright wrong and then not bothering to try to win them over with rational debate is just going to encourage them to rebel. Teens always rebel against their parents.

These subjects should be approached through education and persuasion and not through guilt-tripping, saying it is just wrong, and telling them they can't do it.

It is better to lay out all the cards on the table, tell your kids from a rational point of view why you feel the way you do, and then give them their own freedom of choice, armed with the knowledge they need to protect themselves from the inherent dangers.

tarabyte
01-22-2008, 01:43 PM
non-religious, anti-death penalty, pro-life as well.

If someone doesn't want a child, to the point they would rather kill the baby rather than raise it, then they shouldn't be having sex (or use birth control and condoms)

If abstinence is shoved down thees kids throats, they can often have no idea about birth control or condoms. Improper education causes more unwanted pregnancies.

Jae0
01-22-2008, 02:05 PM
As i said in the other thread:

Im conflicted about abortion.
Personally, in my heart I think its absolutely wrong.
But, the other side of me that is my brain feels that its not my place to try to force my morals on other people. If a woman wants to get an abortion its her decision and she has to live with it for the rest of her life.

I guess in the end i'm fine with it being legal. As long as the government doesnt help fund it and the mothers have to see the ultrasound and hear the heartbeat before its done.

Truth Warrior
01-22-2008, 02:10 PM
Fortunately, Ron "gets it".<IMHO>

Theocrat
01-22-2008, 02:12 PM
For all of you "pro-choice" advocates on this thread, I highly recommend that you read this commentary (http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5080&printer_friendly=1), where Greg convincingly describes how the issue of abortion is truly no different than the issue of slavery. The issue to be considered is the issue of human rights.

matterweisen
01-22-2008, 02:36 PM
im pro-choice, to a point. I believe you should get one, and thats it. but i also believe abortion is a personal local issue and should not be regulated by the federal government.

GHoeberX
01-22-2008, 02:39 PM
I'm a pro-choice male and I am curious as to whether anyone else here, male or female, is as well.

I'm Pro-let-the-states-decide-everything-first and during a state election I'd be pro-choice.

Marceline88
01-22-2008, 02:56 PM
I am pro-personal responsibility and not having sex unless your prepared to deter unwanted pregnancies or prepared to be a parent, yet I am also pro-not letting the government decide what I can and can't do with my own body, however I am also pro-"life begins at conception" and pro-it's a baby, a human and it has it's own rights and for God's sake please consider that before using abortion as contraception. I am also pro-allowing rape and incest victims to terminate their pregnancies if they desire to.

I am also anti-assholes who kill doctors and burn clinics and show graphic pictures of aborted fetuses to the public, my daughter doesn't need to see that. I am also anti-late term abortion unless the mother's life is in the balance.

I am.......quite sure it is not a black and white, simple or FEDERAL issue.

Jae0
01-22-2008, 03:04 PM
"You stay out of my vagina and i'll stay out of yours"

tarabyte
01-23-2008, 03:20 PM
I am pro-personal responsibility and not having sex unless your prepared to deter unwanted pregnancies or prepared to be a parent, yet I am also pro-not letting the government decide what I can and can't do with my own body, however I am also pro-"life begins at conception" and pro-it's a baby, a human and it has it's own rights and for God's sake please consider that before using abortion as contraception. I am also pro-allowing rape and incest victims to terminate their pregnancies if they desire to.

I am also anti-assholes who kill doctors and burn clinics and show graphic pictures of aborted fetuses to the public, my daughter doesn't need to see that. I am also anti-late term abortion unless the mother's life is in the balance.

I am.......quite sure it is not a black and white, simple or FEDERAL issue.

I pretty much agree with you on your stances :)

Although I'm not sure if life really begins at conception or not.

But I do agree completely with your approach on the whole abortion issue, and I wish everyone took the same approach as you do.

roversaurus
01-23-2008, 03:26 PM
Mostly pro life.

I really think returning the issue to the states is the best way to solve
the controversial issue.

And I really appreciate those who disagree setting the issue aside for
more important issues.
So, to the Democrats, I say - If Ron Paul is not on the ballot you guys just
tell me who you want me to support and I'll be there for you too.

Janet0116
01-23-2008, 03:33 PM
pro-choice female here

rp08orbust
01-23-2008, 03:44 PM
I think the legality of abortion should be decided at the county level. I would vote "pro-life" at the county level unless there was evidence that lots of poor women in the county were getting sick or dieing from getting them illegally.

JMann
01-23-2008, 03:44 PM
I am pro-choice but believe Roe v. Wade is unconstitutional.

angelatc
01-23-2008, 03:45 PM
What bothers me is preaching abstinence and treating sex as if it is evil actually increases the number of unwanted pregnancies.

Yet the same people who deny easy access to contraceptives and adamantly oppose sex education are the ones most pissed off about abortions.


Heck, they get pissed off about pregnancies in general.

With a notable exception in Mike Huckabee, people were merciless when the younger Spears girl announced she was pregnant. He was the only person gentle enough to say that he was glad she opted to give birth to her child. Everybody else insinuated she was a cheap whore.

She's a 16 year old kid, who made a mistake. The "compassion" I saw for her makes it clear that we're simply not ready or willing to love all the children.

A good many of us seem far more intent on using pregnancy as a penance for women who have sex.

angelatc
01-23-2008, 03:48 PM
I'd like to see these pro-choicers watch an ultrasound of an abortion taking place as the baby backs away from the vacuum and fights for its life and see the ripped and torn fetus sucked into a jar, and see how feel then.

.

What makes you think we haven't? I spent some time in the pro-life camp, then decided that I was wrong.

angelatc
01-23-2008, 03:50 PM
SO many people, all they care about is the reproductive rights, failing to understand they also have reproductive responsibilities.

But you don't have the right to define those responsibilities.

amy31416
01-23-2008, 03:55 PM
Pro-choice as a practicality, we don't need a return to back-alley abortions.

Pro-life personally. I don't push my views on anyone else.

I do believe that leaving it up to the states is the best idea I've ever heard on the issue.

nbhadja
01-23-2008, 04:07 PM
Edit- nevermind.
Idk didn't research enough.

nbhadja
01-23-2008, 04:17 PM
Question- When is the earliest an abortion can be performed and is the babies heart beating, brain formed and functional at that time?

JMann
01-23-2008, 04:33 PM
" Originally Posted by RonPaulVolunteer View Post
I'd like to see these pro-choicers watch an ultrasound of an abortion taking place as the baby backs away from the vacuum and fights for its life and see the ripped and torn fetus sucked into a jar, and see how feel then."

Been there done that and as awful as it is it isn't nearly as bad as seeing a child grow up in an unwanted home with parents that can't afford to feed them and that either go into a foster environment to be abused and molested by foster parents in some cases. Children that are beat and not given an opportunity to escape.

Neither situation is good. Roe v. Wade should be overturned because there is no right to kill (which is what abortion is) but if the people decide through there elected representatives and they pass a law making it ok to kill unborn babies there is no reason it shouldn't be legal.

zr4
01-23-2008, 04:54 PM
pro-life male.

HOLLYWOOD
01-23-2008, 05:08 PM
Yes... Pro Choice!

I Choose Not To Pay Anymore Taxes Until I Receive Representation! Competent & Accountable, & Responsible!!!

Brian4Liberty
01-23-2008, 05:27 PM
I think the whole abortion debate is a red-herring.

The establishment (government/corporate/military/media complex) wants everyone to be distracted by it and to get emotional about it so that you will ignore more important issues.

They can put up their sock-puppet candidates and say "this one is for and this one is against abortion, make your choice".

MBA2008
01-23-2008, 05:36 PM
not nearly enough time.

Oh well. I'll just respond to the OP. (and a couple of others, I guess.)

He says, "The main reason I'm pro-choice is because of the ethical issue.

I'd rather abortions be safe, legal, and rare instead of unsafe, unregulated, and done on a whim."

So, let's break it down:

"The ethical issue" is your MAIN reason; what are your other reasons?

And what is THE ethical issue? Is there only one ethical issue associated with abortion? Your statement implies (perhaps unintentionally) that there is only one ethical issue, and you are on the right side of it. It follows that those who are "pro-life" are not on the right side of "the ethical issue."

I'd be willing to wager that there are quite a few ethical issues related to abortion, and choosing a side (there are more than two) probably requires being on the right side of some ethical issues and on the wrong side of others.

So, you have simply chosen one issue with respect to abortion that you perceive is important. That's fine, just realize that you're only looking at part of the picture; a rather small part of the picture.

Also, you state that you want abortions to be safe, legal, and rare. Do you want executions to be safe, legal, and rare? How about making unwanted pregnancies safe, legal, and rare? And, wouldn't abortions no less rare if they are safe and legal, than if they are unsafe and illegal. It seems to me that if I were a women facing an unwanted pregnancy, I would be much more inclined to have an abortion if it were safe and legal, than if it were unsafe and illegal. For certain, I would be much less inclined to have an abortion "on a whim" if it were unsafe and illegal. In fact, the chances of me having me having an abortion on a whim are much greater if it is safe and legal.

I suspect what you are really saying is that you want abortions to be safe and legal, and if they happen to be rare, so much the better, but safe and legal are the most important things.

I've got enough to say about this to fill a trilogy, but suffice it to say, I view that "clump of cells" (from conception on) with its own DNA as an individual human being with the same rights as any other human being. It's right to life is no greater or less than the right to life of any other human being, including its mother. Furthermore, the right of any human being's right to LIFE supersedes another's right to liberty, and pursuit of happiness, should they conflict.

I don't profess to know for certain where life begins, but when it comes to a human being, I will always err on the side of life, just as I would hope that others would do the same for me if there were a question.

And for the smart guys (and gals) who want to talk about cells (sperm, eggs, and otherwise), leave those cells to themselves and see if they develop into a new human being. When that happens get back to me, and I'll review my position.

Kasira
01-23-2008, 05:48 PM
Female, atheist, pro-choice, pro-birth control, pro-sex ed. I'd like to live in a country where all pregnancies are wanted and celebrated, but that's not going to happen anytime soon, so we have to work with what we have.

Up until the fetus can survive outside the mother's body, it's not a person. That's why we have words like "fetus" and "zygote". It sounds better than "clump of cells smaller than the end of the fingernail on my pinkie finger". Because, for the first few months, that's all it is. And if it's unwanted, the best description would probably be parasite.

Pregnancy is a huge drain on a woman's body, even if it is a healthy pregnancy. I've seen enough friends go through their teenage pregnancies (yes, multiple) and come out looking 40 instead of 18. It's easy enough to say, "Oh, she's a skank, she should have kept her legs shut," but let's face it - NO ONE IS GOING TO STOP HAVING SEX.

So, we need to educate kids, so they're not going off half-cocked (har har) without a clue as to how to protect themselves. We should all, pro-choice and pro-life, be donating to low-cost birth control providers. If you really want to prevent abortions, that's the way to do it. You're not going to scare a bunch of teenagers who think they're invincible into not having sex. But you can keep them safe(r).

/rant off
//I was tempted to just say, "pro-abortion" and see what that got me. :p

nike
01-23-2008, 05:56 PM
Proud pro choice female :)

It's my body, I'll decide what health care I will elect for myself.

steve254
01-23-2008, 06:57 PM
I look at the issue on the basis of property rights.

The female owns her own body.

A parasitic fetus lives within her.

It is her choice whether to nurture the parasite

or to expel it.

Yes, this is crude analogy. But does the parasite have any property rights claim to the lifeblood of the mother?

Let the mother decide.

That is pro choice.

Once the parasite has been born, it is now a fully endowed person, with its own property rights. Should the mother decide to no longer support the parasite, she has many options.

BTW, I am a parent.

MayTheRonBeWithYou
01-23-2008, 07:05 PM
Female, atheist, pro-choice, pro-birth control, pro-sex ed.

My kind of woman. :D

EvilEngineer
01-23-2008, 07:24 PM
I'd say pro-choice, but it really doesn't encompass what I really feel. I'm more pro-death... for executions and for expanding it, support abortions up to age 18, and after 65.

Hence why I'm evil.

tarabyte
01-25-2008, 12:42 AM
My kind of woman. :D

Mine too ;)

Oh crap, I probably just pissed off all the homophobes. :p

ValidusCustodiae
01-25-2008, 01:27 AM
im for letting people choose.. i should stop there tho :-X

Hope
01-25-2008, 01:31 AM
I think the whole abortion debate is a red-herring.

The establishment (government/corporate/military/media complex) wants everyone to be distracted by it and to get emotional about it so that you will ignore more important issues.

They can put up their sock-puppet candidates and say "this one is for and this one is against abortion, make your choice".

QFT.

thuja
01-25-2008, 01:44 AM
pro choice, but this abortion issue always comes up to befuddle voters.

For Paul In Arkansas
01-25-2008, 01:48 AM
Pro-life here.. its foundational to our country.

Why do they say it is murder if you kill a child in the womb of a woman, but then say it isn't a life until birth. Rather contradictory I think eh?

Is a life only a life if a woman wants it? So... she can kill it and no one else can.

So the value of a life is subjective... not objective. It is only valuable if someone, namely if its mother loves it and wants it.

Uhhh....

Malakai0
01-25-2008, 01:51 AM
Was pretty strongly pro choice, but to be honest I still have issues with it. Call me undecided.

I worked with a 19 year old girl that had 3 abortions cause 'her man doesnt like condoms'. Pretty f'ed up IMO =)

newmedia4ron
01-25-2008, 02:24 AM
Male, Pro-Let the states decide.

I have very mixed feelings on the issue. I used to be pro-Choice. . . but now I am not sure exactly what is the right thing to do, because the issue is so complex. I honestly think it should be up to local communities and states.

same here

DFF
01-25-2008, 02:29 AM
I'm 100% Pro-Choice.

The opposed to 3rd trimester abortions though.

DirtMcGirt
01-25-2008, 02:31 AM
it just depends when you believe life begins...

merrimac
01-25-2008, 09:50 AM
I'm pro-life but I would consider becoming pro-choice except for one thing. This is a topic I've been thinking about for years and I eventually arrived at this conclusion:

Let me start off by saying that I would classify myself as an agnostic leaning towards atheist so my argument against abortion doesn't come from religion but rather the right to "life" as espoused by the Declaration of Independence. It seems to me that the whole abortion debate hinges upon when human life actually begins. If a clump of cells is not human life, then the woman has every right to do what she wants with her body (I don't think anyone on here will disagree). But if the clump of cells IS human life, then that's a totally different story.

So pro-lifers will claim it is and pro-choicers will claim that it's ridiculous to think of a clump of cells as human life. And I would agree with the pro-choicers except for one thing: if it's not human, then when exactly does it become human? Their whole argument depends on there being some exact moment after conception that they can specifically point to where it, for lack of a better word, graduates from being a fetus to a human.

I don't believe that declaring this exact moment when human life begins is something that any of us can have the power to do. Though I don't believe it, I can take a page out of the pro-choicers' book and argue that a living breathing one year old baby is not a human: They can't talk. They can't walk. They can't think intelligently. There's almost nothing there yet that distinguishes them from the animals. And without the aid of the mother and father it would die, so how can it be human?

But OF COURSE a one year old baby is human. OF COURSE a third trimester fetus is human. And while I can understand their point of view that a clump of cells is not human, the idea of declaring when human life begins is something that I absolutely detest. So I won't do it. And I can't see how anyone else could do it. That's why I believe that the vast majority of abortions are immoral.

RonPaulFTFW
01-25-2008, 09:58 AM
I'm very pro-choice.
As a civilized nation abortion should always be an option.

If not we will have barbarism and self-inflicted abortions. I also see the banning of abortion as the ultimate state control over a womans body, almost as disgusting as the death penalty.

Being A male I feel that all women should have options about what to do.

I respect Paul for being the only Republican who is against the waste of life in War and in abortion, and that he brings about his ideas from a clear legal and logical stand on the issue. He truly is pro-life in a non hypocritical way.

Kade
01-25-2008, 10:07 AM
Very pro-choice. I've clarified this position on other threads, to the chagrin and ranting and raving of other members. I do not believe that tax money should go to support abortions, a point I only recently conceded. I'm thankful to the RPF for that much in the quest to understand and gain knowledge. Their are people who really believe blastocysts are human beings. I think those people should not have to support the procedure with their money.

EvilEngineer
01-25-2008, 10:12 AM
Was pretty strongly pro choice, but to be honest I still have issues with it. Call me undecided.

I worked with a 19 year old girl that had 3 abortions cause 'her man doesnt like condoms'. Pretty f'ed up IMO =)

Yeah... at this point, I say... abort the parents.

allyinoh
01-25-2008, 07:23 PM
Pro-choice as a practicality, we don't need a return to back-alley abortions.

Pro-life personally. I don't push my views on anyone else.

I do believe that leaving it up to the states is the best idea I've ever heard on the issue.

If I can here, please do some research on "back alley" abortions. You'll find that this is a severe over exaggeration.

I think you are either pro-life or pro-choice, I don't think there's middle ground. It's how the government deals with it that is different, IMO.

I am pro-life but I think it should be decided on a state level.

allyinoh
01-25-2008, 07:24 PM
What ever happened to personal responsibility? The thing Ron Paul talks about all the time? With freedom comes responsibility. You have the freedom to have intercourse, but you should accept the responsibility that comes along with it, among other things.

It's about prevention. People know how to prevent pregnancies, but they don't.

vote4ronpauleeze
01-25-2008, 08:34 PM
1. Forcing a pregnancy on someone who doesn't want a child is an absolutely terrible idea and for many reasons. One being that the pregnant woman, who will probably give up the child, has no incentive to take care of her body while pregnant. Another being, if the mother doesn't give up the child (due to pressure), the child will probably have a very poor growing up environment.

2. There will be a huge market for back-alley abortions. **Hint: How has the war on drugs worked? How effective was prohibition?*** These blackmarket abortions will be very dangerous and could cause severe harm to the pregnant woman.

3. A cluster of cells, in my opinion, doesn't equal life. It could be life, it might be a miscarriage...or maybe someone just got a little too excited after watching some videos on the internet.

4. Pregnancy should never be forced and should never be treated as a "punishment". Let's face it, every time someone has sex, they're not saying, "Wow, I'd really like to have a child." Our species has survived due to sexual urges. It is completely normal to have them. But let's also let the parents decide when they're emotionally and financially ready to handle another member to their family. You're not "evil" for having sex, and foreplay is not "preparing for the future"...

That was a long enough response... Peace

Macon, GA
01-25-2008, 08:38 PM
Yes..... please, let's don't consider a new human zygote life... That might cause us to actually be responsible for our actions.

Give me a break.

There is no way you can scientifically prove that a "cluster of cells" (as you put it) is not a human baby.

Two sets of DNA, a mother's and a child's. Two different identities, both deserving of protection.

Grow up irresponsible America. If you sleep around, there may be a baby as a result. If you can't provide for it, put it up for adoption. Please don't KILL it.

vote4ronpauleeze
01-25-2008, 08:39 PM
Yes..... please, let's don't consider a new human zygote life... That might cause us to actually be responsible for our actions.

Give me a break.

There is no way you can scientifically prove that a "cluster of cells" (as you put it) is not a human baby.

Two sets of DNA, a mother's and a child's. Two different identities, both deserving of protection.

Grow up irresponsible America. If you sleep around, there may be a baby as a result. If you can't provide for it, put it up for adoption. Please don't KILL it.
Yep, having sex (human nature) is wrong and we all should suffer the "consequences" of bringing another life into this world when we're not ready.

Let's have a child be a punishment, good idea. I bet that kid will be a winner.

Elliott
01-25-2008, 09:22 PM
I'm a pro-choice male and I am curious as to whether anyone else here, male or female, is as well.

I don't have strong feelings on the issue either way. I wouldn't personally want a child of mine aborted. But if a welfare receiving crack-whore with four kids gets pregnant for the fifth time, it might not be a bad option to have on the table.

DAFTEK
01-25-2008, 09:24 PM
Pro-Choice here, my wife is also a Pro-Choice Paulite :D

Caravello
01-25-2008, 09:35 PM
I'm not pro choice on the belief that it is not a woman's right to kill a baby inside of her. I think the baby should be guaranteed protection. I realize the baby is living within the woman, but so what? It has to live somewhere and grow. I never understood the logic here that it is a woman's body for her to choose what to do. And that is not even true in the basic ways; she can't legally put heroin into her body, she can't legally kill herself, etc.

To me it's just pandering to the woman's vote to say it is her right.

Kilrain
01-25-2008, 09:41 PM
I'm pretty much pro-choice by default. Living in Sweden and being pro-life is just not feasible. That being said, I do feel that it shouldn't just be up to the woman. It takes two to tango and I think the would-be father should have some say in the matter.

Expatriate
01-26-2008, 01:40 AM
Pro-Life male who would like the states to decide on this issue.

I think both sides need to consider the other's standpoint a little more and make compromises. Realize how much the issue means to the person that you disagree with. One side sees it as a mother's Constitutional right to privacy, and the other side sees it as murder. Wouldn't it be better not to force the whole country to choose a side here?

clouds
01-26-2008, 01:47 AM
Isn't calling it pro-life and pro-choice a bit misleading/using lobbyist language? I have a feeling like this helps confuse the issue sometimes.

gaazn
01-26-2008, 02:37 AM
Funny that most "pro lifers" do not apply the same views when it comes to the death penalty.


those would be the neocons and their christian right allies. catholics are for neither, and was appalled when saddam was killed.

John_Haigh
01-26-2008, 02:40 AM
This is a really tough issue.

We have to be careful not to fall into the trap of arguing by extrapolation and end up debating "How many angels can dance on a pin head."

Late term abortions of a viable foetus are clearly very close to murder. Very early abortions are equally clearly not murder in my opinion.

Where to draw the line? It takes the wisdom of Solomon and I just don't have that.

By the way, there is a movie that tackles this subject very beautifully. It's called Juno and I recommend watching it if you need 90 minutes to relax and recharge from your Ron Paul campaigning efforts.

SeekLiberty
01-26-2008, 03:32 AM
I'm Pro Do-What's-Right according to each individual situation.

- SL

silence is betrayal
01-26-2008, 03:55 AM
I'm Pro Do-What's-Right according to each individual situation.

- SL

I agree with this.

ThreeFireflies
01-26-2008, 04:02 AM
Let's put it this way. What do you think of dismembering a baby who can feel everything you do, then puncturing his skull and sucking his brains out? If he'd been, say, one week older, you'd have gone to prison for life for doing exactly the same thing. People are so easily led that half of them don't see anything bizarre in that situation. They just follow the rules, just follow the rules.

ThreeFireflies
01-26-2008, 04:14 AM
Let's put it this way. What do you think of dismembering a baby who can feel everything you do, then puncturing his skull and sucking his brains out? If he'd been, say, one week older, you'd have gone to prison for life for doing exactly the same thing. People are so easily led that half of them don't see anything bizarre in that situation. They just follow the rules, just follow the rules.

johngr
01-26-2008, 04:21 AM
I think abortions should be mandatory.

hypnagogue
01-26-2008, 04:40 AM
I support abortion up the point where brain activity begins.

Gustogus
01-26-2008, 05:31 AM
I'd like to see these pro-choicers watch an ultrasound of an abortion taking place as the baby backs away from the vacuum and fights for its life and see the ripped and torn fetus sucked into a jar, and see how feel then.

.

3rd trimester abortions are already illegal. LEts keep the discussion rational. You keep making this personal.

What are your feeligns on contraception? Imagine all the children we've prevented from being born by use of the condom....or even pulling out!. You could have been pooled in your moms navel, Imagine the millions of lives LOST! Does that raise within you the same disdain?

If not, then leave the "Denying someone a chance at life" argument at the door.

What your left with is the strictly valid legal argument of when to legally recognize life. On this point I can understand the pro-life POV, especially as science progresses to allow the unborn to live at earlier and earlier stages of development, but as it stands, without the mother's uterus to carry it to term a child will not survive born before the third trimester (in most cases).

Which raises the next point, how far are you willing to go to protect this unborn child... We make laws to prevent adults from giving children cigarettes and beer, does that mean we shoudl make laws preventign pregnant women from smoking and drinking?

Yes?

Ok, now we know that the greatest harm comes from alcohol and tobacco within the first month of pregnancy...so do we make laws preventing sexually active women from smoking and drinking? I mean..its for the good of the children and all...

MY point is, theres a very grey area that falls somewhere between the act of copulation and granting a new person complete protections under the law. Abortion is the fight for that grey area, and if you claim its black and white, you just haven't thought it through.

jgmaynard
01-26-2008, 09:51 AM
I'm certainly pro-choice in the first tri-mester, and pro-life in the 3rd. My problem comes in during the second.

And we make decisions about the life or death of family members every day in this country - just six months ago, my father (who was my best friend) was suffering and losing his mind slowly dying in a hospital and I had to make the decision to pull the plug. Maybe that makes me evil, but I knew he wouldn't want to live the way he was and it was the hardest decision I ever made. I miss him every day, but if I had to do it again, I would.

JM

boethius27
01-26-2008, 10:01 AM
My ex wife and I aborted a child while we were together. It sucked, but the option to do it was a wonderful benefit. Do I feel bad? Yes, but I am still pro-choice. I wouldn't have been able to finish grad school and thus would not have been able to give my future child the same benefits that I will now be able to offer. I took a potential life, but I'm giving a future life a much better lifestyle.

Make what you will of that, but either way, Ron Paul's view on everything else simply over powers his pro-life stance.

CitizenPlain
01-26-2008, 10:32 AM
The right to Kill or not to Kill ?

Kill who? If we are talking another individual,

then, No you don't have that right.

If you are talking of yourself, Yes you do have

that right. Life, Liberty. and pursuit of happinaess.

Do anything you like as long as you don't harm

another individual.

Especially the helpless!

IHaveaDream
01-26-2008, 11:13 AM
I am also pro-choice, but only because I think the issue is much too complicated to be determined by dogmatism. I believe the taking of a human life should always be approached with deep regret, whether it's abortion, war, capital punishment, etc.

Kade
01-27-2008, 09:46 PM
I support abortion up the point where brain activity begins.

That is my position as well.

derdy
01-27-2008, 09:56 PM
Formerly, pro-choice when it came to early stage abortions and very much against the death penalty.

Thanks to Dr. Paul, I really thought about the issue of life and now I don't support the early abortions and I still don't support the death penalty.

We should treat human life with respect.

It's definitely a state issue and I'm not someone that will bash you over the head for being pro-choice. Influence by example and sound, logical arguments.

austinchick
01-27-2008, 10:08 PM
I feel that 'pro-choice' is a phrase that was coined to minimize the real meaning of abortion.
I file that phrase with other 'code' type of slang/words that when spoken, they key in a certain emotion in people.
Similar 'emotion-on-a-cue' words/phrases are:
islamofascists, war on terror, long-shot candidate, weapons of mass distruction, woman right to choose, etc....

Kade
01-30-2008, 09:43 AM
I feel that 'pro-choice' is a phrase that was coined to minimize the real meaning of abortion.
I file that phrase with other 'code' type of slang/words that when spoken, they key in a certain emotion in people.
Similar 'emotion-on-a-cue' words/phrases are:
islamofascists, war on terror, long-shot candidate, weapons of mass distruction, woman right to choose, etc....

Irony. See, I happen to think "Pro-Life" was a term that meant to minimize the real meaning of anti-choice.

"I cannot project the degree of hatred required to make those women run around in crusades against abortion. Hatred is what they certainly project, not love for the embryos, which is a piece of nonsense no one could experience, but hatred, a virulent hatred for an unnamed object. Judging by the degree of those women's intensity, I would say that it is an issue of self-esteem and that their fear is metaphysical. Their hatred is directed against human beings as such, against the mind, against reason, against ambition, against success, against love, against any value that brings happiness to human life. In compliance with the dishonesty that dominates today's intellectual field, they call themselves "pro-life.""


and some others by Ayn Rand:

"One method of destroying a concept is by diluting its meaning. Observe that by ascribing rights to the unborn, i.e., the nonliving, the anti-abortionists obliterate the rights of the living: the right of young people to set the course of their own lives."

"A man who takes it upon himself to prescribe how others should dispose of their own lives - and who seeks to condemn them by law, i.e., by force, to the drudgery of an unchosen, lifelong servitude (which, more often than not, is beyond their economic means or capacity) - such a man has no right to pose as a defender of rights. A man with so little concern or respect for the rights of the individual, cannot and will not be a champion of freedom or of capitalism."

"Never mind the vicious nonsense of claiming that an embryo has a 'right to life.' A piece of protoplasm has no rights -— and no life in the human sense of the term. One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months. To equate a potential with an actual, is vicious; to advocate the sacrifice of the latter to the former, is unspeakable."

markj
01-30-2008, 10:32 AM
I am 100% Pro-Choice for such things as self determination, employment, where I live, how I live, how I worship (or not), What I eat, what I drink, what I ingest of anything, what I wear, what I earn, what I spend, what I drive, where I drive, what I carry on my person for protection, who I associate with, what establishments I trade with, what I trade with, what entertainment I participate in or as a spectator, who I vote for, what I vote for.

Other than that and maybe a few that I forgot, I am 100% Pro-Life. No killing of the innocent. Deny the state the power over life and death for it will be abused. There is no gray area there. Give the state power and it will abuse it period so I am 100% against the death penalty.

The baby is not to blame for the rape or for the unwanted nature of itself. It just is. It has committed no crime or harmed anyone else. It is life. Life is precious. When life ceases to be precious you get what we have now. A penchant for war, destruction and tens of millions of human lives snuffed out for purely selfish reasons.

Sometimes I think we deserve extinction. <- Sometimes.

Kade
01-30-2008, 10:50 AM
I am 100% Pro-Choice for such things as self determination, employment, where I live, how I live, how I worship (or not), What I eat, what I drink, what I ingest of anything, what I wear, what I earn, what I spend, what I drive, where I drive, what I carry on my person for protection, who I associate with, what establishments I trade with, what I trade with, what entertainment I participate in or as a spectator, who I vote for, what I vote for.

Other than that and maybe a few that I forgot, I am 100% Pro-Life. No killing of the innocent. Deny the state the power over life and death for it will be abused. There is no gray area there. Give the state power and it will abuse it period so I am 100% against the death penalty.

The baby is not to blame for the rape or for the unwanted nature of itself. It just is. It has committed no crime or harmed anyone else. It is life. Life is precious. When life ceases to be precious you get what we have now. A penchant for war, destruction and tens of millions of human lives snuffed out for purely selfish reasons.

Sometimes I think we deserve extinction. <- Sometimes.

So you are for making a law limiting other people's choices. They disagree with you, that a fetus has a right to a woman's body, has a right to life, because it is unborn, and you say, screw your opinion, screw your choice, I'm for limiting it with the government, because I happen to think cell life is important.


Don't pretend you thought too much about it.

Why are you not mourning the millions of unattached blastocysts that fall out of the incubator you call a vagina every day?

"One method of destroying a concept is by diluting its meaning. Observe that by ascribing rights to the unborn, i.e., the nonliving, the anti-abortionists obliterate the rights of the living: the right of young people to set the course of their own lives."

Theocrat
01-30-2008, 10:51 AM
Pro-death advocates (AKA "pro-choice") are for the "right" of an individual to do this (http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html), but they are against our government's "right" to do this (http://www.endthiswar.org/enemy.htm). Yeah, real consistent, indeed... :rolleyes:

Kade
01-30-2008, 01:06 PM
Pro-death advocates (AKA "pro-choice") are for the "right" of an individual to do this (http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html), but they are against our government's "right" to do this (http://www.endthiswar.org/enemy.htm). Yeah, real consistent, indeed... :rolleyes:

My workplace blocks both the sites. I can only imagine that you dug them out of the fringe. Putting your fingers in your ears and screaming about what you think we are, does not chance a damn thing. Go read a book.