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Ilhaguru
01-18-2008, 12:55 PM
Threads like this one:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=93297

A bigot is a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion. That is, exactly the opposite to what the message of liberty is.

Let's not allow these people to hijack our forums to spread a message that is completely opposed to this movement and what Dr. Paul stands for.

constituent
01-18-2008, 12:56 PM
move it to hot topics.... delete.... naaaaaah

Redmenace
01-18-2008, 12:57 PM
Here is an important point I think everyone should remember. This forum is privately owned, freedom of speech only applies to the government. If the owners of this sight want to ban users for saying the word banana then they can and have every right to throw you out.

JK/SEA
01-18-2008, 01:00 PM
Threads like this one:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=93297

A bigot is a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion. That is, exactly the opposite to what the message of liberty is.

Let's not allow these people to hijack our forums to spread a message that is completely opposed to this movement and what Dr. Paul stands for.

Agreed. For obvious reasons.

WilliamC
01-18-2008, 01:00 PM
Threads like this one:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=93297

A bigot is a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion. That is, exactly the opposite to what the message of liberty is.

Let's not allow these people to hijack our forums to spread a message that is completely opposed to this movement and what Dr. Paul stands for.

Actually, bigotry must be tolerated in a free society, but these forums are not public property so it's up to the moderator as to what stays and what goes.

Racism, on the other hand, is not compatable with a free society.

There is a difference, go to www.dictionary.com if you don't understand what it is.

Even though I am not a bigot, I will fight for a bigots right to free speech, because free speech is far more important that hurt feelings.

ThomasJ
01-18-2008, 01:02 PM
Yes this is a private forum but if they want to be an example for Ron Paul then freedom of speech should be protected to the utmost even when it offends. They do not have to do so. If they do not though people will tend to migrate to a place that they do.

Ilhaguru
01-18-2008, 01:25 PM
WilliamC, that's fair enough.

ThomasJ: These people have rights but this forum should not be used to spread someone else's ideas, especially one that is in complete contradiction to the message we are trying to spread. Discussing these ideas is completely fair game, but as this is a private forum, with a specific intent, and when someone undermines it in a serious way something needs to be done.

We have passive moderators and a lot of these comments end up being called on by members, which is good with me, but there's a fine line that if allowed to be crossed will result in anarchy and a complete undermining of our purpose.

Sweman
01-18-2008, 01:25 PM
Actually, bigotry must be tolerated in a free society, but these forums are not public property so it's up to the moderator as to what stays and what goes.


Yes this is a private forum but if they want to be an example for Ron Paul then freedom of speech should be protected to the utmost even when it offends. They do not have to do so. If they do not though people will tend to migrate to a place that they do.

I think the best would be to strive for something in between these opinions. I don't think we want total freedom and no censorship, because it can lead to chaos.

In a real world community we wouldn't allow people to throw uncalled for insults around them without acting against it. We would neither allow them to stand and scream in the ears of others as they are having a discussion.

Even in a free society the minority will have to adjust to the manners of the majority, but I think that in this community the majority will listen to what the minority has to say, as long as it is brought forward in a civilised way.

ThomasJ
01-18-2008, 01:29 PM
WilliamC, that's fair enough.

ThomasJ: These people have rights but this forum should not be used to spread someone else's ideas, especially one that is in complete contradiction to the message we are trying to spread. Discussing these ideas is completely fair game, but as this is a private forum, with a specific intent, and when someone undermines it in a serious way something needs to be done.

We have passive moderators and a lot of these comments end up being called on by members, which is good with me, but there's a fine line that if allowed to be crossed will result in anarchy and a complete undermining of our purpose.

This is why I said delete. Most of the time the Mods move this or that thread to Hot Topics. Which is fine.

I just do not believe in deleting for that sake. If the Hard Drives are full then by all means delete but to delete because it is not PC is wrong.

I know that we are trying to support Dr. Paul on this forum that is why I feel that freedom of speech should at all cost be protected. That is Dr. Paul mission, to protect our civil rights. How can we expect our government to be for individual freedom if our Freedom movement cannot allow that same freedom for people with which we disagree.

BarryDonegan
01-18-2008, 02:21 PM
racism is alive and well in america. just the victims have switched around a little bit, and the government is still pushing it on us.

Caravello
01-18-2008, 02:24 PM
Most people are bigots. Sorry to break the news to you OP. Blame the Big Man in the sky for making people the way he did. And bigotry comes in many degrees, shapes, and sizes. Far be it from YOU to decide what is and what is not bigotry or to ask the Mods to do that for you.


Geez....


What is this world coming to? People have an aversion to human nature that is truly disturbing, and that's what has gotten us into this mess. If only people could be programmed like little robots, or beat into conformity like dogs we'd all be happier and safer and blah blah blah. Like that old German expression, kick a puppy enough and he falls in love with your shoe.

JMann
01-18-2008, 02:26 PM
I am pleased that people are using the correct terms and have learned the difference between a racist and a bigot. Archie Bunker was considered a bigot in his day where in modern history Imus is called a racist. There are racist no doubt but the term racist is used to destroy people that may just being demonstrating bigotry or prejudice. As I've stated before we all have prejudice, many people are bigoted but there is only a tiny percentage of the population that are truly racist.

firebirdnation
01-18-2008, 02:28 PM
Most people are bigots. Sorry to break the news to you OP. Blame the Big Man in the sky for making people the way he did. And bigotry comes in many degrees, shapes, and sizes. Far be it from YOU to decide what is and what is not bigotry or to ask the Mods to do that for you.


Geez....


What is this world coming to? People have an aversion to human nature that is truly disturbing, and that's what has gotten us into this mess. If only people could be programmed like little robots, or beat into conformity like dogs we'd all be happier and safer and blah blah blah. Like that old German expression, kick a puppy enough and he falls in love with your shoe.

+1

Redcard
01-18-2008, 02:28 PM
Obviously government censorship is bad. There are plenty of bigots here, and while I find many of their comments outright inflammatory and disgusting, they are free to make them.

BUT..

By the same account.. we will never win this election, or any others, when people are allowed to staple hateful propaganda onto a candidate who does not believe in that hateful propaganda. It's one thing to have a belief, but we're on the Ron Paul Forums. Our texts here, whether we think they should be or otherwise, DO have an effect on our candidate. If you want to be a hateful bigot, I'd recommend some other site. NOT because I'm trying to stifle your free speech or send you to some "Free Speech Zone," but because it makes it harder for us to win this election.

It's very simple. Do you want to win this election? If you do, you will stop hurting our candidate. It's not easy to sell Ron Paul on people when you have to discliam them on a lot of the supporters of the very candidate you're selling.

I don't know HOW many times I've heard "Well, I used the google on him and it was sponsored by the KKK" or "I read a blog written by someone supporting him that said Jews were never gassed." I don't mind people having their opinions, but those opinions are NOT the ones Ron Paul is running under. Please, have your opinions, but at the same time, recognize when the zealous preaching of your opinions MIGHT be detrimental.

Course, I'm working for the CIA, so what do I know, right?

Caravello
01-18-2008, 02:30 PM
I am pleased that people are using the correct terms and have learned the difference between a racist and a bigot. Archie Bunker was considered a bigot in his day where in modern history Imus is called a racist. There are racist no doubt but the term racist is used to destroy people that may just being demonstrating bigotry or prejudice. As I've stated before we all have prejudice, many people are bigoted but there is only a tiny percentage of the population that are truly racist.


Bull. Most people are racist in that they prefer to be around people of their own race to others. To deny this is foolish. They may look for a variety of ways to express that, like "white flight" or "barrios" or "black inner city" but the results are the same. The different races tend to prefer the company of people like them. Which is re-affirming and comforting if you ask me, because it says that despite all the media sophistication and "education" (i.e. brainwashing) going on, people are still merely advanced animals with the same needs of all animals, to be around their own tribe or clan or pride for feelings of belonging, safety, and comfort. Thank God!

libertythor
01-18-2008, 02:44 PM
Mustache in Spanish is bigote. Delete all threads with avatars that contain mustaches. :D

libertythor
01-18-2008, 02:45 PM
Bull. Most people are racist in that they prefer to be around people of their own race to others. To deny this is foolish. They may look for a variety of ways to express that, like "white flight" or "barrios" or "black inner city" but the results are the same. The different races tend to prefer the company of people like them. Which is re-affirming and comforting if you ask me, because it says that despite all the media sophistication and "education" (i.e. brainwashing) going on, people are still merely advanced animals with the same needs of all animals, to be around their own tribe or clan or pride for feelings of belonging, safety, and comfort. Thank God!

Yes, and for most its a cultural issue. If you go to any middle class suburb, you will find neighbors of various races sprinkled in there, and there are no troubles.

JoshLowry
01-18-2008, 02:47 PM
I don't like it when threads are deleted either. I will post a reminder in the moderator forum.

Thanks.

Kregener
01-18-2008, 02:49 PM
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s167/Kregener/2nd%20Amendment/Diversity.jpg

JeffersonThomas
01-18-2008, 02:51 PM
lol...what about threads that are bigotted against biggots? should we delete those biggoted threads too? :D

fmontez
01-18-2008, 02:53 PM
lol...what about threads that are bigotted against biggots? should we delete those biggoted threads too? :D

YES! Bigots against Bigotry are the people who brought us PC. I'd rather have a racist sitting next to me than a PC freak.

JeffersonThomas
01-18-2008, 02:54 PM
YES! Bigots against Bigotry are the people who brought us PC. I'd rather have a racist sitting next to me than a PC freak.

Personal Computers? I really didn't know...the things I learn on the RP forums...

BIRDMAN4PAUL
01-18-2008, 02:54 PM
Actually, bigotry must be tolerated in a free society, but these forums are not public property so it's up to the moderator as to what stays and what goes.

Racism, on the other hand, is not compatable with a free society.

There is a difference, go to www.dictionary.com if you don't understand what it is.

Even though I am not a bigot, I will fight for a bigots right to free speech, because free speech is far more important that hurt feelings.

bigot

JMann
01-18-2008, 02:56 PM
Bull. Most people are racist in that they prefer to be around people of their own race to others. To deny this is foolish. They may look for a variety of ways to express that, like "white flight" or "barrios" or "black inner city" but the results are the same. The different races tend to prefer the company of people like them. Which is re-affirming and comforting if you ask me, because it says that despite all the media sophistication and "education" (i.e. brainwashing) going on, people are still merely advanced animals with the same needs of all animals, to be around their own tribe or clan or pride for feelings of belonging, safety, and comfort. Thank God!

Obviously you don't know the definition of a racist. So let me help you out from dictionary.com

Racist: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

Choosing to associate with people like yourself is no where close to being comparable to the belief that your race is superior and has the right to rule others.

Please understand the term is used by the race warmongers to destroy people's lives. If you think most people are this way you need to find a new crowd to hang out with.

Jimmy
01-18-2008, 02:58 PM
Most people like to be around there own kind. Black people like to be around other blacks....whites, Indians, Mexcians, its all the same. Proud to be Native American Indian, proud to be a Mexican, Proud to be Black, Proud to be White.....Very natural....I read nothing negative into it at all. Hate is were the problem is....nothing wrong at all being proud of who you are and being around your own kind. Be proud of you heritage.....not ashamed.

Cyclone
01-18-2008, 02:59 PM
When we all signed up on this forum there were rules and guidelines and a stated purpose for this forum. This is not a free for all. This is not a place to discuss knitting stitches, or fly fishing flies and how to tie them, etc. etc. etc.

This is a forum dedicated and devoted to supporting Ron Paul's run for Presidency. Were the mods not to take out unrelated stuff we would quickly get over run with off topic threads.

This is a totally private forum, we are all free to accept its rules or dislike them and leave. No one is forced to stay either.

Amazingly they provide this service to us at no fee at all. I say thank you RPF for all you have done for all of us and for giving us a place to discuss Ron Paul.

Caravello
01-18-2008, 03:02 PM
Yes, and for most its a cultural issue. If you go to any middle class suburb, you will find neighbors of various races sprinkled in there, and there are no troubles.


yeah, b/c one race is dominant and the other races know they are the minority and try to thrive within that framework. It's when the races all get to be a decent size and compete with each other for "turf" and control that the problems arise, that their kids start fighting each other in schools along racial lines, etc. and why there are very very very few communities in the USA that are like 25% white, 25% black, 25% Asian, 25% hispanic. Multiracial communities like that are simply unworkable. It's hard enough to get different ethnicities and income classes and religions within the same race to get along that people realize that deep down if you thrown in the racial component that it breaks down even more.

And how much energy and time and resources and guilt are we Americans supposed to spend dealing with these things? Geez, what about not having to worry about race and just be left alone with people you want to be with and enjoy life. ....hmmm...enjoying life, what little time we have of it, what a concept... God forbid people actually be happy!!!!

Jimmy
01-18-2008, 03:03 PM
Obviously you don't know the definition of a racist. So let me help you out from dictionary.com

Racist: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

Choosing to associate with people like yourself is no where close to being comparable to the belief that your race is superior and has the right to rule others.

Please understand the term is used by the race warmongers to destroy people's lives. If you think most people are this way you need to find a new crowd to hang out with.

So what happens when you feel your not superiour to different races at all? Its all in the way folks look at things. Your just different...obviously...Whats wrong with it then exactly?

Ilhaguru
01-18-2008, 03:05 PM
Most people are bigots. Sorry to break the news to you OP. Blame the Big Man in the sky for making people the way he did. And bigotry comes in many degrees, shapes, and sizes. Far be it from YOU to decide what is and what is not bigotry or to ask the Mods to do that for you.


Geez....


What is this world coming to? People have an aversion to human nature that is truly disturbing, and that's what has gotten us into this mess. If only people could be programmed like little robots, or beat into conformity like dogs we'd all be happier and safer and blah blah blah. Like that old German expression, kick a puppy enough and he falls in love with your shoe.

Read my reply #7. A little technicality that has been addressed.

My point is that racist remarks do not advance our purpose and therefore should not be tolerated in this board.

Racism is treasonous to liberty. People in this board love conspiracies, they love to say how much they have trolls that have infiltrated us trying to break us apart, but when it comes to racism it's all alright. Racism is trolling at it's worse, it's irrational, and it is a collectivist idea. Completely against what we believe in, and they are hijacking our message because we believe they have the right to what they believe, whether we like it or not.

We have to distance ourselves from them. Their ideas is NOT what we believe in, the exact opposite is. As Ron Paul said, "libertarians are incapable of racism". We find the idea of racism repugnant - we do not respect it, nor the racist scumbag - but we believe it is not a crime, just stupidity.

Read this article from Reason Magazine:

http://reason.com/blog/show/124467.html

JMann
01-18-2008, 03:08 PM
So what happens when you feel your not superiour to different races at all? Its all in the way folks look at things. Your just different...obviously...Whats wrong with it then exactly?

No it isn't. Words have meaning and definitions. You can't change the words to fit what you think it means. I don't personally know one person that feels like white people are genetically superior to others.

Ilhaguru
01-18-2008, 03:12 PM
yeah, b/c one race is dominant and the other races know they are the minority and try to thrive within that framework. It's when the races all get to be a decent size and compete with each other for "turf" and control that the problems arise, that their kids start fighting each other in schools along racial lines, etc. and why there are very very very few communities in the USA that are like 25% white, 25% black, 25% Asian, 25% hispanic. Multiracial communities like that are simply unworkable. It's hard enough to get different ethnicities and income classes and religions within the same race to get along that people realize that deep down if you thrown in the racial component that it breaks down even more.

And how much energy and time and resources and guilt are we Americans supposed to spend dealing with these things? Geez, what about not having to worry about race and just be left alone with people you want to be with and enjoy life. ....hmmm...enjoying life, what little time we have of it, what a concept... God forbid people actually be happy!!!!


You need to take a trip down to Brazil. That place is a true melting pot of all races, and it is so color-blind.

Works quite well.

Caravello
01-18-2008, 03:12 PM
Obviously you don't know the definition of a racist. So let me help you out from dictionary.com

Racist: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

Choosing to associate with people like yourself is no where close to being comparable to the belief that your race is superior and has the right to rule others.

Please understand the term is used by the race warmongers to destroy people's lives. If you think most people are this way you need to find a new crowd to hang out with.

What is wrong with thinking that one's race is better than another's. What's wrong with pride? As long as people don't hurt others because of race, then what is wrong with thinking your own kind is better than others? It's just an opinion anyway, and opinions are like....[bleep]...everyone has one. White people can tell blacks til they are blue in the face that whites are better, and blacks will just say "Sure..whatever you say pal."

We're imperfect. I revel in it. I don't run away from it.

crink
01-18-2008, 03:13 PM
I think that,in public, you should be able say anything you want and as long as you don't act upon it the government has no right to bother you.

But this isn't the public. We all know the charges the MSM are putting up against Dr.Paul. An d we all also know RP haters watch this forum....

1+1=?

Ilhaguru
01-18-2008, 03:13 PM
So what happens when you feel your not superiour to different races at all? Its all in the way folks look at things. Your just different...obviously...Whats wrong with it then exactly?

It is in how you JUDGE a person - by his/her character versus color or some other stupid "reason".

Ilhaguru
01-18-2008, 03:14 PM
When we all signed up on this forum there were rules and guidelines and a stated purpose for this forum. This is not a free for all. This is not a place to discuss knitting stitches, or fly fishing flies and how to tie them, etc. etc. etc.

This is a forum dedicated and devoted to supporting Ron Paul's run for Presidency. Were the mods not to take out unrelated stuff we would quickly get over run with off topic threads.

This is a totally private forum, we are all free to accept its rules or dislike them and leave. No one is forced to stay either.

Amazingly they provide this service to us at no fee at all. I say thank you RPF for all you have done for all of us and for giving us a place to discuss Ron Paul.

EXACTLY!

Caravello
01-18-2008, 03:16 PM
You need to take a trip down to Brazil. That place is a true melting pot of all races, and it is so color-blind.

Works quite well.

That is one of the biggest myths in the world. There are clear demarcations based on race. Whites live here, blacks live here, mullattoes live here. True, there is a lot more interracial coupling, and that makes Brazil more unique than America in that regard, but to say there is absolutely zero racial consciousness is to perpetuate a myth. But hey, if it works for them, great, even if I don't believe that is entirely the case. The fact remains that it DOES NOT work like that in America or in maybe 90% of the world. Brazil if anything is the exception that proves the rule.

libertythor
01-18-2008, 03:17 PM
You need to take a trip down to Brazil. That place is a true melting pot of all races, and it is so color-blind.

Works quite well.

They still have racial problems, but its now more of a color gradient. Darker discriminates against lighter. There is still interracial crime and strife in a lot of the big cities.

Brazil´s crime rate makes Mexico´s look tame. But yes, they are a melting pot, and most neighborhoods are integrated.

It also depends on the region.

Ilhaguru
01-18-2008, 03:20 PM
That is one of the biggest myths in the world. There are clear demarcations based on race. Whites live here, blacks live here, mullattoes live here. True, there is a lot more interracial coupling, and that makes Brazil more unique than America in that regard, but to say there is absolutely zero racial consciousness is to perpetuate a myth. But hey, if it works for them, great, even if I don't believe that is entirely the case. The fact remains that it DOES NOT work like that in America or in maybe 90% of the world. Brazil if anything is the exception that proves the rule.

That "demarcation" crap is NOT true. Racial "consciousness" is more like total racial confusion - most people don't even know what they are, so they don't give a rats ass about it.

That is not to say there is no racism but it is mostly a non-issue.

Caravello
01-18-2008, 03:23 PM
Read my reply #7. A little technicality that has been addressed.

My point is that racist remarks do not advance our purpose and therefore should not be tolerated in this board.

Racism is treasonous to liberty. People in this board love conspiracies, they love to say how much they have trolls that have infiltrated us trying to break us apart, but when it comes to racism it's all alright. Racism is trolling at it's worse, it's irrational, and it is a collectivist idea. Completely against what we believe in, and they are hijacking our message because we believe they have the right to what they believe, whether we like it or not.

We have to distance ourselves from them. Their ideas is NOT what we believe in, the exact opposite is. As Ron Paul said, "libertarians are incapable of racism". We find the idea of racism repugnant - we do not respect it, nor the racist scumbag - but we believe it is not a crime, just stupidity.

Read this article from Reason Magazine:

http://reason.com/blog/show/124467.html

Well, I disagree. I think people, if allowed to be free, would demonstrate that they prefer to live among a similar race. Maybe some do not, and that is their right too. I think you are oversimplifying what race as a collective means in the libertarian position. It means that every one is to be treated as an individual with certain unalienable rights. That's it. If people, in pursuing their rights as citizens to live wherever and with whomever they want demonstrate a pattern of racial grouping, then so what? It does not invalidate the concept of individual liberties. It only would if the races started to use their collective power to deny other races or other individuals their individual rights. And the government should be there to make sure this doesn't happen.

Ilhaguru
01-18-2008, 03:24 PM
They still have racial problems, but its now more of a color gradient. Darker discriminates against lighter. There is still interracial crime and strife in a lot of the big cities.

Brazil´s crime rate makes Mexico´s look tame. But yes, they are a melting pot, and most neighborhoods are integrated.

It also depends on the region.

Yes, there it does depend in the region. But that has to do more with history and where immigrants and slaves were taken to than anything else. And as far as crime goes, there's plenty of white criminals too, it's just that the majority of European-descendants have either controlled the government for along time so naturally they are wealthier, sort of like you can't expect slavery to end and not have those freed suffer for a long time.

Economic disasters in Brazil's past have mixed the population quite a bit. You won't find just blacks or mix among the very poor, although they still remain a majority.

Ernest
01-18-2008, 03:26 PM
Words have meaning and definitions.

They sure do but "racism" isn't one of them. It is a largely undefined & fluid term. Many times it is thrown out just to try and shut people up. Sometimes it is defined by the person using it toward another person irrespective of intent or meaning from that person. Other times it is used in a particular instance against a whole society and is used to demoralize or undermine a culture.

Caravello
01-18-2008, 03:30 PM
That "demarcation" crap is NOT true. Racial "consciousness" is more like total racial confusion - most people don't even know what they are, so they don't give a rats ass about it.

That is not to say there is no racism but it is mostly a non-issue.

It's a non-issue for some precisely because of what you said, b/c they are so mixed racially that it is a concept they can't get their arms around. So why bother? My family is from Italy, for example; my mom's paternal side is originally from Sicily, my mom's maternal side is originally from Rome, and my dad's side is from outer Venice. So to ask me to have an undertsanding of what it means to be a Sicilian or a Roman or a Venezian is so beyond my comprehension that I don't even try (although my heart bleeds for A.S. Roma).

But in Brazil there are a lot of people who are white/caucasian and who live with other people like them and choose to do so. And from what I understand -- I could be wrong -- the whites pretty much control the country and the mixed races and indigenous people are giving short shrift.

Ilhaguru
01-18-2008, 03:31 PM
Well, I disagree. I think people, if allowed to be free, would demonstrate that they prefer to live among a similar race. Maybe some do not, and that is their right too. I think you are oversimplifying what race as a collective means in the libertarian position. It means that every one is to be treated as an individual with certain unalienable rights. That's it. If people, in pursuing their rights as citizens to live wherever and with whomever they want demonstrate a pattern of racial grouping, then so what? It does not invalidate the concept of individual liberties. It only would if the races started to use their collective power to deny other races or other individuals their individual rights. And the government should be there to make sure this doesn't happen.

I completely agree. The individuality point that libertarians believe in make racism and libertarianism mutually exclusive, but ti doesn't make it a crime. I think you are missing my point - how does all that pertain to this forum and the message of libertarianism?

A lot of what you mentioned above has to do with culture and is not necessarily racist. If you don't like latin music, you won't hang out with many latins, but it doesn't mean you're a racist.

Ernest
01-18-2008, 03:33 PM
That is one of the biggest myths in the world. There are clear demarcations based on race. Whites live here, blacks live here, mullattoes live here. True, there is a lot more interracial coupling, and that makes Brazil more unique than America in that regard, but to say there is absolutely zero racial consciousness is to perpetuate a myth. But hey, if it works for them, great, even if I don't believe that is entirely the case. The fact remains that it DOES NOT work like that in America or in maybe 90% of the world. Brazil if anything is the exception that proves the rule.

Thank you. Brazil is just as "racist" as anywhere else. This idea that the US invented racism or whites are the most racist or whatever is complete crap. Race distinctions have been around since the beginning of man. There are no races who are not "racist" nor who have not been the subject of it.

JMann
01-18-2008, 03:33 PM
They sure do but "racism" isn't one of them. It is a largely undefined & fluid term. Many times it is thrown out just to try and shut people up. Sometimes it is defined by the person using it toward another person irrespective of intent or meaning from that person. Other times it is used in a particular instance against a whole society and is used to demoralize or undermine a culture.

No, it has a definition. People abuse it and use it inappropriately and it has been something that has pissed me off for 20 years now. It is used politically and socially to destroy people's lives.

Imus calling a team of black women 'nappy headed ho's' is not racist in the slightest but that is how it was portrayed to destroy the man. Today his remarks are labeled 'insensitive' because that is what they where and his career had already been taken away from him. Calling someone racist is about the worst thing you can call a person.

Ilhaguru
01-18-2008, 03:36 PM
But in Brazil there are a lot of people who are white/caucasian and who live with other people like them and choose to do so. And from what I understand -- I could be wrong -- the whites pretty much control the country and the mixed races and indigenous people are giving short shrift.

Yes, but it has more to do with the constant wiping away of the middle class than some racial thing. Plenty of poor whites, but usually they do not live in total misery because of a better educated past.

Caravello
01-18-2008, 03:36 PM
I completely agree. The individuality point that libertarians believe in make racism and libertarianism mutually exclusive, but ti doesn't make it a crime. I think you are missing my point - how does all that pertain to this forum and the message of libertarianism?

A lot of what you mentioned above has to do with culture and is not necessarily racist. If you don't like latin music, you won't hang out with many latins, but it doesn't mean you're a racist.

I see your point. My point was to try and dispel the idea that if people chose to live among others of the same race or if they had ideas that their race was better than another that this was not racism per se, at least in the manner in which JMann was describing it. My idea of racism is only that if one race harms another based solely on race, that that is racism as I understand it and that that is wrong and immoral. In fact, doing harm to anyone is wrong and immoral. And for me that's the only concept of racism that means anything. All the rest is probably a lot more to do with culture, as you say.

Ernest
01-18-2008, 03:36 PM
No, it has a definition. People abuse it and use it inappropriately and it has been something that has pissed me off for 20 years now. It is used politically and socially to destroy people's lives.

Imus calling a team of black women 'nappy headed ho's' is not racist in the slightest but that is how it was portrayed to destroy the man. Today his remarks are labeled 'insensitive' because that is what they where and his career had already been taken away from him. Calling someone racist is about the worst thing you can call a person.

I would agree with that.

Ilhaguru
01-18-2008, 03:37 PM
Thank you. Brazil is just as "racist" as anywhere else. This idea that the US invented racism or whites are the most racist or whatever is complete crap. Race distinctions have been around since the beginning of man. There are no races who are not "racist" nor who have not been the subject of it.

Did I say that? Stop putting words in my mouth.

Ernest
01-18-2008, 03:39 PM
Did I say that? Stop putting words in my mouth.

OK fair enough. What are you implying here? Other then presenting something that isn't true.


You need to take a trip down to Brazil. That place is a true melting pot of all races, and it is so color-blind.

JMann
01-18-2008, 03:44 PM
I see your point. My point was to try and dispel the idea that if people chose to live among others of the same race or if they had ideas that their race was better than another that this was not racism per se, at least in the manner in which JMann was describing it. My idea of racism is only that if one race harms another based solely on race, that that is racism as I understand it and that that is wrong and immoral. In fact, doing harm to anyone is wrong and immoral. And for me that's the only concept of racism that means anything. All the rest is probably a lot more to do with culture, as you say.

Doing harm to someone because of race is wrong but it isn't racism. You are picking the worst level of racial intolerance to describe an action of someone. The term has been hijacked and it is wrong that has happened because it diminishes the true evil of racism.

This is my last post on this subject because people can believe what they want.

nascar
01-18-2008, 03:46 PM
You guys never well solved this problem.
We need free speech. All nation.

solution:
Open one section without moderators control.

Ernest
01-18-2008, 03:53 PM
Doing harm to someone because of race is wrong but it isn't racism. You are picking the worst level of racial intolerance to describe an action of someone. The term has been hijacked and it is wrong that has happened because it diminishes the true evil of racism.

This is my last post on this subject because people can believe what they want.

I would suggest this is a problem. The American people don't want to face or deal with it. Instead we have become a nation crippled by the term. Just look at the whole RP debacle. It had many people running around like a chicken with its head cut off. Talk about brainwashing and control. Let the MSM/PTB push it and control. More then the "evils of racism" this is what we need to combat and get on top of. Hell look at the whole Jena 6 fiasco. It practcally had the whole country divided and over what exactly?

Caravello
01-18-2008, 03:54 PM
Doing harm to someone because of race is wrong but it isn't racism. You are picking the worst level of racial intolerance to describe an action of someone. The term has been hijacked and it is wrong that has happened because it diminishes the true evil of racism.

This is my last post on this subject because people can believe what they want.

If racism means anything other than doing harm to someone only b/c of their race, then I don't see how it can be "evil." If I as a white guy truly believe that the art and music and architecture produced by whites is better than that produced by African blacks, then that is merely cultural bias and ethnic/racial pride. And if by extension and being that I hold the arts in high regard, if I want to believe that whites in general are superior to blacks not only b/c of their artistic output but also b/c of their food and cars and clothes, then so what?

Your point is not with the concept of racism but with the word itself and how it has been used to destroy careers, for example. That is not "racism" but raw power and intimidation under the banner of a concept called racism. It could just as be "anti semitism" or any other modern taboo that is used like a weapon to destroy and smear people. That is not "racism" but naked power with government and social sanction being used to cause harm.

Menthol Patch
01-18-2008, 03:56 PM
The fact of the matter is that racism is a RIGHT. You have a right to be racist! I'm not a racist and have nothing against Chinese people or people of any race. However, if I was a racist I would have the right to not associate with them, not let them come into my business, not hire them, etc. Racism is a horrible thing, but it's even more horrible when you violate people's rights to try and stop racism.

Ilhaguru
01-18-2008, 04:15 PM
OK fair enough. What are you implying here? Other then presenting something that isn't true.

It is true. Have you been there? I have, several times.

I didn't say there was absolutely no racism because that wouldn't be true, but people just generally don't care because it is all so mixed up. When I say there is "racial confusion" in Brazil, don't underestimate that.

But this is already off topic. .

WilliamC
01-18-2008, 09:14 PM
The fact of the matter is that racism is a RIGHT. You have a right to be racist! I'm not a racist and have nothing against Chinese people or people of any race. However, if I was a racist I would have the right to not associate with them, not let them come into my business, not hire them, etc. Racism is a horrible thing, but it's even more horrible when you violate people's rights to try and stop racism.

Racism, from dictionary.com

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Bigotry, from dictionary.com

1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

To me the difference is in the behaviour, not the thought.

Racism always to me implies that the racist wishes to harm others they are bigoted against. That is why it is incompatible with a free society.

Bigotry is a necessary, but not sufficent condition for racism. Bigots may be perfectly peaceful people with intolerance of others, and live their whole lives never acting to harm those others. That is why bigotry must be tolerated in a free society.

As soon as we are judged based on what we think, not what we do, then we are no longer free.