SeekLiberty
07-25-2007, 12:06 PM
Our Constitution does not allow police to randomly ask people for their I.D. Our Republic was not meant to be a Police State ... even though our remnant Republic is showing severe signs of being one.
Is anybody familiar with Beit Shalom Ministries http://www.beitshalomministries.org where two ministers are walking across our Country to protest the Iraq war?
Here's an excerpt from a recent article written about it:
http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=57228&Disp=27
"What has become more troubling as part of the police stops, they say, is that they are almost immediately asked to show identification.
"We researched it," Nesch said, "And the Supreme Court ruled that you don't have to present your ID if you're not under suspicion of having committed a crime, committing a crime or going to commit a crime.
"I think it's pretty obvious what we're doing, so we refused to give it unless there's some legitimate complaint, like sometimes when we'll be preaching really loud with megaphone and there might be a complaint, we'll gladly give our ID, but it was obvious we were just walking."
The Law
Indiana law says that when a law enforcement officer stops a person for an infraction or an ordinance violation, then the person can be required to provide their name, address and date of birth or driver's license if they have one. Failure to do so is a class-C misdemeanor, according to Indiana Code 34-28-5-3.5.
Someone committing a class-C misdemeanor is subject to arrest, according to attorney William E. Marsh of the Federal Community Defender's Office in Indianapolis.
Marsh, who also teaches criminal procedure at the Indiana University School of Law in Indianapolis, added, "I think that a police officer who wants to stop a person just to find out who they are doesn't have the authority to do that."
After Nesch and Schwab began refusing to show identification, they started to videotape the police stops to protect themselves, they say, and to document the requests for ID. Several of the videos appear on the group's Web site.
On July 8, according to the police report, Patrolman James Haley received a call regarding a man wearing a jumpsuit walking west on U.S. 40. Sgt. William Bark located Nesch first, and called Haley to assist. After Nesch refused several times to give his ID, Bark handcuffed him and escorted him to his police vehicle. They later located Nesch's vehicle, which was impounded after a search. Nesch was taken to the Vigo County Jail, where he stayed until he was released later the same night.
During the car search, officers found Nesch's ID and Social Security card, as well as a bunch of Bibles and some clothing, Nesch said.
The incident, which Nesch said he began recording as soon as he was stopped, is no longer on his videotape.
"I had the video camera on, and when they asked me to shut it off, I said no, you're a public officer, I have the right to videotape this for my own protection and documentation," Nesch said. After he was handcuffed, officers took the camera, Nesch said.
Schwab and Nesch are alleging that the West Terre Haute police destroyed the evidence by erasing the tape, but Chief Mark Arnold says that's nonsense.
"The video camera never left [Nesch's] sight," Arnold said during a phone interview Friday. "When they booked him in, they tagged it in with him … In the process of turning it off, [the officer] could have hit the button. I don't know what happened, but there was no malice, no bad intent," he said.
Reasonable suspicion?
The two men say they are not guilty of any violation, and allege that the police abused their power.
Schwab said he compares it to "Communist Russia, where you're obligated to identify yourself wherever you go, which is contrary to the [United States] Constitution."
He maintains that he has the freedom "to walk unobstructed without having to tell anyone what I'm doing or why I'm doing it as long as I'm within the boundaries of the law and not infringing on anybody else's rights.
"We want to show people that while we're killing people in Iraq for the claim of freedom, we're losing those liberties here in America. And it's unacceptable," Schwab added.
Schwab said, "If someone had said, these guys threw rocks at our car, that's one thing, but just because they think we look suspicious — people cannot just randomly ID people because they have a hunch."
Marsh said, "In terms of practical advice, if someone asked me as a lawyer what to do in this case, I'd say to minimize the conflict for yourself, show your ID and move on … But if a person chooses not to do so, it's not a violation of Indiana law."
He added that a person should "absolutely not" be subject to harassment or arrest for failing to offer ID under those circumstances.
Nesch said if the law required him to show his ID, he would gladly produce it.
"We're not lawbreakers, we're peaceful people," he said."
- SL
[I]The opinions and articles expressed and posted on these Ron Paul Forums are not necessarily the opinions expressed by the Ron Paul Forums or Ron Paul.
Is anybody familiar with Beit Shalom Ministries http://www.beitshalomministries.org where two ministers are walking across our Country to protest the Iraq war?
Here's an excerpt from a recent article written about it:
http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=57228&Disp=27
"What has become more troubling as part of the police stops, they say, is that they are almost immediately asked to show identification.
"We researched it," Nesch said, "And the Supreme Court ruled that you don't have to present your ID if you're not under suspicion of having committed a crime, committing a crime or going to commit a crime.
"I think it's pretty obvious what we're doing, so we refused to give it unless there's some legitimate complaint, like sometimes when we'll be preaching really loud with megaphone and there might be a complaint, we'll gladly give our ID, but it was obvious we were just walking."
The Law
Indiana law says that when a law enforcement officer stops a person for an infraction or an ordinance violation, then the person can be required to provide their name, address and date of birth or driver's license if they have one. Failure to do so is a class-C misdemeanor, according to Indiana Code 34-28-5-3.5.
Someone committing a class-C misdemeanor is subject to arrest, according to attorney William E. Marsh of the Federal Community Defender's Office in Indianapolis.
Marsh, who also teaches criminal procedure at the Indiana University School of Law in Indianapolis, added, "I think that a police officer who wants to stop a person just to find out who they are doesn't have the authority to do that."
After Nesch and Schwab began refusing to show identification, they started to videotape the police stops to protect themselves, they say, and to document the requests for ID. Several of the videos appear on the group's Web site.
On July 8, according to the police report, Patrolman James Haley received a call regarding a man wearing a jumpsuit walking west on U.S. 40. Sgt. William Bark located Nesch first, and called Haley to assist. After Nesch refused several times to give his ID, Bark handcuffed him and escorted him to his police vehicle. They later located Nesch's vehicle, which was impounded after a search. Nesch was taken to the Vigo County Jail, where he stayed until he was released later the same night.
During the car search, officers found Nesch's ID and Social Security card, as well as a bunch of Bibles and some clothing, Nesch said.
The incident, which Nesch said he began recording as soon as he was stopped, is no longer on his videotape.
"I had the video camera on, and when they asked me to shut it off, I said no, you're a public officer, I have the right to videotape this for my own protection and documentation," Nesch said. After he was handcuffed, officers took the camera, Nesch said.
Schwab and Nesch are alleging that the West Terre Haute police destroyed the evidence by erasing the tape, but Chief Mark Arnold says that's nonsense.
"The video camera never left [Nesch's] sight," Arnold said during a phone interview Friday. "When they booked him in, they tagged it in with him … In the process of turning it off, [the officer] could have hit the button. I don't know what happened, but there was no malice, no bad intent," he said.
Reasonable suspicion?
The two men say they are not guilty of any violation, and allege that the police abused their power.
Schwab said he compares it to "Communist Russia, where you're obligated to identify yourself wherever you go, which is contrary to the [United States] Constitution."
He maintains that he has the freedom "to walk unobstructed without having to tell anyone what I'm doing or why I'm doing it as long as I'm within the boundaries of the law and not infringing on anybody else's rights.
"We want to show people that while we're killing people in Iraq for the claim of freedom, we're losing those liberties here in America. And it's unacceptable," Schwab added.
Schwab said, "If someone had said, these guys threw rocks at our car, that's one thing, but just because they think we look suspicious — people cannot just randomly ID people because they have a hunch."
Marsh said, "In terms of practical advice, if someone asked me as a lawyer what to do in this case, I'd say to minimize the conflict for yourself, show your ID and move on … But if a person chooses not to do so, it's not a violation of Indiana law."
He added that a person should "absolutely not" be subject to harassment or arrest for failing to offer ID under those circumstances.
Nesch said if the law required him to show his ID, he would gladly produce it.
"We're not lawbreakers, we're peaceful people," he said."
- SL
[I]The opinions and articles expressed and posted on these Ron Paul Forums are not necessarily the opinions expressed by the Ron Paul Forums or Ron Paul.