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View Full Version : How concerned are you about the allegations of racism?




AlexK
01-08-2008, 09:10 PM
Just curious what the general feeling here is.


EDIT: Oops. Misspelled "allegations" in the second option.

DaronWestbrooke
01-08-2008, 09:18 PM
Now that the story moved beyond an hit piece by TNR to scanned copies of the newsletters with Dr. Paul's signature on a couple, I am far far more concerned with the piss poor way his campaign is handling it. The original TNR story was almost baiting the campaign to issue a press release that could be easily debunked.

They should have expected this. We were played, right now I am having faith we were played by TNR because I don't want to think of the alternative.

Paulfan05
01-08-2008, 09:28 PM
I think they are false, but It will hurt us a lot

AlienLanes82
01-08-2008, 09:30 PM
I said I am not a Ron Paul supporter anymore. As of this moment, that is where I stand, and will stay.

What I want from the campaign is:

- Ron Paul to personally say, in a speech, how much he loathes racism and homophobia. The hollow words of that press release are unacceptable.

- The names of those responsible (so we can tell if Ron Paul has disowned them), and a convincing factual explanation for how RP both 1) did not write this, and, 2) did not have awareness that his allies, staff and compatriots were using his name to promote these beliefs.

I am a contributor to the exploratory committee and to the campaign. Right now I am completely humiliated and personally embarrassed for having supported this campaign. I always had a fear that something like this might come up given Ron's associations with Truthers, the John Birch Society, and Alex Jones. But, I thought it might just be because they were the only people to listen to him since he is a strict constitutionalist.

If I don't get the above, I'll be looking at Obama, the Libertarian, or good old None of The Above.

Saddened,

LS,
Ohio

murrayrothbard
01-08-2008, 09:32 PM
Why the hell does it even matter? I know it does from a PR perspective but even if RP was a closet racist please show me one single racist program that RP has supported in his voting record over the last decades.

Sorry you all but freedom does not require political correctness. I don't believe that RP is a racist because it just really wouldn't make any sense, but even if he was: So what?

AlexK
01-08-2008, 09:35 PM
I don't believe that RP is a racist because it just really wouldn't make any sense, but even if he was: So what?

I'm not even going to dignify that question with a response.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
01-08-2008, 09:36 PM
Concerned. And don't believe Paul is racist, but he allowed some fucked up people to write some fucked up newsletters, repeatedly. But, this "spans 20 years" stuff is bullshit. Many of those newsletter are fringe, but not damning. Some are extremely screwed up. Parse them. How many are racist? When were those written? I'm concerned by the lack of investigation here by everyone. Investigate first. Freak out and light your hair on fire later, if you really need to. But, don't light your hair on fire tonight.

Falcon
01-08-2008, 09:37 PM
I'm surprised how some people are really spilling their guts out on this.

But anyway doesn't change anything.

It certainly doesn't change his message, isn't that what this is all about? Even if he doesn't win the nomination, isn't the long term-goal the message?

Please see the bigger picture!!!

murrayrothbard
01-08-2008, 09:38 PM
I'm not even going to dignify that question with a response.

You just responded.

DaronWestbrooke
01-08-2008, 09:38 PM
Why the hell does it even matter? I know it does from a PR perspective but even if RP was a closet racist please show me one single racist program that RP has supported in his voting record over the last decades.

Sorry you all but freedom does not require political correctness. I don't believe that RP is a racist because it just really wouldn't make any sense, but even if he was: So what?

Thank you, that may be what I needed. Just thinking, but that may be a good way to go with it. What is more important, what the man stands for or personal beliefs. Aren't we all entitled to our beliefs? I bet we all have some beliefs that people could call racist or hateful. So what. Fuck, Mormons don't think black people are people, and look how Ronmey is doing in the polls. I bet McCain has a lot of hate for vietnamese people. John Edwards seems to hate rich people. Who are we to judge someone's personal beliefs. It apparently hasn't changed what he stands for.

Don't use this, i am just brainstorming right now.

Catholicnerd
01-08-2008, 09:41 PM
Right now I am completely humiliated and personally embarrassed for having supported this campaign. I always had a fear that something like this might come up given Ron's associations with Truthers, the John Birch Society, and Alex Jones. But, I thought it might just be because they were the only people to listen to him since he is a strict constitutionalist.
Ohio

LS, I understand exactly how you feel. I'm thankful that I'm still on vacation at the moment. My neighborhood is full of leftist nuts and minorities. I'll be lucky if my first-floor apartment with the giant Ron Paul sign in its window hasn't been broken into :mad:

That said, I'm not giving up on Dr. Paul. As far as I can tell, he does not have a racist voting history and he has said that he denounces racism! Those two facts seem more conclusive than anything that TNR can dig up. This campaign is NOT finished.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
01-08-2008, 09:43 PM
Thank you, that may be what I needed. Just thinking, but that may be a good way to go with it. What is more important, what the man stands for or personal beliefs.


I don't even think it comes to that. I'd be slightly disturbed if so. I keep saying... this deserves more scrutiny than a Fox news or Frank Luntz video. Some of you guys are acting like he typed the newsletter in front of you, signed them, and then yelled racial slurs. If you can't provide the video for that, chill out and let's take a look at everything.

AlienLanes82
01-08-2008, 09:49 PM
Sorry you all but freedom does not require political correctness. I don't believe that RP is a racist because it just really wouldn't make any sense, but even if he was: So what?

Because racism is one of the most vile and rank prejudices known to man - as is anti-Semitism, and also homophobia. It would be disgusting to elect a President who disagrees with this.

I'm not part of the cult of personality in American politics, but the President is a figurehead and should be seen as a person who does not have racist, prejudicial politics. There is a point at which character counts. If a serial killer had a great political platform, I would not vote for him.

Believing in the equal dignity of all individuals is more important to me than my tax rate, my health care program, or charter schools.

You can call equal dignity "political correctness" if you want, but - well, maybe that explains how ineffective RPs volunteers have been.

DaronWestbrooke
01-08-2008, 09:49 PM
I don't even think it comes to that. I'd be slightly disturbed if so. I keep saying... this deserves more scrutiny than a Fox news or Frank Luntz video. Some of you guys are acting like he typed the newsletter in front of you, signed them, and then yelled racial slurs. If you can't provide the video for that, chill out and let's take a look at everything.

I'm just brainstorming. Like I said earlier, the way this played out, we were played. Right now I hope we were played by TNR and not the alternative. They held the scanned copies until after the campaign issued the press release. Why didn't the campaign anticipate this?

I am looking for any angle that will work at this point. I just don't want to hear statements like trust me or relax any more. Fight or flight.

murrayrothbard
01-08-2008, 09:52 PM
I'm not part of the cult of personality in American politics, but the President is a figurehead and should be seen as a person who does not have racist, prejudicial politics.

Right, so please show me one time RP has ever voted for some racist political program. He doesn't support any racist political positions.

Vaughn
01-08-2008, 09:53 PM
I said I am not a Ron Paul supporter anymore. As of this moment, that is where I stand, and will stay.

What I want from the campaign is:

- Ron Paul to personally say, in a speech, how much he loathes racism and homophobia. The hollow words of that press release are unacceptable.

- The names of those responsible (so we can tell if Ron Paul has disowned them), and a convincing factual explanation for how RP both 1) did not write this, and, 2) did not have awareness that his allies, staff and compatriots were using his name to promote these beliefs.

I am a contributor to the exploratory committee and to the campaign. Right now I am completely humiliated and personally embarrassed for having supported this campaign. I always had a fear that something like this might come up given Ron's associations with Truthers, the John Birch Society, and Alex Jones. But, I thought it might just be because they were the only people to listen to him since he is a strict constitutionalist.

If I don't get the above, I'll be looking at Obama, the Libertarian, or good old None of The Above.

Saddened,

LS,
Ohio

Dido, I too am greatly saddened by the events that have transpired. The campaign has to step up to the plate very soon because many of us our loosing faith, not in the message, but in the man.

murrayrothbard
01-08-2008, 09:54 PM
I'm not part of the cult of personality in American politics, but the President is a figurehead and should be seen as a person who does not have racist, prejudicial politics.

Right, so please show me one time RP has ever voted for some racist political program. He doesn't support any racist political positions.


If a serial killer had a great political platform, I would not vote for him.

Serial killer = racist????? huh?

AgentSmith
01-08-2008, 09:58 PM
I want my donation back.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
01-08-2008, 10:09 PM
I'm just brainstorming. Like I said earlier, the way this played out, we were played. Right now I hope we were played by TNR and not the alternative. They held the scanned copies until after the campaign issued the press release. Why didn't the campaign anticipate this?

I am looking for any angle that will work at this point. I just don't want to hear statements like trust me or relax any more. Fight or flight.

I understand, but that's why it deserves community scrutiny, and not some statement from the campaign.

Maybe the campaign should have anticipated it. Like I said, Paul defended those at Waco and Ruby Ridge. Those things haven't even been brought up yet. They're next. How many newsletters were written? Who were they written by and when? Like I said, this is the biggest attack, and if it's going to work, it better work because it's true. If it works because it's untrue and we don't figure it out for another week, that will be extremely shitty. So, don't let it work until we evaluate it.

Rad
01-08-2008, 10:20 PM
I'm surprised how some people are really spilling their guts out on this.

But anyway doesn't change anything.

It certainly doesn't change his message, isn't that what this is all about? Even if he doesn't win the nomination, isn't the long term-goal the message?

Please see the bigger picture!!!You are absolutely correct. Whatever happens the American Revolution II goes on until we take back our country! We need to displace the Republican base and alienate them like the New Left did in the 60's and 70's.

AlienLanes82
01-08-2008, 10:45 PM
Right, so please show me one time RP has ever voted for some racist political program. He doesn't support any racist political positions.

Serial killer = racist????? huh?

The point is that character, at some point, matters. If his character is racist, at some point, it ceases to matter that he doesn't support racist political positions.

The example of a serial killer is only meant to show that character matters at some level, and merely having great libertarian ideas is not enough to trump character. In no way am I suggesting that killing and racism are morally equivalent or in any way similar.

It merely shows that you cannot dismiss accusations of racism by saying "his political positions aren't racist", or, as someone said earlier, "so what if he's racist?"

I'm going to stop talking about this now because it only makes me depressed.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
01-08-2008, 10:49 PM
The example of a serial killer is only meant to show that character matters at some level, and merely having great libertarian ideas is not enough to trump character.

It would be much easier to liken the McCain personality to a serial killer. I think talking about serial killers in relation to politicians is a pretty bad can of worms to open, RP or not. Just sayin'

AlienLanes82
01-08-2008, 10:56 PM
It would be much easier to liken the McCain personality to a serial killer. I think talking about serial killers in relation to politicians is a pretty bad can of worms to open, RP or not. Just sayin'

Sorry. I was trying to make an analogy but I guess it was a poor one.

Face it, if we had copies of the Mike Huckabee Report with this stuff in it, we would treat it like a legitimate story, and shout it from the rooftops.

If that whole thing about 2 staffers being fired is true, the campaign should have named names and explained that, not given that pathetic press release.

Dammit, I'm done.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
01-08-2008, 11:00 PM
Face it, if we had copies of the Mike Huckabee Report with this stuff in it, we would treat it like a legitimate story, and shout it from the rooftops.

So, the truth no longer matters? Did it matter to you before? That's why I could never support Huckabee, actually.

Ricochet
01-08-2008, 11:03 PM
But Why Should We Tust Kirchick's Gut Instinct? Indeed, why should anyone trust him at all ever again? As I mentioned in my post last night, when I asked Kirchick weeks ago whether he actually thought Paul was a homophobe, he responded (by email):

I don’t think Ron Paul is a homophobe; I’m just cynical and enjoy getting supporters of political candidates riled up. If you were a Giuliani guy I’d have called him a fascist.

source: http://gays-for-ron.blogspot.com/2008/01/kirchicking-of-ron-paul.html

stepupnj
01-08-2008, 11:10 PM
It certainly gave me pause. I did a little reserach and Ron did in fact publish these newsletters with questionable content over the years. I really don't believe that he is a racist, but he must take responsibility for the content of these letters, even if he did not personally write some of the objectionable content.

I believe that this did have a significant impact in the NH primary. I also still believe that the message is SO critically important and needs to be continued. I hope the campaign can live on for a while and get the people thinking about an immmoral war and a 9 trillion dollar debt. Its so much more important than being concerned if I can afford to buy that flat screen TV at Walmart.

DaronWestbrooke
01-08-2008, 11:15 PM
It certainly gave me pause. I did a little reserach and Ron did in fact publish these newsletters with questionable content over the years. I really don't believe that he is a racist, but he must take responsibility for the content of these letters, even if he did not personally write some of the objectionable content.


We are running with the story the signatures on them are fake. Let's stick with that and not confuse it by putting out contradicting information.

RM918
01-08-2008, 11:29 PM
Christ, that poll is pathetic. Paul doesn't have a racist bone in his body and these things have been debunked over and over again. The only thing that depresses me about them is that so many have bought into Kirchek's horseshit. I'm not coming to this forum anymore, and I'm deleting my account if I can. This place is just depressing.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
01-08-2008, 11:32 PM
We are running with the story the signatures on them are fake. Let's stick with that and not confuse it by putting out contradicting information.


No, we aren't running with any story about anything, and nobody here has been elected as some sort of storyteller. Let it get hashed out with the time and attention it deserves. I want to run with the real "story." Others do too. We have a lot of smart people here, and things will look more clear in another day or so. There's no story to run with, because there's no evidence to support any story to run with.

RoyalTenenbaum
01-09-2008, 02:43 AM
I'm not concerned in the sense that it changes my opinion of Ron Paul. I don't think he holds the beliefs set forth in those Newsletters.

That being said, I fear these Newsletters will prevent any breakout to the upside among the general electorate. They will probably limit Paul's support to those who already like him, or a few others who get interested in the issues he discusses. I mean, think of how much traction candidates get with their negative ads when it involves a kind of bland issue like taxes, or campaign finance reform. If Paul ever started to make his move, the ads would start to roll featuing a Newsletter Called "The Ron Paul Newsletter" or whatever, with his signature, and then these views expressed. Think of how use of the word "macaca" totally sunk George Allen. That provided a much vaguer inference of racism than what we've got here.

It's upsetting because this has gotta be killing Paul personally. This trouble results from the fact that he lent his name to something he thought might advance the cause of liberty, and the loonie toons who did the writing betrayed that generosity. The trust he put in the writers probably is more the result of his belief in the goodness of people - think of his firm belief that we can influence the world for the better by good example. Unfortunately, whoever was writing those things used Pauls popularity and name, generously given, to spread their own wackjob views. Paul feels a great amount of responsibility for this movement, and I'm sure this really bothers him.

I know that one of the wonderful effects of the Ron Paul Revolution is a large number of people looking to get politically involved and run for office. Let this be a lesson to us all to exercise diligence in our affairs and prudence in our words and associations.