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JenaS62
01-20-2008, 12:28 PM
Can any explain what a brokered convention is? How is it different from a regular convention?


Thanks!

CelestialRender
01-20-2008, 12:34 PM
Can any explain what a brokered convention is? How is it different from a regular convention?


Thanks!

A brokered convention is a year in which no one out-and-out won a majority of delegates. So the candidates jockey for who should be Pres, Veep, etc...and the delegates shift back and forth until someone gets a majority.

UtahApocalypse
01-20-2008, 12:38 PM
In the case of some states (Utah for one) when it is a brokered covention in the second round the delegates can vote their conscience, and no longer bound to the primary winner. So in Utahs case we have been working to get delegate positions lined up. Likely that Romney will win here, but that wont matter after the first round.

Crickett
01-20-2008, 12:53 PM
Does a candidate have to win a primary state..come in first, to be considered in this?

break4me
01-20-2008, 12:55 PM
I heard 5 states, but I do not know for sure.

JenaS62
01-20-2008, 12:58 PM
Thanks for the information. Sounds kind of complicated and messy to me but I've seen posts on here saying it's a good thing. Hum...

JenaS62
01-20-2008, 01:00 PM
Does a candidate have to win a primary state..come in first, to be considered in this?



Yes I was wondering that too.

Flirple
01-20-2008, 01:09 PM
Typically (for many elections now) a candidate emerges from the primary season with more than 50% of the delegates. In which case the party convention becomes a mere pep rally for the nominnee.

But in a year like this where we have multiple candidates splitting up the vote there might not be any candidate with the more than 50% of the delegates needed to secure the nomination. In which case the party convention becomes a tool for choosing the nominee. This is what is known as a "brokered convention". There hasn't been one in decades. In a brokered convention anything can happen. It could be as simple as a candidate with 20% of the delegates (for example) agrees to give his delegates to another candiate with 35% of the delegate which would give him a majority of delegates and make him the nominee. And in exchange he could make the candiate that gave him the delegates his vice presidential running mate. But much stranger and more complicated senarios can play out in a brokered conventions.

This is why it is important that even if we can't win 51% of the delegates in the primaries we still need to get as many delegates as we can so that if there is a brokered convention (very possible in this unique campaign year) we have some leverage. Ron can really get everyones attention with a respectable number of delegates and the threat of running as an independent. What are they willing to trade Ron Paul for his delegates? A high level position? The elimination of a department? Maybe the republican party would give him a powerful position in the House of Reps if he will just hand over his delegates? You get the idea. This is why it is important to keep working hard and sending money to Ron because the longer he stays in this race the more delegates he can get and the bigger impact he can have in a brokered convention.

Right now Ron has about 6 delegates although that is not official because technically Iowa and Nevada haven't chosen their delegates yet but thats a long story that is not relevant to this conversation.

But remember, a brokered convention will only be needed if nobody emerges with a majority of the delegates.

mmink15
01-20-2008, 01:12 PM
If Ron Paul wins the nomination via brokered convention. Will it mean he has to accept another candidate as VP?

UtahApocalypse
01-20-2008, 01:13 PM
I think the "5 state" thing is you must have the majority of delegates at the time of the nomination. Not necessarily from the caucus/primaries.

For instance in Utah after the first round the delegates can change who they vote for.

Eponym_mi
01-20-2008, 01:22 PM
A brokered convention would be very similar to the Survior TV show. For RP to be successful, all of his opponents must remain bitter rivals and RP seen as the lesser of two evils. But if any two candidates receive 25% of the delegates or more and form an alliance, the brokered scenario could be in trouble.

Flirple
01-20-2008, 01:30 PM
Yeah, all delegates sent to the convention are not created equally. Some can vote thier conscience in the second round and some can not. Some are "bound" and some are "unbound".

This is why having Ron Paul delegates was so important because even if another candidate wins a state if an "unbound" delegate was personally for Ron Paul she might get a chance to vote for Ron Paul in a brokered convention even though Ron didn't win that state's primary.

Flirple
01-20-2008, 01:41 PM
If Ron Paul wins the nomination via brokered convention. Will it mean he has to accept another candidate as VP?

There are no "rules" really. But it really is sort of like the show "Survivor". It's a game of alliances and back room deals. Ron Paul is very unpopular with the rest of the candidates so it's a safe bet that nobody will tell their delegates to vote for Ron unless there was something in it for them. On the other hand, someone like Fred Thompson is a close friend of John McCain so it is concievable that he might be willing to direct his delegates to switch to McCain without expecting anything particular in return from McCain.

The point is, it's mostly left up to human nature and anything can happen really. On the democrat side, for example John Edwards might be trying to just stay in the race and hope to get enough delegates so that if Obama and Clinton are stuck at 49% and 48% (for example) and John has enough delegates to push one over the top he will have a huge bargaining chip to get one of them to agree to make Edwards the running mate.

mmink15
01-20-2008, 04:01 PM
Thanks for the info

Redcard
01-20-2008, 04:07 PM
Basically, here's how the convention works. Different delegates become unbound per their state rules.

1. First, all the delegates get together, and various people are nominated to receive the republican nomination. These people nominated must have won the majority of delegates in at least five states.

2. Second, it goes to voice vote. The delegates are bound for the first round (and maybe further rounds) to their state choices. They may only assign delegates to a nominated candidate. Typically , candidates who do not get enough for nomination devote their candidates to those that have.

3. If it does not result in a majority of votes for a single person, the convention goes "brokered", in which cases deals are made, things are adjusted, etc, and candidates may vote their conscience and select any one who has been nominated in step one.

gaazn
01-20-2008, 04:14 PM
Does a candidate have to win a primary state..come in first, to be considered in this?


the eventual candidate doesn't even have to be running for President. There is already a push for General Patraeus in case the convention becomes deadlocked. It would make the election a referendum on the war. If Ron Paul makes a strong showing in the election, they might select someone who would appease his supporters as well as the others', like Mark Sanford. If Obama is selected, they might want to choose Colin Powell to make Obama look like amateurish.

dreicher
01-20-2008, 04:16 PM
Remember, though, something working against us...

30%+ of the delegates are sent to the convention outside of the primary process. They are RNC "big-wigs" like Senators, Congressmen, Governors, etc.

Redcard
01-20-2008, 04:17 PM
the eventual candidate doesn't even have to be running for President. There is already a push for General Patraeus in case the convention becomes deadlocked. It would make the election a referendum on the war. If Ron Paul makes a strong showing in the election, they might select someone who would appease his supporters as well as the others', like Mark Sanford. If Obama is selected, they might want to choose Colin Powell to make Obama look like amateurish.


That's not true. VIA rule 40(b) of the GOP , you must have five primary states won to win the Presidential Nomination or Vice Presidential Nomination.

(If there is only one VP, however, they do not need to win five primary states.)

(b) Each candidate for nomination for President of the United States and Vice President of the United States shall demonstrate the support of a majority of the delegates from each of five (5) or more states, severally, prior to the presentation of the name of that candidate for nomination.

http://www.gop.com/About/Rules31-41.htm

dreicher
01-20-2008, 04:21 PM
That's not true. VIA rule 40(b) of the GOP , you must have five primary states won to win the Presidential Nomination or Vice Presidential Nomination.

(If there is only one VP, however, they do not need to win five primary states.)

(b) Each candidate for nomination for President of the United States and Vice President of the United States shall demonstrate the support of a majority of the delegates from each of five (5) or more states, severally, prior to the presentation of the name of that candidate for nomination.

http://www.gop.com/About/Rules31-41.htm

Yeah. That's what a push from the floor is for. Here's the scenario...Jeb Bush (you just know its going to happen) has his supporters make a play from the floor for delegates (after the first vote) and manages to get a majority in 5 states then presents for the nomination...and now we're off to the races.

cjhowe
01-20-2008, 04:22 PM
Any and every rule not supported by actual electoral law is on the table at a convention. You can, for instance, before any voting introduce a rule to unbound all delegates. If 50% of the delegates agree, everyone gets to vote their conscience. One can introduce a rule to eliminate rule 40b and if 50% of the delegates agree, goodbye 40b.

Redcard
01-20-2008, 04:22 PM
Yeah. That's what a push from the floor is for. Here's the scenario...Jeb Bush (you just know its going to happen) has his supporters make a play from the floor for delegates (after the first vote) and manages to get a majority in 5 states then presents for the nomination...and now we're off to the races.

The nominations must happen before the role call vote.

gaazn
01-20-2008, 04:28 PM
That's not true. VIA rule 40(b) of the GOP , you must have five primary states won to win the Presidential Nomination or Vice Presidential Nomination.

(If there is only one VP, however, they do not need to win five primary states.)

(b) Each candidate for nomination for President of the United States and Vice President of the United States shall demonstrate the support of a majority of the delegates from each of five (5) or more states, severally, prior to the presentation of the name of that candidate for nomination.

http://www.gop.com/About/Rules31-41.htm


it doesn't say that the person needs to have the delegate support from winning 5 primary or caucus. they must have a support of the majority of delegates from five states.

withallmyheart
01-20-2008, 04:33 PM
In the case of some states (Utah for one) when it is a brokered covention in the second round the delegates can vote their conscience, and no longer bound to the primary winner. So in Utahs case we have been working to get delegate positions lined up. Likely that Romney will win here, but that wont matter after the first round.

That's why ad campaigns in Utah are NOT a lost cause. Please help us pay for the ad campaign we have in Southern Utah. One ad has been placed for next week. The way the chipin is looking now the second ad that was going to come out the Thursday before Super Tuesday will not due to lack of funds.

Here's our chipin: http://ronpaulstgeorgemeetup.chipin.com/so-utah-ron-paul-newspaper-ads

Here's our ad that will be coming out for next week: http://files.meetup.com/497390/SouthernUtahFocus_HalfPage_RonPaul.pdf

Please donate.

Thanks.

Redcard
01-20-2008, 04:33 PM
it doesn't say that the person needs to have the delegate support from winning 5 primary or caucus. they must have a support of the majority of delegates from five states.

Yes, but the delegates are BOUND through the nomination before the role call part of the vote. They become unbound AFTER the names are nominated. Once the roll call begins, there are no further nominations.

The National Convention is using the House of Representatives Rules.

So these "infiltration of the other delegates" plan falls apart when you realize that we have to win five states FIRST.

gaazn
01-20-2008, 04:49 PM
Yes, but the delegates are BOUND through the nomination before the role call part of the vote. They become unbound AFTER the names are nominated. Once the roll call begins, there are no further nominations.

The National Convention is using the House of Representatives Rules.

So these "infiltration of the other delegates" plan falls apart when you realize that we have to win five states FIRST.


there's always loopholes...

"A motion to suspend the rules shall always be in order, but only when made by authority of a majority of the delegates from any state and seconded by a majority of the delegates from each of five (5) or more other states severally."

the definition of win is not the same as meaning having the majority support of

Redcard
01-20-2008, 04:52 PM
there's always loopholes...

"A motion to suspend the rules shall always be in order, but only when made by authority of a majority of the delegates from any state and seconded by a majority of the delegates from each of five (5) or more other states severally."

the definition of win is not the same as meaning having the majority support of

That's a MOTION to suspend the rules.

That's not the VOTE to suspend the rules.

You're advocating suspension of the rules so that sleeper delegates that we're "placing" into other candidates holds would wake up, and betray their states wish to nominate Ron Paul.

We might get five states worth of delegates to make the motion.. but we'll never win the vote to suspend the rules.

Let's just do it legitimately, okay? Let's not advocate fraud and cheating.

UtahApocalypse
01-20-2008, 04:57 PM
Yes, but the delegates are BOUND through the nomination before the role call part of the vote. They become unbound AFTER the names are nominated. Once the roll call begins, there are no further nominations.

The National Convention is using the House of Representatives Rules.

So these "infiltration of the other delegates" plan falls apart when you realize that we have to win five states FIRST.

You sir are very incorrect. There will be only ONE nominee, and that is decided through the delegate nominating process. Each state has different rule for their delegates. In Utah they are bound only to the first vote. Trust me on this, we have worked directly with the campaign on it.

gaazn
01-20-2008, 05:09 PM
That's a MOTION to suspend the rules.

That's not the VOTE to suspend the rules.

You're advocating suspension of the rules so that sleeper delegates that we're "placing" into other candidates holds would wake up, and betray their states wish to nominate Ron Paul.

We might get five states worth of delegates to make the motion.. but we'll never win the vote to suspend the rules.

Let's just do it legitimately, okay? Let's not advocate fraud and cheating.


i now the difference between motion and vote. it's a loophole in case an outside person is needed as candidate, so it's neither fraud nor cheating. it appears that you however do not know the difference between winning a state and having the majority support of delegates from state.

Redcard
01-20-2008, 05:12 PM
You sir are very incorrect. There will be only ONE nominee, and that is decided through the delegate nominating process. Each state has different rule for their delegates. In Utah they are bound only to the first vote. Trust me on this, we have worked directly with the campaign on it.

No no no.

You must be nominated to be picked to be the Republican Nominee.

Please, read the GOP rules on www.gop.com

MikeStanart
01-20-2008, 05:19 PM
If Ron Paul wins the nomination via brokered convention. Will it mean he has to accept another candidate as VP?

In order for us to convince those delegates to move to paul; that would probably be one of the conditions.

cjhowe
01-20-2008, 05:25 PM
That's a MOTION to suspend the rules.

That's not the VOTE to suspend the rules.

You're advocating suspension of the rules so that sleeper delegates that we're "placing" into other candidates holds would wake up, and betray their states wish to nominate Ron Paul.

We might get five states worth of delegates to make the motion.. but we'll never win the vote to suspend the rules.

Let's just do it legitimately, okay? Let's not advocate fraud and cheating.

The only people that wouldn't be in favor of suspending the rules would be those delegations that are in favor of the candidate for which they are bound. Everyone else will be screaming to make a deal.

UtahApocalypse
01-20-2008, 05:31 PM
No no no.

You must be nominated to be picked to be the Republican Nominee.

Please, read the GOP rules on www.gop.com

So your saying that there is no point in us getting Ron Paul delegates that if we don't win 5 states we are out? I think you are wrong, so does the campaign. In Utah specifically the only way Ron Paul will have delegates is in a brokered convention after the first round (Based on a Romney Win). The cmapiagn has advised us here that getting delegates is 10x more important then the primary. I personally will be running for delegate, unless what you are trying to say is thats pointless :rolleyes:

mosquitobite
01-20-2008, 05:44 PM
I think the campaign realizes the importance of delegates for the previously mentioned "deals" that can be made. It may not get him the WH, but it will get him recognition and power that can help our movement TREMENDOUSLY!

Bradley in DC
01-20-2008, 05:47 PM
Any and every rule not supported by actual electoral law is on the table at a convention. You can, for instance, before any voting introduce a rule to unbound all delegates. If 50% of the delegates agree, everyone gets to vote their conscience. One can introduce a rule to eliminate rule 40b and if 50% of the delegates agree, goodbye 40b.

That is not true.
The rules "binding" delegates are set by state election law. The RNC has no authority to override state law.

Redcard
01-20-2008, 05:48 PM
So your saying that there is no point in us getting Ron Paul delegates that if we don't win 5 states we are out? I think you are wrong, so does the campaign. In Utah specifically the only way Ron Paul will have delegates is in a brokered convention after the first round (Based on a Romney Win). The cmapiagn has advised us here that getting delegates is 10x more important then the primary. I personally will be running for delegate, unless what you are trying to say is thats pointless :rolleyes:

I'm not saying that.

Rule 40 of the convention says that.

www.gop.com .

Read it yourself.

Bradley in DC
01-20-2008, 05:53 PM
There are no "rules" really.

There absolutely ARE rules, really.

State election law governs if and under what conditions delegates are bound and how those delegates are chosen (primary or caucus, winner-take-all or proportional, etc.). In addition, the RNC by-laws govern the convention.

http://www.gop.com/About/AboutRead.aspx?Guid=a4cc4fcb-6043-4af2-860a-41ae912a2c42

http://www.gop.com/images/2008_Call_FINAL.pdf

http://www.gop.com/images/Press_State_Summaries.pdf