Issue: Immigration: Would illegal immigration really stop with no welfare state?

[ChooseLiberty]

How about a thought experiment - let's say the US gets rid of all the "welfare state", there are no barriers to immigration from any point in the world to the US, the cost is zero and all jobs in the USA are filled. Would there be any immigration to the US?

Then - Add to this the fact that there is a virtually unlimited supply of third world population. Any immigrants you allow into the US will quickly be replaced in the third world population pool. What is the equilibrium point? At what point do they stop coming? Or at what point to the number of people coming in = the number of people trying to escape?

[Brutus]

If there is no welfare state then the risk associated with coming is higher. There is no safety net which is better than what you currently have as a "worst case." That will reduce the flow below what it is now. Some who would come will be less motivated to try. Decisions are made at the margin.

If people who come here are only the ones who are productive then the problems associated with immigration are greatly reduced. Not eliminated, but reduced.

The problems AREN'T the illegals. They are the symptom. The problem is the welfare state. It is sapping the energy from the culture. We don't reproduce sufficiently to replace our own numbers. This is the welfare state's doing.

http://www.mises.org/story/2451

[ChooseLiberty]

I stipulated no welfare.

People would still come. And there is an unlimited supply of uneducated third world people who want to come to the US. Does anyone think they evaluate the "welfare" situation in a country before they migrate?

They usually migrate because of conditions in their home country. They are miserable. They have over populated their land (like Mexico because of Catholic Church rules on birth control). It's completely Malthusian.

They are willing to gamble that things will be better since almost anything would be better. Maybe they have seen American movies or TV shows. Looks great.

When will they stop coming?

WHEN CONDITIONS IN THE USA ARE EQUIVALENT TO THE CONDITIONS THEY ARE IN NOW.

Personally, I'm not interested in living in a third world USA.




If there is no welfare state then the risk associated with coming is higher. There is no safety net which is better than what you currently have as a "worst case." That will reduce the flow below what it is now. Some who would come will be less motivated to try. Decisions are made at the margin.

If people who come here are only the ones who are productive then the problems associated with immigration are greatly reduced. Not eliminated, but reduced.

The problems AREN'T the illegals. They are the symptom. The problem is the welfare state. It is sapping the energy from the culture. We don't reproduce sufficiently to replace our own numbers. This is the welfare state's doing.

http://www.mises.org/story/2451

[jblosser]

You can't consider it in a vacuum. Along with the loss of the welfare state and the opening of the borders we'd need to have a market economy. A true market economy is capable of creating more jobs than there are peope; historically "0 unemployment" is pessimistic for a real market.

We do still have limited geography in this country so at some point yes, we could run out of space, but before that point I have every realistic belief a real market economy would have given us options other than living on this single rock. We can't stay stuck here forever.

If that's too pie-in-the-sky for you, consider the effect of us setting a good example for the rest of the world. Despite their problems China has been watching us and adopting parts of our culture for years now, whether their government wants it or not (it's some of both).

[Man from La Mancha]

How about a thought experiment - let's say the US gets rid of all the "welfare state", there are no barriers to immigration from any point in the world to the US, the cost is zero and all jobs in the USA are filled. Would there be any immigration to the US?

Then - Add to this the fact that there is a virtually unlimited supply of third world population. Any immigrants you allow into the US will quickly be replaced in the third world population pool. What is the equilibrium point? At what point do they stop coming? Or at what point to the number of people coming in = the number of people trying to escape?


Yes, they would come and just work cheaper thus driving our standard of living down. And when we are at the level of poverty of their counties then they would stop coming.

.

[jblosser]

Yes, they would come and just work cheaper thus driving our standard of living down. And when we are at the level of poverty of their counties then they would stop coming.

.

Except that a free market advances technology forward and creates higher tier jobs and more profit, which pushes the standard of living through the roof for the high- and low-skilled works alike.

[ladyjade3]

I'd love to eliminate the welfare state and let private charitable orgs take over.

I think the real reason they come here is job market. They can make comparatively great money here. And I think a lot of them make above minimum wage. The employers can avoid the red tape and added expense of all the labor laws if they just hire an illegal. It's not about the wage, I suspect, its about the expense of complying with labor laws.

I'm just guessing here... But whenever I suggest not allowing illegals access to social services, free health care, free education, it makes the issue a lot less contentious to a lot of people.

Its the welfare system that illegals can take advantage of that makes people mad. Its the lack of a true free market in employment that tempts employers to hire them.

[cjhowe]

Yes, they would come and just work cheaper thus driving our standard of living down. And when we are at the level of poverty of their counties then they would stop coming.

.
Standard of living is not measured by the revenue you take in. It's measured by the quality and quantity of goods and services available and the way in which they are distributed.

[angelatc]

If you look tp the past, yes, immigrants came in waves but about half of them eventually went back home. All of them came for a chance at achieving success, American style, not demanding a piece of the American welfare pie.

[Gee]

People always migrate from more socialistic nations to freer ones... Always. Its also almost always true that the their free neighbors are richer. So no, it would certainly not stop with no welfare state, but it would be much less hated.

[hard@work]

If you want to see how to stop "illegal immigration" you should start by visiting the places the "illegals" are comming from. Take a good look around. There's your problem.

If you want to supress the damage, then you need to stem the flow and begin working on heavy assimilation programs.

Good luck with that.

[ChooseLiberty]

Good job answering the actual question. :D


People always migrate from more socialistic nations to freer ones... Always. Its also almost always true that the their free neighbors are richer. So no, it would certainly not stop with no welfare state, but it would be much less hated.

[lucius]

If you want to see how to stop "illegal immigration" you should start by visiting the places the "illegals" are comming from. Take a good look around. There's your problem.

If you want to supress the damage, then you need to stem the flow and begin working on heavy assimilation programs.

Good luck with that.

I agree with you. Because of this safety-valve of allowing the most economic disparaged to sneak into America, circumvents any meaningful economic reform from the countries the illegal aliens come from. Most have been heavily Marxist indoctrinated as well as indoctrinated with American entitlements, sub 5th grade education, and do not have the inclination nor education to operate in a constitutional republic, but that could be said for many Americans as well thanks to our CFR directed Fabian socializations. Seal the border; reign in the transnational corporations by enforcing, already on the books, The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) with up to $10,000 fine and/or up to six months in prison per illegal alien hired, get rid of ‘anchor babies’; start the deportation deep into Mexico of illegal aliens just like was done under Eisenhower administration. This problem goes away. For the MEChA trolls and others, check out this website ImmigrationCounters.com provides the public key statistics resulting from illegal immigration in America:

http://immigrationcounters.com/

[ChooseLiberty]

I think the point is fairly clear.

Picture a yourself as a third worlder in a country with a stagnant, primitive economy. You don't know if you will get your next meal or not. People are killing each other over the few resources available or for no reason at all.

You've heard about AMERICA! and all you have to do is cross a desert, hop a boat, overstay a visitor visa to get there. But wait! They have shut down their welfare system! Do you care? NO. You're coming anyway.

There are millions of people just like that and even if you let them all in they would just be that many more to replace them in a couple of years in the same situation.

The US should be shipping free birth control to all these places but the Catholic Church and other lefty organizations would screech bloody murder.

[Man from La Mancha]

I think the point is fairly clear.
The US should be shipping free birth control to all these places but the Catholic Church and other lefty organizations would screech bloody murder.

Planned Jesuit NWO:D

[PennCustom4RP]

Its all about Carrying Capacity of the land, be it jobs, free space, housing, food, sanitation, whatever. Even without the safety net of welfare, the people will keep coming, even when the resources have been depleted, because they hope there is still that little sliver left for them, and it can't be any worse off than where they are now. Luckily the land has cures for these ills, they are War, pestilence, and famine, certain to deplete the numbers using the resource.
Look at Europe during the Dark Ages, climate change, crop failure, and the capacity was exceeded, then War and the Plague fixed it all.
Afterward there was a boon called the Renaissance where everyone flourished.

[Wendi]

There is a difference between ILLEGAL immigration and LEGAL immigration that must be factored in to this type of discussion in order to yeild any applicable answers.

[1000-points-of-fright]

How about a thought experiment - let's say the US gets rid of all the "welfare state", there are no barriers to immigration from any point in the world to the US, the cost is zero and all jobs in the USA are filled. Would there be any immigration to the US?

Your premise is flawed to begin with or at the very least does not jibe with the title of the thread. If "there are no barriers to immigration from any point in the world to the US" then illegal immigration would not exist because ALL immigration would be legal.

[ChooseLiberty]

Ummm, not really. It's a "thought experiment" so it's not really constrained. I just made it very clear so people couldn't bring up a bunch of silly points like - "they have to swim the ocean" or "who pays the plane fare", etc. There's not much of a barrier to entry by illegals now. Q.E.D. :D





Your premise is flawed to begin with or at the very least does not jibe with the title of the thread. If "there are no barriers to immigration from any point in the world to the US" then illegal immigration would not exist because ALL immigration would be legal.