An observation from an Australian looking from the outside in

[Joe3113]

Ron Paul supporters are the most intelligent people I have had the pleasure of communicating with.

'Why do I say this?' you ask. It's because you see through the LEFT-RIGHT paradigm. You see through Obama's facade of advocating 'change' and you see through Giuliani's facade of being 'tough' on terrorism. You see that labels like 'right-wing' and 'left-wing' are designed to distract, divide and conquer. You see the true objectives of the Council on Foreign Relations. You see through NAFTA and SPP to the plans for the North American Union. You see the propaganda of the mainstream media. You see the Federal Reserve's manipulation of the money supply. You don't accept something just because it is popular or mainstream. You don't fear being labelled 'fringe' or 'conspiracy theorists'.

In short, you do your research. You don't accept the status quo. You are not ignorant. You are not slaves of the establishment. And you are loyal to your country and to your fellow man. You are freely thinking human beings. Above all, you are kind-hearted and caring.

It's an honor to to be part of these forums.

Whatever happens in the course of 2008, don't ever give up this fight. Don't ever compromise. Don't ever be discouraged. Fight until your last ounce of strength has left you, and then fight some more. Remain together for as long as it takes. Draw your strength from each other. Motivate each other. If one person is down the others should pick them up. What you are participating in is not just a campaign for President of the United States, it is the defining conflict. The ultimate fight against tyranny in this world. And I am with you all the way.


NEVER GIVE UP.

[noztnac]

Thanks. We appreciate it.

[Oliver]

Well, I agree with most parts of your post - but how do
you convince people who didn't do their research and
the facts regarding a corrupt system?

[Joe3113]

Well, I agree with most parts of your post - but how do
you convince people who didn't do their research and
the facts regarding a corrupt system?

You work until you find a way.

[Troyhand]

Ron Paul supporters are the most intelligent people I have had the pleasure of communicating with.

'Why do I say this?' you ask...

I'm sorry. I was picking my nose. Did you say something?

:D j/k Thanks for the wonderful sentiment

[thuja]

thank you. this is very nice of you to say, and it makes us seem beautiful, it makes us seem like the people who should be in charge of educating the rest of the people who have been caught up in the whole brainwashing. it makes us seem as if some of us should run for office later on. and mainly, your message gives us strength , now, when we need a bit of fluffing up and cheering on.

[Oliver]

You work until you find a way.

Well, the best arguments for those who're pissed
off by the government is to reduce it.

For those in need, Ron doesn't really provide the
answer they're hoping for.

And those who're uninterested in politics, might
be impressed by a new approach back to the
constitution as well. You just have to believe in
the goal and people will get excited about the
opportunity as well...

[disciple]

Well, I agree with most parts of your post - but how do
you convince people who didn't do their research and
the facts regarding a corrupt system?

You can't:

"And verily I say unto you, that whoso hath the light of his eyes clear seeth everything clear, and draweth light even out of darkness itself; but the blind doeth not so."

Jesus of Nazareth


It will be a long hard fight but the rewards are great.

[Oliver]

You can't:

"And verily I say unto you, that whoso hath the light of his eyes clear seeth everything clear, and draweth light even out of darkness itself; but the blind doeth not so."

Jesus of Nazareth

It will be a long hard fight but the rewards are great.

I don't think that it's that hard - and I don't think the Bible is a wise book
concerning canvassing anyway. :D So It's just a matter of how you present
the product called freedom and prosperity... :)

[allyinoh]

People just need to get off the computer and get out. I am guilty of it myself, especially since it's winter and soooo cold here in Ohio, but we need to get out more into the real world.

[Mortikhi]

Is Australia a shitty country to live in?

I won't be sticking around after this presidential election. If I do stay, I will be too tempted to take this revolution to the next level and I fear there are not enough who think like me to amount to anything other than 'crazed gunman takes out tv satellite receivers and shuts down tv service to 1/2 of state'.

[fj45lvr]

For those in need, Ron doesn't really provide the
answer they're hoping for.




So It's just a matter of how you present
the product called freedom and prosperity... :)

I think besides FEAR this is a huge problem for many in America (as tucker Carlson goaded Bill Maher and Company about) "personal responsibility".

The America of the past was so much better when that was a central tenet in our society without the "WELFARISM" of the "welfare state" sprouting up and changing everything......instead of gratitude for help folks actually believe they are DUE entitlements!!! The beacon on the hill of lending a helping hand is NOW forced THEFT by the power of the GUN held in the hand of the STATE.

When we started down this path it has done NOTHING but suck the life-blood out of a huge segment of the country.

[Joe3113]

Is Australia a shitty country to live in?

I won't be sticking around after this presidential election. If I do stay, I will be too tempted to take this revolution to the next level and I fear there are not enough who think like me to amount to anything other than 'crazed gunman takes out tv satellite receivers and shuts down tv service to 1/2 of state'.

Australia is the best country in the world.

[Joe3113]

I think besides FEAR this is a huge problem for many in America (as tucker Carlson goaded Bill Maher and Company about) "personal responsibility".

The America of the past was so much better when that was a central tenet in our society without the "WELFARISM" of the "welfare state" sprouting up and changing everything......instead of gratitude for help folks actually believe they are DUE entitlements!!! The beacon on the hill of lending a helping hand is NOW forced THEFT by the power of the GUN held in the hand of the STATE.

When we started down this path it has done NOTHING but suck the life-blood out of a huge segment of the country.

Great post.

[Oliver]

I think besides FEAR this is a huge problem for many in America (as tucker Carlson goaded Bill Maher and Company about) "personal responsibility".

The America of the past was so much better when that was a central tenet in our society without the "WELFARISM" of the "welfare state" sprouting up and changing everything......instead of gratitude for help folks actually believe they are DUE entitlements!!! The beacon on the hill of lending a helping hand is NOW forced THEFT by the power of the GUN held in the hand of the STATE.

When we started down this path it has done NOTHING but suck the life-blood out of a huge segment of the country.


Well, personally I live in a welfare state with universal health-care
and unemployment-support. And I can assure you that this isn't a
bad thing once you need it.

But I also agree with Ron that America cannot afford that playing
the worlds (discredited LAPD) police... So "cut spending" sounds
pretty plausible to me - and I wonder how ANYONE can ignore those
facts or support "Taxabee". America is a strange country... :p

Plus: The US-Constitution doesn't grant these rights in contrast to
the constitutions in other countries...

[jordie]

What you are participating in is not just a campaign for President of the United States, it is the defining conflict. The ultimate fight against tyranny in this world. And I am with you all the way.


NEVER GIVE UP.

As another Australian, I'd like to second this. I spend a great deal of time watching the Ron Paul campaign, and I tell everyone I know about him. Its a fun ride but at times can be frustrating as a non-American there isn't much I can do to support this revolution. I am continually amazed by the campaign, the grass-roots efforts and the amazing things you guys do. Its really fun to see him rise from nothing and I know he will win with all your continual support. Keep it up.:cool:

[fj45lvr]

Well, personally I live in a welfare state with universal health-care
and unemployment-support. And I can assure you that this isn't a
bad thing once you need it.


Well I agree but those things don't have to come from the GOVERNMENT (by way of THEFT from others).

health care requires INSURANCE (which requires personal responsibility) or CHARITY (which is what we had prior to state WELFARISM).

and unemployment support was also apart of CHARITY (or stronger FAMILY ties) which in my opinion benefited the community as a whole because it actually made people and churches or other societies a "beacon on the hill" (and these beacons didn't support FREE LOADERS subsidizing their drug habits etc.). The STATE can't do this stuff as cheap or efficiently (and i can attest to that having attended private parochial schools where the teachers were there largely as a "service" (getting paid less and the expenses per student were a FRACTION of the government schools).

But more importantly LIBERTY doesn't condone letting the GOV. steal your earnings to pay for someone else because that is IMMORAL.

[Oliver]

Well I agree but those things don't have to come from the GOVERNMENT (by way of THEFT from others).

health care requires INSURANCE (which requires personal responsibility) or CHARITY (which is what we had prior to state WELFARISM).

and unemployment support was also apart of CHARITY which in my opinion benefited the community as a whole because it actually made people and churches or other societies a "beacon on the hill" (and these beacons didn't support FREE LOADERS subsidizing their drug habits etc.). The STATE can't do this stuff as cheap or efficiently (and i can attest to that having attended private parochial schools where the teachers were there largely as a "service" (getting paid less and the expenses per student were a FRACTION of the government schools).

But more importantly LIBERTY doesn't condone letting the GOV. steal your earnings to pay for someone else because that is IMMORAL.

Well, it's a matter of how you personally think about it. Over here
in Germany no one thinks it's theft - even if many think that those
social services are misused and pretty expensive. And I support this
view since all signs confirm that assumption.

But the US constitution isn't really comparable to the one we have
over here - thanks to all the differences and the completely different
parliamentary system with 6 or more major parties.

So Ron makes sense in terms of the US-Constitution and the financial
aspect -aka- "Can't afford it anymore".

[fj45lvr]

Well, it's a matter of how you personally think about it. Over here
in Germany no one thinks it's theft - even if many think that those
social services are misused and pretty expensive. And I support this
view since all signs confirm that assumption.
".

thats strange.... but I know nothing of your system there with the Gov. and the financial condition of the average citizen and the "reunion" of the seperated germany and all that.

You can read about this from Paul's own book online that has a chapter about it, I think it was from FREEDOM UNDER SEIGE if you search for it.

I do agree that people need to purchase "insurance" to fall back on for HUGE PROBLEMS that can befall you....and the principle of insurance really makes alot of sense in this regard (as well as taking care of yourself) and this is so simple and requires NO BIG GOV. to "drain" away the resources.

[ST0PandL00K]

Australia is the best country in the world.

yah we pwn. And i agree that it is hard to watch a campaign that i KNOW the sucess of which is going to significantly impact my life and the lives of every person on this earth and not be able to just go crazy for him :(

If i can add my own Australian perspective, i just want to say please never forget just how important this campaign is. Not just for America but for the World. We may have been waiting for this opportunity for the last hundred years to have this real shot at change.

Whatever you need to do, for my sake and for millions others, please just put in your absolute all. After Hilary wins you will have wished that you canvassed until you fell down in the snow. So do it :P

[Oliver]

thats strange.... but I know nothing of your system there with the Gov. and the financial condition of the average citizen and the "reunion" of the seperated germany and all that.

You can read about this from Paul's own book online that has a chapter about it, I think it was from FREEDOM UNDER SEIGE if you search for it.

I do agree that people need to purchase "insurance" to fall back on for HUGE PROBLEMS that can befall you....and the principle of insurance really makes alot of sense in this regard (as well as taking care of yourself) and this is so simple and requires NO BIG GOV. to "drain" away the resources.

Personally I think that the "insurance" called Family would be a good
alternative to todays insurances. Unfortunately, the Family value isn't
that important anymore and so insurances replaced this important
social aspect. That's another thing the Forefathers couldn't have imagined
back then. (But they're important today, unfortunatley)

I also don't own Ron's Book, so I have to imagine his sentences about
Europe. From what I can tell, the social welfare state is fair in the public
opinion - not a theft. And it's constitutional over here since we have a
different and more modern constitution, thanks to Americas efforts after
WW2.

But let me assure you that the Welfare state is a pretty expensive thing
since the reunion. So we're struggling with it right now - and my honest
assumption is that America cannot afford it either. So Ron makes perfect
sense to me. :)

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Is Australia a shitty country to live in?

I won't be sticking around after this presidential election. If I do stay, I will be too tempted to take this revolution to the next level and I fear there are not enough who think like me to amount to anything other than 'crazed gunman takes out tv satellite receivers and shuts down tv service to 1/2 of state'.

'They Live'

[Joe3113]

'They Live'

huh?

[fj45lvr]

I also don't own Ron's Book, so I have to imagine his sentences about
Europe. From what I can tell, the social welfare state is fair in the public
opinion - not a theft. And it's constitutional over here since we have a
different and more modern constitution, thanks to Americas efforts after
WW2. :)

here's the book for you:

http://www.mises.org/books/freedomsiege.pdf

[Mortikhi]

'They Live'
I was thinking the same thing :D

[Oliver]

here's the book for you:

http://www.mises.org/books/freedomsiege.pdf

Can you sum up Ron's stance about European Welfare policies - or
point out the side in question? (Downloading it right now...)

[gang]

Well, personally I live in a welfare state with universal health-care
and unemployment-support. And I can assure you that this isn't a
bad thing once you need it.


I disagree.

The German health care system is terrible.
You wait more than nine months for an appointment with an ophthalmologists.
As a patient you have no incentive so save money when you once visited a doctor per quarter. At the end of the year, you don't get the medicine you need, because your doctor probably already ran out of his "budget".
I don't call this a good system.

And the German welfare is bankrupt.
Germany does not only have the official liabilities - approx. 65% of her GDP.
Including future financial obligations, Germany's debt exceeds 300% of her GDP.

[fj45lvr]

Can you sum up Ron's stance about European Welfare policies - or
point out the side in question? (Downloading it right now...)

no I can't but I don't think that Paul thinks about things in terms of "REGIONS"....if he does I guess I would be surprised because I would tend to believe that he, like the founders, believed in UNIVERSAL principles that would set an example worldwide as to FREEDOM and SELF-DETERMINATION and especially ECONOMICS.

[Oliver]

I disagree.

The German health care system is terrible.
You wait more than nine months for an appointment with an ophthalmologists.
As a patient you have no incentive so save money when you once visited a doctor per quarter. At the end of the year, you don't get the medicine you need, because your doctor probably already ran out of his "budget".
I don't call this a good system.

And the German welfare is bankrupt.
Germany does not only have the official liabilities - approx. 65% of her GDP.
Including future financial obligations, Germany's debt exceeds 300% of her GDP.

Well, that's what I confirmed - since the reunion, the costs of the
social welfare state are exceeding the Governments GDP by far.

But that doesn't mean that social welfare isn't a bad thing for those
who really are in need - nor does it disprove the fact that most people
agree that helping those in need via the social system is unfair or even
some kind of "theft". That's not the case.

[Oliver]

no I can't but I don't think that Paul thinks about things in terms of "REGIONS"....if he does I guess I would be surprised because I would tend to believe that he, like the founders, believed in UNIVERSAL principles that would set an example worldwide as to FREEDOM and SELF-DETERMINATION and especially ECONOMICS.

And I agree with you. Ron interprets the constitution the right
way - written in a time without Television, Telephone, Internet,
social security, Airplanes, Health care Insurances and so on...

But you may consider that there are people who think that the
constitution is outdated because of the modern circumstances.

Now while I agree with Ron about the Forefathers intentions,
the "modern" people try to interpret the constitution the way
the Forefathers had in mind if they knew about todays problems
and todays environment.

So to me, it's no surprise that there is a huge opposition against
the original intention of the constitution - and the interpretation
of what the forefathers would've said about todays world.

Basically it's a fight between the old and the new world.

[BlutStein]

Thanks mate, good post.

[gang]

Well, that's what I confirmed - since the reunion, the costs of the
social welfare state are exceeding the Governments GDP by far.

But that doesn't mean that social welfare isn't a bad thing for those
who really are in need - nor does it disprove the fact that most people
agree that helping those in need via the social system is unfair or even
some kind of "theft". That's not the case.

The current situation has nothing to do with the reunification.
The German welfare insurances works as a pay-as-you-go system.
It even benefited from reunification regarding the absolute figures of payers and recipients (including the East-Germans migrated to West-Germany).

And it does not even help those, who seem to benefit.
Best example is the minimum wage discussion. An employee with an DMRP below minimum wage is ultimately forced to be jobless. I don't call this "not a bad thing".

I agree that most Germans - especially in western states - don't evaluate the social system as unfair or theft. But that's just the logical consequence of decades of socialist brainwashing in schools and mass media.

[Oliver]

The current situation has nothing to do with the reunification.
The German welfare insurances works as a pay-as-you-go system.
It even benefited from reunification regarding the absolute figures of payers and recipients (including the East-Germans migrated to West-Germany).

And it does not even help those, who seem to benefit.
Best example is the minimum wage discussion. An employee with an DMRP below minimum wage is ultimately forced to be jobless. I don't call this "not a bad thing".

I agree that most Germans - especially in western states - don't evaluate the social system as unfair or theft. But that's just the logical consequence of decades of socialist brainwashing in schools and mass media.

Explain that to me: The German Arbeitslosenversicherung grants you support
if you're unemployed. In America, you have to get around on your own - without
much help of the government. So I have no doubts that the social net in Germany
is much more tight than in the US - where millions don't even get a universal
healthcare.

But as I said - different constitution and different attitudes in both countries.
Germany is more social in general. That's a mind-set and constitutional issue.

So why doesn't universal healthcare and social support doesn't help those
who need it?

Added: And yes, it has to do with the reunification since this part of history
also meant a huge financial hole.

[gang]

Explain that to me: The German Arbeitslosenversicherung grants you support
if you're unemployed.

And because of that we have "Langzeitarbeitslosigkeit" - long-term unemployment - in Germany. As a structural problem it's almost unknown in America.
It's an easy econonic approach - the more you subsidize, the more you get of what you subsidized.
It takes us growth rates of more than 2% to create jobs. In America it's much less.


So I have no doubts that the social net in Germany
is much more tight than in the US - where millions don't even get a universal
healthcare.

Sure. And having the chance to opt out of social security is a good thing. In Germany you are forced to participate, you are forced to spend money in a way aou don't want.


But as I said - different constitution and different attitudes in both countries.
Germany is more social in general. That's a mind-set and constitutional issue.

The law of economics apply to all human conduct. Röpke an Erhard knew this. They were influenced by Austrian Economics. The social-democratic approach is just wrong.


So why doesn't universal healthcare and social support doesn't help those who need it?

Added: And yes, it has to do with the reunification since this part of history
also meant a huge financial hole.

Because it firstly takes the money away from alternatives, that the people might have preferred. Universal healtcare leads to bad healtcare, because without competition there are no more stimulations for being better. Without a doctors' payment based on money, doctors' performances can't even compared anymore. That's exactly why the Soviet Union collapsed.

And what "hole" are you talking about? What happend after 1990 was the biggest Keynesian program in mankind's history. It was doomed to fail and only benefited large scale companies. It was pure lobbyism under the guise of "social justice".