My mom and grandfather just OWNED me...

[Starks]

Much like my father, they said he was nut that:

1. Is against a woman's right to choose. (which I believe in)
2. Is against giving aid to Israel.

I couldn't defend myself or Ron.

[torchbearer]

How about.. at least you know what he really stands for... and he doesn't take money from special interest? How about a sound currency and a humble foriegn policy?
Anyone can find a couple of things they don't agree with in a candidate.
Who do they support? I can find several things on any candidate that will make those 2 objections look mild in comparison.

[wtbuser]

1. I think more importantly than on how Ron personally feels on Abortion, you should have delivered the reality of abortion under a Ron Paul administration. Quite simply it would be left to local or state government to impose at their discretion. This is the best answer to such a hot issue, where the laws regarding abortion best represent those effected by them.
2. Quite simply explain that defending Israel is not listed in the constitution and secondly defending them has made us unsafe. Quite simply explain that Israel can honestly defend itself pretty well.

[BLS]

I suggest you explain that even though he's against pro choice, he also acknowledges that it's not the Presidents right (or Fed Govt) to decide for the nation. Each state should decide.

How long have you been a RP supporter??

[kalami]

I thought lefties were against aid to Israel because of all the humanity abuses.

[Oddball]

Much like my father, they said he was nut that:

1. Is against a woman's right to choose. (which I believe in)
2. Is against giving aid to Israel.

I couldn't defend myself or Ron.
1) He's not against a woman's right to choose. He's against the federal gubmint being involved, either way.

2) He's against aid to every foreign nation. Can't go around cherry picking, can we??

[jblosser]

If you let people define the debate in these terms, they will never elect someone that isn't willing to break the law for their own ends.

The primary point of Dr. Paul's campaign is the *rule of law*.

The Constitution spells out the President's job quite clearly, and it *does not* allow him to dictate policy on either of the points you raised. This does not mean that those things can't happen, it means that it's not his job to do it. His job involves other things. If we don't like that , there is a legal way to change his job, and that's the way to go about it. Changing it any other way is just "might makes right" and leads to horrible things.

How would they react if they established all these illegal powers for the president, then "their guy" lost and someone got into office who sided with Palestine and bombed Israel? The law is what should prevent this kind of arbitrary abuse of power from happening. Objectively standing behind the rule of law is what makes us free to actually take care of these other things that matter.

[Nathan Hale]

Much like my father, they said he was nut that:

1. Is against a woman's right to choose. (which I believe in)
2. Is against giving aid to Israel.

I couldn't defend myself or Ron.

If you got owned because he said THAT, you should really take some time and read up on Paul's positions.

[dspectre]

Much like my father, they said he was nut that:

1. Is against a woman's right to choose. (which I believe in)
2. Is against giving aid to Israel.

I couldn't defend myself or Ron.

Why don't you tell your father when does Israel's right to defend itself involve us? Ron Paul says they have hundreds on Nukes and are totally capable of defending themselves.

[ThePieSwindler]

Much like my father, they said he was nut that:

1. Is against a woman's right to choose. (which I believe in)
2. Is against giving aid to Israel.

I couldn't defend myself or Ron.

You can't defend yourself or Ron? Thats pretty pathetic, considering those reasons are easily countered... (which have already been mentioned so i won't rehash them).

[Roxi]

do other foriegn countries come to our aid for our poor, homeless, impoverished, diseased...or when we are attacked?

we should mind our own damn business

and RP is not against womens rights, hes FOR babies rights

either way his personal beliefs on abortion have no relevance to his candidacy, he wouldnt impose a federal ban on anything, if you live in a state where abortions are illegal, and you need to get one, then go to another state....

[tiznow]

Honestly i think the best way to go about it is to give them fair warning when he is on TV don't try to lay out all the issues for them. Nobody is likely to agree with everything he stands for he is a pretty radical guy to most older people. I didn't really tell my mom or grandma anything about him. I told them he'd be on ABC on sunday they both tuned in and our now fans and also supporting me financially to do grassroots actvities. My grandma sent me a letter as well as a check saying he makes alot of sense we need more like him.

Also now i got my mom calling me about him she saw him on cspan taking questions at the freedom fest my grandma tuned in too and that was the first time they were ever introduced to the idea of the north american union. Just yesterday she called me again and told me she was watching cspan in the morning and was amazed at the amount of ron paul supporters calling in when they opened the phones.

[angelatc]

do other foriegn countries come to our aid for our poor, homeless, impoverished, diseased...or when we are attacked?

....

Actually, they sent lots of money for 9-11 and Katrina. But that's because they're our friends, not because they were morally obligated.

[SwordOfShannarah]

I suggest you explain that even though he's against pro choice, he also acknowledges that it's not the Presidents right (or Fed Govt) to decide for the nation. Each state should decide.

How long have you been a RP supporter??

exactly.. doesn't sound like an RP supporter to me. The answers to these questions are really really basic.

[Misesian]

Starks!

Easy solution!

First and foremost familiarize yourself inside and out with our Constitution (read the Declaration a few times too as well to see how they declared independance against many of the same things we have now to a much worse degree even at this point in time).

You could have asked them where in the United States Constitution that it allows the federal government to legislate on the things that they want.

Typical responses are:

1.) Where in the Constitution does it say they can't do this

AND

2.) The Constitution was written over 200 years ago and is outdated for our times.

Now if you can get your g-parents to give you these lines than YOU will be the one that will OWN them.

For number 1, remember that the federal governments duties and responsibilities are ENUMERATED. If it's not explicitly authorized in the Constitution (Article 1 Section 8 namely for Congress) than you refer to Amendments 9 and 10.

For number 2, you than get them to admit that they don't support the Constitution. Pick a few issues you know they disagree with and tell them how these would have been prevented by following the Constitution. If they're progressives than Iraq and the Patriot ACT, war on drugs, is clearly the case. If they're neocons than we obviously have welfare, the New Deal, etc.

Abortion is a matter of defining life, and a question of murder laws. The states currently write their own murder laws so this should also be the case for abortion. Remind them what RP says that an individual life exists upon conception, and that the only legitimate function of government in general is to protect the liberty of the individual. This newly conceived life has the rights to life, liberty, and property and these rights should not be taken away by aggression. (you can even argue property rights inside the womb but I'd avoid this one unless you can have some solid arguments, most people don't see property rights as the basic protection of liberty anyways).

The Israel thing is too easy. If they don't support the Constitution, use the legalized theft argument. Government has no right to confiscate the fruits of anyone's labor to redistribute this wealth and subsidize any foreign nation.

Good luck.

[SwordOfShannarah]

Actually, they sent lots of money for 9-11 and Katrina. But that's because they're our friends, not because they were morally obligated.

Hmmm- I heard news reports that the U.S. rejected foreign aid for Katrina (because we had it all under control of course).. imagine that.

[ThePieSwindler]

Honestly i think the best way to go about it is to give them fair warning when he is on TV don't try to lay out all the issues for them. Nobody is likely to agree with everything he stands for he is a pretty radical guy to most older people. I didn't really tell my mom or grandma anything about them. I told them he'd be on ABC on sunday they both tuned in and our now fans and also supporting me financially to do grassroots actvities. My grandma sent me a letter as well as a check saying he makes alot of sense we need more like him.

Also now i got my mom calling me all the time telling me when she say him on cspan in freedom fest my grandma tuned in too and that was the first time they were ever introduced to the idea of the north american union.

Funny that its considered radical to our elders to defend the constitution and have limited government, and to have someone who really speaks in depth about the issues in a detailed, knowledgable manner. Just goes to show how the culture of passively accepting big government has been ingrained into our parents and grandparents and has pervaded society since the New Deal. "Radical" is frivilous term, anyhow.

Anyways, misesian nailed the respones to those two points, so use what he has to say. Yeah, and those two responses to the constitution is exactly what i am talking about - people really do not understand the foundation for this nation, or the concept of how the constitution limits government, and how limited government works. Again, it all goes back to the culture of big government acceptance that spawned out of the New Deal. Its funny how I, an 18 year old whippersnapper, know more about history and the foundations of this nation than my parents, grandparents, aunt, uncles, and teachers!

[Misesian]

c'mon guys,

Lay off the guy. How do we expect to convert and attract NEW RP supporters/lovers of liberty if we question and rib these people for sharing their experience.

We can't forget, that MOST people cannot defend these arguments.

[LastoftheMohicans]

Much like my father, they said he was nut that:

1. Is against a woman's right to choose. (which I believe in)
2. Is against giving aid to Israel.

I couldn't defend myself or Ron.

I don't know your parent's political leanings but I would have said the following.

The Constitution does not give the Fed.Gov the power to "give" money to foreign countries. If they think Israel is a good cause, Ron Paul feels that they should be free to give their money there. Assuming they're liberals, ask them if they support the separation of Church and State. If they say yes, then ask them how they can justify tax dollars going to an Theocracy.

Ron Paul doesn't believe a woman has the right to kill her unborn child, but as President there isn't anything he would or should do about it. However, he does support a woman's right to choose whether or not she want's to own a gun, or how she should spend her money (no income tax), what drugs, if any, she should put into her body, etc.

Anyone who is pro-choice on abortion based on the idea that it's a woman's body is a hypocrite if they don't extend the concept of self-ownership to all issues.

P.S. I don't recommend calling your parents hypocrites.

[BuddyRey]

I disagree with Ron on a myriad of subjects, but I can rest assured that he's the only President I could disagree with and not be sent to Gitmo because of it! :D

[Tommy Jefferson]

Why don't you tell your father when does Israel's right to defend itself involve us?

Some people believe that the USA is obligated to protect Israel because they are God's super-duper special favorite chosen people like it says in the bible and on teevee.

You'll have as much success convincing such people otherwise as you would convincing Osama Bin Laden to become a Mormon. The ignorance of their fundamentalism precludes any rational decision on the matter.

Best to leave that issue alone if at all possible.

[LastoftheMohicans]

Funny that its considered radical to our elders to defend the constitution and have limited government, and to have someone who really speaks in depth about the issues in a detailed, knowledgable manner. Just goes to show how the culture of passively accepting big government has been ingrained into our parents and grandparents and has pervaded society since the New Deal. "Radical" is frivilous term, anyhow.

Some of my family members think I'm a Nazi or something because I want to reduce the size of government. Talk about turning things on their head.

[tiznow]

Funny that its considered radical to our elders to defend the constitution and have limited government, and to have someone who really speaks in depth about the issues in a detailed, knowledgable manner. Just goes to show how the culture of passively accepting big government has been ingrained into our parents and grandparents and has pervaded society since the New Deal. "Radical" is frivilous term, anyhow.

I am in no way suggesting he is radical, but to most people that are used to the status quo for so long he is. The complacancy is so thick as you explained. Thus is why i think laying out all of what he stands for might be a bit too much for them to digest especially in one sitting. Just point them to his speeches, or make them a dvd and have them watch it. Let him do the talking for himself that's the easiest and most effective way to convince the older generation.

Just saying grand things like no more IRS, no more big government, without any thorough explaination of how this can be done within our current system will not be very effective strategy to sway most people, and ron paul can explain all that much better than I can and i would guess most of you can.

[ksuguy]

I agree with Ron, we shouldn't have foreign aid for any nations, Israel included.

Not that I have anything against Israel, it's a fine country. However, I think they are perfectly capable of handling their own business. They have the strongest military in the region, and they also have enough nuclear weapons to utterly destroy any of the countries around them. Israel doesn't need our help any more.

[ButchHowdy]

Why should we send money to a UN chartered community that stole the birthright name 'Israel' from it's owner Joseph (1 Chron 5:2) and whom God DIVORCED anyway because she was WHORING around like her sister Judah (Jeremiah 3:8)

If you give them these bible verses however, be prepared for the 'context' argument!!

[Bryan]

Issue: Foreign Policy: Israel
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=4730

[Roxi]

c'mon guys,

Lay off the guy. How do we expect to convert and attract NEW RP supporters/lovers of liberty if we question and rib these people for sharing their experience.

We can't forget, that MOST people cannot defend these arguments.


i concur..... not only that but young people, JUST recently paying attention to politics because of RP would have a very hard time defending these issues, especially if one is pro-choice or unaware of our biased foriegn policy

[Bradley in DC]

1) much discussed here
2) Paul is opposed to ALL foreign aid (It's not an anti-Israel thing). Cutting off foreign aid makes countries more responsive to their own people. All over the world, we're funding the worst governments. We were giving money to the Taliban in Afghanistan (part of our drug war) before 9/11. We prop up the world's worst dictators oppressing poor people.

In Israel's case, knowing we wouldn't be propping them up any longer would likely result in some specific changes: one, less domestic socialism; two, more responsive/receptive to accomodating displaced Arabs; three, better relations with the US (no more AIPAC spy scandals, USS Liberty denials, etc.).

[Lord Xar]

I think the way to go is to NOT try to change them, but to ask them why certain things are bad... (that ron paul stands for)... ask "do you believe in the constitution?" and move that angle. Sometimes I find that the best way to win someone over is to NOT try to change their opinions but by leading them a different way....

Most people have no idea that their rights are escaping them.. most don't even know that there is a gloablization going on.. the NAU, SPP.... illegal immigration is all part of the plan.. you have to talk like "Its me that is normal".. and come at it from that direction..

[DjLoTi]

I just wanna thank you for talking to your grandparents and getting involved in your circle. I'm not sure if anybody's thanking you.. well I am.

[tiznow]

For your average american he's not someone you can just bombard people with and lay out all his stances without putting things into perspective, personally I don't like the slim jims for this reason cause it just says no this, no that, without any perspective and how these things can be accomplished, i like the tri-folds HQ came up with much much better. Slowly letting them get to know him i believe is the best tactic as over time they will come to the conclusion that he makes alot of sense.

[aravoth]

Ask him how many US soldiers have to die in support of a country founded by a UN mandate.

[Dustancostine]

I suggest you explain that even though he's against pro choice, he also acknowledges that it's not the Presidents right (or Fed Govt) to decide for the nation. Each state should decide.

How long have you been a RP supporter??

Actually I am reading his book on abortion and RP believes that the fetus has rights like any other person. As regards to his comments about states taking action on abortion, he is concerned more about violence laws being enforced (murder is not a federal crime but a state crime) on a state level, rather than states deciding whether or not abortion is legal.

[ronpaulhawaii]

Some people believe that the USA is obligated to protect Israel because they are God's super-duper special favorite chosen people like it says in the bible and on teevee.

You'll have as much success convincing such people otherwise as you would convincing Osama Bin Laden to become a Mormon. The ignorance of their fundamentalism precludes any rational decision on the matter.

Best to leave that issue alone if at all possible.

I disagree, and suggest that arrogance will win nothing of value...


I just wanna thank you for talking to your grandparents and getting involved in your circle. I'm not sure if anybody's thanking you.. well I am.

I agree, (even if it was just a troll:eek: , sparked some succinct comments:D

[DeadheadForPaul]

Starks, I think you should check out the Ron Paul Library online and read about the reasoning behind those positions. Paul's stance on those issues is easy to defend from a constitutional perspective as well as a moral, economic, and logical one

[DeadheadForPaul]

I agree, (even if it was just a troll:eek: , sparked some succinct comments:D

Who's the troll?

[Brandybuck]

Israel is a grown up nation. Time to cut the apron strings, kick them out of the house, and make them fend for themselves.

[Roxi]

Who's the troll?

i am :D

[Jarrod]

Are you seriously calling someone pathetic for coming to these forums asking for help?

I can remember a time not so long ago when I didn't know the answer to the basic questions either.

I thought forums were for asking questions?

am I missing something here?


You can't defend yourself or Ron? Thats pretty pathetic, considering those reasons are easily countered... (which have already been mentioned so i won't rehash them).

[Capitalism]

If they're neocons than we obviously have welfare, the New Deal, etc.



Be careful, many neocons have no problem with the welfare state. Neo-conservatism started out on the political left and then shifted to the right later on. Some still hold to the old ideals.
just sayin'

[ThePieSwindler]

Are you seriously calling someone pathetic for coming to these forums asking for help?

I can remember a time not so long ago when I didn't know the answer to the basic questions either.

I thought forums were for asking questions?

am I missing something here?

Yes i am, because Starks has been borderline trolling. Yes the forums are for asking questions but if you look at stark's post history, you begin to question his authenticity. Then again, maybe i am completely wrong and he is just genuinely curious about everything ever and always feels like he has to start a thread about it. Notice the thread title, he says he was OWNED. Yet these reasons are easily countered, have been talked about ad nauseum on this site (there have been 2 abortion related threads near the top of the front page all day... yet starks had to start this one). I get the feeling he just likes starting threads for no reason. Maybe i'm being too harsh, though. So sue me.

[Jarrod]

Yes i am, because Starks has been borderline trolling. Yes the forums are for asking questions but if you look at stark's post history, you begin to question his authenticity. Then again, maybe i am completely wrong and he is just genuinely curious about everything ever and always feels like he has to start a thread about it. Notice the thread title, he says he was OWNED. Yet these reasons are easily countered, have been talked about ad nauseum on this site (there have been 2 abortion related threads near the top of the front page all day... yet starks had to start this one). I get the feeling he just likes starting threads for no reason. Maybe i'm being too harsh, though. So sue me.


Hmm, ya that's a little suspect.

Starks, you better cut back on the posts for a bit and spend a little time doing some heavy reading. I wouldn't try convincing anyone of anything until you have educated yourself. Until then you can just drop subtle Ron Paul hints here and there and show people how much interest you are taking in him. When they see you reading and educating yourself about him, they will naturally get curious.

[nayjevin]

The ignorance of their fundamentalism precludes any rational decision on the matter.

no question that this is true with many people. a belief that israel is connected to god is the big reason that we have justified enormous monetary and military support for a country that's the size of what, new jersey?

how would you feel on this issue as an african?

i think some don't realize that the U.S. gives more aid to Israel than any other country. Why?

[TheConstitutionLives]

Much like my father, they said he was nut that:

1. Is against a woman's right to choose. (which I believe in)
2. Is against giving aid to Israel.

I couldn't defend myself or Ron.


How bout "Israel is a big boy and can take care of himself now that we've sent hundreds of billions of dollars of our tax money over there to fund their operations" ?

[Korey Kaczynski]

I thought lefties were against aid to Israel because of all the humanity abuses.

But they've suffered so much!!!

[ronpaulhawaii]

Who's the troll?

Well, I meant that in the very best sense of the word ;) Kinda like the fisherman thing; not, necessarily, the under the bridge variety...

My first post was kind of a troll, testing the waters...

I really don't recall who started this...


i am :D

<chuckle>


Yes i am, because Starks has been borderline trolling. Yes the forums are for asking questions but if you look at stark's post history, you begin to question his authenticity. Then again, maybe i am completely wrong and he is just genuinely curious about everything ever and always feels like he has to start a thread about it. Notice the thread title, he says he was OWNED. Yet these reasons are easily countered, have been talked about ad nauseum on this site (there have been 2 abortion related threads near the top of the front page all day... yet starks had to start this one). I get the feeling he just likes starting threads for no reason. Maybe i'm being too harsh, though. So sue me.

Anything that gets people to clarify issues is good in my book...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<Quote: Tommy Jefferson>
The ignorance of their fundamentalism precludes any rational decision on the matter. </Q>

no question that this is true with many people. a belief that israel is connected to god is the big reason that we have justified enormous monetary and military support for a country that's the size of what, new jersey?

how would you feel on this issue as an african?

i think some don't realize that the U.S. gives more aid to Israel than any other country. Why?


IMHO...

This issue, like 911, is a hot button that falls outside of the basic parameters of our effort. Dr. Paul does not differentiate between any culture in his platform.

[beermotor]

Much like my father, they said he was nut that:

1. Is against a woman's right to choose. (which I believe in)
2. Is against giving aid to Israel.

I couldn't defend myself or Ron.


There's nothing wrong with a woman's right to choose to terminate her pregnancy. The problem is with the Federal articulation of that right. It is a bad series of Court decisions, and promotes federal tyranny over the states. REmember, it is much easier to change a state law than a Federal one. What if your precious Roe is overturned (a very real possibility given one more neocon hack on the court)? Then where will you be? If you truly believe in FREEDOM and CHOICE, then you MUST believe in DECENTRALIZATION. Period. That's all there is to it. The end, you win and your mom must convert.

As for Israel, why is funneling American Tax Dollars (or whatever you want to call it, just printed dollars) to a foreign country not considered nuts? Shouldn't we be prioritizing and fixing our own problems here at home first? Why does a sovereign nation need monetary "assistance"? If they can't take care of themselves (I submit to you that the most certainly can), why should they even exist as a sovereign nation?