Confirmed: PayPal sabotages New Hampshire vote recount

[JimInNY]

Got this just now in an AFTF email from Cali AFTF:


Hello Volunteers!

On our California Conference Call earlier this evening, I mentioned that I had been
informed that the Granny Warriors' PayPal account had been frozen at the last minute
by PayPal and the freeze prevented the transfer of the fee for the New Hampshire
vote recount. I promised to verify this information and I have now done so.

I am informed directly by the Granny Warriors that PayPal did in fact freeze the
funds earmarked for the Recount Fees! So, now you know who to blame for the failure
to get a recount of the New Hampshire vote count. PayPal.
The application for a recount of the New Hampshire vote required a deposit of
$55,600 to the New Hampshire Secretary of State no later than 3:00 P.M. this
afternoon, January 15th. A huge and successful effort by the Granny Warriors raised
the money and they ordered the transfer to the Secretary. However, at the very last
moment, PayPal FROZE THE ACCOUNT and did not transfer the money. The deadline for
payment of the deposit passed and the recount application was rejected for lack of
payment.

Emergency efforts by our folks on the scene in New Hampshire to push the recount
through the Secretary's office were not successful and a lot of frustration has been
expressed on both sides as a result. The problem was not with the Secretary of State
for New Hampshire, it was with PayPal. I understand that the matter may remain
unresolved and a recount may still be possible. I am hoping for additional
information early Wednesday, January 16th.

I am sure that PayPal will have a lot of excuses, but lame excuses are not
acceptable under these circumstances.
Here is the PayPal contact URL:
https://investor.shareholder.com/paypal/contactus.cfm
(https://investor.shareholder.com/paypal/contactus.cfm)

Thank you to the Granny Warriors and to the others on the ground in New Hampshire
who went beyond the call of duty for the recount and a big BOO to PayPal. We should
remember who our friends are. And we should also remember which companies,
organizations and people act to oppose our fight for Liberty and Self-Determination.
I will pass along more information as it becomes available.
(https://investor.shareholder.com/paypal/contactus.cfm)


Best regards,

(Name redacted by me)

[Joe3113]

You are f*cking kidding me!!!!

[Cali4RonPaul]

What the hell, why did the funds stay in the account, Granny warriors should have been withdrawing funds daily if not hourly.

[Menthol Patch]

So what is going to happen to everyone's money?!

That is FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!!

[Cali4RonPaul]

This makes no sense, why did the funds stay there, it takes 3-4 days for a PayPal transfer to a bank account, so Granny Warriors should have withdrawn amounts prior.

[JimInNY]

You are f*cking kidding me!!!!

I shit you not. It came from CA AFTF coordinator.

[worldsupport]

that's messed up! Seconded the question of what happens to everyone's money

On top of that, Ron Paul said he didn't want a recount.

[rs3515]

It doesn't matter if you're transferring $5 or $500,000 from PayPal to your own account. It takes 3-4 business days for the funds to be transferred. Did someone assume it could be transferred the same day?

[JimInNY]

If I get any more info I will pass it along. I would imagine that in short order, paypal will be swamped with calls and emails, and I hope they fix this fast.

Funny thing though, when I kept getting that message on paypal yesterday, when I tried to donate, I had a sneaky suspicion that they would pull a stunt like this.

Paypal does suck, bigtime.

[Cali4RonPaul]

Something isnt right here, what was Granny Warriors going to do PAYPAL the funds to the secretary? The secretary of state accepts PAYPAL?? not likely.

There is something not clear here.

[UK4Paul]

I personally contributed to that fund, but relying on Paypal is always dangerous. I thought the Sec of State would only accept the money by check anyway... so how would they have received the money by Paypal?

[zakkubin]

Paypal did this to me after I sold a bunch of ps3's

It sucked because I invested money I needed to pay for my school tuition.
I shipped them all next day mail and everyone was happy. Paypal just had a policy of freezing an account after a certain amount.

I finally talked to a case manager or something and hinted at seeking a lawyer since pay pal was in effect forcing me to drop out of college! The guy quickly changed his attitude and went through every transaction with me and finally released my assets. This whole thing took near a month!

[UK4Paul]

Precisely. Why would the Sec of State accept payment by Paypal?

[Marc3579]

Ya I'm not a fan of PayPal. They are kind of sneaky, I wouldn't put it past them...

[tyler477]

i don't believe this for a second, There should have been a plan for a benefactor to pay the money by 3pm and then be reimbursed by the grannies.
If this was truly so IMPORTANT to them they should have had a plan B.

This is what happens when you leave an important factor in politics to some old biddies that don't know how to use a computer.
ALSO:
they said the secretary required a money order..... there is NO WAY a money order can be issued same day from paypal.

GO TO BED GRANNIES, YOUR 'HELP' IS NOT NEEDED.

[Mckarnin]

If I get any more info I will pass it along. I would imagine that in short order, paypal will be swamped with calls and emails, and I hope they fix this fast.

Funny thing though, when I kept getting that message on paypal yesterday, when I tried to donate, I had a sneaky suspicion that they would pull a stunt like this.

Paypal does suck, bigtime.


That's why we couldn't use them for the blimp until we got our hands on a business acount.

[JimInNY]

Did someone assume it could be transferred the same day?

I don't know. I would think they had that worked out with paypal.

Again, if I hear more I will post it here.

I just happen to be on the AFTF mailing for from when I was involved with them last year, around the time Ed and Elaine brown were holed up.

[rs3515]

Something isnt right here, what was Granny Warriors going to do PAYPAL the funds to the secretary? The secretary of state accepts PAYPAL?? not likely.

There is something not clear here.


Yes what's missing is PayPal always requires 3-4 business days for transfer of funds from a PayPal account to a personal bank account. I'd really like some clarification on how anyone would consider this sabotage. There is no way the funds would have made it to them on time. Did anyone consider this?

[Marc3579]

All of the information may not be out there for us right now.

[pacelli]

So what is going to happen to everyone's money?!

That is FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!!

Exactly- do we get our money back or not?

[zakkubin]

P.S. to those of you talking about how they should have been transferring the money as it came in:

Well I did that when I sold my ps3's in my above story.

The problem is as you state it can take 4 days. Well paypal can actually retrieve that money right up until the point it's actually in your account.

So this may very well be the case here. The money was scattered in parts en route to an account but was ALL recalled back to pay pal.

[Agent CSL]

PayPal has a looooong history of doing this. I knew, sooner or later, a big fundraiser was going to be frozen on PayPal.

FYI, (I think) PayPal gets to keep all the money. =\

[Santana28]

wow...well... all i can say is this - if they had a way to fix the vote in NH, then i'm pretty sure they damned well had a way to "fix" the recount as well in place... otherwise they wouldn't have been so blatantly obvious about it.

but as i've said before - if they could guarantee the vote to be fixed in all 50 states, then they wouldn't be afraid of him in the first place. we must keep on.

[Cali4RonPaul]

It doesn't matter if you're transferring $5 or $500,000 from PayPal to your own account. It takes 3-4 business days for the funds to be transferred. Did someone assume it could be transferred the same day?



If you go to their site it is confirmed their paypal account is down.

Im glad I didnt send any funds to grandmothers. There is still a digital divide between the young and the old, no way im going to send a great grandma a paypal.

[rs3515]

I don't know. I would think they had that worked out with paypal.

I know of people who do thousands in transactions each week via PayPal. I've never heard of PayPal giving preferential treatment for someone getting funds faster than 3-4 days. That's a normal amount of time for an electronic funds transfer (ETF).

[jlaker]

WTF! I can not believe this Sh*t. Now what? F*CK Paypal

[Agent CSL]

www.paypalsucks.com

You were warned.

[worldsupport]

Did grannywarrior know that paypal takes 3-4 days? Let's not jump to judgement but it does suck for all who donated. Thankfully I did not. I would rather concentrate on donating to the campaign and billboards.

Let this be a lesson.

[tyler477]

it is NOT paypal's fault..... it is the grannys' fault.

[rs3515]

If you go to there site it is confirmed their paypal account is down.

Im glad I didnt send any funds to grandmothers. There is still a digital divide between the young and the old, no way im going to send a grandma a paypal.

Part of the issue too is the difference between a PayPal Standard and a PayPal Premium account. Premium accounts are for business owners and are more flexible about the transaction size. However you need a business EIN to do this and it takes at least 10 business days to set it up. I doubt "Granny Warriors" has incorporated. :)

If they were trying to clear $55,000 in one week via a standard account they should have known this would happen. It automatically sets off red flags for an individual account to have that type of funds transaction, as well it should.

[Marc3579]

I'd say wait and find out from the granny warrior the full details.

[susano]

So what is going to happen to everyone's money?!

That is FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!!


It will be refunded

[worldsupport]

it is NOT paypal's fault..... it is the grannys' fault.

Why do you say that?

[rs3515]

Did grannywarrior know that paypal takes 3-4 days? Let's not jump to judgement but it does suck for all who donated. Thankfully I did not. I would rather concentrate on donating to the campaign and billboards.

Let this be a lesson.

I'm sure they were just trying their best and probably didn't know the full details of how PayPal works. Yes, a lesson learned ... I just want to make sure people know using a title that says "PayPal sabotages NH vote recount" is really misleading.

[susano]

What is AFTF?

[electronicmaji]

we need to sue paypal about this....is there any hope for a recount left?

[JimInNY]

The email claims the account was frozen. That is a far cry from a 3 or 4 day delay in transfering funds.

I know when I withdraw funds from paypal, it tells me that my withdrawal was successful and my funds should be in my bank in 3 to 4 days.

My guess is that the ladies had a backup funder for the fees, and when they tried to withdraw the cash, they found the account frozen. The backup funder probably backed out on hearing the bad news. Of course that is my guess. I'm sure more info will follow.

I wonder though, could fraud have been involved? Could moles have made cntributions and then disputed charges to screw up the effort? hmmmm.....

[Cali4RonPaul]

Not only that but I deal with Paypal thousands of dollars a week sometimes for my BUSINESS.

The email for the paypal is definitely not like a business..

This means the cap for withdrawl is $500 a month!! for personal if the Granny didnt do the Expanded Use Program to it.. :(

[rs3515]

Why do you say that?

Please don't be so negative toward the Granny Warriors. They were just trying their best to get the funds in time. The specifics of how PayPal accounts work can elude even the most tech and business savvy people unless you closely read the details.

[RonPaulFever]

An instant payment with PayPal is just that - instant. Unless the granny warriors used an eCheck, the funds should have been transferred immediately to the recipient. But whoever mentioned the nature and amount of transactions setting off a red flag - that's probably what happened.

[Marc3579]

The recount is out for us, due to the fact we didn't meet the deadline for the state statute.

[JimInNY]

What is AFTF?

Aaron Russo's organization, America - Freedom to Fascism.

I think it is www.aftf.org

[Suzu]

Linda has been trying to sell her RV on ebay, it's been relisted once already cuz she didn't get the reserve she wanted. i noticed when I looked at the auction that she has only one ebay feedback. That probably means her paypal account is pretty new. Paypal always does this to new account holders who suddenly receive large amounts of funds. It's not right, but that's what they do, routinely.

[rs3515]

The email claims the account was frozen. That is a far cry from a 3 or 4 day delay in transfering funds.

Like I said in another reply, it could easily have been frozen because they were trying to do this through a standard account. Unless you have been authorized in advance for larger size transactions, trying to clear $50k in a week is going to create red flags on PayPal's systems.

[susano]

i don't believe this for a second, There should have been a plan for a benefactor to pay the money by 3pm and then be reimbursed by the grannies.
If this was truly so IMPORTANT to them they should have had a plan B.

This is what happens when you leave an important factor in politics to some old biddies that don't know how to use a computer.
ALSO:
they said the secretary required a money order..... there is NO WAY a money order can be issued same day from paypal.

GO TO BED GRANNIES, YOUR 'HELP' IS NOT NEEDED.

Hey, I don't usually say something like this but, go to hell. Those women were in this and on the road from day one and have done more for RP than you ever will, so STFU.

[ty1er]

Paypal did this to me after I sold a bunch of ps3's

It sucked because I invested money I needed to pay for my school tuition.
I shipped them all next day mail and everyone was happy. Paypal just had a policy of freezing an account after a certain amount.

I finally talked to a case manager or something and hinted at seeking a lawyer since pay pal was in effect forcing me to drop out of college! The guy quickly changed his attitude and went through every transaction with me and finally released my assets. This whole thing took near a month!


They screwed me nearly the same way! I bought a bunch of halo 3's with cash and they froze my account with $1600 in it. Their reason was that I didn't have "proof of stock", even though I supplied them with a tracking number for every game. Customer service got me nowhere and I'm forced to wait 6 months to find out how I can recover my money, all because I didn't have a recipient from a cash purchase. Meanwhile Paypal is collecting interest off my money, and has taken their percentage from my sales.

[UK4Paul]

How would the Secretary of State accept payment? By check or money order. So how would anyone expect to pay the Sec of State by Paypal???

[Marc3579]

Hey, I don't usually say something like this but, go to hell. Those women were in this and on the road from day one and have done more for RP than you ever will, so STFU.

+10 ;)

[rs3515]

It's not right, but that's what they do, routinely.

I'm not sure about it being wrong ... they are a corporation and free to set their own rules regarding new accounts. Personally if I was running PayPal, I'd probably want my systems to do the same thing. It would be too easy for some criminals to set up a large number of accounts for money laundering schemes.

[Cali4RonPaul]

An instant payment with PayPal is just that - instant. Unless the granny warriors used an eCheck, the funds should have been transferred immediately to the recipient. But whoever mentioned the nature and amount of transactions setting off a red flag - that's probably what happened.

The Secretary of State of New Hampshire does not accept PayPals. So its not instant.

[dirka]

I have fucking hated Paypal since the first time I got scammed by them!!! FUCK Paypal

[firebirdnation]

Hey, I don't usually say something like this but, go to hell. Those women were in this and on the road from day one and have done more for RP than you ever will, so STFU.

+1

[rs3515]

Hey, I don't usually say something like this but, go to hell. Those women were in this and on the road from day one and have done more for RP than you ever will, so STFU.

Thanks for saying what needs to be said. ;)

[Kotin]

they are old?

[susano]

www.paypalsucks.com

You were warned.


That's right. I've done a lot of buying on eBay and I would NEVER use PayPal. I do believe they are crooked. They also want way too much personal info.

[tyler477]

Hey, I don't usually say something like this but, go to hell. Those women were in this and on the road from day one and have done more for RP than you ever will, so STFU.

....

[rs3515]

The Secretary of State of New Hampshire does not accept PayPals. So its not instant.

Yep ... I'm sure you're right. The funds would need to be transferred to a personal bank account, then a check written out to the Secretary of State after the funds had cleared. Also if you were trying to clear $55,000 into a personal bank account from PayPal, I could easily bet the local bank would put a 10 day hold on the check.

[Cali4RonPaul]

Honestly how did this happen, where were the back up plans, as I said before it takes 3-4 days to transfer over to her bank account..

So clearly she should not have been soliciting funds a day before the deadline, without this being a sure project.

Simple as that..

[Airborn]

oh wow, alots of pissed off folks here tomorrow. People will be claiming that the grannys should have known this, but yet no one else brought it up before it happened.

[susano]

It automatically sets off red flags for an individual account to have that type of funds transaction, as well it should.


Oh, reeeeally? And, why is that?

[tyler477]

Honestly how did this happen, where were the back up plans, as I said before it takes 3-4 days to transfer over to her bank account..

So clearly she should not have been soliciting funds a day before, without this being a sure project.

Simple as that..

EXACTLY! this is NOT paypal's fault is is the fault of the GRANNIES! if anyone should be sued it is them for their incompetence.

[Paulitical Correctness]

What's with the "deadline" anyway?

Raising this much money for a recount is very astonishing, for them to deny it because Paypal screwed up is bollocks.

I was neutral about the recount, but it's remarkable that people raised the money so quickly so I'm actually pretty PO'd.

:mad:

[Cali4RonPaul]

Oh, reeeeally? And, why is that?

Yes it does it sets off red flags, Its in their algorithms.. Just as if you use your credit card to make a number of large purchases in a single day.. they can put a temporary freeze if its not in the normal pattern of use. They have the power. :(

[sockmonkey70@yahoo.com]

oh wow, alots of pissed off folks here tomorrow. People will be claiming that the grannys should have known this, but yet no one else brought it up before it happened.

+9000

This is the most valid point I have seen so far.

[John Kimble]

Why are people getting upset?
Everyone knows DieBold (PES) is not trustworthy (OHIO 2004), and the attention gained from this only proves that multiple hand counts from trusted people is needed with no corporate intervention.
We cant trust a private corp with something as important as electing our president.
The money can always be used on the 21st.
Maybe even a check given in person to avoid any double fees.

[rs3515]

i was merely stating that the blame should NOT be put onto paypal as it was NOT paypals fault but the GRANNYS'.

sorry it was so hard for you to grasp that marc.

Does it make you feel better to have someone to blame? Remind me the next time you do something wrong so I can blame you.

Yes it is possible the grannys may not have made the right choice. But what were YOU doing in the past week to help them? Did you have a conversation with them to go over the rules, regulations and policies of PayPal's business practices? Yeah, I thought so. :rolleyes:

[worldsupport]

Fuck you, you little twerp. These ladies are friends of Carol Paul (Ron's wife). Care to dis her, too? You need to learn some respect of others, especially older people.

The poetic justice is that PayPal fucked you over! So much much for your internet savvy - asshole.

Firey women rule!!! :D

[Cali4RonPaul]

More info:

PayPal Freeze out
We have sent off the money to a newly opened bank account in NH opened by the former Attorney General for this purpose. The funds left our account and we thought it was a done deal.

As soon as I sent out the message the money was on its way we received a big donation of $1000 and it got flagged as a suspicious entry.? below is the actual paypal notice:

Inquiry by PayPal - Case ID: PP-403-499-846
Status:Waiting For Seller's ResponseTransaction ID:00S01027UD303372FBuyer Name & Email:Jerjis Alajaji, jerjisalajaji@yahoo.comTransaction Amount:$1,000.00 USDTransaction Date:Jan. 15, 2008

more
Anyway the money did not go to the new account it went back in my account. Now we hope to have it straight by in the morning and we can talk the Sec of state into accepting the money.

Bev Harris and L Landis were at the original meeting with Albert and Eric and said they were actually beligerent and demanding and really pissed off the SOS with their demands for computer parts being examined etc. They had already agreed to allow us to video the recount and were co operating until the BlackBox ladies showed up and demanded more and more. Albert said he hugged the SOS when they left and asked him to please not hold a grudge against us but he then demaded the money immediately before 3 PM. Hopefully we can get him to change his mind with some nice phone calls letting him know we are not accusing him of any fraud just we want to have our votes recounted.

* January 15 10:50pm

1200466171000
more update
That is the entire story. We did not meet the total amout we needed but I raided my account, my husbands account and our savings plus borrowed a few dollars to make up the difference since I knew we would meet the goals with the way you were all supporting this.

All the donations will be returned as soon as we can. There was some expenditures which we will have to figure out how to work out.. the air plane tickets, the filing fee $2,000 and hopefully a few dollars for Albert for his time and trouble. He is a working man and has lost some valuable work time due to this .

It may also be a smart thing to just keep this money aside in case we need it for Michigan or another state. this is definately not the end. Rose has already seen some misdeeds in Mi. The machines were broken and people were told to just put their ballots in a box and they would be run later when the machines were working again? sounds like something not right there too.

[danberkeley]

for all you conspiracy buffs!!!! paypal is owned by eBay, whose CEO is Meg Whitman. Meg Whitman was VP at Bain & Company. Mitt Romney was an executive at Bain & Company. HA!!!!

[worldsupport]

for all you conspiracy buffs!!!! paypal is owned by eBay, whose CEO is Meg Whitman. Meg Whitman was VP at Bain & Company. Mitt Romney was an executive at Bain & Company. HA!!!!

the plot thickens. WTF??

[CountryB4Party]

Yes it does it sets off red flags, Its in their algorithms.. Just as if you use your credit card to make a number of large purchases in a single day.. they can put a temporary freeze if its not in the normal pattern of use. They have the power. :(

So does your credit card company and the bank. This is SOP.

[jlaker]

I'd say wait and find out from the granny warrior the full details.

I say the samething but this crap makes it hard to sleep:(

[Swmorgan77]

Why do you say that?

I work for eBay, the company that owns Paypal though I don't work directly for Paypal. I agree that my instinct is this was some oversight of the Grannys. Until I know otherwise, I will lean in that direction. Having 55k go through an account could definitely set off red flags especially if it isn't a premiere business account. They should have been doing transfers on an hourly basis or several times daily.

Did they have a premium account? Did they realize transfers take 3-4 business days?

There are a lot of questions here.

[Marc3579]

I work for eBay, the company that owns Paypal though I don't work directly for Paypal. I agree that my instinct is this was some oversight of the Grannys. Until I know otherwise, I will lean in that direction. Having 55k go through an account could definitely set off red flags especially if it isn't a premiere business account. They should have been doing transfers on an hourly basis or several times daily.

Did they have a premium account? Did they realize transfers take 3-4 business days?

There are a lot of questions here.

They may not have known about that or they may have had another finical backer who backed out when they found out PayPal froze the account.

[JimInNY]

YES , but what does this have to do with people putting blame on paypal for the wrong reasons???? there is NO possible way for them to have gotten a money order the SAME day from a paypal acct. For them to think that was IRRESPONSIBLE and almost TREASONOUS to the campaign.

Did you donate?

[UK4Paul]

Hi Folks

After you guys and gals have finished bickering, I'd like to ask some valid questions and suggest a valid suggestion.

(1) How come someone wasn't ready with a check for the Secretary of State well before the deadline? After all, the Sec of State does not accept Paypal.

(2) Personally I think the money should be kept in case we need another recount somewhere else. Who agrees? (At least if we need a recount elsewhere, a check can be produced instantly :) )

I donated this money to this chipin with the specific purpose of acquiring a recount, so if it's not able to be used on this recount, I'd like it reserved in case this situation arises again.

[susano]

are you suggesting that Tyler acts like this girl?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzG_oHDLZdc

Oh, hahaha!

[Marc3579]

YES , but what does this have to do with people putting blame on paypal for the wrong reasons???? there is NO possible way for them to have gotten a money order the SAME day from a paypal acct. For them to think that was IRRESPONSIBLE and almost TREASONOUS to the campaign.

HaHaHa the campaign has spoken they weren't seeking a recount in NH. Care to try again?

[amy31416]

I don't care whose fault it is, I'm just very disappointed that there will not be a recount.

At least the Dems had it together to do one, right?

[CountryB4Party]

YES , but what does this have to do with people putting blame on paypal for the wrong reasons???? there is NO possible way for them to have gotten a money order the SAME day from a paypal acct. For them to think that was IRRESPONSIBLE and almost TREASONOUS to the campaign.

What makes you think my question had any relevance to the PayPal issue? I was quite concise with my statement of intent.

[buffalokid777]

Greetings,

Paypal has been used for political purposes.

I am someone who have sold on ebay for years.

40% of my business was from ebay.

I sold on ebay for 6 years, no problems....99.9% feedback

That was untuil several months ago...when i decided to support Ron Paul.

On several sites, I decided to make pro RP posts, using pictures that were hosted on my Auction manager.

Once i made those posts....I had tons of people from outside the country buy things from me off ebay.......

I sent them out....but surprisingly everone outside the US said those items never arrived.

Paypal froze my account since the purchasers never received the items.

The people who paid for insurance, i had proof.........so those peoples claims were denied since i had proof i sent it....

But the people who didnt pay for insurance,,,,i was ripped off nearly $800 USD since they claimed they didn't get the items i sent even thougfh I did. I chalk this up to a learning experience.

1.) Don't trust paypal. If you take paypal as payment for something you sell online, have PROOF you sent the item out. Otherwise if someone disputes they received the item, if you don't have proof you sent it, you will lose your money......

the burden of proof is on the seller, and buyers in other countries take advantage of this.

So if you support RP and you sell online

1.) make sure every buyer has to pay for insurance and delivery confirmation to avoid problems......

2.) anyone who is not willing to pay for insurance and delivery confirmation is not worth having as a customer

[Edu]

NH people, RECALL that Sec of State, NOW! Show them we won't put up with this, the law doesn't say you have to come up with the funds in one day, that's insane.
This is the guy who certifies the vote. It's no wonder he doesn't want the fraud exposed.
It only takes a small group to do this, I have seen it done with a group of 40 people. They hate recalls, they are done after that and have to go get a real productive job.
For those of you who think there's nothing going on here, go back to sleep.

[lastnymleft]

They should contact Llepard, asking him to write out the check for the recount. The grannywarriors money can then be paypaled to him, or he can receive a check in a few days time.

[susano]

for all you conspiracy buffs!!!! paypal is owned by eBay, whose CEO is Meg Whitman. Meg Whitman was VP at Bain & Company. Mitt Romney was an executive at Bain & Company. HA!!!!

Interesting. I knew eBay bought them but didn't know about the Romney connection. Ya never know.......

[rs3515]

They should contact Llepard, asking him to write out the check for the recount. The grannywarriors money can then be paypaled to him, or he can receive a check in a few days time.

Why Llepard? You didn't have $55,600 just laying around? :)

[Taco John]

Thanks for the efforts Granny Warriors... Don't listen to the kids around here. It's not like they did anything.

[Marc3579]

I'm grateful for their attempts taco I think they did great!

[Cindy]

There should have been a plan for a benefactor to pay the money by 3pm and then be reimbursed by the grannies.


That's what should have been arranged from the get go right there.

Would'ves , should'ves and could'ves don't help now.

I hope you all get your money back and more know now what to do for next time when money needed somewhere has a deadline and it's being collected through pay pal.

I thought Kucinich was launching a recount, or is that just for the democrats?

[derdy]

Got this just now in an AFTF email from Cali AFTF:

I'm cancelling my accout IMMEDIATELY and sending a very lengthy email as to why I'll never do business with them again!

In the free market, pathetic BS like this is what makes companies sink or swim.

Only in a rigged market can this shit take place!

[Marc3579]

Kucinich will only affect the Dem's.

[UK4Paul]

That's what should have been arranged from the get go right there.

Would'ves , should'ves and could'ves don't help now.

I hope you all get your money back and more know now what to do for next time when money needed somewhere has a deadline and it's being collected through pay pal.

I thought Kucinich was launching a recount, or is that just for the democrats?

Hi Cindy

On a separate thread, I've proposed that the Granny Warriors keep the money, in case a recount is needed elsewhere.

The recount is going ahead on the Democrats side though for sure.

[susano]

I don't care whose fault it is, I'm just very disappointed that there will not be a recount.

At least the Dems had it together to do one, right?

Look, this was done on the fly. Dennis Kucinich called for the Dem recount. Big difference.

I think it woul dbe great if the money just stays with the Granny Warriors, either way - recount or not. There will be more opportunities to question results. Bet dat.

[Marc3579]

I agree SusanO, or keep it in case we need another recount in another state. This was a done on the fly moment, and we'll see what happens.

[Mckarnin]

An instant payment with PayPal is just that - instant. Unless the granny warriors used an eCheck, the funds should have been transferred immediately to the recipient. But whoever mentioned the nature and amount of transactions setting off a red flag - that's probably what happened.

Transfers to one's Paypal account are almost instant (unless like you said it's an e-check) but the tranfer from Paypal to a bank account that a check can be written from takes around 3 business days....believe me...we deal with this over at www.ronpaulblimp.com daily. :-)

[susano]

Why Llepard? You didn't have $55,600 just laying around? :)

Really! What's this, "let's call Larry, he's got money!"

JEEZ.

[UK4Paul]

Yes, I also agree that the Granny Warriors should keep the money IN RESERVE, in the likely event that we need it again for a recount elsewhere.

[susano]

On the Granny Warriors original post, they said if they couldn't get it done, they would refund everyone. So, anyone who wants their money back will get it.

The fees for these recounts are outrageous. They vary from one state to the next. Nobody without big bucks can anticipate what they're in for. Grannys found out the hard way. Hopefully, NH will allow the dealine to be waived.

[Cali4RonPaul]

Yes, I also agree that the Granny Warriors should keep the money IN RESERVE, in the likely event that we need it again for a recount elsewhere.

I actually think they should refund that money, if you solicit donations for a given purpose and fail to deliver on that purpose the funds will need to be returned unless permitted to keep.

Quite Frankly the Granny Warriors might be super swell ladies with their hearts in the right place.. but that does not make them competent to withhold finances and allocate them to a given purpose.

Some supporter groups are tried and tested others are not.. RonPaulBlimp Can deliver, Operation Call for Paul can deliver. Granny Warriors could not. Give the money back to the people its their money.

[Marc3579]

Wow they didn't deliver? A lot of finger pointing towards them, it seems like no one here has ever made a mistake or over-looked the fine print...

[tyler477]

I actually think they should refund that money, if you solicit donations for a given purpose and fail to deliver on that purpose the funds will need to be returned unless permitted to keep.

Quite Frankly the Granny Warriors might be super swell ladies with their hearts in the right place.. but that does not make them competent to withhold finances and allocate them to a given purpose.

Some supporter groups are tried and tested others are not.. RonPaulBlimp Can deliver, Operation Call for Paul can deliver. Granny Warriors could not. Give the money back to the people its their money.

finally someone who knows who to blame, rather than a bunch of flamers who blame PAYPAL who did nothing wrong.

[Suzu]

You can't refund money out of a frozen account. Paypal could keep the money for six months, or forever. They've been known to do worse. According to one of the anti-paypal websites out there, they've done this to at least 7% of their customers.

I'm very careful in my use of Paypal. They froze my account in 2001 over a $20 transaction... The seller, unbeknownst to me, was involved in some sort of shady deal and got his account frozen. He wanted to refund my $20 and paypal wouldn't let him, so I did a chargeback, then Paypal froze *my* account!

[tyler477]

Wow they didn't deliver? A lot of finger pointing towards them, it seems like no one here has ever made a mistake or over-looked the fine print...

marc, they made a mistake, which might have cost RP the election, and cost supporters a good deal of cash that they could have donated in the bomb.
who else is to blame huh? no one else had access to the funds.... so it is pretty damn obvious.

[susano]

I actually think they should refund that money, if you solicit donations for a given purpose and fail to deliver on that purpose the funds will need to be returned unless permitted to keep.

Quite Frankly the Granny Warriors might be super swell ladies with their hearts in the right place.. but that does not make them competent to withhold finances and allocate them to a given purpose.

Some supporter groups are tried and tested others are not.. RonPaulBlimp Can deliver, Operation Call for Paul can deliver. Granny Warriors could not. Give the money back to the people its their money.

They stated up front that they would refund anyone if the recount doesn't get done. I agree with you. Refunds or voluntary contribution to future efforts, only.


BTW, to all - I couldn't get over the irony of PayPal and the "red flag" of large transfers. We are, afterall, the Ron Paul Revolution and we HATE banksters. They pull this shit all the time - be it for our "security", the war on drugs (we might be money laundering drug lords), the PATRIOT Act, or any other of the myriad BOGUS reasons that anyone manipulates, withholds and tracks our financial transactions. I HATE PAYPAL. When I was eBaying, and looked at their terms, I said NO WAY. PayPal is another intrusive insitution who violates privacy and abuses clients.

You KNOW what to do.

[UK4Paul]

Instead of playing the BLAME GAME... let's come up with SOLUTIONS.

(1) First, it is by no means certain that we won't get a recount.

(2) Worst case scenario, I would prefer they held on to my money in case we need a recount elsewhere. However, I'd also like them to BE PREPARED and ABLE to present a check when necessary.

I certainly don't blame them, but I am surprised nobody was able to present a check by the deadline. Does Ron Paul have no supporters wealthy enough to offer $65K?

(I'm flate broke. :( )

[Cali4RonPaul]

It would have been best if they did a Operation Call for Paul; Similar Financial goals.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bdxs3kqm2Fw

Pay for it, fund it yourself, and we your fellow patriots will help you recoup your losses.

[susano]

Instead of playing the BLAME GAME... let's come up with SOLUTIONS.

(1) First, it is by no means certain that we won't get a recount.

(2) Worst case scenario, I would prefer they held on to my money in case we need a recount elsewhere. However, I'd also like them to BE PREPARED and ABLE to present a check when necessary.

I certainly don't blame them, but I am surprised nobody was able to present a check by the deadline. Does Ron Paul have no supporters wealthy enough to offer $65K?

(I'm flate broke. :( )


Not everyone was on board with a recount. NH was the first primary, afterall, and I don't think a lot of people wanted to jump right in yelling fraud. The obvious fraud is in the Clinton/Obama race. Kucinich will have to uncover it.


Remember, recounts are dealing with GOVERNMENT. All rules and fees vary, and many of them are uncertain. I guess this is a learn as you go deal. I'll bet the NH SOS had to look up the rules & regs.

[nbhadja]

"I am in Michigan and I need to find a lawyer to sue Paypal. Any advice would be appreicated. I recieved an out of the blue notice last week that paypal was closing my account - not sure why -gold power seller 3000+ positive feedback, and were freezing $7600.00 I have in my money market for 180 days. I am a single mother of two going through a divorce which involves domestic violence and now all of my money is gone. I need help!"

Paypal=badddddddd

[susano]

finally someone who knows who to blame, rather than a bunch of flamers who blame PAYPAL who did nothing wrong.


They screwed me nearly the same way! I bought a bunch of halo 3's with cash and they froze my account with $1600 in it. Their reason was that I didn't have "proof of stock", even though I supplied them with a tracking number for every game. Customer service got me nowhere and I'm forced to wait 6 months to find out how I can recover my money, all because I didn't have a recipient from a cash purchase. Meanwhile Paypal is collecting interest off my money, and has taken their percentage from my sales.


lol

[Cindy]

Hi Cindy

On a separate thread, I've proposed that the Granny Warriors keep the money, in case a recount is needed elsewhere.

The recount is going ahead on the Democrats side though for sure.

I think anyone who wants a refund should be able to get one and the grannies said they would do it. The concern is what will paypal do with the freeze status and for how long.

Of course anyone who wants them to keep a fund for a future recount need should let them know that.

Not sure how a recount is going to help Dennis anyway. My understanding is that Hillary bussed in non residents around the clock, who only had to sign afidavits swearing that they became residents of the state that day.

[susano]

"I am in Michigan and I need to find a lawyer to sue Paypal. Any advice would be appreicated. I recieved an out of the blue notice last week that paypal was closing my account - not sure why -gold power seller 3000+ positive feedback, and were freezing $7600.00 I have in my money market for 180 days. I am a single mother of two going through a divorce which involves domestic violence and now all of my money is gone. I need help!"

Paypal=badddddddd

These stories have been around for years. PayPal is a criminal racket, imo. A bankster hybrid.

[susano]

I think anyone who wants a refund should be able to get one and the grannies said they would do it. The concern is what will paypal do with the freeze status and for how long.

Of course anyone who wants them to keep a fund for a future recount need should let them know that.

Not sure how a recount is going to help Dennis anyway. My understanding is that Hillary bussed in non residents around the clock, who only had to sign afidavits swearing that they became residents of the state that day.


Dennis didn't do it for his results. He made that clear. He did it to uncover vote fraud.

[Onyx]

I have heard that they had someone who wanted to finance the $60,000 at the last minute when he heard that paypal froze the money, but the state secretery wouldn't accept it.

I've also heard that there is no law that says they have to pay it by any date, only that the person who asks for a recount must pay for the recount.

If they can't wait a day, then something is up and they obviously don't want a recount.

[Cindy]

Dennis didn't do it for his results. He made that clear. He did it to uncover vote fraud.

Right and I think he is looking in the wrong place. Word on the street has it that the sort of vote fraud Hillary committed, was in the form of bussing in loads of non residents. They say the Hillary voter busses, were coming in for drop offs and pick ups to polling places every 7 minutes.

This would also explain why the Pollsters can not explain how they were so off with Hillarys numbers when polling likely NH voters.

A recount will not reveal that sort of fraud.

[free.alive]

well, now you know.

better to know than not.

[nbhadja]

http://www.merchantinc.com/

It is way better than corrupt Pisspal.

[jupiter]

Did any of you consider that this whole grannywarriors may be a fraud?

Sort of like the "Roy Jones Jr." Ron Paul ad?

Be careful of who you trust with your money.

[rfbz]

This happened to somethingawful.com when they had a hurricane Katrina relief fund (http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2005/09/04/paypal-freezes-something-awfuls-relief-fund). Their account was frozen when they received $20,000 in less than half a day.

[Marc3579]

Did any of you consider that this whole grannywarriors may be a fraud?

Sort of like the "Roy Jones Jr." Ron Paul ad?

Be careful of who you trust with your money.

Woah partner... I suggest you rethink before you go accusing Granny Warriors of FRAUD... They are friends of Carol Paul, yeah their gonna commit fraud... Care to espouse more bs?

[susano]

Right and I think he is looking in the wrong place. Word on the street has it that the sort of vote fraud Hillary committed, was in the form of bussing in loads of non residents. They say the Hillary voter busses, were coming in for drop offs and pick ups to polling places every 7 minutes.

This would also explain why the Pollsters can not explain how they were so off with Hillarys numbers when polling likely NH voters.

A recount will not reveal that sort of fraud.

I heard there lots of cars from Massachuesetts (sp!), as well. I don't know if the story about signing an affidavit saying that you'll move there is accurate. A caller to Rush Limbaugh claimed that, but I looked at the NH.gov site and the regs were more strict. The ditto head said it's still easy to committ fraud, so I don't know. To get to the bottom of that, you'd have to examine each voter! I do believe it's possible that fishy stuff will turn up with the machine counts. Proving anything is another matter. What's to prove with a memory card? Can those be examined? Then, they could be switched. What about the chain of custody with the ballots?

[susano]

http://www.merchantinc.com/

It is way better than corrupt Pisspal.

LOL, at "Pisspal".

[susano]

Did any of you consider that this whole grannywarriors may be a fraud?

Sort of like the "Roy Jones Jr." Ron Paul ad?

Be careful of who you trust with your money.

jupiter, they're well known around the revolution. Ron Paul road warriors in a big motor home who have campaigned all over the country.

[Dave Pedersen]

What is AFTF?

America: Freedom to Fascism

A film by Aaron Russo

[Edu]

I am waiting for the lawsuit!

It's easy to file, only small filing fee normally under $100, paperwork is simple and some legal people here on the forums know how to do that. Each voter could sue one at a time. I'm sure anyone who donated could sue, and who cares, file it anyway, send a message.

The SOS needs to be recalled. He should be doing a recount on principal alone. NH people need to start a recall petition right now.

The SOS needs to know a recall will be done if he doesn't do whats right, here's info:

Elections@sos.state.nh.us

Secretary of State - William M. Gardner
Senior Deputy Secretary of State - Robert P. Ambrose
Deputy Secretary of State - David M. Scanlan

State House, Room 204, Concord, N.H. 03301
Phone: 603-271-3242 Fax: 603-271-6316
Email: Elections@sos.state.nh.us

The law is "RSA 660":
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/lxiii/660/660-mrg.htm

"the candidate shall pay the fees as provided in RSA 660:2, III and shall agree in writing with the secretary of state to pay any additional costs of the recount."

Nothing about a 1 day pay or else timeframe. NOTHING! Look for yourself.

This is what the SOS MUST do: 660:4 "Upon satisfactory application for a recount as provided in RSA 660:1, the secretary of state shall begin the process of recounting the ballots on the Wednesday following the deadline for requesting a recount."

660:1 has been satisfied, the "agree to pay" part has been submitted. NOTHING about any time limit to pay in the law.

You should be really upset about this, steaming mad, American votes aren't being counted properly!

(and 1% difference is all we need to get the money returned it looks like)

Did I post the email? Elections@sos.state.nh.us
Did I post the fax? 603-271-6316

[saahmed]

Paypal has screwed me over many a time.

[LibertyEagle]

PayPal has a looooong history of doing this. I knew, sooner or later, a big fundraiser was going to be frozen on PayPal.

FYI, (I think) PayPal gets to keep all the money. =\

No, they do not. :rolleyes:

[devil21]

No, they do not. :rolleyes:

Yes they do actually. There have been people complaining about Paypal ever since it was born. Google is your friend. I don't buy or sell anything on Ebay anymore just because of Ebay and Paypal's privacy and security policy.

[leglock]

Someone should have read the TOS.

[constituent]

Did any of you consider that this whole grannywarriors may be a fraud?


well, i just don't know what to say about that


:: roflmao ::

[ClayTrainor]

Dam, i wish i knew about this paypal crap before the deadline.

I would put 65k of my own funds down for the recount, if the people who run the chipin promised to give the chipin money to me.

I dunno if that's legal for a canadian to do, but i would've done it if it is, too bad it's too late :(

[Geronimo]

I'd say wait and find out from the granny warrior the full details.
http://questforfairtrialinconcordnh.blogspot.com/2008/01/nh-recount-status-update.html

[speciallyblend]

let me know asap,ill cancel my paypal account if needed

[slamhead]

Same happened with one of our meetup member's chipin accounts. They had 15,000 and it was frozen for two weeks. It is a paypal fraud prevention. If a new account signs up ans starts getting a lot of payments they automatically freeze it.

[NeoRayden]

I have dealt very sucessfully with paypal for many years so what I have to say should not be taken lightly or blown off.

PayPal more than likely froze the account for a TOS violation regarding the use of the PayPal account for other purposes besides to make purchases on EBay. According to the TOS this is the only thing PayPal may be used for. On top of that it was also probably frozen days after the transaction occured to withdraw funds from the account. This action would have triggered a flag and they would have stopped the payment until further information was given to PayPal such as a FAXED copy of your ID, utility bill, phone bill, social security card, and many other means of proving who you are and showing a supplier list for the products that were sold. In this case they could not do that and the funds would be frozen for a minimum of three months. At which time their account can be deleted and the funds will then return to the senders or PayPal will take them like they useually do.

PayPal is not under any obligation since they are not FDIC insured to return the money you deposit with them.

To the person that stated you need to be incorporated to have an EIN... That is completely false. I have several EIN's and operate Sole Propietorship's, Non-Profit Association's, an LLP and 3 501c3 organizations. None of these are Incorporated and all have separate EIN's.

Also it does not take 10 days to setup a business paypal account. I setup many before I got tired of losing money to them and took my business elsewhere. After which time I finally recovered the money they stole from me and never when back. Anyway it takes maybe 3 days. That is tops because while you are waiting for them to send verification to your bank you can be sending in your other information they require.

This will be one long battle before anyone recieves their money back and I feel sorry for anyone the contributed. Next time use moneybookers or one of the digital gold currencies avalible. Also if you go to: http://www.wiredplastic.com you can signup for their prepaid card. This card gives you the oppurtunity to accept payments via western union and moneygram at a reduced rate of $4.95 / transaction. It also allows you to send a wire transfer to and from a bank account and any visa/mastercard teller or atm.

[prlgrl]

This makes no sense, why did the funds stay there, it takes 3-4 days for a PayPal transfer to a bank account, so Granny Warriors should have withdrawn amounts prior.

Which means that they wouldn't have had enough in the account to transfer 3-4 days ago. Did they have something set up where they didn't have to abide by that rule? This could be that someone overlooked it; just speculating. We'll know more later.

[NeoRayden]

It seems as though from the news report is that the $2000.00 they already paid is all that is required right now and the SOS is willing to work them through it. It was suppose to be a wire transfer to it would not have taken 3-4 days. It would have taken at most 1-2.

[Artsy74]

Paypal is nothing but a crook company. If you haven't been affected by them yet, hang in there you will be. They freeze account on regular basis, it's a way for them to make money. They can even freeze your account after YEARS of using them.

They are a private organization pretending to be a online bank, they are not regulated by anyone, and have no one to hold them accountable.

Exactly like the Fed, which we all know all love.

They have stolen from thousands, and thousands of people, and have to this day class action lawsuits against them for fraud, and theft. It's a regular practice for them to freeze accounts, and never give the money back.

I never use them, and never will.

http://www.paypalwarning.com/

[syborius]

i don't believe this for a second, There should have been a plan for a benefactor to pay the money by 3pm and then be reimbursed by the grannies.
If this was truly so IMPORTANT to them they should have had a plan B.

This is what happens when you leave an important factor in politics to some old biddies that don't know how to use a computer.
ALSO:
they said the secretary required a money order..... there is NO WAY a money order can be issued same day from paypal.

GO TO BED GRANNIES, YOUR 'HELP' IS NOT NEEDED.

I second that opinion. This is a load of shit. Transfer takes longer anyway..If they had the funds a benefactor steps in and pays...

You can not free fools from the chains they revere- Voltaire.

[dkim68]

Why did PayPal freeze the account?

[leglock]

Why did PayPal freeze the account?

TOS

[MadEmperor]

LOL, this is VERY COMMON.

Paypal has often frozen accounts, and tried to steal the funds. Look up paypal sucks on google.

[speciallyblend]

I have dealt very sucessfully with paypal for many years so what I have to say should not be taken lightly or blown off.

PayPal more than likely froze the account for a TOS violation regarding the use of the PayPal account for other purposes besides to make purchases on EBay. According to the TOS this is the only thing PayPal may be used for. On top of that it was also probably frozen days after the transaction occured to withdraw funds from the account. This action would have triggered a flag and they would have stopped the payment until further information was given to PayPal such as a FAXED copy of your ID, utility bill, phone bill, social security card, and many other means of proving who you are and showing a supplier list for the products that were sold. In this case they could not do that and the funds would be frozen for a minimum of three months. At which time their account can be deleted and the funds will then return to the senders or PayPal will take them like they useually do.

PayPal is not under any obligation since they are not FDIC insured to return the money you deposit with them.

To the person that stated you need to be incorporated to have an EIN... That is completely false. I have several EIN's and operate Sole Propietorship's, Non-Profit Association's, an LLP and 3 501c3 organizations. None of these are Incorporated and all have separate EIN's.

Also it does not take 10 days to setup a business paypal account. I setup many before I got tired of losing money to them and took my business elsewhere. After which time I finally recovered the money they stole from me and never when back. Anyway it takes maybe 3 days. That is tops because while you are waiting for them to send verification to your bank you can be sending in your other information they require.

This will be one long battle before anyone recieves their money back and I feel sorry for anyone the contributed. Next time use moneybookers or one of the digital gold currencies avalible. Also if you go to: http://www.wiredplastic.com you can signup for their prepaid card. This card gives you the oppurtunity to accept payments via western union and moneygram at a reduced rate of $4.95 / transaction. It also allows you to send a wire transfer to and from a bank account and any visa/mastercard teller or atm.

good post but it reminds me ,im under no obligation to ever use paypal again,its nonsense and if it isnt cleared up asap by paypal ,then ill cancel my account,but thanks for your post

[readyja]

GO TO BED GRANNIES, YOUR 'HELP' IS NOT NEEDED.

I didn't see you organize anything.

[Myerz]

This just proves that a HQ is needed for the supporters.....a command center for the revolution.....for all of you screaming...but this movement is completely against that or those of you who have control issues or lack there of.....this is what happens.......just a bunch of chickens running around with your heads cut off. I have mentioned it early on we need some organization..but no, people have to freak out and scream......."that's what we are fighting against"...AGGGHHHH!! All of you have no clue!

[fireworks_god]

I sent Paypal a note saying they need to be tried for treason. ;)

I also told them that in a world where you can get a Visa debit in every Wal*Mart country, I'm looking forward to a bright future with no Paypal. :D

[ConstitutionGal]

Seeing as how I've used Paypal for years now (both for Ebay and to accept on-line payments for several private websites), I would have to think that they froze the account because it is new AND suddendly starting receiving tons of small donations (usualy a red - flag of potential credit card fraud. remember when the campaign got accused of fraud because of those small donations that were done by credit card thieves?).

I would have thought that the granny warriors or someone associated with this venture would have done their home-work before embarking on this recount and found out that it takes 2 - 4 business days to transfer funds from a Paypal account into a bank account AND that there are daily limits on how much you can transfer at one time (espeically with new accounts)! For the first couple of years that my account was open, I could only transfer something like $300 every so many days. Also, Paypal is not just for Ebay. If you sign up for a business account, you can set up shopping carts on websites, use it to process off-line payments, take donations and even process payments for non-tangible items like services. To plan on using PayPal for a venture like the re-count that was so time-sensitive to begin with just shows that someone didn't adequetely do their homework.

I'm not trying to let PayPal off the hook here but I AM saying that not all the blame for this mess can be laid at their door.

[SWATH]

Is there anything better than paypal for tranferring funds, making purchases, and selling stuff? I hate paypal too but I use them out of convienience.

[Redcard]

Is there anything better than paypal for tranferring funds, making purchases, and selling stuff? I hate paypal too but I use them out of convienience.

Western Union.

[ConstitutionGal]

Western Union.

Only if you don't mind illegal aliens. Western Union is owned by First Data and their largest profit sector is illegal aliens using it to wire money back to their countries of origin. Money transfers from the U.S. are now Mexico's second highest source of revenue BTW :eek: First Data regularly have folks go and speak and LULAC and MALDEF conventions and the like.

[Falseflagop]

PAYPAL owned by GOOGLE which rumors have it owned by CIA/govt. You decide if this freeze was coincidence or Deliberate!

UNREAL the shit we contend with, Kuninich not allowed to speak and Thompson&CNN saying he finished 4th!! All a conspiracy to slow the RP Revolution!

[Redcard]

Only if you don't mind illegal aliens. Western Union is owned by First Data and their largest profit sector is illegal aliens using it to wire money back to their countries of origin. Money transfers from the U.S. are now Mexico's second highest source of revenue BTW :eek: First Data regularly have folks go and speak and LULAC and MALDEF conventions and the like.

Oh , screw illegal aliens.

Western Union has been around for over 156 years. They've been doing this money transfer thing forever.

You want someone reputable, then use Western Union.

[Redcard]

PAYPAL owned by GOOGLE which rumors have it owned by CIA/govt. You decide if this freeze was coincidence or Deliberate!

UNREAL the shit we contend with, Kuninich not allowed to speak and Thompson&CNN saying he finished 4th!! All a conspiracy to slow the RP Revolution!

Paypal isn't owned by Google.

[rfbz]

Paypal is owned by Ebay, not Google

[Join The Paul Side]

Time for the Grannies to get a lawyer and sue PayPal.

[jaybone]

No, Time for Albert Howard to get a lawyer and file a motion for an injuncion against the secretary of state. Sue paypal and we will wait several years and see absolutely nothing for it.

The SoS should be compelled by a NH judge to offer a more reasonable time deadline than 24-hours. I tried to get a certified check to buy a car once in 24-hours and unless you have a GREAT bank, it is nearly impossible

[Join The Paul Side]

So just let PayPal get away with it and hijack all that money huh? You don't make any sense.

[Stoli]

I can't believe the trash talking directed at the granny's. I'm hoping the people doing it are ignorant to what these lady's have done for the campaign

If you need a little history on the work and sacrifices they have endured,check out their web site.
http://www.grannywarriors.com/

[Redcard]

So just let PayPal get away with it and hijack all that money huh? You don't make any sense.

Terms of service is pretty much unavoidable here. Suing paypal will take MONTHS, if not years, and it's already been done before. You're likely to get tossed out of court just on a matter of previous litigation.

It's better to enjoin the SoS from executing the deadline, work within paypal to get the money released, and then purchase the cashier's check and get the recount going. Then, don't use paypal again :P

[jenninlouisiana]

PayPal has 50 thousand rules about how it transfers money. A chip in should never have been used (though I don't know how else they could have done it short of everyone overnighting money).

Also, is grannywarrior a PAC? She's going to have to be one now.

[Jerome]

wow

[jenninlouisiana]

Seeing as how I've used Paypal for years now (both for Ebay and to accept on-line payments for several private websites), I would have to think that they froze the account because it is new AND suddendly starting receiving tons of small donations (usualy a red - flag of potential credit card fraud. remember when the campaign got accused of fraud because of those small donations that were done by credit card thieves?).

I would have thought that the granny warriors or someone associated with this venture would have done their home-work before embarking on this recount and found out that it takes 2 - 4 business days to transfer funds from a Paypal account into a bank account AND that there are daily limits on how much you can transfer at one time (espeically with new accounts)! For the first couple of years that my account was open, I could only transfer something like $300 every so many days. Also, Paypal is not just for Ebay. If you sign up for a business account, you can set up shopping carts on websites, use it to process off-line payments, take donations and even process payments for non-tangible items like services. To plan on using PayPal for a venture like the re-count that was so time-sensitive to begin with just shows that someone didn't adequetely do their homework.

I'm not trying to let PayPal off the hook here but I AM saying that not all the blame for this mess can be laid at their door.


This is exactly right. You can't sue Paypal because you didn't read the TOS that you agreed to when you signed up for this service.

Several people I know have also run into "it wont' let me withdraw more than 300.00 every 3 days".

And, if anyone paid with a credit card (as in a credit card transaction) to grannywarriors and didn't use "direct transfer" that takes like 7 days to process.

[wowabunga]

This just proves that a HQ is needed for the supporters.....a command center for the revolution.....

George Washington's HQ was in a tent on the edge of the action... don't put our "Grass Roots HQ" in some office building somewhere between here and there.... PUT OUR GRASS ROOTS HQ ON WHEELS. 3 buses labeled East Coast, West Coast, and MidWest. Each bus should have a countdown clock of the national debt spiraling out of control hung on the exterior. Always park the buses smack dab next to the buses of the competition. Pay the bus drivers a bonus each time they manage to wiggle their way into a good "parking spot".

Ron Paul needs a campaign bus with a wavy banner on back reads "Peace and Prosperity" Grass Roots needs 3 campaign buses with wavy banners on back that read "We The People" Can you see this ? Can you see the grass roots bus pull into town a day before the HQ bus and set up in a mall parking lot, unfold a awning and set up a few kiosks. Keep the cargo bays packed with flyers stickers and signs. Equip all buses with Motosat portable internet gear, have a room on board for meetings and training. Use local faces to staff the kiosks.

McCain had 500 appearances in New Hampshire and Paul less than 100 appearances... who's bad is that ? My 2 Cents... that I will not stop pushing for till I see it with mine own eyes. A little voice keeps saying to me... please don't give all our donated advertising/promotional funds to the networks, they are the same folks who are cheering for our demise.

Rosa Parks was born on February 4th... quietly dedicate the new buses in her honor... unviel the buses on February 4th. Lots of room here for some free PR via photos from local papers. CNN was in town a few weeks covering Rudy. The CNN bus parked out back of the hotel, the staff washed and waxed that thing (dead of winter and road salt hell) and by golly that bus sparkled when they pulled it around to the front of the hotel...!

[CareerTech1]

So what is going to happen to everyone's money?!

That is FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!!

Tell them to give it to the RP campaign on Monday / MLK Bday

[ConstitutionGal]

Oh , screw illegal aliens.

Western Union has been around for over 156 years. They've been doing this money transfer thing forever.

You want someone reputable, then use Western Union.

Yes. They have been around 'forever' BUT, thanks to the advent of on-line payment systems and the like, Western Union wouldn't be NEARLY the corporation they are now WITHOUT the illegal aliens.

[jenninlouisiana]

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/UserAgreement/ua/USUA-outside

(I'm guessing Grannywarriors isn't a verified account either because they didnt' have time to do so)

6. Withdrawing Money.
6.1 How to Withdraw Money. You may withdraw funds by electronically transferring them to your bank account, requesting a physical check through the mail (U.S. Users only), or using your PayPal ATM/Debit Card (eligible Users only). Generally, we will send checks only to Confirmed Addresses, unless you have a Verified Account. We will not send checks to P.O. Boxes. If you would like us to send a check to an address that does not meet these criteria, you must contact Customer Service and provide the documentation that we request to verify your association with the address. If you fail to cash a check within 180 Days of the date of issuance, we will return the funds to your Balance (minus a Fee).

6.2 Withdrawal Limits. Depending on the degree to which you have Verified your Account, we may limit you to withdrawing no more than $500.00 USD per month. You can view your withdrawal limit, if any, by logging into your Account and clicking on the "View Limits" link on the "Account Overview."

In addition, we may delay withdrawals of large sums of money while we screen for risk. My emphasis

6.3 Withdrawing Money in Multiple Currencies. If you have multiple currencies in your Balance, you will be able to choose from those when you withdraw funds, but the withdrawal will take place in your home currency. The Exchange Rate & Fees stated in section 8 of this Agreement will apply if you withdraw your Balance in a currency other than your primary currency.

And under "restricted activities":

9. Restricted Activities.
9.1 Restricted Activities. In connection with your use of our website, your Account, or the Services, or in the course of your interactions with PayPal, a User or a third party, you will not:

s.Take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure;

10.2 Actions by PayPal. If you engage in any Restricted Activities, we may take various actions to protect PayPal, eBay, a User, a third party, or you from Reversals, Chargebacks, Claims, fees, fines, penalties and any other liability. The actions we may take include but are not limited to the following:

We may close, suspend, or limit your access to your Account or the Services (such as limiting access to any of your Funding Sources, and your ability to send money, make withdrawals, or remove financial Information);
We may contact buyers who have purchased goods or services from you, contact your bank or credit card issuer, and warn other Users, law enforcement, or impacted third parties of your actions;
We may update inaccurate Information you provided us;
We may refuse to provide our Services to you in the future;
We may hold your funds for up to 180 Days if reasonably needed to protect against the risk of liability; and
We may take legal action against you.
PayPal, in its sole discretion, reserves the right to terminate this Agreement, access to its website, or access to the Service for any reason and at any time upon notice to you and payment to you of any unrestricted funds held in custody for you.



This is what I think happened:

1. Grannywarriors aren't a PAC. (which they would have to be since they are collecting over 999.99 and using the money to directly or indirectly influence a presidential election).

2. They may or may not have taken money from international people, which violates the rules of a PAC.

3. They didnt' verify their account. Because they are a new account and knew they were going to get a bunch of money, they didn't contact PayPal to let them know what this was about.

4. The Grannywarriors assumed they would be able to withdraw 55,000 without having a verified account and without having read the TOS or without calling Paypal to verify this.


Basically, this is a trainwreck based on 3 components:

1. Not enough time

2. Not enough information

3. Inexperienced people organizing this.

I don't agree with the people who have called the grannies "biddies", etc. That's just mean. Their hearts were in the right places.

Unfortunately, you can't deal with Paypayl using your heart.


And besides, this was up to the campaign to do, and the campaign decided to not ask for a recount.

[leglock]

Like I said...

TOS.

[Ethek]

Paypalsucks.com

The have reportedly been able to reach into accounts at other banks tied to your paypal account and withdraw or 'confiscate' funds for no reason.

They have been on my blacklist for a long time. I secretly fear for family members that use them and I had strong concerns for any chip-ins that would move funds with them.

[Cowlesy]

I guess i don't understand why they can't take the money later, as this Albert Howard guy has more time to raise money for the recount in NH according to the article below.

http://wbztv.com/racenh/NH.Primary.Recount.2.630861.html

Get the cash cleared and get it done.

[jenninlouisiana]

Paypalsucks.com

The have reportedly been able to reach into accounts at other banks tied to your paypal account and withdraw or 'confiscate' funds for no reason.

They have been on my blacklist for a long time. I secretly fear for family members that use them and I had strong concerns for any chip-ins that would move funds with them.

Yeah, but, in my opinion, they had reason to freeze a new account's sudden 55K cash influx for no reason (no auction goods, etc). Ya know?

And that website is another reason why this shouldnt' have been organized with Paypal.

[lastnymleft]

1. Grannywarriors aren't a PAC. (which they would have to be since they are collecting over 999.99 and using the money to directly or indirectly influence a presidential election).

I would argue that. I believe the spirit (and presumably letter) of the law is with regards to influencing voters. How is it influencing voters when they have already voted? And it will only influence the presidential election if their is fraud exposed. Nobody should get penalised for anyone else's misdeeds.

Point re: international donors is moot if not a PAC, as explained above.

Point re: timing issues. Well, it was the SoS of NH that gave ~24 hours for the candidate to come up with the full funds for the recount. That's an unreasonable timeframe in the best of scenarios, and may be legally arguable.




And besides, this was up to the campaign to do, and the campaign decided to not ask for a recount.

The Albert Howard for President campaign decided to do it, as is their right. And we just happen to support his efforts, because Dr Paul will benefit, with zero exposure to the action. win:win

[voytechs]

They do it all the time. There are so many nightmare stories about PayPal its not funny.

I can't use PayPal either since I disconnected my checking account. I was allowed to use a certain amount off of a creditcard but once I passed the limit, I couldn't use it anymore. So I've been unable to chip in for some time.

I can use google checkout with no problems, so I've been donating to those causes instead.

If you are oblivious to issues with paypal, like most people seem to be, read up:
http://www.nopaypal.com
http://www.aboutpaypal.org/my_personal_paypal_nightmare
http://www.paypalwarning.com/my_paypal_nightmare

I pulled my checking account information after my eBay account was hacked and I reflected on why would I put myself into such tremendous jeopardy with PayPal (eBay and PayPaul are same companies). Since I've been unable to re-enable my ebay account for past 1.5 years and my paypal is useless, I actually feel much safer.

[voytechs]

PayPal has 50 thousand rules about how it transfers money. A chip in should never have been used (though I don't know how else they could have done it short of everyone overnighting money).

Also, is grannywarrior a PAC? She's going to have to be one now.

Google account is much better and safer. Safer in terms that your money won't be confiscated and it won't take you years and years to get any of it back.

[Redcard]

Dr Ron Paul would support Paypal in this case. He's for free Trade and no government restriction. In this case, paypal has a set of rules that you must abide by. The Grannies meant well, but , they also agreed to play by Paypal's rules on signup.

Come on, folks, a bunch of money accumulated in an account and then someone wanting to withdraw it all? It was likely caught automatically and placed on hold, and then put in someone's email box for review.

In the future, please. Western Union + Savings Account.

[mikeInAZ]

In the future, please. Western Union + Savings Account.

I don't think people don't trust Western Union since it's used for so much Internet fraud.

This was a massive blunder. It was only 60K! I can not believe someone wouldn't just walk over to the local B of A, get a check and hand it over, then get reimbursed by Paypal.

[Redcard]

I don't think people don't trust Western Union since it's used for so much Internet fraud.

This was a massive blunder. It was only 60K! I can not believe someone wouldn't just walk over to the local B of A, get a check and hand it over, then get reimbursed by Paypal.

Well, Paypal has fraud too, that's why they shut down our account, because they tripped fraud levels.

Only, WU has been in this game for 156 years.

Paypal, not even 10.

[jupiter]

More and more inconsistencies are being revealed in the New Hampshire primaries, for both Dems and Repubs.

This early in the election, and considering that NH is one of the few (if not the only state) that has both hand and electronic voting, I'm really beginning to regret that Ron Paul did not demand a recount. He could have paid for it in full and covered all the costs.

This election rigging can go on forever, we'll never know and all we'll be left with is a candidate who did not make it to first place. I've read several reports that RP should have actually placed 3rd in NH.

[steve005]

What!!??

[Redcard]

"In New Hampshire, while I would have hoped for a better result than eight percent, I am convinced that vote fraud played no role in this result"

"Rumors of vote fraud were investigated, and in the end they proved to be the result of errors in early media reports that were not reflected in the official numbers."

". However, machine counted vote totals were more than 2% lower for both John McCain and Mike Huckabee. Hand counted votes were more likely to be cast in rural areas. Results almost always vary between urban and rural areas."

"Our total vote count of over 18,000 votes was well within what we projected given the efforts of our extensive statewide get-out-the-vote program, giving me no reason to believe that vote fraud played any role in the results of the Granite State's primary."


Look. Ron Paul said he didn't believe vote fraud occurred. He said it was a clean vote. He said the numbers showed up exactly as the campaign expected them to.

Let it go.

[UtahApocalypse]

Title is misleading PayPal did not sabotage anything, they played by the rules they have. Granny Warriors just messed up using PayPal

[UtahApocalypse]

We going to be still fucking with NH come November??? Move the fuck on we have many other states to WIN!

[jenninlouisiana]

I dont' regret it. I agree: let it go.

[OKRonPaul]

If we don't get ours it will be interesting to watch the dem results from their recount. Can NH refuse to do a free rep recount if there are problems shown by the dem recount?

[mikeInAZ]

Well, Paypal has fraud too, that's why they shut down our account, because they tripped fraud levels.

Only, WU has been in this game for 156 years.

Paypal, not even 10.

Agreed. I'm just saying it's the perception of Western Union, or the stigma if you will. I think it would have hurt the donations. You'd have people saying "What the hell is this Western Union link. I'm not sending money via Western Union!" But it's a moot point now I guess.

[danda]

Thousands of people have had similar problems with PayPal over many years.

http://paypalwarning.com/

http://paypalsucks.com/

Read em and weep, Or get angry.

[sparebulb]

//////////

[sparebulb]

/////

[Redcard]

Agreed. I'm just saying it's the perception of Western Union, or the stigma if you will. I think it would have hurt the donations. You'd have people saying "What the hell is this Western Union link. I'm not sending money via Western Union!" But it's a moot point now I guess.

LOL

Those would be the kids who're like, 18, who seem to be the voice of this campaign who grew up in the Internet generation.

Sad, too. I know people that think Paypal , being owned by Ebay, is in business for another reason.. mainly, skimming off the top for ebay.. because ebay is about auctions and what not. Western Union IS about Money transfers.

*sighs* That's just all sad.

[WATYF]

I agree with the people here pointing out that this is a common event with PayPal, and that it was a bad idea for the GW's to use PayPal. It's just an unfortunate event, that's all.

I also agree that we should move on from this. RP said himself that the numbers in NH jived and that we shouldn't spend any time/energy/money on this. It's a waste to keep looking back and focusing on what "maybe, possibly, could have maybe been a few extra votes for RP" when we have so much work ahead of us.

Now... if there is no possible resolution for this issue (i.e. there's no way NH is going to accept the payment at this point and the money is just gonna sit there), then I would suggest that everyone petition the GW's to give all of the money to Ron Paul's campaign on MLK day, to increase the results of the next money bomb.

Just a thought.


WATYF

[AnalogDan]

Wow. That is unreal. This goes deeper than we think.

[liberty_Forever]

Yeah, this was obviously a deliberate trick to prevent discovery.

Hopefully Kucinich has better luck.

[mysticgeek]

They should just send that money to the Campaign on MLK day. But there is much to suspect in this ... You cannot just instantly take money out of a paypal account and I doubt the state secretary accepts paypal.

[jake]

too bad someone won't step up and pay for it :(
please!

[liberty_Forever]

I called the SOS . This is confirmed by me as off 11:30AM EST 1/16/08.

They said there is a Democratic recount, but no Republican recount because the "money was not provided"


Elections@sos.state.nh.us

Secretary of State - William M. Gardner
Senior Deputy Secretary of State - Robert P. Ambrose
Deputy Secretary of State - David M. Scanlan

State House, Room 204, Concord, N.H. 03301
Phone: 603-271-3242 Fax: 603-271-6316
Email: Elections@sos.state.nh.us

The law is "RSA 660":
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...60/660-mrg.htm

[affa]

EXACTLY! this is NOT paypal's fault is is the fault of the GRANNIES! if anyone should be sued it is them for their incompetence.

If you are not an Agent Provocateur, you play one on TV.

This isn't because of your opinion so much as your wrath that is aimed at our own grassroots. Throughout this thread you repeatedly create the illusions:
-that we are angry with our own
-that the grassroots is somehow incompetent
-that we should no longer trust contributions

You, sir, are the enemy.

You, sir, are not one of us.

[KewlRonduderules]

I called the SOS . This is confirmed by me as off 11:30AM EST 1/16/08.

They said there is a Democratic recount, but no Republican recount because the "money was not provided"


Elections@sos.state.nh.us

Secretary of State - William M. Gardner
Senior Deputy Secretary of State - Robert P. Ambrose
Deputy Secretary of State - David M. Scanlan

State House, Room 204, Concord, N.H. 03301
Phone: 603-271-3242 Fax: 603-271-6316
Email: Elections@sos.state.nh.us

The law is "RSA 660":
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...60/660-mrg.htm

I'd definitely contest that. There is no indication in the law that the money was needed in advance.

http://www.sos.nh.gov/rsa660.htm

[liberty_Forever]

affa: agreed.

Paypal is the enemy here.

[jenninlouisiana]

I agree with the people here pointing out that this is a common event with PayPal, and that it was a bad idea for the GW's to use PayPal. It's just an unfortunate event, that's all.

I also agree that we should move on from this. RP said himself that the numbers in NH jived and that we shouldn't spend any time/energy/money on this. It's a waste to keep looking back and focusing on what "maybe, possibly, could have maybe been a few extra votes for RP" when we have so much work ahead of us.

Now... if there is no possible resolution for this issue (i.e. there's no way NH is going to accept the payment at this point and the money is just gonna sit there), then I would suggest that everyone petition the GW's to give all of the money to Ron Paul's campaign on MLK day, to increase the results of the next money bomb.

Just a thought.


WATYF
\



+1000

[liberty_Forever]

More information....

I do not know where to begin with all of this so I will just lay out the basic facts as they are being reported to me:



1. The state of New Hampshire ballot appeared to have been tampered with.
2. The people of America (and about half of the world too!) pulled together to sign a petition and have their voice heard, across the aisle, in an effort that has seen both Democrats and Republicans call for a recount of the ballots for the state of New Hampshire.
3. The Secretary of State placed a January 15th @ 15:00 deadline for the $55,600 to be handed over to cover the cost of the recount.
4. The money was raised by, again, people from all walks of life who simply wanted to see that every vote was counted.
5. At the very last moment, PayPal froze the Granny Warriors account and refused to release the funds whilst they “investigated” a “suspicious” $1000 donation.
6. The money could not be handed over and thus, at this point in time, it appears that the recount will NOT take place.



So, the following is what we are meant to believe:



1. PayPal have clearly not been paying ANY attention to what has been happening during this campaign and thus have no idea how quickly and in what amounts the Ron Paul Revolution is able to raise funds.
2. PayPal were clearly unaware that Ron Paul supporters were in the majority of those donating to this effort and would likely break the target REGARDLESS of what last minute donations were required.
3. PayPal were so unlucky during the four days that this appeal ran that they managed to:
1. Crash the original ChipIn at least 3 times making it impossible during this time to donate any money at all.
2. Destroy the original ChipIn altogether after around $40,000 had been donated requiring the Granny Warriors to start a new ChipIn for the remaining monies.
3. Crash the new ChipIn for about 2 hours on and off on the final fundraising date.
4. Stop the recount by denying that all and any funds received are now frozen (note: NOT just the $1000 which, by this point, was no longer needed as we were over the top by then) pending an investigation into where a perfectly decent sized donation came from.
4. The Secretary of State is unable to stretch the deadline or accept that said funds exist regardless of the amount of documented evidence placed on his desk.
5. This entirely calamitous and accidental chain of events was, at no point whatsoever, manipulated by anybody to ensure that this recount never took place.



I am sorry but I do not believe for one second that 1 through 4 could possibly have happened without 5 being false.



I never will either.



This is democracy being stolen, right in front of our eyes and we are watching it, some in disbelief, some in denial, all in bond.



America has been stolen and the vote with it.



I do not know what comes next. What new horrors? What new wars? What new laws?



I fear for the future of America.



Best wishes and good luck,



Shaun

[slantedview]

as usual, fuck paypal.

[jenninlouisiana]

Shaun, I respect your opinion on what happened, but I still fail to see how this is PayPals' fault for "not knowing the revolution can raise a lot of money quickly".

Did the grannies have a *verified* account with Paypal?

Did the grannies call paypal/e-mail them letting them know WHY all of this money was going to come in?

Are the grannies a PAC?


Answer those questions first and then I'll look into your comments more closely.

[liberty_Forever]

oh I am not Shaun, that was cut/paste =)

[slamhead]

Lets look at the bright side. This recount was never intended to garner more votes for RP it was to question the strange statistical anomaly between hand counted and machine counted votes. It was on the democratic side where the significant anomaly occurred and this recount is going to proceed.

[Unspun]

Why do people still use Paypal?

[Arklatex]

As a shareholder in EBAY, I am much more inclined to buy google in the future.

[jenninlouisiana]

oh I am not Shaun, that was cut/paste =)

Oh, sorry. :D

The thing is.... even if Paypal deliberately screwed us, if the grannies didn't follow the TOS, then you can't argue, sue, anything....

[angelatc]

Part of the issue too is the difference between a PayPal Standard and a PayPal Premium account. Premium accounts are for business owners and are more flexible about the transaction size. However you need a business EIN to do this and it takes at least 10 business days to set it up. I doubt "Granny Warriors" has incorporated. :)

If they were trying to clear $55,000 in one week via a standard account they should have known this would happen. It automatically sets off red flags for an individual account to have that type of funds transaction, as well it should.

No it should not! You've been brainwashed. Why should people have to explain their personal business like that?

Also, you do not need to be incorporated to have an EIN.

Finally, if they have a PayPal debit card, it would reasonably possible to draw on the funds immediately.

Having a business account in no way protects you from this. You're delusional if you think this cannot happen to you. Politics being what they are, PayPal would be a very simple way to sabotage an opponent.

[angelatc]

So does your credit card company and the bank. This is SOP.

With my credit card company and my bank, I can clear up any confusion with a 2 minute phone call. PayPal offers no such option. Their investigations intentionally take weeks, and sometimes months.

[jenninlouisiana]

No it should not! You've been brainwashed. Why should people have to explain their personal business like that?


Because in their TOS under "acceptable use" it states that if you are collecting money for a cause (a charity for instance) then you have to get PRE-APPROVED by PayPal and then it gives an e-mail to send information to.

That's why.

And it isn't the grannies "personal business"... it is collecting money to directly influence a Presidential election.

[angelatc]

[QUOTE=TheBagman;975254]Why do people still use Paypal?[/QUOTE

I think an even better question is (as in the case of the blimp) why do people refuse to use anything else? Paypal is the least secure money changer in the game, but people act like it's sacrilege to use them and only them.

[angelatc]

Because in their TOS under "acceptable use" it states that if you are collecting money for a cause (a charity for instance) then you have to get PRE-APPROVED by PayPal and then it gives an e-mail to send information to.

That's why.

And it isn't the grannies "personal business"... it is collecting money to directly influence a Presidential election.

Sigh, Their TOS is a shoddy, pieced together piece of crap that they freely amend as the situation calls for. They wave it around like Neocons carrying a flag.

Paypal sucks. Letting Paypal try to protect users is as bad as having the government try to protect us.

There's no excuse for them to sit on that money for more than 1 day. If te cause isn't approved, then refund the money. Their policy of taking a month to review cases is insanely inadequate.

[WATYF]

If you are not an Agent Provocateur, you play one on TV.

This isn't because of your opinion so much as your wrath that is aimed at our own grassroots. Throughout this thread you repeatedly create the illusions:
-that we are angry with our own
-that the grassroots is somehow incompetent
-that we should no longer trust contributions

You, sir, are the enemy.

You, sir, are not one of us.
Nonsense... he never said any of those things. Never said anything about trusting contributions... never said anything about the grassroots movement...

Someone made a mistake. I think it was an honest mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. Calling someone the "enemy" just because they're actually big enough to admit that Ron Paul supporters are capable of making mistakes is pretty absurd.


WATYF

[UtahApocalypse]

No it should not! You've been brainwashed. Why should people have to explain their personal business like that?



Sigh, Their TOS is a shoddy, pieced together piece of crap that they freely amend as the situation calls for. They wave it around like Neocons carrying a flag.

Paypal sucks. Letting Paypal try to protect users is as bad as having the government try to protect us.

There's no excuse for them to sit on that money for more than 1 day. If te cause isn't approved, then refund the money. Their policy of taking a month to review cases is insanely inadequate.

You have to follow the rules. If you don't like them you find some other way that will work. PayPal sucks, but that's who the GW decided to use. We can't blame PayPal for running their company according to its own policies.

[jenninlouisiana]

Sigh, Their TOS is a shoddy, pieced together piece of crap that they freely amend as the situation calls for. They wave it around like Neocons carrying a flag.

Paypal sucks. Letting Paypal try to protect users is as bad as having the government try to protect us.

There's no excuse for them to sit on that money for more than 1 day. If te cause isn't approved, then refund the money. Their policy of taking a month to review cases is insanely inadequate.

I totally agree with you here.

This is simply a case of people who have good hearts and a lot of initiative and little time trying to pull this together using a defective money-collecting web site.

[Peterjar]

I am sure this has been mentioned but why not mention it again:

What will the Granny Warriors do with the 50K? I am sure they will put it to excellent use. Lets generate ideas for them on this thread.

(1) Forward the money into a special "in case we need another recount" account.
(2) But thousands of Roses for the Se. of State of NH every day for the next two weeks until he pukes roses (kill him softly with Roses)
(3) .... [fill in the blank]

[WATYF]

So, the following is what we are meant to believe:

1. PayPal have clearly not been paying ANY attention to what has been happening during this campaign and thus have no idea how quickly and in what amounts the Ron Paul Revolution is able to raise funds.
2. PayPal were clearly unaware that Ron Paul supporters were in the majority of those donating to this effort and would likely break the target REGARDLESS of what last minute donations were required.
3. PayPal were so unlucky during the four days that this appeal ran that they managed to:
1. Crash the original ChipIn at least 3 times making it impossible during this time to donate any money at all.
2. Destroy the original ChipIn altogether after around $40,000 had been donated requiring the Granny Warriors to start a new ChipIn for the remaining monies.
3. Crash the new ChipIn for about 2 hours on and off on the final fundraising date.
4. Stop the recount by denying that all and any funds received are now frozen (note: NOT just the $1000 which, by this point, was no longer needed as we were over the top by then) pending an investigation into where a perfectly decent sized donation came from.
4. The Secretary of State is unable to stretch the deadline or accept that said funds exist regardless of the amount of documented evidence placed on his desk.
5. This entirely calamitous and accidental chain of events was, at no point whatsoever, manipulated by anybody to ensure that this recount never took place.



I am sorry but I do not believe for one second that 1 through 4 could possibly have happened without 5 being false.



I never will either.
haha... wow... just wow.

So you're surprised that PayPal doesn't hire people to watch the presidential contenders and see what their supporters are like and follow donation trends (not donations through PayPal, but just donation trends in general for each candidate) and then peruse their own userbase (and the entire internet) and keep an eye out for any PayPal users who might be Ron Paul supporters and then watch any RP supporter's PayPal accounts so that none of them get frozen for unusually large transactions?

Really?

That's what you're expecting?

You honestly believe that PayPal should have been aware that "Ron Paul supporters were in the majority of those donating to this effort and would likely break the target" and that they should have been "paying attention to what has been happening during this campaign and [known] how quickly and in what amounts the Ron Paul Revolution is able to raise funds"???

Really?

You really think a business should be doing all that? And you furthermore think that because a billion dollar, international, privately own business wasn't watching the Ron Paul campaign as closely as you are, that it must mean that they were conspiring against it?


Wow.



WATYF

[WATYF]

I am sure this has been mentioned but why not mention it again:

What will the Granny Warriors do with the 50K? I am sure they will put it to excellent use. Lets generate ideas for them on this thread.

(1) Forward the money into a special "in case we need another recount" account.
(2) But thousands of Roses for the Se. of State of NH every day for the next two weeks until he pukes roses (kill him softly with Roses)
(3) .... [fill in the blank]
(3) Donate it all to the campaign on MLK day to bolster the size of the money bomb.


The money bombs generate (positive) media expose and get RP's name mentioned to people who may not have heard of him yet. While your idea of giving roses to the SoS may seem like a cool way to "get back" at him, it accomplishes nothing for the campaign, and if I had given money to the GW's, I definitely wouldn't want it being used for something like that.


WATYF

[Jesubub]

Can someone tell me which PayPal withdrawal option Granny was planning to use to get the money out at the last minute? It takes 3-4 days to get a bank transfer & 1-2 weeks for a check, and the PayPal debit card has a $3,000 daily limit (https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=HTKdcMdhgDp8SnJZVQ6fHw2TMvDwZT dS2ZlpvFz1pJJCFp21zQ52!1246472403?locale=en_US&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=US&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9005&t=solutionTab&ft=searchTab&ps=solutionPanels&solutionId=11830&isSrch=Yes).

http://ronpaulforprez.com/PayPal_Withdraw.jpg

[UtahApocalypse]

haha... wow... just wow.

So you're surprised that PayPal doesn't hire people to watch the presidential contenders and see what their supporters are like and follow donation trends (not donations through PayPal, but just donation trends in general for each candidate) and then peruse their own userbase (and the entire internet) and keep an eye out for any PayPal users who might be Ron Paul supporters and then watch any RP supporter's PayPal accounts so that none of them get frozen for unusually large transactions?

Really?

That's what you're expecting?

You honestly believe that PayPal should have been aware that "Ron Paul supporters were in the majority of those donating to this effort and would likely break the target" and that they should have been "paying attention to what has been happening during this campaign and [known] how quickly and in what amounts the Ron Paul Revolution is able to raise funds"???

Really?

You really think a business should be doing all that? And you furthermore think that because a billion dollar, international, privately own business wasn't watching the Ron Paul campaign as closely as you are, that it must mean that they were conspiring against it?


Wow.



WATYF

Not to mention doing all this right along side hundreds of thousands of regular everyday transactions that they are involved in. I mean heaven forbid they did not drop all their other business to focus on this effort and also change rules just to make it work how we wanted.

[CurtisLow]

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/5456/bushdohbx7.jpg

[ScotTX]

I just heard Linda Hunnicut on Alex jones say that the deadline has been extended and the Granny Warriors WILL pay for the re-count today. She also said that all of the money came from one individual and she will use the chip-in to re-imburse that individual. So it looks like the re-count is on, but the people re-counting are the same people that counted the ballots in the first place, for what good that will do.

[fmontez]

Mod please remove this post, there is no evidence of sabotage. Misleading title.

[911cartoon]

I'm trying to cancel my paypal but it requires me to enter all my credit card numbers.. just to cancel.. WTF mann

[Ethek]

I'm trying to cancel my paypal but it requires me to enter all my credit card numbers.. just to cancel.. WTF mann

lol..

[bolidew]

Paypal Sucks!
We need its competitors.

[John_Haigh]

The grannies are working their butts off for Ron Paul's election.

Nobody pointed out that PayPal was the wrong way to collect money if there was a payment deadline.

Also what happened to "natural justice." Is that a legal concept in the States? The state official should have said, "You have documentary evidence that you have raised the funds. We will defer the count until they come through."

[Edu]

As a shareholder in EBAY, I am much more inclined to buy google in the future.ScottTrade, $7 trade, push a couple buttons and you are a google owner!

[jcims]

The grannies are working their butts off for Ron Paul's election.

Nobody pointed out that PayPal was the wrong way to collect money if there was a payment deadline.

Also what happened to "natural justice." Is that a legal concept in the States? The state official should have said, "You have documentary evidence that you have raised the funds. We will defer the count until they come through."

Well, apparently ChipIn has sold out to PayPal. There are statements littered all over their site that you can have the ChipIn pay out to check, ACH or PayPal, but when you actually try to enroll, you don't have an option, and in the FAQ it states:

"Do I have to be a PayPal customer to use ChipIn?

You do not need to be a PayPal customer in order to contribute to a ChipIn. However, the only way to receive funds from ChipIn is through PayPal. Therefore, ChipIn organizers must have PayPal accounts."

Are there any other alternatives to ChipIn?

[jrich4rpaul]

Ron Paul said he didn't want a recount, but you guys kept pushing...

I do admit though, 50 thousand gone is horrible...

[jcims]

Ron Paul said he didn't want a recount, but you guys kept pushing...

I do admit though, 50 thousand gone is horrible...

The money isn't gone, the recount is going to take place...they just had to turn up the heat a little bit to get it done.

I never saw this recount as something being done for Dr. Paul, it was done for the voters of New Hampshire. With all due respect, Ron Paul's opinion on this matter is no more relevant than that of anyone else that doesn't call New Hampshire home.

[jrich4rpaul]

The money isn't gone, the recount is going to take place...they just had to turn up the heat a little bit to get it done.

I never saw this recount as something being done for Dr. Paul. This was done for the voters of New Hampshire, so, with all due respect, Ron Paul's opinion on this matter is no more relevant than mine or than that of anyone else that doesn't call New Hampshire home.

The recount was only "for the voters of New Hampshire?" It wasn't about a candidate's votes?

You'll have to elaborate.

[derdy]

Time to cancle Paypal.

We need competition! That's the only way to resovle this matter! Paypal has sold their soul to the highest bidder....

I've never left my balance on paypal, but in my bank account. However, given this infraction on trust I cannot ever see myself working with Paypal again. Who's to say that when I put MY MONEY TOWARDS A CAUSE I BELIEVE IN, THAT MY MONEY WON'T BE FROZEN?!

PAYPAL, YOU NEED TO BE FROZEN!


Sincerely cancelling paypal,
Denny

[jcims]

The recount was only "for the voters of New Hampshire?" It wasn't about a candidate's votes?

You'll have to elaborate.

Look at the current results here: http://www.sos.nh.gov/recountresults.htm

First column, second line: Manchester Ward 2 in Hillsborough county. Senator Joe Biden gets seven votes in the official count, but on the recount they found two more (nearly 30% increase!) There are two people behind these uncounted votes, two people that got off their rear ends, drove to the polling station, stood in line, filled out their forms, showed their id's and voted their hearts. Joe isn't going to move up a single spot because of this, but there are are now nine people in Manchester Ward 2 of Hillsborough county that can be certain their voices were heard, and that this process actually means something after all. As you start looking through the results so far, for this one county, you find these discrepancies everywhere. There is absolutely no good excuse for it, just apathy, incompetence, and in some very rare circumstances, corruption.

If Ron Paul edges out Giuluani, or some massive discrepancy causes states everywhere to improve their voting process, we all win. But for now I'm just happy for the voters of New Hampshire and see this as a big win for them.

[jrich4rpaul]

Look at the current results here: http://www.sos.nh.gov/recountresults.htm

First column, second line: Manchester Ward 2 in Hillsborough county. Senator Joe Biden gets seven votes in the official count, but on the recount they found two more (nearly 30% increase!) There are two people behind these uncounted votes, two people that got off their rear ends, drove to the polling station, stood in line, filled out their forms, showed their id's and voted their hearts. Joe isn't going to move up a single spot because of this, but there are are now nine people in Manchester Ward 2 of Hillsborough county that can be certain their voices were heard, and that this process actually means something after all. As you start looking through the results so far, for this one county, you find these discrepancies everywhere. There is absolutely no good excuse for it, just apathy, incompetence, and in some very rare circumstances, corruption.

If Ron Paul edges out Giuluani, or some massive discrepancy causes states everywhere to improve their voting process, we all win. But for now I'm just happy for the voters of New Hampshire and see this as a big win for them.

It makes sense now :) So did things get worked out or is the recount called off?

[jcims]

It makes sense now :) So did things get worked out or is the recount called off?

It's underway! http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_shaun_ha_080116_update_on_nh_recount.htm

[Edu]

Recount results from January 16, 2008:
http://www.sos.state.nh.us/recountresults.htm

From: http://grannywarrior.chipin.com/recount

We just got word from Paypal after a all night battle with them sending them tons of information and verifying my legality and things that had absolutely nothing to do with this event. Anyway a very nice lady at Pay Pal realized the seriousness of this and looked into the whole thing and has unfrozen the account. The only thing that is frozen still is that questionable donation of $1000 that started the whole affair.

THANK YOU GUYS SO MUCH FOR YOUR CONCERN AND CARING FOR US. It really makes me feel so special to think people all over the country care about what happens to us. I am so priveledged to know this group and to be a small part of it.

The money was borrowed and we have the recount paid for and ready to go. The Secretary of State has the money and Mr. Howard has the signed receipt.

Now all we have to do is pay back the loan which we will do with the lady at Paypal so there are no more mishaps and we are good to go.

Thank you all again for your support.

We are between Atlanta and Greenville SC now headed for the Blimp site for tomorrow if the ice storm holds off. Brrrrrrrrrrrr and I left that warm state of Texas for this? I must be nuts. But if Ron can take the cold surely I can too and he will warm us all up with his appearances.

* January 16 1:47pm

http://grannywarrior.chipin.com/recount

PayPal Freeze out
We have sent off the money to a newly opened bank account in NH opened by the former Attorney General for this purpose. The funds left our account and we thought it was a done deal.

As soon as I sent out the message the money was on its way we received a big donation of $1000 and it got flagged as a suspicious entry.? below is the actual paypal notice:

Inquiry by PayPal - Case ID: PP-403-499-846
Status:Waiting For Seller's ResponseTransaction ID:00S01027UD303372FBuyer Name & Email:Jerjis Alajaji, jerjisalajaji@yahoo.comTransaction Amount:$1,000.00 USDTransaction Date:Jan. 15, 2008


* January 15 10:52pm

Possible updates (none as of this post) http://www.sos.state.nh.us/

[ecliptic]

Brad Blog : (http://www.bradblog.com/) The disparities, as I've quickly been able to review them, are small, but consistent, in ward after ward, across almost all of the candidates. I'm told that the manufacturers of the optical-scan machines (in this case, Diebold) have estimated an expected error rate of 1% on this type of tallying device which, as noted by one of our contacts in NH, is ridiculous, if you consider that most states and counties only kick in "automatic recounts" when the margin between the two leading candidates is less than .5% or so.

Now we know why they kept it all secret! Imagine 1% error rate in a national election.... how many "missed" votes would that be?