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oldpaths1611
07-15-2007, 07:18 AM
Although many of our soldiers are not like the ones covered in this story, many are. This is just one story of many like it. How anyone could think that the US can do these sorts of things and not expect blowback is beyond me. Nonintervention is the only sane and sensible policy. While my heart breaks for the 1000's of innocents being killed in Iraq, I also realize that this kind of thing has been going on since the dawn of man. There really is nothing new under the sun. The most frightening part is that, if the powers that be have their way, these kinds of things will be coming to our own country and neighborhoods.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070715/ap_on_re_us/marines_iraq_shooting


"Today, America would be outraged if UN troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there was an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all people of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the world government." Henry Kissinger

Razmear
07-15-2007, 08:02 AM
Lopezromo said a procedure called "dead-checking" was routine. If Marines entered a house where a man was wounded, instead of checking to see whether he needed medical aid, they shot him to make sure he was dead, he testified.

This is against the Geneva Convention and totally immoral!
When I went thru Infantry Basic Training, we were showed films of troops in the battlefields from hundreds of years ago shooting wounded enemy soldiers and instructed just how immoral and illegal that is, and that following an illegal order is a crime in itself.
Has the US military gone so far downhill since the 80's or are they showing different training films now?

WTF, that just makes my blood boil.

LibertyEagle
07-15-2007, 08:17 AM
I hate to ask this, but whenever I see the word, "insurgent", in an article about the war, it always makes me wonder if some of these are just Iraqi citizens fighting for their country, just like some Americans would do if our own country was occupied by a foreign army.

LibertyBelle
07-15-2007, 09:28 AM
I hate to ask this, but whenever I see the word, "insurgent", in an article about the war, it always makes me wonder if some of these are just Iraqi citizens fighting for their country, just like some Americans would do if our own country was occupied by a foreign army.

Of course plenty of them are Iraqi citizens. They call everyone insurgents, propaganda. As for the true insurgents, are they helping fight the foreign enemy because they are sick and tired of it all? Blowback? Me thinks yes. There supposedly has been a joining of the Sunnis and Shiites in places to combat the 'enemy'. Maybe they realized a house divided cannot stand. Christians and Muslims in Lebanon joined together with the Israeli attack and helped each other out. It's sad what it takes to get people to realize what we have in common, humanity.

constituent
07-15-2007, 10:23 AM
ok... something to ponder....

if following an illegal order is illegal, if fighting in an undeclared war violates the constitution that a soldier is sworn to protect and defend...

aren't all of the soldiers choosing to fight criminals? if they are there illegally to begin with, what seperates them from "enemy combatants?" Can one soldier justify killing an Iraqi if it is violation of both U.S. and International Law for them to be their in the first place... and if they had to violate their oath to be there in the first place?

so does service in Iraq make one a hero, a murderer, an unwitting fascist stooge? I don't know the answer to this, but the implications are f'ed. And all of those owning stock or employed by big defense corps., are they not accessories to these many murders? maybe not at first, but to continue perpetuating it, do they share none of the responsibility?

Razmear
07-15-2007, 01:16 PM
"if fighting in an undeclared war violates the constitution "

That would be a bit of a stretch, and I would not fault any soldier who is over in Iraq and doing his duty with honor.
However, if this policy of "Dead Checking" is going on, anyone involved in issuing or following those orders is a war criminal and should be treated as such.

SeanEdwards
07-15-2007, 01:35 PM
How anyone could think that the US can do these sorts of things and not expect blowback is beyond me.

How anyone could think you could launch a war without actually killing and brutalizing people is what I don't understand. Send a bunch of guys into a foreign land filled with enemies that want to kill them, and then try to hold them to some 'Law and Order' level of fictional justice is what I don't understand. It's always lawyers sitting safely in an office thousands of miles from conflict who say stuff like, "It's totally unacceptable for soldiers to force civilians to open doors for them as a defense against boobytraps." Meanwhile, the soldier on the ground is saying to himself, "Fuck these people. Let them open the boobytrapped doors and get blown up. I ain't doing it." It's real easy for the smug lawyer sitting in comfort and safety to pass judgement on these guys that are looking death in the face, but I have to wonder if these lawyers would still hold their morality above their own lives when it came time for them to pay the reaper.

torchbearer
07-15-2007, 01:40 PM
I don't know if you guys remember, but we had some soldiers killed by enemy soldiers feigning death, only to shoot our guys in the back as they were leaving... I understand 'dead checking'... If my life depended on it, i'd do it too. Don't blame the soldiers for wanting to survive, blame the politicians who put them in a position to have to do that kind of thing to begin with.... remember, most of fellow americans that come back from over there will suffer from some kind of post traumatic psych probs. More reasons why this war is so very wrong.

SeanEdwards
07-15-2007, 01:42 PM
This is against the Geneva Convention and totally immoral!
When I went thru Infantry Basic Training, we were showed films of troops in the battlefields from hundreds of years ago shooting wounded enemy soldiers and instructed just how immoral and illegal that is, and that following an illegal order is a crime in itself.
Has the US military gone so far downhill since the 80's or are they showing different training films now?

WTF, that just makes my blood boil.

This is the reality of modern war. Suicidal enemies who are willing to die have changed the rules. If I was in those soldier's shoes, I'd be doing exactly the same thing. Why take a chance that some raghead is just waiting with a grenade in his hand for some dumbass teenage soldier to approach to give first aid? Also, there is the fact that no Americans are being captured and treated as POW's. No, captured Americans get slowly tortured to death and turned into snuff film movie stars for the delectation of the raghead masses. So kill 'em all, and let god sort 'em out.

SeanEdwards
07-15-2007, 01:48 PM
I don't know if you guys remember, but we had some soldiers killed by enemy soldiers feigning death, only to shoot our guys in the back as they were leaving... I understand 'dead checking'... If my life depended on it, i'd do it too. Don't blame the soldiers for wanting to survive, blame the politicians who put them in a position to have to do that kind of thing to begin with.... remember, most of fellow americans that come back from over there will suffer from some kind of post traumatic psych probs. More reasons why this war is so very wrong.

The nebulous 'enemy' have even resorted to staging fake surrenders, with white flags and everything, before attacking the people trying to take them into custody. They also routinely turn ambulances, hospitals, mosques, schools, and any other 'protected' status location or device into a combat advantage. They laugh at our quaint notions of just warfare, and exploit that idealistic weakness at every opportunity.

This war has no hollywood glamour at all. It is nasty, brutal, sickening, and terrifying. To expect our poor soldiers to act like a John Wayne character in the midst of this horror is hopelessly naive.

constituent
07-15-2007, 02:53 PM
Wow, some of the language on here is just amazing...

did I really see a "ragheads"???

That's fine if you feel that way, but man... that's crazy. How is it the fault of civilians that some murderously rampaging, tweeked out robot "just doing my job," is wound up on booby traps and things of the like... what can you expect, what are you doing there in the first place?

And yes, this was an undeclared war! Just because the Ministry calls it a "war" doesn't mean that there was a declaration of war. As Rep. Paul says, we went in to enforce UN resolutions... not a declaration made by the congress.

You know what... you're right, it's all of those kids' faults that corporate mercenaries of all colors and nationalities are instigating violence in their midst. It is their fault that our friends in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are paying people to maintain the level of violence, ensuring the excuse for an eternal occupation. I've begun to see the light.

oldpaths1611
07-15-2007, 03:11 PM
This is the reality of modern war. Suicidal enemies who are willing to die have changed the rules. If I was in those soldier's shoes, I'd be doing exactly the same thing. Why take a chance that some raghead is just waiting with a grenade in his hand for some dumbass teenage soldier to approach to give first aid? Also, there is the fact that no Americans are being captured and treated as POW's. No, captured Americans get slowly tortured to death and turned into snuff film movie stars for the delectation of the raghead masses. So kill 'em all, and let god sort 'em out.



Sounds more like a rabid war mongering neocon than a Ron Paul supporter to me. Are you sure you're on the right forum?