A Message From A Criminal Defense Attorney

[sylvania]

//

[Harry96]

Excellent post. Thanks.

[TheEvilDetector]

Please answer these questions:

a) If a cop pulls you over for any reason and asks to see your drivers licence, you have to give it to them right? Whether or not you think you committed a crime?

b) If a cop comes to your house with a search warrant, I do not think you are allowed to refuse entry?

c) If a cop for whatever reasons, asks you to simply identify yourself (provide name), do you have to do that?

Look forward to your replies.

[sylvania]

I said I had lifted this from another site, so I'm not the attorney. I just found it useful.

[jblosser]

Yes, SCOTUS has ruled in the last couple of years that you must provide your papers when asked, whether you have done anything wrong or not.

If they show up with a warrant you may be able to delay them while you call an attorney but I wouldn't count on it.

IANAL either.

[beermotor]

Please answer these questions:

a) If a cop pulls you over for any reason and asks to see your drivers licence, you have to give it to them right? Whether or not you think you committed a crime?

b) If a cop comes to your house with a search warrant, I do not think you are allowed to refuse entry?

c) If a cop for whatever reasons, asks you to simply identify yourself (provide name), do you have to do that?

Look forward to your replies.


a) You can refuse, but you can also get a ticket for being presumed to not have a license from the state. This is why state licensing sucks.

b) A warrant signed by a judge would be legal authority - they can come in without your approval, whether you are there or not.

c) This would probably be situation-specific. If you're about to get in trouble or be accused of something, just keeping your trap shut until you get your lawyer in the room is a great idea. That's the guy's point above.

[jblosser]

c) This would probably be situation-specific. If you're about to get in trouble or be accused of something, just keeping your trap shut until you get your lawyer in the room is a great idea. That's the guy's point above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel

[Kuldebar]

Police Practices

What to Do if You Are Stopped by Police (http://www.aclu-wa.org/library_files/1204%20English.pdf) (ADOBE PDF)
A wallet-size card with tips on how to handle a police encounter.

Ran across this several years ago, it's good info.

More here:

http://www.aclu-wa.org/resources/publications.cfm

[MsDoodahs]

In response to your question a) above, this is what happened to me a few years ago - 6 or 7, I think.

I had been listening to a rabid libertarian radio talk show, so I was a bit rabid myself that day.

A cop pulled out behind me on a very lonely country road way way out in the sticks (NE Georgia). He stayed behind me for miles and miles. I watched my speed but was under the posted limit, so I was not concerned.

He stopped me anyway. :rolleyes:

When he came up to my window, he asked for license and proof of insurance. As I handed them to him, I asked "Why did you pull me over?"

As he reached for my papers, he responded, "I'm not telling you ANYTHING until I see who you are."

So ... I snatched my papers back out of his hand. :eek:

He told me he could arrest me on the spot for refusing to hand over my papers, and he said, "you are wasting my time." Which infuriated me and I said, "Just what in the hell do you think you're doing with MINE?" Our conversation kinda went downhill from there...:o

I told him to call his boss and have him come on out.

He did. :D

He and his boss had a long talk at the ass end of my car.

While they were back there, I called a friend who is a cop and he said CHILL OUT AND COOPERATE BECAUSE THEY CAN LOCK YOU UP FOR REFUSING TO HAND OVER YOUR PAPERWORK, and he said the USSC backed this up....sooooo....

When the supervisor came to my window and said, "he says you were weaving all over the road and he thinks you are under the influence." What BULLSHIT!

But by then I felt I was teetering on the brink of some very costly trouble - so, I smiled and said, "would you like for me to blow into one of those little doohickeys, or maybe the three of us can go to the hospital and I'll let them draw some blood?" The supervisor laughed and said that wasn't necessary. (I took the supervisor's laughter as proof that he KNEW that little weasel pulled me for no good reason. :mad: but I kept on :) )

Yes, I got a ticket (don't remember what it was for - cost me about $50). I paid it, no questions asked.

And considered it a lesson, and this is what I learned:

Cooperate - unless it is the hill you've chosen.

A traffic stop by a local yokel cop isn't the hill for me.

[SeekLiberty]

Our Constitution does not allow police to randomly ask people for their I.D. Our Republic was not meant to be a Police State ... even though our remnant Republic is showing severe signs of being one.

Is anybody familiar with Beit Shalom Ministries http://www.beitshalomministries.org where two ministers are walking across the nation to protest the Iraq war?

Here's an excerpt from a recent article written about it:

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=57228&Disp=27

"What has become more troubling as part of the police stops, they say, is that they are almost immediately asked to show identification.

"We researched it," Nesch said, "And the Supreme Court ruled that you don't have to present your ID if you're not under suspicion of having committed a crime, committing a crime or going to commit a crime.

"I think it's pretty obvious what we're doing, so we refused to give it unless there's some legitimate complaint, like sometimes when we'll be preaching really loud with megaphone and there might be a complaint, we'll gladly give our ID, but it was obvious we were just walking."

The Law

Indiana law says that when a law enforcement officer stops a person for an infraction or an ordinance violation, then the person can be required to provide their name, address and date of birth or driver's license if they have one. Failure to do so is a class-C misdemeanor, according to Indiana Code 34-28-5-3.5.

Someone committing a class-C misdemeanor is subject to arrest, according to attorney William E. Marsh of the Federal Community Defender's Office in Indianapolis.

Marsh, who also teaches criminal procedure at the Indiana University School of Law in Indianapolis, added, "I think that a police officer who wants to stop a person just to find out who they are doesn't have the authority to do that."

After Nesch and Schwab began refusing to show identification, they started to videotape the police stops to protect themselves, they say, and to document the requests for ID. Several of the videos appear on the group's Web site.

On July 8, according to the police report, Patrolman James Haley received a call regarding a man wearing a jumpsuit walking west on U.S. 40. Sgt. William Bark located Nesch first, and called Haley to assist. After Nesch refused several times to give his ID, Bark handcuffed him and escorted him to his police vehicle. They later located Nesch's vehicle, which was impounded after a search. Nesch was taken to the Vigo County Jail, where he stayed until he was released later the same night.

During the car search, officers found Nesch's ID and Social Security card, as well as a bunch of Bibles and some clothing, Nesch said.

The incident, which Nesch said he began recording as soon as he was stopped, is no longer on his videotape.

"I had the video camera on, and when they asked me to shut it off, I said no, you're a public officer, I have the right to videotape this for my own protection and documentation," Nesch said. After he was handcuffed, officers took the camera, Nesch said.

Schwab and Nesch are alleging that the West Terre Haute police destroyed the evidence by erasing the tape, but Chief Mark Arnold says that's nonsense.

"The video camera never left [Nesch's] sight," Arnold said during a phone interview Friday. "When they booked him in, they tagged it in with him … In the process of turning it off, [the officer] could have hit the button. I don't know what happened, but there was no malice, no bad intent," he said.

Reasonable suspicion?

The two men say they are not guilty of any violation, and allege that the police abused their power.

Schwab said he compares it to "Communist Russia, where you're obligated to identify yourself wherever you go, which is contrary to the [United States] Constitution."

He maintains that he has the freedom "to walk unobstructed without having to tell anyone what I'm doing or why I'm doing it as long as I'm within the boundaries of the law and not infringing on anybody else's rights.

"We want to show people that while we're killing people in Iraq for the claim of freedom, we're losing those liberties here in America. And it's unacceptable," Schwab added.

Schwab said, "If someone had said, these guys threw rocks at our car, that's one thing, but just because they think we look suspicious — people cannot just randomly ID people because they have a hunch."

Marsh said, "In terms of practical advice, if someone asked me as a lawyer what to do in this case, I'd say to minimize the conflict for yourself, show your ID and move on … But if a person chooses not to do so, it's not a violation of Indiana law."

He added that a person should "absolutely not" be subject to harassment or arrest for failing to offer ID under those circumstances.

Nesch said if the law required him to show his ID, he would gladly produce it.

"We're not lawbreakers, we're peaceful people," he said."

- SL

[I]The opinions and articles expressed and posted on these Ron Paul Forums are not necessarily the opinions expressed by the Ron Paul Forums or Ron Paul.

[bygone]

Personally I don't see the harm in handing a cop my ID. If he really presses the issue I think in most cases its going to be seen as an unreasonable objection on my part not to identify myself. After all, he has to identify himself if I ask him who he is, so there you go.

Do you have to? It's my understanding that the laws vary state to state on this. Does it matter? Not really, since if you don't identify yourself you're asking for an argument you probably won't win in the end.

If a cop asks your name, again I don't really see the harm in providing this either. It's not like he's not going to figure out who you are anyway if he is really determined to do so. I'm pretty sure there is a number of things he could accuse you of to justify determining your identity if you pressed the issue.

If they show up at your home with a search warrant, you'll find out really fast that you no longer have a choice in the matter, lol.

[AZ Libertarian]

My attorney has provided me with his business card, which states on the back, what he advises me to say if I am confronted by 'authorities':

"I refuse to consent to any search whatsoever. As such, I do not consent to a search of my premises, my person, my immediate location or any of my vehicles or effects. I hereby exercise my rights as enumerated by the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Ninth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution and Article Two of the Arizona Constitution. I demand to have my attorney present prior to and throughout any questioning at all. Additionally, I wish to consult with my attorney prior to any discussion with law enforcement officers on the subject of waiver."

He also gives away free refridgerator magnets with the same info on them, which he tells everyone "when you get home, put this at the bottom of your fridge so that when the jack-booted thugs come into your house and throw you on the floor, you only have to turn your head to see his phone number..."

I have it memorized. :D

[mdh]

Please address this guys...

Before it can be reasonable for a police officer to ask you to present ID, it must first be reasonable that everyone should have such ID, right? What about those who don't?

I read the case law that Bradley sited - all it said was that the person was compelled to identify himself. That does not mean presenting papers. You can identify yourself by simply telling the agent your name.

Is there a law compelling all citizens to have an ID? Certainly there is a law saying that to drive, one must have a license, and must carry it while driving. I understand that. But if you are NOT driving, is there a law compelling you to possess *ANY* documentation of any sort?
I don't think so. Am I wrong?

[TheEvilDetector]

Personally I don't see the harm in handing a cop my ID. If he really presses the issue I think in most cases its going to be seen as an unreasonable objection on my part not to identify myself. After all, he has to identify himself if I ask him who he is, so there you go.

Do you have to? It's my understanding that the laws vary state to state on this. Does it matter? Not really, since if you don't identify yourself you're asking for an argument you probably won't win in the end.

If a cop asks your name, again I don't really see the harm in providing this either. It's not like he's not going to figure out who you are anyway if he is really determined to do so. I'm pretty sure there is a number of things he could accuse you of to justify determining your identity if you pressed the issue.

If they show up at your home with a search warrant, you'll find out really fast that you no longer have a choice in the matter, lol.

I have a very interesting hypothetical scenario here. Its not something anyone would do, but I am interested in your opinion as to what would happen.

a) Cop sees a man. (the man carries no identifying information on him).
b) Cop asks for id.
c) Man refuses to identify himself, he refuses to speak to the cop totally.
d) Cop arrests
e) Cops ask man to identify himself, he refuses, he refuses to answer any questions at all actually
f) what happens in this situation?

In other words. if a person does not say a single word to the police officer ever, what happens?

[bygone]

It depends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes

That's a good place to start. It's really not a simple question.

[MsDoodahs]

I have a very interesting hypothetical scenario here. Its not something anyone would do, but I am interested in your opinion as to what would happen.

a) Cop sees a man. (the man carries no identifying information on him).
b) Cop asks for id.
c) Man refuses to identify himself, he refuses to speak to the cop totally.
d) Cop arrests
e) Cops ask man to identify himself, he refuses, he refuses to answer any questions at all actually
f) what happens in this situation?

In other words. if a person does not say a single word to the police officer ever, what happens?


Eventually, they'll either kill him or lock him away.

[bygone]

The original text of this post was not relevant.

I don't think there's anything requiring you to carry any ID if you are not driving. Telling them your name should be enough.