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DeadtoSin
01-20-2008, 10:06 PM
*Edit* I hope that my comment is not moved to the Christian board. This post is intended for people to read through and reach out to Christians that they may know. It is typically of better use to Christians, but it is not solely for them. This may also help people that are not Christians to understand that not all Christians are sheep, and that they are worth reaching out to.

*Note* I am a Christian, and I originally wrote this for Christians. This is kind of my very short and early rough draft on my beliefs on religion in government. I know it says "we as Christians" occasionally, because I sent a message similar to this to my friends. If anyone wants to help me evolve some of my ideas, I would appreciate it.

I'm probably going to end up writing quite a long article about this subject to help convince fellow Christians on which way they should vote.

First of all, I'm kind of wary of us trying to get the federal government to do our job for us. Thats sort of what I feel like we as Christians are really doing in government as of lately. I'm not talking about voting against what you believe, and things like that. Definitely, vote for the candidate that fits your ideals the closest. However, we really push Congress and the Judiciary to enforce our morals.

I have a problem with this. First off, I think we should be careful about the way we go about bringing morality to this nation. Doing it with the iron first of the Federal government is a scary road to turn down. Just think of the abuses the government could get away with if they had not only the power but the moral high ground to do it as well!

Also, consider how non-Christians perceive us. If they are REQUIRED to act in the same fashion as we are, how are we any different from they are? Obviously we know the difference, but a non-Christian person would feel no compulsion to make any commitment, and they'd see no real reason.

It really goes back to the Pharisees and their desire to live a holy life by doing it themselves. Sure, if we had a law against lying, people wouldn't lie. But think about it, does that really make them more holy? Only the desire to live a life like Christ's life and your belief in Him saves you. So when we force our ideals on people, you've got to think, is that man trying to live holy..or is he trying to not get arrested/fined?

In any case, I've been rather unhappy with the Federal government's decisions on social issues. I mean, look at Roe vs. Wade. Do we really want something like THAT case on the books for all the things we hold dear to us as Christians?

We should be shining God's love, not trying to force the Federal govt to do so.

Thanks,
David

yongrel
01-20-2008, 10:08 PM
grassroots?

DeadtoSin
01-20-2008, 10:10 PM
Sorry, I should have clarified why I posted it. I posted this for Christians to give out to fellow Christians that might not support Ron Paul. It has done wonders for me so far. It explains what a Christian viewpoint ought to be in my opinion.

Corydoras
01-20-2008, 10:13 PM
Just wait a little while, it's going to get moved to the Christian ghetto board.
:rolleyes:

RockEnds
01-20-2008, 10:16 PM
I'm not a Christian, but I've studied the Bible.

I would like to know why Christians believe God wants them to get involved with government. The Bible quotes Jesus saying,


Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

When did that change?

I know there is a huge theological leap between the gospels and the Pauline epistles, but I still don't remember any indication that Christianity promotes political participation. Obviously, the OT was written as the law of the land. It was all about the administration of government. But the whole Jesus and the Golden Rule thing sort of negated the OT legalism. How do the Christians justify their political aspirations?

DeadtoSin
01-20-2008, 10:24 PM
As a Christian, we are supposed to live like everyone else. That includes being involved in government. I believe things are sins, just like all Christians. You cannot have a problem with me believing that. However, the problem comes with some Christians trying to get the Fed govt to do our job for us. I believe it is our job, not the government's job.

So you don't have a problem with me being a Christian, and upholding my values, as long as I don't force you to live a certain way. I believe the local churches should be trying to make the difference, not the government. You have a problem with the Christian Right group that isn't really upholding Christian values at all.

RockEnds
01-20-2008, 10:28 PM
As a Christian, we are supposed to live like everyone else. That includes being involved in government. I believe things are sins, just like all Christians. You cannot have a problem with me believing that. However, the problem comes with some Christians trying to get the Fed govt to do our job for us. I believe it is our job, not the government's job.

So you don't have a problem with me being a Christian, and upholding my values, as long as I don't force you to live a certain way. I believe the local churches should be trying to make the difference, not the government. You have a problem with the Christian Right group that isn't really upholding Christian values at all.

Yes. I wasn't suggesting that all Christians should stay completely out of government entirely, although it may have sounded that way. But I really don't understand why some Christians believe that it is their Christian duty to force their Christian values on others by the force of law.

Edit: I think the point of the OT was to enforce religious values through law, but I really think that it was a very major theme in Jesus' ministry that this was wrong.

DeadtoSin
01-20-2008, 10:30 PM
Honestly, it is because they have not thought the idea through. Trust me, everyone, religious or not must have some Pharisee blood in them. We all get an idea, and we follow that idea and break our own principles, and we don't even realize it.

We want to spread Christ's love, but we don't realize that by forcing people to live a certain way, we aren't making them holy, we are making them angry.

Corydoras
01-20-2008, 10:45 PM
I wasn't suggesting that all Christians should stay completely out of government entirely, although it may have sounded that way. But I really don't understand why some Christians believe that it is their Christian duty to force their Christian values on others by the force of law.

I really, really appreciate your reassurance.

Anyway, this goes back to John Winthrop's "City on a Hill," which was the nucleus of an idea that built up among SOME American Christians that the United States is a Christian country, and that it will fail if it does not as a society fulfill Christian values.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/winthrop.htm

I don't agree with this view.

JustBcuz
01-20-2008, 10:53 PM
We want to spread Christ's love, but we don't realize that by forcing people to live a certain way, we aren't making them holy, we are making them angry.

AKA Blowback ;)

WATYF
01-20-2008, 11:02 PM
Yes. I wasn't suggesting that all Christians should stay completely out of government entirely, although it may have sounded that way. But I really don't understand why some Christians believe that it is their Christian duty to force their Christian values on others by the force of law.

Edit: I think the point of the OT was to enforce religious values through law, but I really think that it was a very major theme in Jesus' ministry that this was wrong.

You're absolutely right, and this is clear through not only Jesus' teaching but also later in books such as Romans and 1 Cor.

The law of the Old Testament failed. The concept of forcing humans to attain a certain level of "holiness" by using legal compulsion did not work when God tried it, and it has never worked since (when men try it).

The reason that Christians engage in this behavior, though, is because everyone wants to enforce their worldview. Everyone. This goes for all groups. That's why there is a huge censoring of Ron Paul in the "right-wing" media. The same people that used to cry about how the "left-wing" media always censored dissenting views is now doing the exact same thing. It's an innate human desire to see your worldview propagated as much as possible (and to try to stifle views that contradict yours), and many people, including Christians, are unable to resist this temptation. As a result, some Chrstians honestly believe that it's the right thing to do to enact Christian morals as law.

Unfortunately, they're wrong, and they end up doing more harm than good since 1) enacting God's will as law doesn't work (even when He tries it) and 2) trying to force someone to do something that they don't believe in only makes them resent the person (or group) who's trying to force them to do it. So Christians not only DON'T end up with a more moral country, but in addition, most of the country hates them as well.

It will probably take several more years before the church figures this out. They tend to be well behind the curve on these kinds of things. But eventually, the majority of them will figure out that the new covenant (i.e. the new testament precepts) are supposed to be matters of the heart, not matters of the law. And hopefully, they'll also go back to the time when the church actually GAVE to the community (instead of always asking the community to give to them) so they can take the burden off of the government to care for the poor and homeless and needy.


WATYF

RockEnds
01-20-2008, 11:36 PM
Yes, I remember "City on a Hill." The Puritans were very puritanical, weren't they? ;) I really don't understand how it's all justified with the Bible, though.

I admit I wasn't raised in church. We went for awhile, but one of my earliest memories is my dad declaring we would no longer attend. The church got those envelopes for you to write your name on when you gave a donation, and dad said that all the money should be given in secret. God knows who gives, and it should be nobody else's business. That was the end of church for about 10 years. We did have lots of Bibles, though, and I read every translation.

So I wasn't influenced at a young age by church doctrine, but I did like what Jesus had to say. The Apostle Paul creeps me out. Sorry. I only wish that Christians would look a little deeper into what Jesus really preached and why the religious authorities wanted him killed. Jesus was all about limiting the power of religious authorities.

Corydoras
01-20-2008, 11:53 PM
Actually, Rock, justificiations for a politicized Christianity can definitely be found in the Bible... you just weren't looking for it back when you read it...

I don't feel like doing the work to find it all and put it together, especially when I don't agree with it, but it's definitely in there. The Bible withstands a multiplicity of readings.

Dave Pedersen
01-21-2008, 12:18 AM
If you look at the developments of social change as they conflict with Christianity you will see that the Christian culture preceded the non-Christian culture in the United States. So the changes which have come about have been viewed by Christians as assaults on the old status quo. Today oftentimes the non-christians see things the other way around, that Christians force their way upon society. Once upon a time the schoolhouse and the church were the same building. Once upon a time bibles were studied in the classroom and there was prayer time in schools, many of which were operated and funded by the local church. This is where we as a nation came from. Things have changed and every change introduced has been by the godless upon what practices have already been established. Then the godless turn it around and claim it is the Christians who force their practices on the public.

Take prayer in schools. How is it that in public schools children are punished for praying? This is laughable and when Christians fight this relatively new development they are attacked as violent crazy theocrats. On the other hand public schools should not force anyone to pray to any particular God, this is also ridiculous.

So it is with evolution and abortion and the pledge and the public displays of the manger at Christmastime. This was a Christian nation from day one. The word "God" appears in 49 state constitutions and even the founders were theists or Christians. Only recently, within the last 40 years, due to anti-christian campaigns run by academia in the secondary institutions has there been an assault, epitomized by the unrelenting mantra: ..."religion is responsible for all the wars throughout history"..., not by Christians but by the godless against our Christianity as it manifests in public life.

The fact is throughout mankind's history religions and patriotism have been deliberately misused to convince people to fight wars only desired by those in power who can profit from wars no matter the outcome.

Christians are fighting this change and they like their opponents do not always do so with a well grounded grasp of constitutional principles. Both sides take leave of our founding documents to promote their agendas and those who fight according to the godless agenda are no less virulent and potentially violent than are the godly.

There is only one fundamental rift among any people in any society and it always hinges on the belief or lack of belief in an intelligent Creator. Those who do not believe fall into two camps. The honest and the dishonest. The dishonest fall into two camps. Those who lie within the secular institutions to gain power such as the lawyers and bankers and professors and those who claim to have faith to gain power. This last and final group, those who claim to have faith but lie in order to gain power are those who deceive the godless into hating the godly. They do this by deliberately corrupting every religion they touch to such a degree many free thinking people reject religiosity altogether and turn away in repugnant disdain of every such notion.

To those who hate religion I say for your own benefit do not be deceived by those liars who claim to be religionists (and there are very many in positions of authority in the big business organizations which call themselves churches and synagogues and mosques) into hating the instrument, the unwitting masses of the faithful, when in fact your enemy is also our enemy and as yet we are each only partially able to peer past the shrouds which mask them all.

RockEnds
01-21-2008, 12:29 AM
Well, not to be overly critical, but the Native Americans preceded the Christians by alot.

Corydoras
01-21-2008, 01:58 AM
Well, not to be overly critical, but the Native Americans preceded the Christians by alot.

In North America. But not in the entity of the United States.

WATYF
01-21-2008, 02:37 PM
So it is with evolution and abortion and the pledge and the public displays of the manger at Christmastime. This was a Christian nation from day one. The word "God" appears in 49 state constitutions and even the founders were theists or Christians. Only recently, within the last 40 years, due to anti-christian campaigns run by academia in the secondary institutions has there been an assault, epitomized by the unrelenting mantra: ..."religion is responsible for all the wars throughout history"..., not by Christians but by the godless against our Christianity as it manifests in public life.
This was not a Christian nation from the start. This was a nation started by people (some of whom were Christians) who desired the freedom to practice whatever religion they wanted.

It doesn't matter if every single founding father wrote a legal affidavit declaring that they were a born-again Christian who believes in every word of the Bible. The fact is, they didn't say that this nation, and everyone in it, had to practice Christianity (in fact, they said the opposite).

And now, a growing majority of this nation's people either practice something other than Christianity, or aren't really committed to any religion... as a result, the more you try to force Christian views on the nation, the more people will buck against it. Yes, back in the day we used to pray in school and read the Bible... but that was back when most people were Christians. Who was gonna complain back then? But now, you've got atheists and Buddhists and Muslims and Jews and agnostics and all manner of people sending their kids to school, and they don't want someone else's view forced upon them.

It's not that the Christians want to force something "new" upon the nation. It's that they're unwilling to accept that the nation is changing. They're unwilling to step aside (at the government level) and allow people to believe what they want... which is exactly what the founding fathers were fighting for in the first place.


WATYF

RockEnds
01-21-2008, 04:09 PM
If you look at the developments of social change as they conflict with Christianity you will see that the Christian culture preceded the non-Christian culture in the United States. So the changes which have come about have been viewed by Christians as assaults on the old status quo. Today oftentimes the non-christians see things the other way around, that Christians force their way upon society. Once upon a time the schoolhouse and the church were the same building. Once upon a time bibles were studied in the classroom and there was prayer time in schools, many of which were operated and funded by the local church. This is where we as a nation came from. Things have changed and every change introduced has been by the godless upon what practices have already been established. Then the godless turn it around and claim it is the Christians who force their practices on the public.

Take prayer in schools. How is it that in public schools children are punished for praying? This is laughable and when Christians fight this relatively new development they are attacked as violent crazy theocrats. On the other hand public schools should not force anyone to pray to any particular God, this is also ridiculous.

So it is with evolution and abortion and the pledge and the public displays of the manger at Christmastime. This was a Christian nation from day one. The word "God" appears in 49 state constitutions and even the founders were theists or Christians. Only recently, within the last 40 years, due to anti-christian campaigns run by academia in the secondary institutions has there been an assault, epitomized by the unrelenting mantra: ..."religion is responsible for all the wars throughout history"..., not by Christians but by the godless against our Christianity as it manifests in public life.

The fact is throughout mankind's history religions and patriotism have been deliberately misused to convince people to fight wars only desired by those in power who can profit from wars no matter the outcome.

Christians are fighting this change and they like their opponents do not always do so with a well grounded grasp of constitutional principles. Both sides take leave of our founding documents to promote their agendas and those who fight according to the godless agenda are no less virulent and potentially violent than are the godly.

There is only one fundamental rift among any people in any society and it always hinges on the belief or lack of belief in an intelligent Creator. Those who do not believe fall into two camps. The honest and the dishonest. The dishonest fall into two camps. Those who lie within the secular institutions to gain power such as the lawyers and bankers and professors and those who claim to have faith to gain power. This last and final group, those who claim to have faith but lie in order to gain power are those who deceive the godless into hating the godly. They do this by deliberately corrupting every religion they touch to such a degree many free thinking people reject religiosity altogether and turn away in repugnant disdain of every such notion.

To those who hate religion I say for your own benefit do not be deceived by those liars who claim to be religionists (and there are very many in positions of authority in the big business organizations which call themselves churches and synagogues and mosques) into hating the instrument, the unwitting masses of the faithful, when in fact your enemy is also our enemy and as yet we are each only partially able to peer past the shrouds which mask them all.



My family first came to this continent in 1676. I don’t know much of what they found here. Very few of their personal stories survive. However, I am firmly connected to their role in the settlement of the county in which I live. My grandmother was raised in the home of her grandfather. I spent the days of my childhood in my grandmother’s home while my parents worked. Thus, I grew up with a clear window into the past. Grandma’s grandfather came to this county as a boy in the 1820’s. It opened for settlement in 1841. I assure you, the natives were already here when he arrived. He authored several stories about the matter, many of which can be found scattered about in local libraries. For the most part, the settlers lived in peace and partnership with the natives. My g-grandfather helped build the first church/schoolhouse here. During the construction of his own home, one of the ropes broke and the log killed one of his cherished friends, ‘Indian Dick’. Indian Dick was buried in what later became a small, country cemetery. The cemetery was just over the fence from our north field. As a child, I decorated his grave with flowers, shells, rocks, and whatever else small children drag about. The original inhabitants of this area were asked to leave when the government came in. Some of them bought their own property up by Tama and still have a reservation there. Others stayed. Their blood runs through the veins of my sons.

While some of the evangelicals may think they were here first, there are others who disagree. You see, there was a time when there was no authority here but God. God was whatever one supposed he might be. Opinions varied. We understand how to build churches and schools, and we aren’t dependent upon a preacher or the government to tell us what to believe.