Why Do Black Politicians Focus ON Race and Avoid the 800 Pound Gorilla

[michaelwise]

The unemployment rate for Black Americans is 10.5%. Why then did we need to import cheep illegal alien labor from south of the boarder, to do all the good paying construction jobs in the last 5 years? Are these not jobs that Black Americans might have wanted to do? Can you think of other good paying jobs that were taken away from Black Americans, and given to cheep illegal alien workers?

Why are Black Politicians afraid to talk about this?

[Sematary]

The unemployment rate for Black Americans is 10.5%. Why then did we need to import cheep illegal alien labor from south of the boarder, to do all the good paying construction jobs in the last 5 years? Are these not jobs that Black Americans might have wanted to do? Can you think of other good paying jobs that were taken away from Black Americans, and given to cheep illegal alien workers?

Why are Black Politicians afraid to talk about this?

Um, because the employers can pay less than minimum wage to illegals where they would have to pay legal black workers much higher wages? Just a thought.

[DeadheadForPaul]

Do you have a source for that statistic? I've just never heard a number for A-A unemployment so I dont know

As for why we need illegal immigrant workers filling jobs while A-A have large unemployment numbers: The illegal immigrants are willing to work for less, and I'm also willing to bet they are more productive than any other group of people. They want to work hard so they can send the money back to Mexico.

[michaelwise]

Um, because the employers can pay less than minimum wage to illegals where they would have to pay legal black workers much higher wages? Just a thought.

Could it be that Black Americans are not as skilled as illegals at doing these jobs?

[michaelwise]

Do you have a source for that statistic? I've just never heard a number for A-A unemployment so I dont know

As for why we need illegal immigrant workers filling jobs while A-A have large unemployment numbers: The illegal immigrants are willing to work for less, and I'm also willing to bet they are more productive than any other group of people. They want to work hard so they can send the money back to Mexico.

Yes, during the last Senate banking hearing, which I watched, A congressman sited this statistic.

[Sematary]

Could it be that Black Americans are not as skilled as illegals at doing these jobs?


No

[DeadheadForPaul]

Could it be that Black Americans are not as skilled as illegals at doing these jobs?

No. There is really no skill involved in the low level jobs that they are "taking". An employer looks for cost and productivity of workers. They can pay illegal immigrants under the table for less than the minimum wage, and they know that the illegal immigrants will work harder

[LibertyEagle]

Could it be that Black Americans are not as skilled as illegals at doing these jobs?

Huh? Why would you say this?

It's not just African-Americans who are unemployed and would like the opportunity for a construction job. There are a lot of whites too and everything in between.

Please, let's not segment people like this. We're all Americans.

[michaelwise]

No. There is really no skill involved in the low level jobs that they are "taking". An employer looks for cost and productivity of workers. They can pay illegal immigrants under the table for less than the minimum wage, and they know that the illegal immigrants will work harder

The imoportation of illegel labor, drives down the wages. Also look at the meat packing industry.

Why do people focus on the excuse that Americans don't break their backs and balls enough, as an excuse not to hire them? Are we all that brainwashed?

[michaelwise]

Huh? Why would you say this?

It's not just African-Americans who are unemployed and would like the opportunity for a construction job. There are a lot of whites too and everything in between.

Please, let's not segment people like this. We're all Americans.

That's my point. We are all Americans. So why are the A-A politicians not addressing this issue. It seams like an obvious issue to me.

[Dave Wood]

One thing that is desperately missing in our schools now is VOCATIONAL TRAINING

Skilled trades, allow a person to grow and become the best in a field. It also gives them more opportunity to start a business.

Remember apprenticeship, where did it go?

The schools are failing kids in an awful way.

Not all children are interested in following the herd in to college and on to a 9-5 robot job for the rest of their lives.

They have to be taught that there are other options and good ones at that.

Being book smart is not the same as having a skill that you can put to use and serve people who truly need what you have. It gives people pride.

I think A-As are left out in cold more so by schools in general because they are not being taught that you can be "cool" and RICH at the same time. My .02

[LibertyEagle]

The imoportation of illegel labor, drives down the wages. Also look at the meat packing industry.

Yes and they also don't have to pay for their health insurance or anything else.


Why do people focus on the excuse that Americans don't break their backs and balls enough, as an excuse not to hire them? Are we all that brainwashed?

No, that's why the American people raised hell about the Amnesty legislation. I think it's the old game of trying to repeat something over and over again, hoping that people will begin to believe it. This tactic has worked well in the past. The American people haven't bought it on this issue yet. Thankfully.

I like Acaifonet's suggestion over here to use their same game to our own advantage. Repetition works.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=9440&page=3

[MozoVote]

I think the 800 pound gorilla, is about coming to understand that quality education isn't really possible until the schools are safe and kids want to learn. The root problem is parents (or lack of them) instructing kids to not be disruptive, and to place a value on learning.

It doesn't matter how nice the building is when the kids are not interested, and when good teachers will not stay because they do not feel safe among the gang members.

[freelance]

Why are Black Politicians afraid to talk about this?

Could it be that these same black politicians are really gatekeepers and they're not supposed to be talking about it? Why also are these same politicians not talking about the Latin-on-black crime in LA and other areas? Could it be for the same reason? And, where are the Revrunds? Nowhere to be found!

[michaelwise]

I think the 800 pound gorilla, is about coming to understand that quality education isn't really possible until the schools are safe and kids want to learn. The root problem is parents (or lack of them) instructing kids to not be disruptive, and to place a value on learning.

It doesn't matter how nice the building is when the kids are not interested, and when good teachers will not stay because they do not feel safe among the gang members.

If you want to focus on education, that's fine. I want to focus on the older ones out on the street, and have to feed their families now.

[Dustancostine]

Um, because the employers can pay less than minimum wage to illegals where they would have to pay legal black workers much higher wages? Just a thought.


This has to be the greatest MYTH in the immigration debate. I live in Texas and we have a lot of illegal immigration. Especially in the agriculture and construction areas. And I will tell from personal experience (my wife is a legal resident from the Dominican Republic, but has many illegal friends as our small town of 1,400 only has so many spanish speaking people) that those working in the construction, agriculture and manufacturing jobs make way above minimum wage, most of them make $10-$15 / hr. The reason why they are hired are three fold:

1) Work ethic. Most illegal immigrants work their ass off because they a) want a better life and b) they know they can be sent home any time so they want to make as much as they can.

2) Skill level. They have been working these jobs previously in Mexico before and are very skilled. You can't teach someone how to be a cabinet maker, tile layer, mason, or trim over night.

3) Desire. These people want to work very badly and will do what ever job there is and will do what ever it takes and do not complain.

And I am not saying that the African American's aren't willing to work. They may have a 10% unemployment rate, but that means they have a 90% employment rate. Its the part of that 10% (there is always going to be some natural unemployment) that is unwilling to work.

For example, here in Bismarck, ND (where I have just opened a business) there is a labor shortage for regular paying jobs at places such as Wal-Mart, Home Depot, and Sams Club. You don't see a lot of unemployed African American's moving from inner Detroit to get these jobs, but you do see a lot of Hispanics (legal or illegal I have no idea) moving here for these jobs.

THIS IS AMERICA, IF YOU WANT A JOB GO GET IT, IT IS NOT GOING TO GET YOU!!!!!!!!!

[LibertyEagle]

Could it be that these same black politicians are really gatekeepers and they're not supposed to be talking about it? Why also are these same politicians not talking about the Latin-on-black crime in LA and other areas? Could it be for the same reason? And, where are the Revrunds? Nowhere to be found!

Yup. The African-Americans I have talked to can't stand Sharpton and Jesse. Yet, they're paraded on TV as representing all African-Americans.

I agree, I haven't heard one peep out of them about the illegal aliens beating the hell out of black Americans in LA. I can't believe we're putting up with this illegal alien crap. I really can't.

[LastoftheMohicans]

White, Black and Latino politicians care about one thing: power and the financial advantages that come with it.

[michaelwise]

This has to be the greatest MYTH in the immigration debate. I live in Texas and we have a lot of illegal immigration. Especially in the agriculture and construction areas. And I will tell from personal experience (my wife is a legal resident from the Dominican Republic, but has many illegal friends as our small town of 1,400 only has so many spanish speaking people) that those working in the construction, agriculture and manufacturing jobs make way above minimum wage, most of them make $10-$15 / hr. The reason why they are hired are three fold:

1) Work ethic. Most illegal immigrants work their ass off because they a) want a better life and b) they know they can be sent home any time so they want to make as much as they can.

2) Skill level. They have been working these jobs previously in Mexico before and are very skilled. You can't teach someone how to be a cabinet maker, tile layer, mason, or trim over night.

3) Desire. These people want to work very badly and will do what ever job there is and will do what ever it takes and do not complain.

And I am not saying that the African American's aren't willing to work. They may have a 10% unemployment rate, but that means they have a 90% employment rate. Its the part of that 10% (there is always going to be some natural unemployment) that is unwilling to work.

For example, here in Bismarck, ND (where I have just opened a business) there is a labor shortage for regular paying jobs at places such as Wal-Mart, Home Depot, and Sams Club. You don't see a lot of unemployed African American's moving from inner Detroit to get these jobs, but you do see a lot of Hispanics (legal or illegal I have no idea) moving here for these jobs.

THIS IS AMERICA, IF YOU WANT A JOB GO GET IT, IT IS NOT GOING TO GET YOU!!!!!!!!!

Why do people focus on the excuse that Americans don't break their backs and balls enough, as an excuse not to hire them? Are we all that brainwashed?

I know lots of African Americans working two and three jobs.

[jdbrown]

I think it comes back to the entitlement mentality. There is a large group of lower income black people in America that grew up in a home with a single mother and a welfare check. Now they're more inclined to expect something from everyone else and feel like they deserve a constant income regardless of how much they work.

The equivalent hispanics growing up in Guatemala or Mexico lived in the slums and had no governmental assistance. They learned to fend for themselves and do what they needed to to provide for themselves and their families. They also braved their way past deserts, rivers, starvation, and coyotes and border patrol agents with guns just to find their way up here to work.

My grandparents own a landscaping business out in Texas with several lower class employees. They had employed several black men at one point and quickly decided they would never do so again. They would regularly show up to work late and as often as not were either drunk or high (extremely not good for working with heavy landscaping equipment). On the other hand, the Hispanic immigrants they've employed (even the ones that could barely speak English) have largely been very hard workers.

[Dustancostine]

Another example to shed some light on this is New Orleans. I travel to N.O. frequently. When I was there last month I could see the city has changed greatly. Mayor Nagin called N.O a chocolate city, but I would say it is about 30% chocolate and about 30% salsa now. Tons and tons of hispanics have moved for the construction jobs. There are more construction than people to work them, but almost all the hispanics that have moved there are employed but there is a huge amount of african americans that are still waiting for aid from FEMA. All they would have to do is pick up a hammer and go to work.

When I was there there was an article in the Picayune talking about how the black leaders of the city were trying to get the taco trucks banned. Instead of working to help their own community they were worried about taco trucks!!!!

[Dustancostine]

I know lots of African Americans working two and three jobs.

That is the point I was making. It is not the people who bust their balls that are complaining. It is those who aren't working that are complaining. If instead of putting their energy to complaining they went out and got a job everybody would be happy.

[Dustancostine]

I think it comes back to the entitlement mentality. There is a large group of lower income black people in America that grew up in a home with a single mother and a welfare check. Now they're more inclined to expect something from everyone else and feel like they deserve a constant income regardless of how much they work.

The equivalent hispanics growing up in Guatemala or Mexico lived in the slums and had no governmental assistance. They learned to fend for themselves and do what they needed to to provide for themselves and their families. They also braved their way past deserts, rivers, starvation, and coyotes and border patrol agents with guns just to find their way up here to work.

My grandparents own a landscaping business out in Texas with several lower class employees. They had employed several black men at one point and quickly decided they would never do so again. They would regularly show up to work late and as often as not were either drunk or high (extremely not good for working with heavy landscaping equipment). On the other hand, the Hispanic immigrants they've employed (even the ones that could barely speak English) have largely been very hard workers.

The husband of my acting agent in Baton Rouge also has a landscaping business and she related to me the exact same story.

And listen to this. My acting agent has to fly in Black talent from Tampa for auditions (Louisiana makes the third most Hollywood films behind CA, and NY) because the black actors in the area will not work on their skill, they just want to go to auditions. These are her words not mine.

[angelatc]

Yes, during the last Senate banking hearing, which I watched, A congressman sited this statistic.

Ditto. I wrote a long piece on this topic once and researched it. The unemployment rate is typically around 10.5%, and it's been at that level starting with the Clinton era. Maybe longer, that's as far back as I went.

And because the number only reflects, among other things people actively seeking work and not people incarcerated for drug crimes, the true level might be higher.

[Ron Paul Fan]

So why are Blacks lining up to support Obama or Hillary if they support amnesty which will take their jobs away? I know they usually support Democrats because of their welfare programs, but will the amnesty issue hurt them at all or has President Bush destroyed any hope that a Republican can gain votes from African Americans? It seems to me like the Democrats are trying to gain Hispanic votes, but are hurting their African American base, yet all we hear about on the news is Blacks love Hillary and Obama.

[Dustancostine]

? I know they usually support Democrats because of their welfare programs,

You hit the nail on the head.

[angelatc]

They support Democrats because Democrats have a vested interest in creating an entitlement based society.

I firmly believe that the unemployment rate in the black community would indeed fall if the wages were allowed to rise to the level they should be if the illegal workers were not here diluting the labor market.

As for the people who won't show up...the black community has a lot of issues, but pretending that white politicians are going to solve them is crazy. But if the jobs pay enough, the workers will come, and they will come back.

[FunkBuddha]

I would think the Drug War would be a key issue for inner city black people, but from my discussions with some of them on another forum it seems all they are interested in are reparations. In my opinion, reparations are a band-aid solution to the problem.

[Dustancostine]

They support Democrats because Democrats have a vested interest in creating an entitlement based society.

I firmly believe that the unemployment rate in the black community would indeed fall if the wages were allowed to rise to the level they should be if the illegal workers were not here diluting the labor market.

As for the people who won't show up...the black community has a lot of issues, but pretending that white politicians are going to solve them is crazy. But if the jobs pay enough, the workers will come, and they will come back.

I have to respectfully disagree. If those workers were not here, businesses would fold. An unskilled person cannot do a skilled persons job. (Some may say that construction work is unskilled but that is not the truth). They are not working for lack of work, this is plenty of work at good wages in this country. If the immigrants weren't here the unemployment would be exactly the same.

[Dustancostine]

The problem in the African American community is a cultural problem. This has been recognized by African American community leaders.

Unemployment is not the only statistic.

7 out of 10 African American Children are born out of wedlock (70%)

2 out of 3 African American pregnancies end in abortion (67%)

African American's have children at a generally younger age.

Education rates are very low.

Higher Education rates are very low.

Crime Rates are very high.

If you look at the African American's who are usually successful they do not come from this culture but are usually higher educated, come from a family with two parents.


By the way, these are predictor regardless of race for poverty. But with the entitlement system we have created is eroding the morals of our society.

By giving welfare and entitlements we are subsiding bad partner choices. Why should a father marry the mother of his child if the state will take care of the child?

By allowing abortion we are subsiding the lack of responsibility. Why should I worry about getting pregnant, I can just have an abortion. This leads also to lack of responsibility for taking care of the children that are born, "If I have no responsibility for the child I am carrying and can discard it when ever I please, why should I be responsible for the children I have, what is the difference."

By giving free education, people can get the believe that if they are not smart it is the government's fault.

This is the problem with socialization, lack of responsibility.

[angelatc]

I have to respectfully disagree. If those workers were not here, businesses would fold. An unskilled person cannot do a skilled persons job. (Some may say that construction work is unskilled but that is not the truth). They are not working for lack of work, this is plenty of work at good wages in this country. If the immigrants weren't here the unemployment would be exactly the same.

I am not saying we do not need immigrant labor. I am saying the government has an obligation to control it.

You are correct - if those workers were not here, those businesses would fold because they aren't running efficiently enough or charging enough to cover the wages that the market would demand. Waa. It's the market's way of thinning the herd. That fact that we still have a sector with unemployment rates in the double digits would indicate that there is still some wiggle room in the market.

The construction market is a prime example of business using illegal immigrants to keep wages unnaturally low.

With the exception of the past year or so, construction levels were at all time highs. Housing costs were also at all time highs. Construction companies were also making record profits.

Economics 101 says that when demand goes up, supply goes down, and price (of labor in this example) should go up.

Construction wages fell. And when I say wages, I mean the whole package, including benefits. It all fell. People like my brother in law who made $17 - $20 in the '80's market also had vacation packages and health insurance. Now he makes about $8 - $10 with no benefits.

People using illegal immigrant labor should be fined out of business as far as I'm concerned. If business needs skilled labor, then business can train the labor. I've seen it done in the white collar world, and there's certainly precedents for it in the blue collar world as well.

[michaelwise]

I have to respectfully disagree. If those workers were not here, businesses would fold. An unskilled person cannot do a skilled persons job. (Some may say that construction work is unskilled but that is not the truth). They are not working for lack of work, this is plenty of work at good wages in this country. If the immigrants weren't here the unemployment would be exactly the same.

I have to respectfully disagree. If the leaders in the A-A community would address this issue of unemployment, in relation to the illegal alien issue, they could encourage African Americans to take the better paying jobs. They should address the issue of employers paying substandard wages to illegal aliens. I guess they are just a bunch of yellow bellied cowards on this issue.

[DeadheadForPaul]

We need immigrant workers hence why I support temporary guest worker program.

[MozoVote]

The flood of H1B visas that Congress authorized in 2000, sure did wonders for wages and employment in the US for techies. After experiencing the "blowback" from that, I'm pretty skeptical of the "we need workers, so let's let them come" argument. Congress always writes these rules pretty leniently and it's hard to send the "temporary" workers back.

If there is a shortage of workers, people will hear about the high wages available due to the shortage, and learn that new trade. It may take several months to a year, but the market *does* adjust.

[Dustancostine]

Michael and Angel,

Do you understand what you are saying when you say "substandard" wages? Whose standards? The Governments? The only standard should be the market's. If we take your scenario, get rid of the immigrants and raise wages to $17/hr plus vacation, no one will be better off. Housing will go through the roof, causing a snow ball down the economic chain, resulting in either higher unemployment or higher price of goods across the board. What is the point of higher wages if a gallon of milk cost $10. Economics is a science with natural laws that cannot be violated or controlled. That is why when the government interferes in the market it is disasterous.

First we need sound monetary policy. Second we need to end entitlements. And third we need an open market across the board (including labor). Then everyone who wants to prosper will have the opportunity.

[MozoVote]

Michael and Angel,
If we take your scenario, get rid of the immigrants and raise wages to $17/hr plus vacation, no one will be better off. Housing will go through the roof, causing a snow ball down the economic chain, resulting in either higher unemployment or higher price of goods across the board.

Nahhh.

Construction companies could have passed the savings they were encountering by hiring illegal labor on to their customers. Competition should have driven the cost of housing down. Instead we saw the greatest housing bubble ever and record profits.

So I don't think there is really that much connection between labor cost and home prices. Home prices are set more by supply/demand, available jobs for home buyers, and access to financing.

[Dustancostine]

The flood of H1B visas that Congress authorized in 2000, sure did wonders for wages and employment in the US for techies. After experiencing the "blowback" from that, I'm pretty skeptical of the "we need workers, so let's let them come" argument. Congress always writes these rules pretty leniently and it's hard to send the "temporary" workers back.

If there is a shortage of workers, people will hear about the high wages available due to the shortage, and learn that new trade. It may take several months to a year, but the market *does* adjust.

I understand what you are saying, but the overabundance of workers was not due to the flood of H1B visas, but due to the burst of the Tech bubble which had been overinflated with fiat dollars. Over half of those companies should have never been in business in the first place.

-Dustan

[kylejack]

This thread sucks.

[MozoVote]

This thread sucks.

I suspect it'll get stuffed into "Hot Topics" soon anyway. It's not RP related.

[Dustancostine]

Nahhh.

Construction companies could have passed the savings they were encountering by hiring illegal labor on to their customers. Competition should have driven the cost of housing down. Instead we saw the greatest housing bubble ever and record profits.

So I don't think there is really that much connection between labor cost and home prices. Home prices are set more by supply/demand, available jobs for home buyers, and access to financing.


Do you know why we have the largest housing bubble ever? It has nothing to do with labor, it has everything to do with MONETARY POLICY, the laws were relaxed to lending standards, the fed started printing money like crazy and the market was flooded with easy loans (no down, bad credit, interest only). Everyone had money to spend (More consumers than products) prices went up, now people started taking out equity loans (their house "went up in value" because of prices) and spent even more on housing. You are about to see the same thing with housing that we saw with technology in 2001 and it is not going to be the fault of immigrant labor but of monetary policy.

In a free market there are no booms and bust!!!!!!!!

[michaelwise]

Michael and Angel,

Do you understand what you are saying when you say "substandard" wages? Whose standards? The Governments? The only standard should be the market's. If we take your scenario, get rid of the immigrants and raise wages to $17/hr plus vacation, no one will be better off. Housing will go through the roof, causing a snow ball down the economic chain, resulting in either higher unemployment or higher price of goods across the board. What is the point of higher wages if a gallon of milk cost $10. Economics is a science with natural laws that cannot be violated or controlled. That is why when the government interferes in the market it is disasterous.

First we need sound monetary policy. Second we need to end entitlements. And third we need an open market across the board (including labor). Then everyone who wants to prosper will have the opportunity.

By substandard wages I mean, wages in this country that have been depressed by the introduction of millions of illegal alien workers. I don't care what the market wages become after a crackdown on illegal alien employment, because the market will take care of itself. What part of illegal do people not understand.

[MozoVote]

In a free market there are no booms and bust!!!!!!!!

There was no FED during The Tulip bubble and South Seas bubbles. ;) Come on, booms and busts happen as part of the dynamic of capitalism and trade, period. (What governments do is make them last longer, both upside and downside).

[Lord Xar]

No. There is really no skill involved in the low level jobs that they are "taking". An employer looks for cost and productivity of workers. They can pay illegal immigrants under the table for less than the minimum wage, and they know that the illegal immigrants will work harder

There have been various examples but a popular one is that a "poultry plant' was raided, some very big busines company... anyways, ALL the workers were illegals... they deported all of them, and this company hired half blacks to fill the positions - uppted the pay an additional $2 per hour and supplied housing and bammmmmm... everything solved and jobs were TAKEN BY AMERICANS.

The thing is this... Illegals take jobs that employers offer at slave labour... BUT by doing this, they undercut mostly blacks for these jobs. So, by flooding the market with cheap labour, blacks loose the most and in towns that have big manufactoring and mostly white population, then its whites that are hurt.

That is a fact... big businesses are GREEDY!!!! Why pay an american $10/hr when they can pay an illegal $6/hr....

Its all a scam..

[Dustancostine]

There was no FED during The Tulip bubble and South Seas bubbles. ;) Come on, booms and busts happen as part of the dynamic of capitalism and trade, period. (What governments do is make them last longer, both upside and downside).

They may have not had the fed but they had the Dutch Parliament:

From wikipedia.com

A 2002 paper by UCLA's Earl A. Thompson and Jonathan Treussard, "The Tulipmania: Fact or Artifact?", provides an alternate explanation for Dutch tulip mania: that it was not caused by irrational speculation, but rather by a Dutch parliamentary decree (originally sponsored by Dutch investors made skittish by the Thirty Years' War then in progress) that made the purchase of tulip-bulb "futures contracts" a nearly risk-free proposition:

...both the famous popular discussion of Mackay and the famous academic discussion of Posthumus, 1929, point out a highly peculiar part of this episode. In particular, they tell us that, on February 24, 1637, the self-regulating guild of Dutch florists, in a decision that was later ratified by the Dutch Parliament, announced that all futures contracts written after November 30, 1636 and before the re-opening of the cash market in the early Spring, were to be to [sic] interpreted as option contracts. They did this by simply relieving the futures buyers of the obligation to buy the future tulips, forcing them merely to compensate the sellers with a small fixed percentage of the contract price.

--Dustan

[MozoVote]

17th Century derivatives. Lovely. I'm glad we learn from history. :rolleyes:

[Dustancostine]

There was no FED during The Tulip bubble and South Seas bubbles. ;) Come on, booms and busts happen as part of the dynamic of capitalism and trade, period. (What governments do is make them last longer, both upside and downside).

Oh look the South Sea Trading company had a monopoly on the trade in South America granted by Spain. No wonder there was speculation.

From Wikipedia:

The South Sea Company (1711 – c1850s) was an English company granted a monopoly to trade with South America under a treaty with Spain. Following the The South Sea Company Act 1720, it became better known for the "South Sea Bubble", an economic bubble that occurred through overheated speculation in the company shares. The stock price collapsed after reaching a peak in September 1720.

There are no economic booms and bust in a Free Market!!!!!!

[Brian4Liberty]

Why then did we need to import cheep illegal alien labor from south of the border, to do all the good paying construction jobs in the last 5 years? Are these not jobs that -any- Americans might have wanted to do? Can you think of other good paying jobs that were taken away from -any- Americans, and given to cheep illegal alien workers?

Why are -most- Politicians afraid to talk about this?

Simple supply and demand, my friend. The corporate/industrial/government complex (establishment) always wants a larger supply of laborers, to lower wages. The politicians cater to that. They can dress it up any way they want, but in the end, they do what the establishment tells them, and they want a larger labor pool to compete with you.

On the other hand, the establishment loves their own monopolies. When it comes to their business, they want to end competition, and control supplies. Our government helps them create monopolies via biased legislation, usually written by the monopolies. Government interference of this type is bad for all Americans, with the exception of the powerful elite. This is exactly the problem with government interference in markets. It usually ends up being nothing more than a hidden way to eliminate competition, and destroy the free competitive markets.

Where our government does need to act in the market is to advocate competition, and actually enforce anti-trust and anti-collusion laws. We need a trust-buster like Theodore Roosevelt.

What I mean:

- Hundreds of independent doctors in your area, only taking cash, would be far better for us than a single national HMO health care insurance monopoly. Ask Dr. Paul.

- Hundreds of independent gasoline refineries in competition would be far better than the collusion of the Exxon/Mobil/Chevron/BP/etc. oligopoly, which controls gasoline from oil barrel to your gas tank.


Our wages have decreased while everything else has inflated. And as we all know, inflation eats away at your wages (which are stagnant or lowering), reducing your real spending power, and taking money from you to redistribute it to others.

Alan Greenspan and the Federal Reserve have been working the system for years. Almost everything has been going up in price, which is offset by lowering wages. Then they can say we have almost 0% inflation. Greenspan hides behind pseudo-libertarian ideals, at the same time he works the system to the detriment of the average American.

Everything is right on track, on the road to serfdom...

[fluoridatedbrainsoup]

One thing that is desperately missing in our schools now is VOCATIONAL TRAINING

Skilled trades, allow a person to grow and become the best in a field. It also gives them more opportunity to start a business.

Remember apprenticeship, where did it go?

The schools are failing kids in an awful way.

Not all children are interested in following the herd in to college and on to a 9-5 robot job for the rest of their lives.

They have to be taught that there are other options and good ones at that.

Being book smart is not the same as having a skill that you can put to use and serve people who truly need what you have. It gives people pride.

I think A-As are left out in cold more so by schools in general because they are not being taught that you can be "cool" and RICH at the same time. My .02

Where has craftsmanship gone? Freedom of contract? Teachers with first amendment rights? Did government take them?
The answer is ALWAYS government.
Dave is right about skills. Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance comes to mind

[freelance]

Why do people focus on the excuse that Americans don't break their backs and balls enough, as an excuse not to hire them? Are we all that brainwashed?

This is the BIG lie. They pushed the Japanese model on us back in the 80s. We're still working those outrageously long hours (without anything to show for them) decades after the Japanese have found some balance.

I know many salaried employees who never work less than a 60-hour week, and often an 80-hour week just to keep their jobs. They wouldn't think of leaving at 5:00 p.m. for fear they'd be downsized/rightsized/outsourced/whatever the term du jour is.

[Akus]

Why Do Black Politicians Focus ON Race and Avoid the 800 Pound Gorilla

Because blaming others for their problems generates votes. Blaming themselves doesn't.

[wbbgjr]

nm

[MozoVote]

I have to disagree with you here. The Housing Bubble was created by the Fed with easy credit that allowed people to be able to get a loan they couldn't pay back, and of course by the real estate/media/politicians. All those people had a hand in spreading the lies that Housing is the best investment and no risk at all and that the economy is doing great.

All of that is wrapped up in the tag of my statement "access to financing" - so I don't disagree with your summary of the housing bubble. I could add a few more items too, but of course it's all been debated enough times on the housing blogs. :cool:

My real point here, is that houses sell for what the market will bear. The builder's profit margin and his labor costs don't have much to do with it.

[kylejack]

The most prominent black politician in this country right now is not a race-baiter, so I think this whole thread is out of line. You want to throw Sharpton, Farrakahn, Jackson at me? Who cares? They're not elected officials. They can do whatever nonsense they want to do.

[MozoVote]

Is Farrakahn still spouting that the Nation of Islam should be given 3 states to colonize? I swear, stuff like that sounds just as loony as the 9/11 inside job claims.

[kylejack]

Probably. He's a nut. He's crazy in the coconut. I don't Google him, and I don't see him in the news much, so I couldn't really tell you.

[michaelwise]

The most prominent black politician in this country right now is not a race-baiter, so I think this whole thread is out of line. You want to throw Sharpton, Farrakahn, Jackson at me? Who cares? They're not elected officials. They can do whatever nonsense they want to do.

I brought the race issue in because, The big political story today was about Obama and Hillary fighting on the race issue. Why do they even have to discuss the race issue in this country any more. Because it distracts people from the real issues that have a direct affect on people.

How about talking about the world record foreclosures happening in this country today. How about talking about the 10.5% unemployment rate among A-A, and why so many jobs are going to illegal aliens, when they can be going to black Americans.

[Dustancostine]

I still don't understand the unemployment argument. Even if you concede the argument about the effect of wages, how does having immigrants here cost A-A jobs?

[angelatc]

Michael and Angel,

Do you understand what you are saying when you say "substandard" wages? Whose standards? The Governments? The only standard should be the market's. If we take your scenario, get rid of the immigrants and raise wages to $17/hr plus vacation, no one will be better off.ityity.

Except the million or so people employed in the construction industry, you mean. And their families.

I'm not saying anybody should raise wages - I am saying that if corporate america wasn't diluting the labor pool with Mexicans then wages would rise.

There's no real market reason for the wages to have been halved except for the massive influx of illegal labor.

In the '80's those workers were making twice as much as they are now, so you cannot convince me that if the illegals were removed from the equation that the whole country would go bankrupt.

Ditto on the tech visas! I worked with IT people who had Masters Degrees, but they were answering telephone questions in User Support. Don't tell me we need more of them.

Again, demand rose, so supply should have fallen and prices should have risen. It didn't. People that sector are the same people now crying that the government should give them health care, because the government has underminded their ability to demand it as a condition of employment because of the 11 - 15 illegal workers here.

Those black guys working 2-3 job would be able to make ends meet with only one. Parents could afford again to have one parent stay home.

But sadly, corporate Americas profits wouldn't continue to set record after record, so it will never happen.

[michaelwise]

I still don't understand the unemployment argument. Even if you concede the argument about the effect of wages, how does having immigrants here cost A-A jobs?

Take a look at New Orleans and see who is getting the construction job, after Katrina.

[kylejack]

I brought the race issue in because, The big political story today was about Obama and Hillary fighting on the race issue. Why do they even have to discuss the race issue in this country any more. Because it distracts people from the real issues that have a direct affect on people.
Obviously they're both vying for black votes, but what is this "fighting on the race issue" bit? Could you provide a link?

[angelatc]

I still don't understand the unemployment argument. Even if you concede the argument about the effect of wages, how does having immigrants here cost A-A jobs?

For me, it comes down to the fact if you pay a decent wage then people will come to work. Having immigrants here keeps the wages so low that the black community doesn't want those jobs.

And, having seen the threads above, I believe there's a degree of racism still apparent in the system. You said yourself that your aunt would rather hire lillegal latinos than blacks. As long as we have a 10% unemployment rate (and possibly 50% jobless rate by black males) in the black community, I do not think she should be able to get that choice.

Edited to add: right before the latest influx of Mexicans began, the UPS hub in Indianapolis was running buses into the inner city to provide transportation to workers. Don't tell me that business can't find a way to attract black workers, because I will not believe it.

[Dustancostine]

Take a look at New Orleans and see who is getting the construction job, after Katrina.

I go to New Orleans twice a month, see my post above. I think it illustrates the problem perfectly. There is an overabundance of work in New Orleans right now. Anyone with a hammer can get a job. But there are still a tremendous amount of A-A waiting for a FEMA check or hustling the streets instead of getting jobs, on the other hand Mexican's are flooding in and working, this is not affecting the price of labor nor is it causing A-A to not get a job. But somehow they are still unemployed.


And Angel I will just have to agree to disagree with you.

--Dustan

[kylejack]

For me, it comes down to the fact if you pay a decent wage then people will come to work. Having immigrants here keeps the wages so low that the black community doesn't want those jobs.

And, having seen the threads above, I believe there's a degree of racism still apparent in the system. You said yourself that your aunt would rather hire lillegal latinos than blacks. As long as we have a 10% unemployment rate (and possibly 50% jobless rate by black males) in the black community, I do not think she should be able to get that choice.
Then you're not really a believer in free market ideals. If she's had experiences that lead her to believe immigrants work harder, she should have the right to hire them. Your statements about immigrants depressing wages could be rewound about 160 years to the waves of immigration from Ireland and China. They had anti-Irish gangs in New York, and anti-Chinese leagues in the West. Ultimately, these immigrants made our country a better place, even if there was a temporary depression of wages. Affordable labor has always driven our economic engine.

[Dustancostine]

And, having seen the threads above, I believe there's a degree of racism still apparent in the system. You said yourself that your aunt would rather hire lillegal latinos than blacks. As long as we have a 10% unemployment rate (and possibly 50% jobless rate by black males) in the black community, I do not think she should be able to get that choice.

I have no idea what you are talking about if this is directed at me. I have made no post what so ever referencing an aunt or anyone hiring illegal aliens.




Edited to add: right before the latest influx of Mexicans began, the UPS hub in Indianapolis was running buses into the inner city to provide transportation to workers. Don't tell me that business can't find a way to attract black workers, because I will not believe it.

Once again another problem. Why don't the people who want jobs move closer to UPS. Why does UPS have to transport them? (If they want to it is not a problem with me, but you are making it like they should)

This whole problem with wages is being caused by our Monetary Policy and has little to do with immigration.

[michaelwise]

Obviously they're both vying for black votes, but what is this "fighting on the race issue" bit? Could you provide a link?

I saw it on CNN this morning, but I couldn't stomach listing to what it was about.

[michaelwise]

Then you're not really a believer in free market ideals. If she's had experiences that lead her to believe immigrants work harder, she should have the right to hire them. Your statements about immigrants depressing wages could be rewound about 160 years to the waves of immigration from Ireland and China. They had anti-Irish gangs in New York, and anti-Chinese leagues in the West. Ultimately, these immigrants made our country a better place, even if there was a temporary depression of wages. Affordable labor has always driven our economic engine.

Again I come back to the word illegal. What is it about the word illegal do you not understand? I completely and fully welcome all the legal immigrants into this country.

[BenIsForRon]

This thread make me nauseous.

Does anybody actually think that Mexicans working 16 hour days 7 days a week below minimum wage is fair? We are allowing them to come into our country and essentially be our SLAVES! If it wasn't for mexican labor in the farms Dustancostine wouldn't have the ability to eat that $1 hungryman TV dinner every night while he's watching his WWF.

If we seal our borders and stop subsidizing businesses that export jobs to china and hire illegal workers here, we won't have an unemployment problem, and eventually we wouldn't need a minimum wage or welfare. That is a free market... what we have now is a middle class served by an underclass of mexicans and chinese, all allowed by government that subsidizes corporations that employ this behavior.

[kylejack]

Again I come back to the word illegal. What is it about the word illegal do you not understand? I completely and fully welcome all the legal immigrants into this country.
Its virtually impossible to immigrate to this country from Mexico unless you have family here, or you're like a doctor or some other highly-skilled profession, so when you say you "completely and fully welcome all the legal immigrants into this country" does that mean that you would advocate a softening of the immigration laws to make immigration easier and more rational? Because if so, that's great.

[Dustancostine]

Again I come back to the word illegal. What is it about the word illegal do you not understand? I completely and fully welcome all the legal immigrants into this country.

BTW Michael as far as securing our borders and not allowing illegal immigration, I agree with you based on sovereignty and security issues. I believe the law should be followed.

[kylejack]

This thread make me nauseous.

Does anybody actually think that Mexicans working 16 hour days 7 days a week below minimum wage is fair? We are allowing them to come into our country and essentially be our SLAVES! If it wasn't for mexican labor in the farms Dustancostine wouldn't have the ability to eat that $1 hungryman TV dinner every night while he's watching his WWF.

If we seal our borders and stop subsidizing businesses that export jobs to china and hire illegal workers here, we won't have an unemployment problem, and eventually we wouldn't need a minimum wage or welfare. That is a free market... what we have now is a middle class served by an underclass of mexicans and chinese, all allowed by government that subsidizes corporations that employ this behavior.

Sure, offering money for labor is fair. If Mexicans don't like it, they're not required to come work for us. Forcing someone to labor was slavery, this is not. Of course, they should be coming here legally, which is why I'm advocating a softening of the immigration laws to allow them to come.

[BenIsForRon]

^We are barley giving them living wages though. We need to enforce our borders and allow legal immigration, but not so much that corporations can hire so many for so cheap that we have an underclass. This takes away jobs from Americans, and destabilizes our economy. You see, what's happening with this housing bubble burst is that we are going to have tons of unemployed Americans as well as illegal aliens. At some point they're going to have to go back to their country because the jobs just won't be here, but not until our economy is left in shambles.

[Dustancostine]

Does anybody actually think that Mexicans working 16 hour days 7 days a week below minimum wage is fair?

Where is this happening?




If it wasn't for mexican labor in the farms Dustancostine wouldn't have the ability to eat that $1 hungryman TV dinner every night while he's watching his WWF.


This is VERY INSULTING. I have not ever attacked anyone personally on this message board or any other message board. You do not know me. You clearly cannot debate ideas. I am awaiting an apology and retraction!!!!!:mad:









If we seal our borders and stop subsidizing businesses that export jobs to china and hire illegal workers here, we won't have an unemployment problem, and eventually we wouldn't need a minimum wage or welfare. That is a free market... what we have now is a middle class served by an underclass of mexicans and chinese, all allowed by government that subsidizes corporations that employ this behavior.

We should not subsidize any businesses, nor should we subsidize people either. And do you research a true free market includes free movement of labor.

[michaelwise]

Its virtually impossible to immigrate to this country from Mexico unless you have family here, or you're like a doctor or some other highly-skilled profession, so when you say you "completely and fully welcome all the legal immigrants into this country" does that mean that you would advocate a softening of the immigration laws to make immigration easier and more rational? Because if so, that's great.


We don't need to soften any laws. We just need to enforce current laws. Why Don't you do a little research an find out how many immigrants we allow legally every year into this country. The number will astound you. It's about 3 million on visas and everything else.

[angelatc]

Sure, offering money for labor is fair. If Mexicans don't like it, they're not required to come work for us. Forcing someone to labor was slavery, this is not. Of course, they should be coming here legally, which is why I'm advocating a softening of the immigration laws to allow them to come.

As much as 65% of the world's population lives in conditions are are substanbdard to ours, and about 45% live below Mexican standards.

Do we let them all in?

[BenIsForRon]

Free speech baby... I've been insulted by many of your statements in this thread.

With the situation we are at now in our country, we can allow free labor across the borders, because corporations will pay the workers just enough to eat and stay alive. That is SLAVERY. In the 1800's we gave blacks just enough food and shelter to keep working for us. Yes they didn't have the option to quit, but the mexicans basically don't either, because of agreements like NAFTA they have no way to make a life for themselves, so they have to come here and become part of the Big Agriculture or housing industries. You will change your tune about immigration as more and more mexicans try to come into this country as their economy tanks in the coming years.

[angelatc]

We should not subsidize any businesses, nor should we subsidize people either. And do you research a true free market includes free movement of labor.

I don't want a free market. I want a fair market.

[kylejack]

We don't need to soften any laws. We just need to enforce current laws. Why Don't you do a little research an find out how many immigrants we allow legally every year into this country. The number will astound you. It's about 3 million on visas and everything else.
Yes, but we use discriminatory practices, favoring some countries over others.

[kylejack]

I don't want a free market. I want a fair market.

F that S.

[kylejack]

As much as 65% of the world's population lives in conditions are are substanbdard to ours, and about 45% live below Mexican standards.

Do we let them all in?
Sure, they can come here and work and raise their standard of living if they wish.

[BenIsForRon]

^wow, were do we get all the money to pay all these people? It would just severely lower everyones standard of living. Common sense.

[michaelwise]

Sure, they can come here and work and raise their standard of living if they wish.

Now that the housing bubble has completely burst, and I thank God that it has, and many of the construction jobs are going away, What is left for the legal Americans in the construction trades, if the have to compete with the illegals.

[Dustancostine]

Free speech baby... I've been insulted by many of your statements in this thread.



This has nothing to do with free speech. I never said you couldn't say it. It has to do with decency, which you apparently lack. The fact that you turn a philosophical/political debate into a personal slur with no basis in fact (I don't sit on my couch that often as I am way to busy, I have never eaten a hungryman, nor do I watch WWE) is cowardly. If you would have said that you became emotional and didn't mean it, that would have been fine because I understand such things, but you are even to cowardly to admit that. You sir are either a coward or a troll, and I will have nothing else to do with you.

--Dustan

[kylejack]

Now that the housing bubble has completely burst, and I thank God that it has, and many of the construction jobs are going away, What is left for the legal Americans in the construction trades, if the have to compete with the illegals.
Well, we should be enforcing our laws, but the laws need to be changed to make legal immigration more rational and prompt. Then they won't have to compete with illegals.

[kylejack]

^wow, were do we get all the money to pay all these people?

Uh, wherever we want. I work in a technical field and if I want to hire a legal immigrant from Mexico or wherever else to mow my lawn and trim my hedges, that's my business. If somebody doesn't want to hire him, they're free to that opinion too.


It would just severely lower everyones standard of living.
Spending less money on lawncare or construction or anything else frees up more money that I can use on other things, thus raising my standard of living, so no, it would not lower everyone's standard of living.

[BenIsForRon]

Ok, kylejack, it only increases your standard of living if you stay above them in the economic ladder. If there are too many immigrants, the whole economic infrastructure will become strained as there won't be enough jobs to go around, which will dilute the job market. Most jobs will pay the bare minimum for their workers and there will be many unemployed, even if not at first. That greatly threatens security. That would take jobs away from millions of americans, and you wouldn't have any customers to buy your products, and viola! You are now poor as well.

[kylejack]

Ok, kylejack, it only increases your standard of living if you stay above them in the economic ladder. If there are too many immigrants, the whole economic infrastructure will become strained as there won't be enough jobs to go around, which will dilute the job market. Most jobs will pay the bare minimum for their workers and there will be many unemployed, even if not at first. That greatly threatens security. That would take jobs away from millions of americans, and you wouldn't have any customers to buy your products, and viola! You are now poor as well.

Even poor people benefit from cheap produce, cheap goods and services. It makes no difference where you are on the scale, cheaper goods will benefit you.

[BenIsForRon]

We don't have infinite resources though, we have a finite amount of farmland, and a finite amount of oil to ship goods and produce. Supply of labor greatly exceeds demand for work, and industry collapses.

[kylejack]

We don't have infinite resources though, we have a finite amount of farmland, and a finite amount of oil to ship goods and produce. Supply of labor greatly exceeds demand for work, and industry collapses.
If jobs aren't available, people aren't going to keep coming. These things balance themselves naturally. This happens even within the United States. An area faces a shortage of labor, people move to the area, and the shortage is abated. People stop coming and go to other areas. There is a very natural breathing of labor in the economy. New Orleans had a severe shortage of people to work on reconstruction after Katrina, and workers flocked to it.

[BenIsForRon]

I'm not saying you're not right in theory. In a perfect world we would open our borders and allow the market to make all the necessary adjustments. I'm talking about America in its current state. If we opened our borders and allowed everyone one who wants to work here to work here, the economy would totally collapse and we'd be in another Great Depression. The immigrants would not be able to see the consequences of their actions ahead of time. So controlling the amount of immigrants is our way of trying to accomplish the same goal with out destabilizing the economy.

[SeanEdwards]

Uncontrolled growth has a name. It's called cancer.

[MozoVote]

I'm not saying you're not right in theory. In a perfect world we would open our borders and allow the market to make all the necessary adjustments. If we opened our borders and allowed everyone one who wants to work here to work here, the economy would totally collapse and we'd be in another Great Depression.

I think that's probably true. Much of the world lives in miserable poverty. Even during what feels like a "depression" to us, people would still come if we had an open border policy. Just the ability to get away from thuggish governemnts and share a dry apartment with a bunch of other immigrants is good enough.

That's why I feel like reasonable restrictions on immigration are appropriate. People need to pressure their own governments for reform. We can't police the world, and we should not offer to shoulder all it's burdens.

[michaelwise]

I'm still waiting for a reply to the second part of my question.

Can you think of other good paying jobs that were taken away from Black Americans, and given to cheep illegal alien workers?

[kylejack]

I think many of you need to be told a few more times by Ron that freedom works. It really does!

[kylejack]

Uncontrolled growth has a name. It's called cancer.
The market controls growth of the labor supply.

[micahnelson]

Ron Paul said in his google interview that he wouldnt have a problem with the immigration if we had free markets.

We would be able to absorb workers, we would need them as business grew and expanded.

The problem is our welfare system means that taxpayers take a hit for those who don't come here to work. Abolish the taxpayer funded safety net and only those wanting to work will come here.

[michaelwise]

The market controls growth of the labor supply.

Again, back to The word illegal. What part of the word Illegal do you not understand? Enforce the fucking immigration laws first. Then we can talk about making minor changes. Oh, here's a change I would like to see. HR4437.

[kylejack]

Again, back to The word illegal. What part of the word Illegal do you not understand? Enforce the fucking immigration laws first. Then we can talk about making minor changes. Oh, here's a change I would like to see. HR4437.
I have already stated that I wish for the immigration laws to be enforced. I also want the rules to be made more rational and realistic, and to allow unrestricted immigration for anyone willing to follow the process, straining out criminals and diseased people.

[kylejack]

Ron Paul said in his google interview that he wouldnt have a problem with the immigration if we had free markets.

We would be able to absorb workers, we would need them as business grew and expanded.

The problem is our welfare system means that taxpayers take a hit for those who don't come here to work. Abolish the taxpayer funded safety net and only those wanting to work will come here.
Yes, that's right, we can have mostly unrestricted immigration when we get rid of the welfare state.

[michaelwise]

I have already stated that I wish for the immigration laws to be enforced. I also want the rules to be made more rational and realistic, and to allow unrestricted immigration for anyone willing to follow the process, straining out criminals and diseased people.

But until that can happen, we must first abide be the current laws.

[kylejack]

But until that can happen, we must first abide be the current laws.
Uh, we will. And when Ron's elected we'll get rid of the welfare state and loosen the immigration laws. Did you think I was going to single-handedly change the laws right now? Don't worry, I'll wait before exercising my dictatorial powers. :cool:

[Dustancostine]

I'm still waiting for a reply to the second part of my question.

Can you think of other good paying jobs that were taken away from Black Americans, and given to cheep illegal alien workers?

Am not sure if you have listed this area yet, but one place that I have seen a shift from A-A workers to hispanic workers (not sure if legal or illegal) is in the food service area (McDonalds, Wendy's, etc.)

[michaelwise]

Uh, we will. And when Ron's elected we'll get rid of the welfare state and loosen the immigration laws. Did you think I was going to single-handedly change the laws right now? Don't worry, I'll wait before exercising my dictatorial powers. :cool:

Very well then. What do you think of this question for the Youtube debate? After you are Inaugurated as President, how long will it take for you to build a boarder fence and secure the boarder.

[michaelwise]

Am not sure if you have listed this area yet, but one place that I have seen a shift from A-A workers to hispanic workers (not sure if legal or illegal) is in the food service area (McDonalds, Wendy's, etc.)

Yes, but those jobs are for high school kids, and the lowest of skilled people. I'm talking about once good paying jobs, like in some other manufacturing areas.

[Capitalism]

Jesus! "Fair wages," "slave wages," "minumum wages," "corporate greed," "stop immigration." As Mises told the Mont Pelerin Society, "you're all a bunch of socialists!" This sounds more like the message board of the AFL-CIO, which will endorse the Democratic candidate.

[Capitalism]

Very well then. What do you think of this question for the Youtube debate? After you are Inaugurated as President, how long will it take for you to build a boarder fence and secure the boarder.

Well I think you're going to have to be more specific. You can secure a boarder and still allow a lot more peaceful, honest people cross the border to work for people who want to hire them. Perhaps you should ask Ron Paul if he will still want to continue to restrict the free movement of labor from other countries after the welfare state is dismantled, and if so, from all countries or from which specific ones.

[michaelwise]

Well I think you're going to have to be more specific. You can secure a boarder and still allow a lot more peaceful, honest people cross the border to work for people who want to hire them. Perhaps you should ask Ron Paul if he will still want to continue to restrict the free movement of labor from other countries after the welfare state is dismantled, and if so, from all countries or from which specific ones.

Are you new here capitalism? Welcome aboard. The laws of this land restrict the immigration inflow for a reason. The Taxpayers of this country are not capable of feeding the world, paying to send their children to our schools, and paying for their anchor babies at $10,000 a pop,

[Capitalism]

Are you new here capitalism? Welcome aboard. The laws of this land restrict the immigration inflow for a reason. The Taxpayers of this country are not capable of feeding the world, paying to send their children to our schools, and paying for their anchor babies at $10,000 a pop,

Oh yeah, we should get rid of all that stuff. Get rid of it for people born here too.

[kylejack]

Jesus! "Fair wages," "slave wages," "minumum wages," "corporate greed," "stop immigration." As Mises told the Mont Pelerin Society, "you're all a bunch of socialists!" This sounds more like the message board of the AFL-CIO, which will endorse the Democratic candidate.

AMEN. It seems like Ron Paul's campaign has attracted quite a few people who aren't terribly libertarian, and wouldn't agree at all with Mises. Maybe they'll be swayed. Big tent, yada yada.

[Capitalism]

The unemployment rate for Black Americans is 10.5%. Why then did we need to import cheep illegal alien labor from south of the boarder, to do all the good paying construction jobs in the last 5 years? Are these not jobs that Black Americans might have wanted to do? Can you think of other good paying jobs that were taken away from Black Americans, and given to cheep illegal alien workers?

Why are Black Politicians afraid to talk about this?

There are plenty of things politicians do to screw people of all races. Min. wages laws, taxes, licensing laws, HUD, import restrictions, etc. Walter Williams wrote two books, both out of print, that are quite relevant here. One was called The State Against Blacks, which focuses on how the US government screws blacks. The other was called South Africa's War Against Capitalism, which focused on how whites in South Africa, through their labor unions, crafted legislation helpful to the unions which then hurt blacks. I'd recommend checking them out if you can.

[michaelwise]

Oh yeah, we should get rid of all that stuff. Get rid of it for people born here too.

Ron Paul is specific on ending birthright citizenship.

[michaelwise]

There are plenty of things politicians do to screw people of all races. Min. wages laws, taxes, licensing laws, HUD, import restrictions, etc. Walter Williams wrote two books, both out of print, that are quite relevant here. One was called The State Against Blacks, which focuses on how the US government screws blacks. The other was called South Africa's War Against Capitalism, which focused on how whites in South Africa, through their labor unions, crafted legislation helpful to the unions which then hurt blacks. I'd recommend checking them out if you can.

So why does our current administration encourage the war against blacks, by allowing their jobs to be given to illegal aliens?

[kylejack]

So why does our current administration encourage the war against blacks, by allowing their jobs to be given to illegal aliens?

Because its beholden to corporate interests, but that doesn't mean free immigration is wrong.

[michaelwise]

Because its beholden to corporate interests, but that doesn't mean free immigration is wrong.

So, the corporations are to blame for the war against blacks.

[kylejack]

So, the corporations are to blame for the war against blacks.
Have you considered herbal tea? Or perhaps maybe a little von Mises, Hayek, or Walter Block?

[michaelwise]

Have you considered herbal tea? Or perhaps maybe a little von Mises, Hayek, or Walter Block?

Not really. I prefer Lou Dobbs.

[Capitalism]

Ron Paul is specific on ending birthright citizenship.

I mean get rid of that stuff (welfare, public schools, etc.) for people born here to parents born here. Why would I want to get rid of socialism for immigrants and not get rid of it for everyone else?

[Capitalism]

Not really. I prefer Lou Dobbs.

Ron Paul's campaign more closely follows the ideas of Mises and Hayek, not Dobbs. Not saying that makes them right; I'm just sayin'.

[Capitalism]

So why does our current administration encourage the war against blacks, by allowing their jobs to be given to illegal aliens?

There's not an absolute limit to the number of jobs in this country. More people here making more money means more jobs providing goods and services to those people as well.

[michaelwise]

Ron Paul's campaign more closely follows the ideas of Mises and Hayek, not Dobbs. Not saying that makes them right; I'm just sayin'.

Not everyone will agree with everything that Ron Paul preaches. But make a list of pros and cons of him and every other candidate. I think we can all agree that Ron Paul is the clear winner.

[michaelwise]

There's not an absolute limit to the number of jobs in this country. More people here making more money means more jobs providing goods and services to those people as well.

Well lets see, There are 300 million people in this country. Could there be 500 million jobs?

[Capitalism]

Well lets see, There are 300 million people in this country. Could there be 500 million jobs?

I don't know. But if there were no jobs, I am thinking people will stop moving here, assuming we get rid of the welfare state.

[kylejack]

Well lets see, There are 300 million people in this country. Could there be 500 million jobs?

Absolutely.

[michaelwise]

I don't know. But if there were no jobs, I am thinking people will stop moving here, assuming we get rid of the welfare state.

Have you been keeping up with what is going on in our current economy. You sound like you are very well read, so you have the capacity to understand a great many things. Here's whats going on in the Miami housing market.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIQaQn722QU

You might also like to take a look at thehousingbubbleblog.com, for the latest and most compressive news from around the country, on the housing market.

[kylejack]

Have you been keeping up with what is going on in our current economy. You sound like you are very well read, so you have the capacity to understand a great many things. Here's whats going on in the Miami housing market.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIQaQn722QU

You might also like to take a look at thehousingbubbleblog.com, for the latest and most compressive news from around the country, on the housing market.

Yes, but what's your point? They're not going to come if there's no jobs here for them.

[Dustancostine]

Have you been keeping up with what is going on in our current economy. You sound like you are very well read, so you have the capacity to understand a great many things. Here's whats going on in the Miami housing market.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIQaQn722QU

You might also like to take a look at thehousingbubbleblog.com, for the latest and most compressive news from around the country, on the housing market.

What does this have to do with immigration? The housingbubble was created by low interest rates and over production of money. Once again MONTETARY POLICY.

[michaelwise]

Yes, but what's your point? They're not going to come if there's no jobs here for them.

My point is, our economic policies played a large part in encouraging them to come here. The jobs here are going away now in a big way. The housing bust is the main reason for the DOW dropping 750 points this week. The economic meltdown has begun. We need to rethink how we do business in this country.

[kylejack]

My point is, our economic policies played a large part in encouraging them to come here. The jobs here are going away now in a big way. The housing bust is the main reason for the DOW dropping 750 points this week. The economic meltdown has begun. We need to rethink how we do business in this country.
The jobs are not going away, and a 7 day fluctuation in the market is not significant. Besides, that's a problem with our monetary policy, which will be resolved after Ron Paul is sworn in.

[BenIsForRon]

Jesus! "Fair wages," "slave wages," "minumum wages," "corporate greed," "stop immigration." As Mises told the Mont Pelerin Society, "you're all a bunch of socialists!" This sounds more like the message board of the AFL-CIO, which will endorse the Democratic candidate.

Ron Paul says things like stop immigration and corporate greed, I would say he's pretty accurate in his views of those things. We know he's not a socialist, he's a libertarian with a grip on reality.

We have to control immigration at this point because the market couldn't handle the influx without a massive market correction, like a depression. You have control the flow for at least a decade and get our currency based on something besides increasing debt and then you can allow the totally free market to work its magic. We've been in a semi-socialist system that did the opposite of what it was supposed to do. We had controlled immigration with a minimum wage, but in reality we let illegal immigrants in and paid them less than minimum wage. Our economy became based on this, our food is produced with illegal labor, and much of our industry is run with illegal labor. Now that we're at this stage, we can't have open borders because it would do nothing but increase unemployment in America. We essentially would be shouldering some of mexico's economic hardship, which is going to have rising unemployment over the few years. Instead of rebuilding their own country, they come over here add more strain to our infrastructure. If our economy was growing this would be fine, but the dollar is tanking and the real estate industry is collapsing. You don't want to add too many poor people during a period like this when you are having negative job creation in the country. So we need to stop illegal immigration, let our economy correct to where we aren't dependent on the national debt, then we open the borders.

I would be willing to say most people in here wouldn't have a job in a year if we totally opened our borders.

[michaelwise]

The jobs are not going away, and a 7 day fluctuation in the market is not significant. Besides, that's a problem with our monetary policy, which will be resolved after Ron Paul is sworn in.

I agree, but a severe economic meltdown will prove that Ron Paul is right about changing our economic policy. For reasons too complex, I cannot explain why the drop in the stock market last week is very signifigant. Many fundamental factors at work here. Private equity money drying up, subprime spilling over into alt-a and prime, and the value of the dollar dropping like a rock. We are seeing the beginning of a major market meltdown.

[lucius]

The jobs are not going away, and a 7 day fluctuation in the market is not significant. Besides, that's a problem with our monetary policy, which will be resolved after Ron Paul is sworn in.

I worked with a corporate downsizing team who laid-off 24,000+ North Americans over 18 months in 2004-2005, high paying electronic manufacturing jobs. We shut down plants that were in the black, making profits, even in Mexico—part of a strategic paradigm shift. We opened plants in China where we paid workers the equivalent of $0.19 an hour with no benefits and worked them like bastards (12 hours a day, six days a week). I saw a corporate report about Africa, how they thought they could utilize a potential labor climate that would work for food. I started waking up about Globalization. I believe that this is about the Globalization of poverty, designed to crush the lower & middle classes here in the States, succinctly, class warfare.

Transnational corporations are pushing illegal immigration, NAU etc… If we do not change this course, we will become a third world country quickly. No domestic manufacturing, means no innovations, no need for engineers; indicative by how many engineers we now graduate per year, about 50,000; China graduates over 250,000. Look at ITT etc., gearing up for our new found economy in security and criminal justice, where one third of the population will eventually watch the other two thirds.

I believe that Gurudas said it best:

“All these people say there are powerful groups threatening our way of life. Some sources identify the bankers and corporate elite as the source of our problems, while others feel the national security state is the threat. The power of Wall Street is now obvious to many. So much is happening today that it is increasingly clear a police state is no longer some distant event to fear. The American people must awaken and join together to restore constitutional government and diminish the power of the large corporations and their agent, the federal government, so that we can again be a free people.”

[ChooseLiberty]

Nice.


I worked with a corporate downsizing team who laid-off 24,000+ North Americans over 18 months in 2004-2005, high paying electronic manufacturing jobs. We shut down plants that were in the black, making profits, even in Mexico—part of a strategic paradigm shift. We opened plants in China where we paid workers the equivalent of $0.19 an hour with no benefits and worked them like bastards (12 hours a day, six days a week). I saw a corporate report about Africa, how they thought they could utilize a potential labor climate that would work for food. I started waking up about Globalization. I believe that this is about the Globalization of poverty, designed to crush the lower & middle classes here in the States, succinctly, class warfare.

Transnational corporations are pushing illegal immigration, NAU etc… If we do not change this course, we will become a third world country quickly. No domestic manufacturing, means no innovations, no need for engineers; indicative by how many engineers we now graduate per year, about 50,000; China graduates over 250,000. Look at ITT etc., gearing up for our new found economy in security and criminal justice, where one third of the population will eventually watch the other two thirds.

I believe that Gurudas said it best:

“All these people say there are powerful groups threatening our way of life. Some sources identify the bankers and corporate elite as the source of our problems, while others feel the national security state is the threat. The power of Wall Street is now obvious to many. So much is happening today that it is increasingly clear a police state is no longer some distant event to fear. The American people must awaken and join together to restore constitutional government and diminish the power of the large corporations and their agent, the federal government, so that we can again be a free people.”