Between raising the minimum wage and supporting the UN, I couldnt watch it anymore

[krott5333]

these people are crazy :eek:

yeah, lets raise the minimum wage to $9 an hour, great idea, lets send more jobs overseas


do they actually believe the BS that they spew, or do they just assume that Americans are retarded? (which is partly true)

[MozoVote]

Minimum wage at $9, means more Latinos working for cash under the table.

Why can't American citizens just work for cash? Oh, yeah-- they CAN, if Ron Paul gets elected. :D

[Kuldebar]

The Titanic would be sinking, and these people would be talking about a government program to improve the laundry service on board.

[DjLoTi]

The Titanic would be sinking, and these people would be talking about a government program to improve the laundry service on board.

Spot on.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

these people are crazy :eek:

yeah, lets raise the minimum wage to $9 an hour, great idea, lets send more jobs overseas


do they actually believe the BS that they spew, or do they just assume that Americans are retarded? (which is partly true)

We should eliminate minimum wage.

[Kuldebar]

We should eliminate minimum wage.

I agree, most people recoil at the idea...but the logic is very sound to me.


Minimum Wage actually decreases the number of entry level jobs and essentially harms the same people it is supposed to be helping.

As always, the "price" is unseen, the price being the people not getting the job that was cut or never made available.

And entry level jobs are what most people start out in before moving up and out into better things.

And I am just morally opposed to the idea that the government has a right to tell you how much you have to pay some one....I think that's the employer and prospective employee's business.

[Wyurm]

The Titanic would be sinking, and these people would be talking about a government program to improve the laundry service on board.

Ah but they are. It astounds me how our liberties are being attacked on so many fronts, and just when I think we're making some headway in one area, a congressman or senator, all smiles comes hopping and skipping across the floor with a bill in his hand to solve all our problems by making everything FAR worse.

Edit: or presidential candidate.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I agree, most people recoil at the idea...but the logic is very sound to me.


Minimum Wage actually decreases the number of entry level jobs and essentially harms the same people it is supposed to be helping.

As always, the "price" is unseen, the price being the people not getting the job that was cut or never made available.

And entry level jobs are what most people start out in before moving up and out into better things.

And I am just morally opposed to the idea that the government has a right to tell you how much you have to pay some one....I think that's the employer and prospective employee's business.

yes. As a Libertarian, I tend to strive to be as socially liberal as possible, while being as fiscally conservative as can be ;) I might make compromises in order to improve the system, but I think that Libertarian principles are awesome!

Eliminating the minimum wage would bring jobs back to America. Not only eliminate minimum wage, we need to do away with the tax system, so people will keep what they trade for their labor! Switching to a "hard assets" standard will strengthen the economy, so you'll see prices / cost of livings DRAMATICALLY decrease. The USD is worth between 3-5 cents per each $1, that is the purchasing power of the USD, imagine if our purchasing power increased 1000-2000% !! People would not only keep what they earn, everyone would now spend dramatically less for what they want.

We should also eliminate corporate welfare and "corporate status," meaning that all company owners would be viewed as individuals, they would all be liable for their actions.

Inflation would be 0

[LibertyEagle]

Oh hell, if all it takes is a vote, then why don't they just raise the minimum wage to $100/hour? I wish someone would ask them that and see what their reply is. The fact is that a great deal of the jobs would dry up. Which one of these socialist A-Holes have studied this, even though it's socialistic BS, to see if the market would support a 9 dollar/hour minimum wage?

[LibertyEagle]

Explain the whole "socially liberal" thing to me.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Explain the whole "socially liberal" thing to me.

means I support gay rights / marriage, decriminalization of drugs, a liberal border policy, nonintervention, pro choice... not that I would support any of these things at the federal level, just my stances.

a few exceptions;

1. while I support gay marriage, I don't think government should regulate marriage

2. Not a wide open border policy, a quick search before entry... eliminate entitlements first

3. leave abortion etc to states

[Gee]

Explain the whole "socially liberal" thing to me.
It used to mean equal rights for everyone. Now it means special help for minorities, which the democrats seem to think are inferior to white males. Or why else would they need the help? Its an inherently racist attitude.

[kylejack]

It used to mean equal rights for everyone. Now it means special help for minorities, which the democrats seem to think are inferior to white males. Or why else would they need the help? Its an inherently racist attitude.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Socially liberal refers to civil rights, not welfare entitlements. Welfare entitlements are referred to as fiscally liberal. Libertarians are socially liberal and fiscally conservative, for the most part.

[Delaware]

Heres my Idea:

NO MINUMUM WAGE

Let the free market decide what people make.

If people don't want to do a job for $5 an hour, then the company will be forced to pay higher wages in order to find workers.

Illegal immigrations skirts this and hinders the free market's capacity to work itself.

[Kuldebar]

Sorry, but you're wrong. Socially liberal refers to civil rights, not welfare entitlements. Welfare entitlements are referred to as fiscally liberal. Libertarians are socially liberal and fiscally conservative, for the most part.

Well, labeling is always a wearisome pastime but let's not forget that Classical Liberalism is the root of it. The modern day Libertarian movement is a fairly recent "version" of the American philosophy of freedom. And, of course that can be traced back further to England and John Locke...

[Richandler]

It's sad that Americans don't realize that the more people who get raises the more the value of the dollar goes down. The illegal immigrants are holding this country together right now by accepting $3 an hour. We need to stop defending people who insist and having luxury given to them at the cost of everyone.

[kylejack]

Well, labeling is always a wearisome pastime but let's not forget that Classical Liberalism is the root of it. The modern day Libertarian movement is a fairly recent "version" of the American philosophy of freedom. And, of course that can be traced back further to England and John Locke...

You speak the truth, of course, but "liberal" was stolen from us. Now they've moved on to "progressive". Can we have "liberal" back? :(

[ThePieSwindler]

Another thing about raising wages is that it means nothing as the dollar plummets. Raising minimum wage does not DIRECTLY affect the value of the dollar (though it does decrease the number of jobs and hurt the very poor and the young entry level workers), but its like cutting a weed off in the middle. It does not get to the heart of the problem that afflicts the poor and working class - the weakening of the purchasing power of the dollar. That can only be fixed by changing the system of a nation of credit and debt issued by by unelected powerful elites, and by cutting spending so that we do not have to print money to pay off the debt.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

It's sad that Americans don't realize that the more people who get raises the more the value of the dollar goes down. The illegal immigrants are holding this country together right now by accepting $3 an hour. We need to stop defending people who insist and having luxury given to them at the cost of everyone.

Johnson's "Great Society" (liberal economics) FAILED.. then was the conservatives under Nixon took over, that was when the neo cons propelled to power during Vietnam and by lying about the intentions of the SU.. liberal economics has already been proven to not work during Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society," but it failed, still, liberals keep on trying to do the same thing... LOL

[ThePieSwindler]

You speak the truth, of course, but "liberal" was stolen from us. Now they've moved on to "progressive". Can we have "liberal" back? :(

Haha thats funny, thats exactly what Hillary said in the debates tonight! She said "liberal means and used individual liberty and protecting the indivdual - i would consider myself a modern progressive more than a liberal" or something to that extent. What a hack.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

You speak the truth, of course, but "liberal" was stolen from us. Now they've moved on to "progressive". Can we have "liberal" back? :(

Aren't we the progressives? We knew that the drug war would fail from day 1 lol

liberals: we need to protect you from drugs

conservatives: you should be punished for drug use

libertarians: do what you want :p

[Roxi]

minimum wage goes up to 6.55 tomorrow...

haven't you noticed the fast food prices all rose 10% over the last week, as well did most grocery items etc...

[JosephTheLibertarian]

minimum wage goes up to 6.55 tomorrow...

haven't you noticed the fast food prices all rose 10% over the last week, as well did most grocery items etc...

yup.. as inflation goes up lol another brick on the back of the poor and middle class! I think minimum wage is 7.15 here in NJ hm

[Kuldebar]

Thomas E. Woods (http://www.mises.org/studyguide.aspx?action=author&Id=424) said in a Mises seminar not long ago when asked about how the Liberal label got transferred to big government types...his answer was interesting...I'll paraphrase it here:

He said that in the beginning of our country everyone had a great respect for limited government and liberty and truly believed that freedom was the best way for everyone to benefit. But, over the years, some people became impatient for freedom to "work" when it came to addressing certain problems in society. So, they felt if the government "helped" to even the playing field enough, things could become more fair a lot faster.

In an opposing group, there were a more conservative bunch of folks who believed that letting property rights, free markets and civil society work these issues was the best solution. And, of course, this meant abiding by the Constitutional limits on government.

From this shift and parting of ways, liberals and conservative labels came into use. None of this happened overnight.

The key to remember is that well intentioned people inhabited both sides of the schism, even today we must not forget this.

Even I can't say that Hillary Clinton is evil, I don't honestly think she is...but I do believe she is woefully misguided and has no principled concept of liberty or the inherent value of human freedom. But, the same can be said of nearly all Republican leaders as well.

[Ed W]

...

[ShaneC]

Problem is, the minimum wage will go up, which will help the people making minimum wage (for a very short period of time).

Then all the bills go up, EVERYONES, and those of us in the middle class are still screwed, and the minimum wage workers will still be in poverty.

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

Great point, ShaneC.

The economic reasons for eliminating the minimum wage are clear enough.

The other problem is moral. What right does the government have to tell an employer how much he/she can pay an employee?

If the employee doesn't want to work for that amount, he/she is free to pursue other options. If the employer cannot get workers for what he/she is offering, the employer would have to raise the wage on his/her own. It's amazing how the market (is supposed) to work that way.

If the government wants to have a minimum wage it has to pay its employees, that's one thing, but to tell a private employer is completely another.

[Birdlady]

It's been so long that we have had a free market that people don't even understand the concept. They think this IS free market now, so they want something different (socialism) not realizing they have been fooled for years!

If you get rid of the minimum wage most people would have a fit because they don't understand the bigger picture. They just care about what that check says at the end of the week. How we can we expect Americans to understand economics when we have children (and even adults) who cannot read at their appropriate level in school let alone do critical thinking! :eek: Everything in marketing is at an eight grade reading level for a reason.

[shadowhooch]

It's been so long that we have had a free market that people don't even understand the concept. They think this IS free market now, so they want something different (socialism) not realizing they have been fooled for years!

If you get rid of the minimum wage most people would have a fit because they don't understand the bigger picture. They just care about what that check says at the end of the week.

Yep, I agree. Minimum wage is a bad subject to talk about in a debate unless you are for increasing it. The average American sees the repeal of the minimum wage as heartless and cold. You can't expect the average American to "get" free market theory.

As a matter of fact, I feel like I'm educated in Politics more than the average Joe and I'm not even sure I agree that taking out the minimum wage is a good idea. As much as I believe in Ron Pauls free market thinking, I can't help but see the exhorbitant salaries and benefits company CEOs and upper management make.

It's a very touchy subject to say the least. Especially when try to tell some single mother trying to raise her family working 2 minimum wage jobs that the free market will actually allow her to get paid more. That's a hard pill to swallow (even if you are right).

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

Yep, I agree. Minimum wage is a bad subject to talk about in a debate unless you are for increasing it. The average American sees the repeal of the minimum wage as heartless and cold. You can't expect the average American to "get" free market theory.

As a matter of fact, I feel like I'm educated in Politics more than the average Joe and I'm not even sure I agree that taking out the minimum wage is a good idea. As much as I believe in Ron Pauls free market thinking, I can't help but see the exhorbitant salaries and benefits company CEOs and upper management make.

It's a very touchy subject to say the least. Especially when try to tell some single mother trying to raise her family working 2 minimum wage jobs that the free market will actually allow her to get paid more. That's a hard pill to swallow (even if you are right).


You're probably correct about the economic intelligence of the average American. However, you can't use the ignorance of the average voter to do something you know isn't right, or is against the free market.

Does it really matter how much money someone is making? While it would be NICE if the CEOs and upper management types would take some of their earnings and donate more to charity and the like, forcing them to is against anything anyone here should advocate. And, even by raising a minimum wage to whatever, isn't going to "equalize" the playing field.

It's difficult, but tell that mother that her "raise" has just been taken away from her by the increased cost in employing her and others, and it will cost her more to feed and clothe her children. Her "raise" also puts her closer to the unemployment line, as her employer may have to make a profit decision on whether to cut hours or cut employees.