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View Full Version : We need to seriously consider a PLAN B for RP, Unity 08




Orwell1984
01-04-2008, 04:28 PM
If I see the campaign correctly, Unity08 might become VERY important for Dr. Paul. I'm not pessimistic about his campaign, but realistically, what are his chances of winning the republican nomination? I'm not saying he can't pick up 10, 15, 20, or even 30% of the Republican vote. He could do 'very' well. But that's no 51%. If Paul falls short of this by even a single delegate, he'll have to face the possibility of having one of the greatest modern grassroots campaigns and nothing to do with it. Unless... unless that by the time Guiliani and Hillary have sealed their Party spots, enough of the country is seriously confused about how their parties candidates simply do not speak for them, and unenthused about going to campaign for two indistinguishable insider bureaucrats, they decide they want another option. This is where a Ron Paul Unity ticket could become a major movement. It could be a left-right movement, like Paul-Kucinich...or it could simply give Paul a forum to continue his campaign a la Paul-Dobbs. I don't know what would come of all of this, but I think it's going to be more relevant in the next few months. Lastly, consider who is really going to use Unity? I don't mean in the long-run, when it could be a functional 3rd party or even a new paradigm for the entire democratic system. I just mean its FIRST go-round. Are Newt Gingrich and Wesley Clark 'really' going to pal-up against Guiliani and Clinton in a 3-way DC heavy-hitter death match? I don't think so. More likely, Unity, if it pursues such a "centrist", "mainstream" ticket will simply be brushed off as a well-intentioned novelty and fall by the wayside of other political social networking sites. Unless... there is a already a movement that can use this forum and this format to both innovate and extend its campaign presence and purpose. I think Ron Paul and his trusty Revolution could do that. What do you think?

I think it would be foolish to put all our eggs in one basket and only consider RP for the Republican nomination. I mean that would be the ideal situation. But obviously, this isn't an ideal world. The RP grassroots community need to seriously consider a "PLAN B". The Plan B is Unity 08!

www.unity08.com

DealzOnWheelz
01-04-2008, 04:41 PM
I'm not opposed to that

But theres a GREAT chance of a CONVENTION

Which is what we would like to see
and then we can stress to the GOP if he doesn't get the nom the GOP will 100% lose the election

and there are enough people that are strict die hard GOPers that we could take it

and if not

We run third party


And I don't think the nom would be rudy at all better chance of Romney

Redcard
01-04-2008, 04:42 PM
Uh.

You think Rudy is going to last that long?

Karsten
01-04-2008, 04:44 PM
We could win in a 3rd party run. I wish the campaign was not so steadfastly against this idea.

r3volution
01-04-2008, 04:45 PM
troll

xerxesdarius
01-04-2008, 04:55 PM
A third party with ballot access in 45+ states is already in place, it is called the Libertarian party. Troll.

Orwell1984
01-04-2008, 05:00 PM
We could win in a 3rd party run. I wish the campaign was not so steadfastly against this idea.

I feel you Karsten. I don't think RP is as steadfast as he seems. I think he doesnt want to tell the media he is considering a 3rd Party ticket because he wants to media to take him seriously. IF he tells the media he wants to run 3rd party, they will write him off even more than they already are. But if he looses the nomination, then he will run 3rd party if enough people petition him to do so. If I understand the situation correctly, the whole reason RP is running is because a lot of people got together and asked him.

The RP grassroots needs to consolidate their supporters into Unity 08. So in case RP loses the Republican nomination, we can all petition him through Unity 08. As for as Unity 08 itself is concerned, we can shape it into whatever we want because there are more RP supporters than anyone else.

Orwell1984
01-04-2008, 05:07 PM
A third party with ballot access in 45+ states is already in place, it is called the Libertarian party. Troll.

OK, first of all what the hell is a troll. Grow Up! If RP goes with the Libertarian Party, he will not even get into the debates. I don't even think he could win as an LP candidate. He would be better off going Indepandant. Unity 08 actually allows people to SHAPE the party in the way they want. The Libertarian Party flexible, in fact I think the supporters are too disorganized to really make an impact. Thats just my opinion though. Unity 08 is a good platform because RPs support is internet driven, just like Unity 08.

Redcard
01-04-2008, 05:18 PM
OK, first of all what the hell is a troll. Grow Up! If RP goes with the Libertarian Party, he will not even get into the debates. I don't even think he could win as an LP candidate. He would be better off going Indepandant. Unity 08 actually allows people to SHAPE the party in the way they want. The Libertarian Party flexible, in fact I think the supporters are too disorganized to really make an impact. Thats just my opinion though. Unity 08 is a good platform because RPs support is internet driven, just like Unity 08.

Give me a break. You're an idiot. The LP has been around forever. And Unity? Oh, since 2006. Flexible. Jeeze. Don't you get it? Ron Paul is in this thing to WIN. Not to become an experiment.

me3
01-04-2008, 05:23 PM
Unity 08 is a joke. Have you seen the platform?

Redcard
01-04-2008, 05:24 PM
Unity 08 is a joke. Have you seen the platform?

Which one? You vote on it as time goes by.

pcosmar
01-04-2008, 05:25 PM
Mixing Liberty with slavery.
Freedom with servitude.
Individualism with collectivism.:confused:

Good idea there.:rolleyes:

RPinSEAZ
01-04-2008, 05:33 PM
Unity 08's issues are the epitome of what's wrong with America right now. I thought of all people, Ron Paul supporters would get it. We are not collectivists.

The Federal Government shouldn't do shit, but protect our rights and the nation's sovereignty. Everything else is a violation of the constitution.

Orwell1984
01-05-2008, 08:07 AM
Unity 08's issues are the epitome of what's wrong with America right now. I thought of all people, Ron Paul supporters would get it. We are not collectivists.

The Federal Government shouldn't do shit, but protect our rights and the nation's sovereignty. Everything else is a violation of the constitution.

Unity 08 doesn't have any "issues" that are written in stone. The "issues" are voted on by the members of Unity 08 and they are prioritized acordingly. Unity 08 has a little over 100,000 members, thats not a lot of people voting for the issues. There are a lot more RP supporters. If they joined and voted for the issues that they care for then Unity 08 would change its priority on the "issues". Another thing is that Unity 08 has their "issues" ranked but the solutions are more open for discussion.

As far as the "collectivism" comment, I take it that you are an Objectivist. Thats fine, I like Ayn Rand too. With Unity 08, I think your confusing "collectivsm" with Democracy. Democracy is collective in nature.

ecliptic
01-05-2008, 09:35 AM
This is how we splinter into smaller "factions" and fail. We are Republicans now - get used to that. All discussion of third party is harmful. Period. Want to win? Then join the Republican party and GET INVOLVED in a positive manner.

cswake
01-05-2008, 09:40 AM
Correction:
We are Ron Paul Republicans now - get used to that.

acroso
01-05-2008, 09:42 AM
troll

WilliamC
01-05-2008, 09:53 AM
Correction:
We are Ron Paul Republicans now - get used to that.

That's right, if we want to maintain this coalition we need to follow Ron Paul's lead for now. Even if he loses the nomination and only gets re-elected to Congress he could become the most influential member of Congress if we keep our support behind him. In time there will come other candidates who are worth supporting, for instance Congressman Paul Broun in Georgia (http://broun.house.gov/) and Governor Mark Sanford of South Carolina (http://www.scgovernor.com/). As others see the success Ron Paul has because of his political positions some will come around to supporting him. This movement is only beginning.

Hayek's Heroes
01-05-2008, 10:17 AM
That's right, if we want to maintain this coalition we need to follow Ron Paul's lead for now. Even if he loses the nomination and only gets re-elected to Congress he could become the most influential member of Congress if we keep our support behind him. In time there will come other candidates who are worth supporting, for instance Congressman Paul Broun in Georgia (http://broun.house.gov/) and Governor Mark Sanford of South Carolina (http://www.scgovernor.com/). As others see the success Ron Paul has because of his political positions some will come around to supporting him. This movement is only beginning.

Agreed. The only way to keep the momentum is to take back the Republican Party. The Neocon/Evangelical partnership that took over the party is splintering. It's time for the Goldwater conservatives to step up to the plate.

There should be a Plan C for after the election cycle for the grassroots. If you really want to have an impact we should try to get a Balanced Budget Amendment going. The only way to shrink government is to cut the funding. Any thoughts? In the past I was against the BBA due to the lack of flexibility it gives the govt, but after seeing what is going on in America it seems like the only way.

WilliamC
01-05-2008, 11:09 AM
Agreed. The only way to keep the momentum is to take back the Republican Party. The Neocon/Evangelical partnership that took over the party is splintering. It's time for the Goldwater conservatives to step up to the plate.

There should be a Plan C for after the election cycle for the grassroots. If you really want to have an impact we should try to get a Balanced Budget Amendment going. The only way to shrink government is to cut the funding. Any thoughts? In the past I was against the BBA due to the lack of flexibility it gives the govt, but after seeing what is going on in America it seems like the only way.

Balanced Budget amendment would be good. It could allow for an exception during times of Congressionally declared war.

Hayek's Heroes
01-05-2008, 11:59 AM
Balanced Budget amendment would be good. It could allow for an exception during times of Congressionally declared war.

The war issue was always the problem. I'm inclined to pass it without the exception. It would make a Declaration of War harder to pass.

1000-points-of-fright
01-05-2008, 12:42 PM
The whole Unity idea is stupid. Oh, it sounds nice and all but will accomplish nothing at best or disaster at worst. It's just another buzz word like bi-partisan and consensus. When two opposing philosophies come to a bi-partisan consensus one of two things happens: Nothing changes or the worst ideas of both philosophies get implemented.

NoVALady
01-05-2008, 04:32 PM
If I see the campaign correctly, Unity08 might become VERY important for Dr. Paul. I'm not pessimistic about his campaign, but realistically, what are his chances of winning the republican nomination? I'm not saying he can't pick up 10, 15, 20, or even 30% of the Republican vote. He could do 'very' well. But that's no 51%. If Paul falls short of this by even a single delegate, he'll have to face the possibility of having one of the greatest modern grassroots campaigns and nothing to do with it. Unless... unless that by the time Guiliani and Hillary have sealed their Party spots, enough of the country is seriously confused about how their parties candidates simply do not speak for them, and unenthused about going to campaign for two indistinguishable insider bureaucrats, they decide they want another option. This is where a Ron Paul Unity ticket could become a major movement. It could be a left-right movement, like Paul-Kucinich...or it could simply give Paul a forum to continue his campaign a la Paul-Dobbs. I don't know what would come of all of this, but I think it's going to be more relevant in the next few months. Lastly, consider who is really going to use Unity? I don't mean in the long-run, when it could be a functional 3rd party or even a new paradigm for the entire democratic system. I just mean its FIRST go-round. Are Newt Gingrich and Wesley Clark 'really' going to pal-up against Guiliani and Clinton in a 3-way DC heavy-hitter death match? I don't think so. More likely, Unity, if it pursues such a "centrist", "mainstream" ticket will simply be brushed off as a well-intentioned novelty and fall by the wayside of other political social networking sites. Unless... there is a already a movement that can use this forum and this format to both innovate and extend its campaign presence and purpose. I think Ron Paul and his trusty Revolution could do that. What do you think?

I think it would be foolish to put all our eggs in one basket and only consider RP for the Republican nomination. I mean that would be the ideal situation. But obviously, this isn't an ideal world. The RP grassroots community need to seriously consider a "PLAN B". The Plan B is Unity 08!

www.unity08.com


I was canvassing for Dr. Paul today when someone (Obama supporter) told me about Unity08. I had never heard of it so I checked it out. I just don't know enough about Unity08 to know whether it would be the "kiss of death" for the RP revolution but I do see a number of parallels between the Unity08 concept and some of the tenets of the RP revolution i.e., return power to the people, leverage technology, force a paradigm shift in Washington, etc. I trust the people on this forum to have a thoughtful debate on whether Unity08 is a viable plan B. The namecalling is not necessary. How do we make this a sticky topic? Thanks.

dvictr
01-05-2008, 04:41 PM
some people do not like this conversation but i agree..


the american voters have three option is 2008.



"Quasi Change": Bigger Government/Withdrawal timetable in Iraq - Barrack/ Hillary

"Status Quo": Maintaing Gov. power/more spending in oversea military - McCain/Rudy/Romeny

RON PAUL: Less Government/ spread democracy by example/ More civil liberites


At this point we have to concentrate to get as many voters on the record between now and feb. 5th for RON PAUL ... there needs to be a record that a significant part of the REPUBLICAN party will abandon the GOP party if RON PAUL is not the nomination. The GOP cannot afford to lose Ron Paul supporters to the socialists in 2008..


IMAGE a JULY 4th money bomb... the real REVOLUTION money bomb!

MayTheRonBeWithYou
01-05-2008, 04:48 PM
A third party with ballot access in 45+ states is already in place, it is called the Libertarian party.

Yep.

DaneKirk
01-05-2008, 04:50 PM
The war issue was always the problem. I'm inclined to pass it without the exception. It would make a Declaration of War harder to pass.

If it is declared by Congress then who cares. During a war there are many expenses that pop up and there may be deficits for small amounts of time. Nothing wrong with that, with Ron we would eventually have a ton of sound money saved up and would not have to worry about it.

Orwell1984
01-05-2008, 06:00 PM
That's right, if we want to maintain this coalition we need to follow Ron Paul's lead for now. Even if he loses the nomination and only gets re-elected to Congress he could become the most influential member of Congress if we keep our support behind him. In time there will come other candidates who are worth supporting, for instance Congressman Paul Broun in Georgia (http://broun.house.gov/) and Governor Mark Sanford of South Carolina (http://www.scgovernor.com/). As others see the success Ron Paul has because of his political positions some will come around to supporting him. This movement is only beginning.

Ok, at first I thought some of you naysayers were just being hard headed, but your starting to have a point. The Republican Party is going to implode because its infested with Neoconservatives and Evangelical Christians. This leaves a perfect opportunity for Ron Paul to take the debris and rebuild a libertarian constitutionalist Republican Party.

However, Unity 08 may still be useful. Not useful in the way I originally suggested. Since Unity 08 is more liberal than anything, it can be useful to create and support Democratic/libertarians. Neoconservatives exist in the Democratic party also. Unity 08 can be a tool to destroy the current Democratic party and rebuild it. Libertarians do not want to abolish the welfare state in one instant sweep. They don't want to because they understand that the American public is too dependant on government. It would create a disaster if they did that. Ron Paul and others are suggesting progressive reforms that slowly phase out government in Public education, health care, etc. So what Unity 08 can do is create liberal liberarians who are socially liberal, fiscally conservative (at least serious about balancing the budget), and are able to meet libertarian conservatives at least half way and create welfare reforms that help the lower/middle class but phase government out.

One example of what I'm saying would be universal health care. Instead of having a single government run socialist system that tries to take care of everybody; have tax credits. Give lower/middle class people who cant afford health care a tax credit (like 50-150 bucks a month) and they take that money and choose a health insurance program. Also have competition for health insurance across state lines to provide even more competition. The less money a person makes, the more their eligable for. The more they make, the less they get. Since they have the power of choice, insurance companies still have to compete for their money. Thus, keeping costs low and quality high. Thats an example of a liberal economic policy that can achieve libertarian and conservative end of the long run.

I think we need to fight for our revolution from not only the Republican side but also the Democratic side. Unity 08 can help us fight the Democratic side by taking votes away from the Democratic Party. It will have spoiler effect like Ralph Nader had with the Green Party in 2000. This would also give Republicans an advantage. I would take any Republican (except for maybe Huckabee) over any of the Democrats.

Without calling me stupid immature names. Can someone give me some constructive feedback on my idea?

Trance Dance Master
01-05-2008, 06:08 PM
A third party with ballot access in 45+ states is already in place, it is called the Libertarian party. Troll.
I would like to see Martin Lindstedt get the Libertarian nomination, but unfortunately he had some trouble with the law.

http://www.spock.com/Martin-Lindstedt

Orwell1984
01-05-2008, 06:40 PM
I would like to see Martin Lindstedt get the Libertarian nomination, but unfortunately he had some trouble with the law.

http://www.spock.com/Martin-Lindstedt

Wayne Allen Root looks very interesting. I think hes a very good public speaker too. Is almost like RP, just a little different on foreign policy. I sort of think of him as Ron Paul 2.0.

www.rootforamerica.com

Here is a blog his posted recently:

IOWA PRIMARY OPENS THE DOOR TO THE PERFECT LIBERTARIAN STORM!
Friday, January 4, 2008, 09:00 AM
Iowa's primary results were amazing, interesting, and surprising to the national media. But they were thrilling to me- the frontrunner for the Libertarian Presidential nomination. As a matter of fact, I'd call them a "dream come true." Will they carry over to New Hampshire (where I'll be campaigning this weekend) and other early primary states? That I don't know- and neither does the media or political pundits. But I sure hope so.

With Huckabee and Obama as the candidates of the 2 major political parties- anyone who desires a smaller (and more limited) federal government, lower spending, lower taxes, a balanced budget and more rights for the individual can no longer rationalize voting for the "lesser of 2 evils." That excuse is out the window.

Obama is perhaps the worst big-government, soak the rich, tax and spend Democrat ever to run for President in modern times (yes that includes George McGovern and Ted Kennedy). He'll give you nothing but big...bigger...or super-sized government. He'll tax America into bankruptcy. But Republican Mike Huckabee provides no alternative. On the fiscal side, he too is a big-government, tax and spender. As Governor of Arkansas, Huckabee received a grade of "D" from the Cato Institute (a small government, fiscally conservative Libertarian research group)- lower than most liberal Democrat Governors. But worst of all, on the social side, Huckabee makes Obama look like a small government Libertarian. Huckabee is a big government, Nanny State religious zealot (a former Minister) who wants "Big Brother" to enforce his views on the rest of us. What a choice.

Then there's the third party possibilities. I predict not only that Mike Bloomberg will enter the Presidential sweepstakes, but quite possibly John McCain as well (teamed with Joe Lieberman as his VP). Both McCain and Bloomberg call themselves "fiscal conservatives," but in reality neither supports cutting government in any meaningful way. They are both actually liberal big government Republicans in the mode of former New York politicians Jacob Javits and Nelson Rockefeller. Neither Bloomberg nor McCain wants any radical changes in the size of government or spending or taxes. Both crave power- and to get it, they'll expand government, and cut deals (otherwise known as "bribes") with the electorate.

Bloomberg is a typical mega-wealthy big government businessman (a 21st century Nelson Rockefeller) who just wants to brag that he got the trains to run on time. Bloomberg stands for efficiency, status quo, and by all means protect big corporations (like his own). McCain voted against the Bush tax cuts twice, and was the architect of McCain-Feingold, which violated free speech (and the constitution). McCain is not exactly a smaller government Libertarian himself.

Now those are some really pathetic choices for anyone that wants less government. My prediction is that millions of Libertarians (with a big "L") and Libertarian-leaning voters (with a small "l"), and Libertarian Republicans will no longer in good conscience choose to hold their noses and vote for the "lesser of two evils." They will look for a small government alternative. And that will send them to one obvious place- The Libertarian Party. If Huckabee and Obama become the eventual nominees, I predict a seismic earthquake in American politics- what I would call a Libertarian Awakening. The pathetic big-government choices of the 2 major parties are accelerating the need for a 21st century Boston Tea Party- whether that be a Root Revolution or a Paul Revolution.

nate895
01-05-2008, 06:53 PM
Rememeber, we just have to get 1/3 or higher in most states to come out ahead at convention.

FreeTraveler
01-05-2008, 06:56 PM
troll
+1

Orwell1984
01-05-2008, 07:14 PM
troll

Thank you! I've learned something new today. I wasnt sure what a "troll" was until I looked it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll


The term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often erroneously used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument fallacy ad hominem.

Often, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives. Regardless of the circumstances, controversial posts may attract a particularly strong response from those unfamiliar with the robust dialogue found in some online, rather than physical, communities.

Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding encourages a true troll to continue disruptive posts — hence the often-seen warning "Please do not feed the troll".[citation needed]

Frequently, someone who has been labelled a troll by a group may seek to redeem their reputation by discrediting their opponents, for example by claiming that other members of the group are closed-minded, conspirators, or trolls themselves.


I'm sorry if my post is controversal to you. But it is necessary. However, I will take wikipedia's advice ignore you. Take Care!