A morally justifiable usurpation- North Korea.

[Thatguyuknow]

I doubt anyone really thinks about the plight of North Koreans on a day to day basis. I know what's going through everyone's heads as they read this "stay out of foreign affairs -- don't spread our message with guns" Well, what about those people who cannot even hold a chance of organizing an over throw of their government? Who are so binded, that dissent gets them sent to concentration camps and killed. Where famines and hunger - disease and poverty consumes millions. Where thousands try to cross the border into China only to be beaten with batons and guns. Where Kim Jung Ill is praised as a god and made into one. Thus the machine of death and control is set up very much like Hitler's and Stalin's and Mao's machines. If German U. boats never attacked American ships, should we never have challenged the Nazi's? Allowed them to slay and kill Jews?

You may say that war cannot spread the message accurately and reasonably.. but I'm not saying going into full fledged war. I'm saying we stage a coup of Kim Jung and his military commanders. With them gone the discontent of the people will be allowed to express itself in a full fledged revolution. What use is saying "let them emulate us" if by trying they're murdered on the spot? This paradigm of fear is what is allowing this evil to propagate itself, and the propaganda.. ad infinitem.

This is seriously jeopardizing the integrity of the world's security, as the military of North Korea is building up and nuclear bombs are constructed. We cannot seriously allow such evil to exist and think it won't have significant ramifications.

I think in this case we need to get out this, "stay out of foreign affairs" as evil things happen because good people let it.. and unlike the middle east this is pretty clear cut what we should do.. what we know is right.

Hell, I'll kill the bastard. Give me a Rifle, a plane ticket, and a boat.. I'll get into Pyonyang and shoot Kim Jung Ill till blood cannot be distinguished from lead. Of course, I'll have to disguise myself as any white person found in N. korea is immediately incarcerated.

[wolv275]

no one says that intervention is out of the question. just that if it is a dire humanitarian responsibility for fellow humans to stand and help oppressed people in need, then let it be done through the congress and with the approval of the people.

[beermotor]

I've lived in SK. It's a great capitalistic wonder. We used to talk crap about Hyundais, but they are quickly becoming Toyota 2.0. I drive a Toyota Tacoma, heh. Anyway, one time a NK defector was on our train (I was, hrm, maybe 10 or 11) and he gave me some flowers. They (SKs) really loved Americans, because we helped keep them from being communists. However, I firmly believe that were it not for American interference, that country would be unified. If you got the threat of war out of there, they would work out their differences in very quick fashion. Because it makes no sense to keep the countries separate, especially given China's moves towards a freer economy. Command economies do NOT work, and the world is perfect proof of that. The only thing that keeps NK from erupting into violent revolution is the lack of population density. SK is something like 2x NK's population. It's not possible for NK to dominate SK. NK wants to integrate, they want to join the western world, they just want to do it without being under the bootheel of the West. and who can blame them?

[beermotor]

Anyway the best way to overthrow a bad government is with free trade and ideas. They always win. We never bombed the Soviets, did we? Nope.

Nor the Poles, Georgians, Germans, etc.

[jonahtrainer]

Well, what about those people who cannot even hold a chance of organizing an over throw of their government? Who are so binded, that dissent gets them sent to concentration camps and killed.

Somethings are very painful for the heart to bear. However, we should get our own house in order before we go messing around with other houses. We could spend all our strength, and have already spent much of it, trying to correct the world's problems and it would not make a difference. Besides, for all you know we have concentration camps (http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7B62C8724D-AE8A-4B5C-94C7-70171315C0A0%7D&dateid=38741.5136277662-858254656) on US soil with torture (http://www.amazon.com/Torture-Taxi-Trail-Rendition-Flights/dp/1933633093/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-6536319-5838552?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184901645&sr=8-1) and murder.

Remember, in Germany the Enabling Act and Reichstag Fire Decree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_Fire_Decree) (suspending Habeas Corpus) was passed in 1933. It was not until 1938 that most Germans realized what the SS had done and the rumors of concentration camps started getting out. Even in the US we denied the stories as being 'too outrageous.' Perhaps you should read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Third-Reich/dp/1567311636/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-6536319-5838552?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184901544&sr=8-1) and take a look in the mirror.

[Thatguyuknow]

The former soviets don't exactly like America. Just based off Russian sentiment, they still very much hate America and capitalism.. and Puton isn't exactly a good representative of our ideas of freedom.
Also, we did bomb Germany ... and so did the soviets.. if we/they didn't.. no amount of "freedom" spreading messages would be received.. they would only receive propaganda and tyranny would take over the world.

That being said, our war was in this case very useful, allowing atleast a part of the country to develop. Had North Korea won, you would basically see the same thing in North Korea in regular Korea. North Korea I very much doubt wants to unite with the west. If not because of the war, than by ideology. The leadership there isn't exactly 100% sane anyway.

You lived in South Korea? Neat. Ya, I hear they are very pro-American as well. It is a good thing we kept them free.

[Thatguyuknow]

Somethings are very painful for the heart to bear. However, we should get our own house in order before we go messing around with other houses. We could spend all our strength, and have already spent much of it, trying to correct the world's problems and it would not make a difference. Besides, for all you know we have concentration camps (http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid=%7B62C8724D-AE8A-4B5C-94C7-70171315C0A0%7D&dateid=38741.5136277662-858254656) on US soil with torture (http://www.amazon.com/Torture-Taxi-Trail-Rendition-Flights/dp/1933633093/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-6536319-5838552?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184901645&sr=8-1) and murder.

Remember, in Germany the Enabling Act and Reichstag Fire Decree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_Fire_Decree) (suspending Habeas Corpus) was passed in 1933. It was not until 1938 that most Germans realized what the SS had done and the rumors of concentration camps started getting out. Even in the US we denied the stories as being 'too outrageous.' Perhaps you should read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-Third-Reich/dp/1567311636/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-6536319-5838552?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184901544&sr=8-1) and take a look in the mirror.

To draw a comparison between what life theoretically can be like here is really inconsequential at the moment. North Korea isn't speculation. It is happening. It has been documented. To say that we should just tolerate it is totally against my morals. A heart can bear anything, but a conscience can not.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I say that we sit back and trade / talk with them, we don't have to be an enemy. If we sanction NK, we will indirectly be harming the people of NK... Let things take its course, SK is getting stronger while NK is getting weaker.

[Thatguyuknow]

I say that we sit back and trade / talk with them, we don't have to be an enemy. If we sanction NK, we will indirectly be harming the people of NK... Let things take its course, SK is getting stronger while NK is getting weaker.

We've done that.. We've given them nuclear power plants. We've given them trade agreements.. and it's all gone to buy their military more stuff. Nothing for the people, if anything sanctions prevent them from aquiring more resources for their military. Any trade we give them wouldn't go to the people.

I say we blow the ever loving shit out of Kim Jong Ill. Then we trade.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

We've done that.. We've given them nuclear power plants. We've given them trade agreements.. and it's all gone to buy their military more stuff. Nothing for the people, if anything sanctions prevent them from aquiring more resources for their military. Any trade we give them wouldn't go to the people.

I say we blow the ever loving shit out of Kim Jong Ill. Then we trade.

That's the problem... our government has done that, but why? Our government should stick to national defense and just talk... I think that they want to turn into a China, they have set up a few Hong Kong-like "Special Administrations." But I'm unsure....

[briatx]

No offense Thatguy, but it seems to me that this idea of morally justifyable invasions are exactly what got us into this mess in Iraq. I believe this was Hannity's defense in the post debate Ron Paul interview.

This doesn't register with me. And we will see more arguments in favor of "morally justified" invasions from Democrats with respect to Darfur.

[jblosser]

Why the notion we can only help by our government taking illegal action and sending the military over there? Most of us probably think something should be done but that doesn't give any of us the moral right to tell our citizens they must go do something. The last time we went to Korea, also for good reasons, we ended up with a draft. Compelling people to fight to the death or be arrested is an abomination.

If US citizens don't like what's going on they have every right to do something about it as individuals. They have no right to force other US citizens to forfeit their life, liberty, or property against their will.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

uh... nuking NK would devastate us in the international community.......

invading NK would very bloody....

We didn't need to do either or with the Soviet Union, so why do it now?

[jblosser]

Hell, I'll kill the bastard. Give me a Rifle, a plane ticket, and a boat.. I'll get into Pyonyang and shoot Kim Jung Ill till blood cannot be distinguished from lead. Of course, I'll have to disguise myself as any white person found in N. korea is immediately incarcerated.

Now this is the idea, except that you can't compel me to buy you anything. Buy your own rifle and plane ticket and boat. ;)

[Broadlighter]

I tell you what, take up some arms and go there yourself. I'm sure you can meet up with some Soldiers of Fortune to help you in the cause. Otherwise, we should follow our Constitution. If enough people feel about NK the way you do, Congress can pass a declaration of War.

That's the right way to do the right thing.

[DeadheadForPaul]

We should encourage trade with North Korea. The South Koreans have made a few experimental deals with opening up a few businesses in North Korea with the approval of both governments

One day there will be Liberty in North Korea (L.I.N.K.!)

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I have looked into North Korea:

Nuke: It would be idiotic, crazy, insane, stupid, retarded, ridiculous, outrage...pretty much every similar word of that. Do you know what China would do? LOL It just would... cause chaos, I think that the US would really be on its own in the international community... sanctions, sanctions...

Invasion: bloody as hell, not to mention that, yes, China has North Korea's back! So there goes that one. They're, what? 25 mill? The country would have a major population reduction, that's all I have to say about that!

Solution: talk....trade hope for the best, and protect ourselves

[david.griffus]

Why the notion we can only help by our government taking illegal action and sending the military over there? Most of us probably think something should be done but that doesn't give any of us the moral right to tell our citizens they must go do something. The last time we went to Korea, also for good reasons, we ended up with a draft. Compelling people to fight to the death or be arrested is an abomination.

If US citizens don't like what's going on they have every right to do something about it as individuals. They have no right to force other US citizens to forfeit their life, liberty, or property against their will.

You are a wise man. The best thing we can do for now is to trade with them. The richer their people get, the more they will hate government and want to overthrow Kim Jong-Il. Just look at what is happening in China. Prosperity causes people to hate government.

[Kuldebar]

Why the notion we can only help by our government taking illegal action and sending the military over there? Most of us probably think something should be done but that doesn't give any of us the moral right to tell our citizens they must go do something. The last time we went to Korea, also for good reasons, we ended up with a draft. Compelling people to fight to the death or be arrested is an abomination.

If US citizens don't like what's going on they have every right to do something about it as individuals. They have no right to force other US citizens to forfeit their life, liberty, or property against their will.

Yes, in a free country, that's how things work. Look at our nation prior to the "official" entry into WW1.

[american.swan]

I am glad someone brought this up.

I am not an expert on North Korea by any stretch of the imagination. I will say that I reside in South Korea currently, have been here for 4+ years and am married to a South Korean.

North Korea and South Korea will not unit simply because goverments have a life of their own. The cultures alone don't match anymore. They won't be able to get along.

North Korea does want to open up. Trading with them on a mass scale would affect them a lot and I think in a positive way.

North Korea is seeking to open up their markets like China, but they should be praised in some small way. I wouldn't want whatever the WTO or IMF would give them to get going. South Korea is trying to get a FTA passed with the USA and the USA requires South Korea to accept the WTO's TRIPS agreement, which is going to more than likely increase prices in South Korea a lot in some areas, especially drugs. North Korea, God help them, shouldn't accept anything WTO or IMF related. North Korea is very anti-world government in my view, just like us, and I think their culture might be better then South Korea's too.

just my 2cents

[JosephTheLibertarian]

You are a wise man. The best thing we can do for now is to trade with them. The richer their people get, the more they will hate government and want to overthrow Kim Jong-Il. Just look at what is happening in China. Prosperity causes people to hate government.

yes.. why sacrifice ourselves for the horrible economic and political policies of North Korea? If any nation should be worrying, it would be South Korea!

[constituent]

Hey, remember that whacked out cult leader who used to hold large wedding ceremonies in baseball fields? Rev. Sun Myung Moon... yea, the Washinton Times guy (and so many other things). Does anyone remember why congress decided to investigate him and his connections to the CIA? Didn't it have something to do with using NK as the trigger for a larger war with China? pretty sure.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I hope China just would annex North Korea, China actually has some...brains.. heyyyy maybe North Korea is China's prison?? LOL