Mike vs The Marines - The Full Story

[tomveil]

So as none of you read last week (because it was on my live journal), I got into a debate with a customer in my store who's a Marine Recruiter. Tonight we got part two! I thought it was funny, so here's the story (First part copied from my LJ)

Mike takes on The Marines - Hilarity ensues

Tonight John (who's a Marine Recruiter) comes into the store and sees my Ron Paul slim-jims on the counter. The conversation goes as follows (Paraphrased for my bad memory):

John: "Ron Paul, huh?"
Me: "For sure!"
J: "So what's he stand for?"
M: "Well, for starters, he wants to cut the income tax and bring our troops home."
J: "Bring our troops home?!? Is he crazy?"
M: "Well, he knows that we're going broke and that this empire is unsustainable. He doesn't just want to bring them home from Iraq, but from Korea and Japan and Europe and everywhere."
J: "That's nuts. How will we defend ourselves in the Middle East?"
M: "We won't be there, that will help."

(Snickers from the audience who, at this point, has started to gather around)

J: "You know why we're there now, right?" (He proceeds to tell me about the Shaw of Iran, Saddam, etc)
M: "And?"
J: "And! We need to keep conflict in that region! Otherwise they will all band together, and it will be bigger than any Jihad we've ever seen! Then where will we be?"
M: "I see. And why do you think that they hate us?"
J: "I don't know."
M: "Well, I think it's because we overthrew the Shaw, then backed Saddam, then killed Saddam....do you see the problem with your logic?"

(The crowd erupts in laughter and applause)

End round 1

Tonight he comes back into the store.

J: "So I looked up this Ron Paul guy on the website you told me about....you have any more information?"

*Hands him a Ron Paul DVD* "You know, he gets more donations from military servicemen than any other candidate."

J: "Really? Damn. See you next week"

The moral of the story - you NEVER know where you'll find somebody who's receptive to the story! Last week I totally was arguing with this guy for the sake of the people listening, to make them think. Never in a hundred years did I think that he'd come in and ask for more information!

[aspiringconstitutionalist]

So as none of you read last week (because it was on my live journal), I got into a debate with a customer in my store who's a Marine Recruiter. Tonight we got part two! I thought it was funny, so here's the story (First part copied from my LJ)

Mike takes on The Marines - Hilarity ensues

Tonight John (who's a Marine Recruiter) comes into the store and sees my Ron Paul slim-jims on the counter. The conversation goes as follows (Paraphrased for my bad memory):

John: "Ron Paul, huh?"
Me: "For sure!"
J: "So what's he stand for?"
M: "Well, for starters, he wants to cut the income tax and bring our troops home."
J: "Bring our troops home?!? Is he crazy?"
M: "Well, he knows that we're going broke and that this empire is unsustainable. He doesn't just want to bring them home from Iraq, but from Korea and Japan and Europe and everywhere."
J: "That's nuts. How will we defend ourselves in the Middle East?"
M: "We won't be there, that will help."

(Snickers from the audience who, at this point, has started to gather around)

J: "You know why we're there now, right?" (He proceeds to tell me about the Shaw of Iran, Saddam, etc)
M: "And?"
J: "And! We need to keep conflict in that region! Otherwise they will all band together, and it will be bigger than any Jihad we've ever seen! Then where will we be?"
M: "I see. And why do you think that they hate us?"
J: "I don't know."
M: "Well, I think it's because we overthrew the Shaw, then backed Saddam, then killed Saddam....do you see the problem with your logic?"

(The crowd erupts in laughter and applause)

End round 1

Tonight he comes back into the store.

J: "So I looked up this Ron Paul guy on the website you told me about....you have any more information?"

*Hands him a Ron Paul DVD* "You know, he gets more donations from military servicemen than any other candidate."

J: "Really? Damn. See you next week"

The moral of the story - you NEVER know where you'll find somebody who's receptive to the story! Last week I totally was arguing with this guy for the sake of the people listening, to make them think. Never in a hundred years did I think that he'd come in and ask for more information!

Was there really a crowd? xD

[Ron2Win]

My rhetoric:

The Neocon conservative argument: We fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here.

Completely dumb, because if American soldiers are dying over there, then what good is the war?

It's still a Dead American.

Is an American's soldiers life less important than yours or mine? Not really.

Are there more terrorist now or before the invasion of Iraq?

Has Iran attacked us? Then why should 1 American die?

[tomveil]

Was there really a crowd? xD

Oh yeah. I own a card game store (Magic and such if any of you are geeks). I've got Ron Paul stuff up around everywhere (we do our meetups here), so a lot of the people here are voting for him (First time voters FTW!). The exchange got rather...umm....heated, and it was slowing down the tournament. So we had probably 10 people or so listening to us. I'd say that of those, I have 4 solid RP votes, a couple on the fence, and the rest are under voting age.

Many of the same guys were here tonight as well to see part two :)

[VoluntaryMan]

Good goin', Tom!

[Akus]

So as none of you read last week (because it was on my live journal), I got into................

..............Last week I totally was arguing with this guy for the sake of the people listening, to make them think. Never in a hundred years did I think that he'd come in and ask for more information!
Thank you. This was an inspiring dialogue. I usually let people know about Ron paul, but, out of fear of seeming a zealot and annoying, I don't debate people who think that Ron Paul is an isolationist.

[tomveil]

Thank you. This was an inspiring dialogue. I usually let people know about Ron paul, but, out of fear of seeming a zealot and annoying, I don't debate people who think that Ron Paul is an isolationist.

I was pretty floored myself :) It's a fine line to walk, and I'm glad that I have the buisness-card sized phone #s. (For those of you who haven't seen them, it gives a # to call and then has a bunch of subjects from which they can choose, and listen to roughly 5 minute speeches.) They are GREAT because people can choose what matters to them, and RP explains his positions better than I can :)

[JMO]

I know it's anal because I knew what you meant, and I make similar mistakes. just for future info its Shah not shaw. Now I know you will be able to pay me back some day :)

BTW good going. Just bringing the DR attention to someone is huge, he went from hating Ron Paul's views to researching his views, thats a big positive.

[Freedom]

My rhetoric:

The Neocon conservative argument: We fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here.


Here's what I like to say to the "fight 'em there, so we don't fight 'em here" crowd:

Imagine you are an "Islamo-Fascist Terrorist (IFT)" and you hate the United States because we are free and prosperous. Would you rather attack a hardened US military target that can fight back or would you rather attack a bunch of helpless civilians that can't fight back?

If you are an experienced IFT like al Queda, you would prefer the helpess civilians like what happened on 9/11. So with most of our troops deployed in 130+ countries other than here at home, America looks like a pretty soft target for the IFTs to attack.

So why, in over seven years, has there not been a single attack on American soil, yet there have been thousands of attacks on our military in Iraq? What is the reason that experienced IFTs like al Queda are attacking hardened military targets and not soft civilian targets?

It's because they don't have any way to get here! They have no navy and they have no air force, so they are forced to attack where they can get to us, which is in the Middle East!

If we bring our troops home like Ron Paul says, they won't have any way to attack us. They don't have a way to get here, and if they did, our troops would be here to defend us.

[tomveil]

Oh My God

Round 3:

I'm sitting here watching the Bill Moyers interview with another RP supporter (who I didn't know was a RP supporter until today). John comes up wanting to get something, so I invite him to sit in my chair and watch the rest of the interview (starting part 3). I come back after getting his item, and he pauses the interview to ask a question. I answer, and we keep watching. He pauses again, asks a question. (Transitioning to sound money) I tell him that honestly that stuff goes over my head, but he's written extensively about it. The interview ends and we keep talking about everything. He's not sold on the foreign policy, but I can tell that the economics is interesting to him.

Then another customer comes up and sees what we're watching. He starts talking, and JOHN COUNTERS HIS ARGUMENTS FOR RON PAUL!!!!

In one week, this guy went from "He's nuts" to DEFENDING RON PAUL AGAINST OTHERS! I couldn't wait until he went to play his last round so I could post this!!!

I then handed a voter registration and a RP DVD to another customer who was going to vote for Obama. He read the outside of the DVD and was like "OMG THIS GUY IS THE MAN! You got another convert!"

O_O

[Xonox]

Freedom is popular.
(pretty soon Huck's going to be saying that one too, LOL)

[tomveil]

Freedom is popular.
(pretty soon Huck's going to be saying that one too, LOL)

He'll transition it into something awful.

"Huckadom is Huckular!"

[prlgrl]

Here's what I like to say to the "fight 'em there, so we don't fight 'em here" crowd:

Imagine you are an "Islamo-Fascist Terrorist (IFT)" and you hate the United States because we are free and prosperous. Would you rather attack a hardened US military target that can fight back or would you rather attack a bunch of helpless civilians that can't fight back?

If you are an experienced IFT like al Queda, you would prefer the helpess civilians like what happened on 9/11. So with most of our troops deployed in 130+ countries other than here at home, America looks like a pretty soft target for the IFTs to attack.

So why, in over seven years, has there not been a single attack on American soil, yet there have been thousands of attacks on our military in Iraq? What is the reason that experienced IFTs like al Queda are attacking hardened military targets and not soft civilian targets?

It's because they don't have any way to get here! They have no navy and they have no air force, so they are forced to attack where they can get to us, which is in the Middle East!

If we bring our troops home like Ron Paul says, they won't have any way to attack us. They don't have a way to get here, and if they did, our troops would be here to defend us.
Why can't people see the sense in this? I just (well, hours ago actually) explained to my 10 y.o. why I was supporting Ron Paul and how much I would be working for the campaign. I wanted her to know how important it was. Guess what? She gets it.

[tomveil]

Why can't people see the sense in this? I just (well, hours ago actually) explained to my 10 y.o. why I was supporting Ron Paul and how much I would be working for the campaign. I wanted her to know how important it was. Guess what? She gets it.

It would probably be easier to convert 10 year olds than 60 year olds ;)

[TwiLeXia]

Oh yeah. I own a card game store (Magic and such if any of you are geeks). I've got Ron Paul stuff up around everywhere (we do our meetups here), so a lot of the people here are voting for him (First time voters FTW!). The exchange got rather...umm....heated, and it was slowing down the tournament. So we had probably 10 people or so listening to us. I'd say that of those, I have 4 solid RP votes, a couple on the fence, and the rest are under voting age.

Many of the same guys were here tonight as well to see part two :)

Haha yea Magic's awesome, I play it too - mainly drafting. Good job man, I think it's really good for private stores, churches, and businesses to support Ron Paul, because everyone who goes there is basically gonna wonder about Dr. Paul.

Great job debating that neocon!

[prlgrl]

It would probably be easier to convert 10 year olds than 60 year olds ;)True. She was studying the Amendments to the Constitution in school-she had to choose one and create a drawing to show what it meant. We didn't get past the first one. After I explained the concept of freedom of speech, she said: "you mean I can make a sign and march and there are some countries where they can't?". She then proceeded to draw a poster of 5th graders marching with signs that said: "No School Uniforms!"; "Uniforms Stink"; and "Uniforms" with a big X through it. (Can you tell uniforms are an issue?) Easy one to understand, but she got it in ten seconds. Cute drawing, too.

[tomveil]

True. She was studying the Amendments to the Constitution in school-she had to choose one and create a drawing to show what it meant. We didn't get past the first one. After I explained the concept of freedom of speech, she said: "you mean I can make a sign and march and there are some countries where they can't?". She then proceeded to draw a poster of 5th graders marching with signs that said: "No School Uniforms!"; "Uniforms Stink"; and "Uniforms" with a big X through it. (Can you tell uniforms are an issue?) Easy one to understand, but she got it in ten seconds. Cute drawing, too.

The next generation, man. It'll be so much more informed than any other generation (barring govt interference).

I've talked to my friends about this, and I fully believe that when this current group of kids her age gets to be "in power", we'll have a lot less problems. The internet shrinks the world and lets us realize that the "other" side isn't monstrous. The interactions that they will have on a regular basis with people "different" than them will shape their world in a way we can't even imagine. I hope I get to see it.

[Bilgefisher]

People get it when they finally hear the message, problem is many just haven't heard his message. Keep up the good work.

[Gimme Some Truth]

M: "I see. And why do you think that they hate us?"
J: "I don't know."
M: "Well, I think it's because we overthrew the Shaw, then backed Saddam, then killed Saddam....do you see the problem with your logic?"

(The crowd erupts in laughter and applause)


I think we (US and UK) overthrew Mossadeq (the democratically elected president of Iran) and installed the Shaw (brutal dictator ,who were in power beforehand) on the behest of BP(British Petroleum) because Mossadeq was going to keep most of its oil for its own people. The Shaw promised us control of Iran's oil in exchange for power. I dont think we ever overthrew the Shaw . The fact we practically enslave Middle Eastern people under brutal puppet dictators for our own greed is what angers them aswell as the occupation via bases on holy lands etc

[tomveil]

I think we (US and UK) overthrew Mossadeq (the democratically elected president of Iran) and installed the Shaw (brutal dictator ,who were in power beforehand) on the behest of BP(British Petroleum) because Mossadeq was going to keep most of its oil for its own people. The Shaw promised us control of Iran's oil in exchange for power. I dont think we ever overthrew the Shaw . The fact we practically enslave Middle Eastern people under brutal puppet dictators for our own greed is what angers them aswell as the occupation via bases on holy lands etc

*oops*

*Embarassed*

I sure hope that I said installed during the actual conversation......*laugh*

[DaneKirk]

Here's what I like to say to the "fight 'em there, so we don't fight 'em here" crowd:

Imagine you are an "Islamo-Fascist Terrorist (IFT)" and you hate the United States because we are free and prosperous. Would you rather attack a hardened US military target that can fight back or would you rather attack a bunch of helpless civilians that can't fight back?

If you are an experienced IFT like al Queda, you would prefer the helpess civilians like what happened on 9/11. So with most of our troops deployed in 130+ countries other than here at home, America looks like a pretty soft target for the IFTs to attack.

So why, in over seven years, has there not been a single attack on American soil, yet there have been thousands of attacks on our military in Iraq? What is the reason that experienced IFTs like al Queda are attacking hardened military targets and not soft civilian targets?

It's because they don't have any way to get here! They have no navy and they have no air force, so they are forced to attack where they can get to us, which is in the Middle East!

If we bring our troops home like Ron Paul says, they won't have any way to attack us. They don't have a way to get here, and if they did, our troops would be here to defend us.

I don't think that having more soldiers on Army bases in this country is going to help one bit. Those of us in the military don't patrol the streets. The only way we would come out is if there was a serious attack, like a dirty bomb or something that required our sealed combat vehicles to inspect contaminated areas. If anything we need more first responders.

[driller80545]

Couldn't the military train as first responders?

[tomveil]

I don't think that having more soldiers on Army bases in this country is going to help one bit. Those of us in the military don't patrol the streets. The only way we would come out is if there was a serious attack, like a dirty bomb or something that required our sealed combat vehicles to inspect contaminated areas. If anything we need more first responders.

Well, for one thing, it's going to help the economy. Soldiers spending $ and time here > soldiers spending their $ and time overseas.

For anybody crazy enough to think of attacking us, we'd have a stronger defense.

Who do you think is a threat?

[me3]

Tom, make sure you have voter registration forms in store. Let's get some people registered to vote, and registered with the campaign for the turn out the vote effort in your state!

[tomveil]

Tom, make sure you have voter registration forms in store. Let's get some people registered to vote, and registered with the campaign for the turn out the vote effort in your state!

Mailing 3 out today :)

[Thomas Paine]

The neocon hijackers of the Republican Party believe that you have to destroy a village in order to save it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5eXFeW0aI0&feature=related