To Ron Paul's Atheist supporters.... [Archive] - Ron Paul Forums / Liberty Forest

barcop

12-31-2007, 10:53 AM

Shink

12-31-2007, 10:56 AM

I agree with you (and am an atheist) but you'd be better off just not starting this thread. It's like telling an angry mob to calm down and they respond with "Shut the fuck up!"

OptionsTrader

12-31-2007, 10:56 AM

This post is not going to result in any positive discourse and should be deleted or moved to hot topics.

Alex Libman

12-31-2007, 10:57 AM

Ditto

Hope

12-31-2007, 10:57 AM

How hypocritical of you. Stop lecturing other people about what they should and shouldn't do and what they should and shouldn't call their creed.

I don't think I've seen anything on this board so divisive to date than the "You're not a Ron Paul supporter IF" line. Get over yourself. There is nothing wrong with civil debate. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. People are going to have differences of opinion and atheists are not somehow to blame for that fact.

MooCowzRock

12-31-2007, 10:58 AM

I agree. I love to discuss them, and they are always good discussions when kept in good nature...but too many people here dont know how to argue well and respectfully, Atheists and Creationists. It has nothing to do with Ron Paul or his campaign, and his point that the presidency has nothing to do with such a scientific matter, so it doesnt even matter that he doesnt believe in evolution, should be reason enough for no one to drop support over such an irrelevant issue. I'm an Atheist and a very strong Evolutionist, but I'd never consider dropping my support, or doing anything to hurt the campaign over an irrelevant issue. There are issues worth arguing over, such as immigration and the economy, or misconceptions about what Paul stands for in terms of whats relevant to the presidency, just to clairify things...but otherwise, it does nothing to help us.

Badger Paul

12-31-2007, 10:59 AM

Amen.

jondisx

12-31-2007, 11:00 AM

I love the discussions. They will continue.............

jake

12-31-2007, 11:00 AM

I agree with you (and am an atheist) but you'd be better off just not starting this thread. It's like telling an angry mob to calm down and they respond with "Shut the fuck up!"

I don't think there is an angry mob in in the first place. a few people voicing their opinions makes it appear that there is a division, but common sense says it's the loud minority stirring the pot. :)

brandon

12-31-2007, 11:00 AM

God hates athiests

Midnight77

12-31-2007, 11:01 AM

For RP to lose the support of atheists over something as ridiculous as his personal religious beliefs is asinine compared to the rest of the things that Paul stands for. If any atheist can point out where Paul said that he will enforce his beliefs upon everyone, I would love to see it. What a ridiculous thing to not vote for someone for.

Ibtz

12-31-2007, 11:02 AM

God hates athiests

Awww...now you done did it! :D

Shink

12-31-2007, 11:02 AM

God hates athiests

Stop.

brandon

12-31-2007, 11:03 AM

haha....im just kidding. I'm actually agnostic.

loupeznik

12-31-2007, 11:04 AM

There is no Atheist candidate even if we may want one. We have to focus on the other 90% issue we agree with Paul on.

garyallen59

12-31-2007, 11:04 AM

and God hates meat on meat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNJrCz62cyA

tsetsefly

12-31-2007, 11:06 AM

I agree this needs to stop. I am an atheist as well.

integrity

12-31-2007, 11:06 AM

it's a non-issue..... I am an agnostic leaning towards atheism, but I know that evangelicals shoving their beliefs down your throat is annoying at best.

you have your christian evangelicals and your atheist evangelicals.

Dan Klaus

12-31-2007, 11:07 AM

Hey Barcop - where in the world did this come from?? Of all the things that are being addressed at this date so close to Iowa - why in the world would this topic be of such dire importance to you that you would start this thread....

mavtek

12-31-2007, 11:07 AM

Huh?

brandon

12-31-2007, 11:07 AM

and God hates meat on meat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNJrCz62cyA

haha!!

MN Patriot

12-31-2007, 11:13 AM

Now the anti-Ron Paul people will say: "look at all the atheists who support Ron Paul!"

Another smear in the making. Everyone knows that atheists are much worse than white superemists and neo-nazi's.:rolleyes:

I'm agnostic myself, so relax.

MooCowzRock

12-31-2007, 11:19 AM

S3eker

12-31-2007, 11:23 AM

I'm an athiest and I don't care in what Ron Paul believes in. I care about the message more than the man. He gets my vote regardless.

Now, would the religious vote for Ron Paul if he was athiest?

mconder

12-31-2007, 11:35 AM

angelatc

12-31-2007, 11:41 AM

God hates athiests

I thought God loved everybody?

Kade

12-31-2007, 12:01 PM

God hates athiests

Is this anything like the Easter Bunny hating Elmer Fudd?

Mom4Ron

12-31-2007, 12:02 PM

I have my suspicions that the foul language on this site comes from the non-religious Ron Paul supporters more often that those of faith. This is my only gripe with the agnostics and atheists is that they could have at least a small measure of respect for their religious friends and abstain from using the F word every 2 seconds. Other than that, I could care less what God(s) you worship or no God(s) at all.

I don't know about that. I visit some other forums, where most of the posters are some brand of Christianity or another, and they are some of the most vulgar folks I've ever had the displeasure to read.

I've actually been called a prudish schoolmarm by Christians when I object to their constant innuendo.

As to the topic at hand, as an agnostic who leans toward atheism, as long as he continues to recognize and respect the restraints that the constitution places on the federal government, then he can believe in whatever he wants.

Thomas Paine

12-31-2007, 12:02 PM

I have my suspicions that the foul language on this site comes from the non-religious Ron Paul supporters more often that those of faith. This is my only gripe with the agnostics and atheists is that they could have at least a small measure of respect for their religious friends and abstain from using the F word every 2 seconds. Other than that, I could care less what God(s) you worship or no God(s) at all.

"When [Clare Booth] Luce notice a Bible on [General] Patton's camp table, she asked excitedly, 'General, do you read the Bible?' 'Every goddamned day,' he replied." -- from "I was with Patton: First-Person Accounts of WWII in George S. Patton's Command" by D.A. Lande.

Kade

12-31-2007, 12:05 PM

Again, there is absolutely not a single reason for an Atheist to NOT support Paul, because of their views on religion and evolution(ALSO, evolution is not just an Atheist view, its pretty much supported by most Christians, the entire Catholic church, and most people in the US).

Why? Because despite his view of evolution, it has nothing to do with what his actions would be as president! Its just a personal belief!

I still support, but don't say there is not a reason for Atheists to be wary. Ron Paul's voting record has supported laws that force the non-religious to support government officials promotion of religion, and to trump world views, like an amendment supporting a definition of human life.

This absolutism here, and the fanaticism presented by supporters is growing increasing scary. Why don't you guys start holding up signs that read:

"Agree with Ron Paul, or you hate freedom."

That is what all of you are implying.

1000-points-of-fright

12-31-2007, 12:41 PM

And yes... Atheism is a religion. Repeat that over and over again... because that is what Ron Paul believes.

No, it's not. It pisses me off to no end when people say this. It's a cheap attempt to make religion and atheism intellectually equal. It goes something like this.. atheists think religion is stupid therefore if atheism is a religion it's stupid too... ha, gotcha. No, wrong.

Religions involves belief in some sort of divinity or supreme creator and is constrained by dogma and ritual. Therefore, atheism cannot be a religion. It's simply a concept. Some may be overly zealous in their atheism, but it's NOT a religion. It has no dogma or rituals. It's not even a philosophy.

Hell, Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion and it trumps atheism as far as ritual and dogma.

FYI: I'm an agnostic so none of this matters to me. I think that anyone who is absolutely sure one way or the other is supremely arrogant.

MayTheRonBeWithYou

12-31-2007, 12:44 PM

Atheists are free to voice our opinions about the campaign. Half (or more!) of the people on this message board are atheists.

ExpatinArgentina

12-31-2007, 12:45 PM

I'm Buddhist and welcome you all! Peace and love baby!

barcop

12-31-2007, 01:21 PM

No, it's not. It pisses me off to no end when people say this. It's a cheap attempt to make religion and atheism intellectually equal. It goes something like this.. atheists think religion is stupid therefore if atheism is a religion it's stupid too... ha, gotcha. No, wrong.

Religions involves belief in some sort of divinity or supreme creator and is constrained by dogma and ritual. Therefore, atheism cannot be a religion. It's simply a concept. Some may be overly zealous in their atheism, but it's NOT a religion. It has no dogma or rituals. It's not even a philosophy.

Hell, Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion and it trumps atheism as far as ritual and dogma.

FYI: I'm an agnostic so none of this matters to me. I think that anyone who is absolutely sure one way or the other is supremely arrogant.

Sorry to have pissed you off to no end... but the definition of religion is not confined to what you think it is. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

Anyway... the OP was not meant to start more arguing. As an Atheist... I didn't understand why other Atheists would be making posts saying they were going to jump ship and stop supporting him just because of Ron Paul's comments about evolution. That's all.

GO RON PAUL!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2

12-31-2007, 01:59 PM

Now, would the religious vote for Ron Paul if he was athiest?

Who cares?

I have my suspicions that the foul language on this site comes from the non-religious Ron Paul supporters more often that those of faith. This is my only gripe with the agnostics and atheists is that they could have at least a small measure of respect for their religious friends and abstain from using the F word every 2 seconds. Other than that, I could care less what God(s) you worship or no God(s) at all.

Awww, man. I don't cuss online that much at all, as it rarely helps get a point accross. In friendly company, I must have an f word popping out every few sentences.

I do, though, think your request for more friendly language is appropriate, and I'd certainly accept that in person as well. I'm more bothered when people start threads trying to tell everyone what they should or shouldn't talk about.

This quote is from another thread and it sums things up quite nicely.

We didn't get this far by working together, we got this far together by working independently. And that is what the other campaigns can not understand.

So, all of these thread requests for "togetherness" isn't even helpful, IMO. It's what we're doing here that's important, not the differences we all have. Those sorts of threads make it sound like the differences are important.

Sey.Naci

12-31-2007, 02:09 PM

As an Atheist... I am asking you to please stop the division you are creating between us and Christian (or any other religion) supporters over these pointless arguements of evolution and seperation of church and state.

Ron Paul is a Christian... and has Christian beliefs... but he is not now or never would be like the "Christian Leader" Huckabee. But he does believe in his freedom of speech and liberty to have his Christian beliefs. If you want us to have the same freedom of speech and liberty about Atheism... then you must respect him and other Christians.

We can live together... if we only do what Ron Paul has been fighting for all along... respect the Constitution. As an Atheist... I have absolutely 100% confidence that Ron Paul will fight for my freedom of liberty... just as much as he would for any Christian.

Congress shall make no law for or against any religion. And yes... Atheism is a religion. Repeat that over and over again... because that is what Ron Paul believes.

Either you want individual freedom and liberty to believe in anything you want and allow others the same freedom... or you do not. If you do not... then Ron Paul is not the right canidate for you.Why are you blaming atheists for this? I'm an atheist and haven't raised a peep about the evolution kerfuffle.

There are Christians who accept evolution too, you know, and any number of other people who hold differing theological and non-theological world views. They could as easily be among those inquiring about Dr. Paul's position as a few atheists.

Not to mention that among those for whom this appears to be a "hot button issue," are, without doubt, moles from other camps.
.

literatim

12-31-2007, 02:16 PM

No, it's not. It pisses me off to no end when people say this. It's a cheap attempt to make religion and atheism intellectually equal. It goes something like this.. atheists think religion is stupid therefore if atheism is a religion it's stupid too... ha, gotcha. No, wrong.

Just because you deny that it is a religion, doesn't mean it isn't.

Religions involves belief in some sort of divinity or supreme creator and is constrained by dogma and ritual. Therefore, atheism cannot be a religion. It's simply a concept. Some may be overly zealous in their atheism, but it's NOT a religion. It has no dogma or rituals. It's not even a philosophy.

Atheism has its own dogma, that being, a higher power of some sort didn't create everything and thus every living thing had to evolve from primordial scum.

Hell, Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion and it trumps atheism as far as ritual and dogma.

religion n. 1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Liberty Star

12-31-2007, 02:20 PM

Atheist supporters are not creating problems as such, this kind of discussion will not help.

Wendi

12-31-2007, 03:21 PM

I agree with the original post. You could probably reverse "Christian" and "Atheist" or even insert any other religion you wish, and have the same powerful message. Freedom is freedom - and it applies to everyone equally. That's the whole point.

Seanmc30

12-31-2007, 03:43 PM

God hates athiests

Maybe, but in conversations about freedom in the United States, God's opinion is not supposed to be involved.

eldeeder

12-31-2007, 04:58 PM

As an Atheist... I am asking you to please stop the division you are creating between us and Christian (or any other religion) supporters over these pointless arguements of evolution and seperation of church and state.

Ron Paul is a Christian... and has Christian beliefs... but he is not now or never would be like the "Christian Leader" Huckabee. But he does believe in his freedom of speech and liberty to have his Christian beliefs. If you want us to have the same freedom of speech and liberty about Atheism... then you must respect him and other Christians.

We can live together... if we only do what Ron Paul has been fighting for all along... respect the Constitution. As an Atheist... I have absolutely 100% confidence that Ron Paul will fight for my freedom of liberty... just as much as he would for any Christian.

Congress shall make no law for or against any religion. And yes... Atheism is a religion. Repeat that over and over again... because that is what Ron Paul believes.

Either you want individual freedom and liberty to believe in anything you want and allow others the same freedom... or you do not. If you do not... then Ron Paul is not the right canidate for you.

I agree with you almost totally. The only thing i dont agree with is Atheism being a religon. It is not. There is no structure, scripture, or buildings. No songs to sing, and different ideas about the universe in general. If not believing in God is a religon, then so is not believing in batman.

On that note, let me stress how proud and united I feel with the christians on this forum. It really has given me a different perspective on christianity.

However, I do love to discuss these topics, and always as civil as possible. So If people are up for a friendly discussion, lets go for it.

I don't feel we are dividing the group at all. Its amazing that something like this movement can bring such a diverse group of intellegent, thinking people together. Im just proud to be a part of that.

Mesogen

12-31-2007, 05:13 PM

Sorry to have pissed you off to no end... but the definition of religion is not confined to what you think it is. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

Anyway... the OP was not meant to start more arguing. As an Atheist... I didn't understand why other Atheists would be making posts saying they were going to jump ship and stop supporting him just because of Ron Paul's comments about evolution. That's all.

GO RON PAUL!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

Uh, why did you link to a definition that contradicts your position?

religion

noun

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. Atheism is NONE of this.

If you want to see religion in action watch "Jesus Camp."

WHOA!

I watched it last night on A&E. Super scary stuff. The way they were able to totally brainwash those kids is pretty frightening.

barcop

12-31-2007, 06:48 PM

Uh, why did you link to a definition that contradicts your position?

You do realize that the term religion has a broad spectrum of definition... don't you?

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience

8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion

I have been an Atheist for over 12 years and it takes just as much faith to not believe in a God as it does to believe in God. A true Atheist is just as devoted to Atheism as a true Christian is to Christianity. Both are belief systems based on religion definitions.

Go to an Atheist meeting sometime.... someone will always be preaching about not wanting to be preached to :D

elahewu

12-31-2007, 07:00 PM

Agnostics are just atheists too pu**y to admit it. J/K

I'm not worried about Ron's religious beliefs. I believe that he wants to follow the Constitution and the law and that's what matters. The Constitution is neutral as far as religion goes. See 1st bill of rights

Mesogen

12-31-2007, 07:25 PM

You do realize that the term religion has a broad spectrum of definition... don't you?

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience

8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion

I have been an Atheist for over 12 years and it takes just as much faith to not believe in a God as it does to believe in God. A true Atheist is just as devoted to Atheism as a true Christian is to Christianity. Both are belief systems based on religion definitions.

Go to an Atheist meeting sometime.... someone will always be preaching about not wanting to be preached to :D

Hmm. I've never heard of an atheist meeting. Anyway, I agree that completely denying the existence of the supernatural (or somehow outside this plane of existence) requires faith, since there's no way to know one way or another. Admitting that you don't know something is the most honest position to take when you really honestly don't know something.

Do(es) god(s) exist? Y/N? The most honest answer is "I don't know." Anything else is fooling yourself.

Big Lou

12-31-2007, 08:05 PM

Atheism has its own dogma, that being, a higher power of some sort didn't create everything and thus every living thing had to evolve from primordial scum.

Not true. You seem to be making a flawed logic assumption here. I believe that there is no god, mostly because there is no evidence. Separate from that, scientific evidence leads me to believe that every living thing probably has a shared ancestor (that scum you referenced). I make no "A, therefore B" argument here.

Also, why is it so bad if we all did come from scum? Some of us find it fascinating and awe-inspiring that we share our ancestry with all living things, and that all life on Earth is connected. Maybe that is too humbling for some people to handle?

In the end, I don't care what Ron Paul's religion is, and I wouldn't really care if he said evolution was bullshit. He's running as a strict constitutionalist candidate for President. Would anyone care about the Pope's views on economics?

MooCowzRock

01-01-2008, 02:09 AM

I still support, but don't say there is not a reason for Atheists to be wary. Ron Paul's voting record has supported laws that force the non-religious to support government officials promotion of religion, and to trump world views, like an amendment supporting a definition of human life.

Limiting people's rights to exercise their religion in schools, something the government has not right to do is especially constitutional. Aslong as something isnt limiting the rights of someone else, people have a right to practice their religion. And if a Muslim needs to pray 4 times a day, he should be allowed time to pray. If a Christian feels the need to pray, he should be allowed to, and not in any way limited from doing so by the government, otherwise that falls within the First Amendment clause of "limiting the free exercise."

Abortion and where life begins is not a purely Atheist versus Theist view, though. I'm a strong proponent of Evolution, and am relatively educated on the subject, and am also a very strong Atheist, but I consider life to begin at conception. I support the law Ron Paul proposed, even as an Atheist and Evolutionist, which proves that he hasnt done anything to promote any religious views that are unconstitutional or unAmerican/anti-freedom.

Bowie

01-01-2008, 06:42 AM

You can't stop these kinds of debates; they are healthy, I think.

Civil debates are what improves humanity. (The Presidential "debates" ironically do not :p)

But it is paramount that we all have the self-esteem not to take such arguments personally and distinguish attacks on belief from attacks on character and respond accordingly. :)

hypnagogue

01-01-2008, 09:09 AM

Atheism is a religion. Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sexual position. That's all.

WayOfTheDodo

01-01-2008, 12:38 PM

Atheism is NONE of this.
Indeed. Atheism is one single thing: Not believing in God.

You cannot create a system out of one single thing.

Mesogen

01-01-2008, 12:40 PM

Or like bald is a hair color.

RonPaulMania

01-01-2008, 02:55 PM

I agree with you almost totally. The only thing i dont agree with is Atheism being a religon. It is not. There is no structure, scripture, or buildings. No songs to sing, and different ideas about the universe in general. If not believing in God is a religon, then so is not believing in batman.

If you look at the word religion etymologically it comes from religere or "to reconnect" and it's classical definition is a "set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people about socieity", but the general meaning used in common English is that of a believers of a certain faith. Using the classical definition atheists are a religion as they have general beliefs about society that can be easily identifiable. Many atheists educated enough on the subject admit it's a religion.

On that note, let me stress how proud and united I feel with the christians on this forum. It really has given me a different perspective on christianity.

That's great. The point of the thread, and I agree, is the overall hostility to any mention of God and Church and State by Dr. Paul. It seems the personal moral issue of how to deal with this is undermining the campaign.

However, I do love to discuss these topics, and always as civil as possible. So If people are up for a friendly discussion, lets go for it.

How many are civil without name-calling? You cannot build up while tearing down each other.

I don't feel we are dividing the group at all. Its amazing that something like this movement can bring such a diverse group of intellegent, thinking people together. Im just proud to be a part of that.

I think such matters are becoming dividing if you look at the evidence on the board. I think the other issue is the age of the board. Younger people have a tendency to galvanize their views over everything and everyone, and when you get older you pick your battles. I don't agree with Dr. Paul on everything but I don't make it a federal case because no one comes close to his platform.

We should be uniting, but look at how many pro-evolution threads are started to incite anger. It's not a coincidence. Look at how many religion threads are started to incite anger. There is a common theme of anger to flame up the emotions of a religion. Us Christians call this the spirit of the diabolic as means to destroy and tear asunder.

We should unite and forget such debates. Not because free-speech shouldn't be permitted, but when the issue of getting probably the last elected official I think is ethical and honest before my death (and I'm 31) I think the stakes are much higher than the arguments of personal beliefs on issues not related to the platform of Dr. Paul.

WayOfTheDodo

01-02-2008, 12:54 AM

If you look at the word religion etymologically it comes from religere or "to reconnect" and it's classical definition is a "set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people about socieity", but the general meaning used in common English is that of a believers of a certain faith. Using the classical definition atheists are a religion as they have general beliefs about society that can be easily identifiable.
This is incorrect. Atheism is just one single thing - the lack of belief in God. How do you make a set of something which is only one thing alone? The only thing atheists have in common is that they do not believe in God.

Is baldness a hair colour?

We should be uniting, but look at how many pro-evolution threads are started to incite anger. It's not a coincidence. Look at how many religion threads are started to incite anger. There is a common theme of anger to flame up the emotions of a religion. Us Christians call this the spirit of the diabolic as means to destroy and tear asunder.
That something evokes emotion does not mean that it is a religion.

Politics evokes emotion. Are libertarianism, socialism, etc. religions?

Your arguments are fallacious.