Huckabee wants to restrict dual citizenship

[cindy25]

this could be an opportunity here, NH and MI are border states with a lot of dual USA/Canadians

from Newsmax:

Republican presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee supports a measure that would make it a crime for Americans with dual citizenship to vote in foreign elections, perform military service in other nations, or even use a foreign passport.
Huckabee’s "Secure America Plan" includes a call to "discourage dual citizenship" by imposing "civil and/or criminal penalties on American citizens who illegitimately use their dual status."
Prohibited uses of dual citizenship would include "using a foreign passport, voting in elections in both a foreign country and the U.S.," and other actions.
Huckabee’s plan is based largely on work done by the Center for Immigration Studies.
Holding dual citizenship creates “supercitizens” with split loyalties, said Mark Krikorian, the Center’s executive director. “It’s the political equivalent of bigamy.”
And Stanley Renshon, a political science professor at the City University of New York who has worked with the Center, said dual citizenship and voting abroad are “a hindrance” to integrating new Americans into the country, the New York Sun reports.
But the proposal is not likely to sit well with Americans with ties to Israel, Taiwan, Poland, Iraq, and other nations who have voted in those countries in large numbers in recent years.
“For Americans of many ethnic backgrounds — including Americans Jews who are also citizens of Israel — any move to punish dual citizenship may cause resentment,” the Jewish publication Forward observed.
Marc Stern, general counsel for the American Jewish Congress, said the proposal “would create huge problems . . . Some states won’t even allow you to renounce your citizenship.”
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1967 that American citizens did not lose their citizenship by voting in an Israeli election.
In 2005, John Hayworth, who was then a Republican congressman from Arizona, introduced a bill that would have imposed jail time or a fine on naturalized American dual nationals for voting in foreign elections, using a foreign passport, or serving in the armed forces of their second country, according to the Sun.
The bill never made it out of committee.

[electronicmaji]

Whats wrong with voting in two elections? Whats wrong with being a dual citizen? I don't get it this is ridiculous. I'm a dual citizen myself and spend about equal time in both countries. Why exactly would Huckabee stop me from not paying tourism taxes to go back? Why would he not let me vote in one country and then the other? The idea is ludicrous!

[cindy25]

its a matter of control. all dictatorships are paranoid about dual citizenship

[Sergeant Brother]

If Huckabee extends this to include dual American-Israeli citizens then my opinion of him will increase dramatically.

[angelatc]

He can try. The Supreme Court has already pretty much nullified all that stuff.

[erikm]

Whats wrong with voting in two elections? Whats wrong with being a dual citizen? I don't get it this is ridiculous. I'm a dual citizen myself and spend about equal time in both countries. Why exactly would Huckabee stop me from not paying tourism taxes to go back? Why would he not let me vote in one country and then the other? The idea is ludicrous!

It isn't so much the voting in two elections, it is other issues. Some countries (like the US) require its citizens to file for taxes in their countries, regardless of place of income, residence etc.:mad:
In other countries it is illegal to give up one's citizenship (Marocco IIRC).
There are also countries with the draft, which they also apply to (children of) emigrant (but still citizen) families, whether or not those people have ever lived (or been to) their citizen country. This gets worse when parents' citizenship automatically applies to the kids :(
Then there are the real or perceived loyalty issues, including pressure by one 'home' country for its dual-citizenship citizens to act 'disloyal' to their other 'home' country :eek:

Cheers,
ErikM

[emk]

Dual citizens have the rights and obligations of two countries.

If Huckabee wants to penalize expats then he needs to abolish the $80,000 limit on tax credits for foreign earned income. If expats pay their taxes the US and their host state then they deserve the right to vote as well, and all the other benefits of citizenship.

[Man from La Mancha]

Elected officials or military personal should be loyal to only one country and should be banned from dual citizenship but all others would be fine. How many in congress now have dual citizenship with Israel? How would one know where their loyalty lie?

.

[literatim]

I personally agree with removing dual citizenship. To have two citizenships is a conflict of interests.

[emk]

I personally agree with removing dual citizenship. To have two citizenships is a conflict of interests.


Citizenship does not equal loyalty, lots of people get/drop a citizenship for purely pragmatic reasons.

[jonahtrainer]

I personally agree with removing dual citizenship. To have two citizenships is a conflict of interests.

No way! Multiple citizenships are a key tool in planning one's estate and I suggest such to all my clients. Having one's assets and investments spread throughout the globe to diversify and minimize political risk is essential. Having a 'passport portfolio' is extremely important. The only limitation needed in this regard is on the President as found in the Constitution. The Sovereign Individual is beholden to no single government.

Remember, nations are brands like Coke or Pepsi and when the sweet nectar of freedom is drained they should be crushed, melted, reformed and refilled. As Ben Franklin said "Where there is liberty, there is my country."

I know that if a bill like this were to pass I would instruct all my clients to liquidate all US denominated and based assets as soon as possible and renounce US citizenship. Most have been implementing my plan for renouncing citizenship so they are prepared to do so. I would also probably renounce citizenship and sail for better shores. All this would do is drive off more capital, both human and economic. Being in this industry I can testify that the drain on human and economic capital from the US over the past 6 years has already been huge. I can't imagine the drain if a bill like this were to be passed.

[literatim]

Oh, I see, you get to manipulate the market only at the cost of our sovereignty and state secrets. Cheap.

[rockwell]

Whats wrong with voting in two elections? Whats wrong with being a dual citizen? I don't get it this is ridiculous. I'm a dual citizen myself and spend about equal time in both countries. Why exactly would Huckabee stop me from not paying tourism taxes to go back? Why would he not let me vote in one country and then the other? The idea is ludicrous!

Because dual citizenship implies dual loyalties.

It's like bigamy.

[thisisgiparti]

If Huckabee extends this to include dual American-Israeli citizens then my opinion of him will increase dramatically.

the worst sort of political pandering.

[Nefertiti]

Lots of problems with this. If a person has parents of American and another nationality, they are likely to be born with 2 citizenships whether they choose it or not. I know someone who is a dual Egyptian-New Zealander and his wife is American. Their kids have 3 passports! Then what do you do if the person is also a citizen of a country where it is a crime to not vote, or where military service is mandatory and dual citizens are not exempt? If he wants to pass this law, then he is going to have to revoke all the dual citizens' of Israel's citizenship because they are all required to enter the Israeli military. There is no way the Jewish lobby will support this.

I didn't violate any crime in either country when I got dual citizenship and I can say on this issue alone hell will have to freeze over before I would vote for this man. He's just put himself in the same category as Tancredo in my book. No vote under any circumstances.

Dual citizens do not have divided loyalties, they have loyalty to two countries, and that implies a double set of responsibilities. Single citizens can be arrogant. Dual citizens have to think about what they do more carefully and show respect for the laws of two countries. It's for a country's benefit to have dual citizens.

[ChooseLiberty]

Dual citizenship = Dual loyalty

The Supreme Court has made many many bad decisions that eventually get reversed.

[ChooseLiberty]

A lot of countries try to promote their agenda with dual US citizenship.

Mexico, Israel.

They are trying to Balkanize the US and it's working.

[Paul.Bearer.of.Injustice]

I agree with Huck on this one.

Dual citizenship is a conflict of interest and most people abuse it to evade taxes and move their wealth out of America.
Our economy isn't a plaything. If you made your fortune in America, you have an ethical responsibility to keep your wealth here.

[literatim]

The object isn't to deny citizenship to people that is a citizen elsewhere outright, but to force them to rescind their citizenship from any foreign country. If you are going to immigrate here, you need to cut off relationship with another country.

When you become a citizen you take this oath:
I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

If you have dual citizenship, you have broken your oath.

[Bradley in DC]

We had a discussion about this a ways back
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=10383

[Bradley in DC]

Oh, I see, you get to manipulate the market only at the cost of our sovereignty and state secrets. Cheap.

This is Dr. Paul's position you're calling cheap. ;)

[HOLLYWOOD]

People also do it for ENTITLEMENTS purposes...

Work a couple of years here in the US and you get SS/Medacare/etc... that's what most foreigners are doing in this country... then they can go back to Mexico/Denmark/Greece/ Whereever the standard of living is very low and live comfortably (Double Dipping).

This is another reason RP exploits the Inflation Tax... retired people are having a difficult time surviving and trying to make ends meet, with todays TAXES, FEES, Expenses/SS/Medical.

For Example" Go to Denmark and you have Social medicine assist you as well as retirement paychecks from both the US & Denmark. Double dip AND choose the place that's least expensive to retire to... US government is so screwed up on the social programs/ entitlements... yotta yotta

REMEMBER, The US Federal Goverment will CRIPPLE you with; TAXES, FEES, CHARGES, PENALTIES, INFLATIONS... THEN they'll sell you Crutches!

PS: How many BILLION$ were wired out of the US to Mexico last year? Yeah, Cost of Living... being sent to where the best deal is located.

[literatim]

This is Dr. Paul's position you're calling cheap. ;)

Why do you think I care what Dr. Paul's position is on this? This is not some cult where we kneel down to his positions.

[johngr]

If Huckabee extends this to include dual American-Israeli citizens then my opinion of him will increase dramatically.

I doubt he would apply it to Chosenites. It would seriously limit his choices for cabinet posts and diplomatic appointments, for example.

[ChooseLiberty]

I know I feel more comfortable knowing that the head of Heimland Security might be a dual citizen with Israel.

;)

[Bradley in DC]

Why do you think I care what Dr. Paul's position is on this? This is not some cult where we kneel down to his positions.

The stated purpose of this forum is to promote Dr. Paul's agenda. No one's forcing you to come here. :rolleyes:

[literatim]

The stated purpose of this forum is to promote Dr. Paul's agenda. No one's forcing you to come here. :rolleyes:

We are in General Politics & Other.

[Bradley in DC]

We are in General Politics & Other.

You asked why we on this forum should care what Dr. Paul thinks.

This forum is dedicated to pursuing the agenda of Dr. Paul (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22) and seeing his campaign win the 2008 presidential election, the forums structure and guidelines are designed to fulfill this purpose while allowing as much latitude in posting as possible and de-empowering agent provocateurs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur

[bbachtung]

The object isn't to deny citizenship to people that is a citizen elsewhere outright, but to force them to rescind their citizenship from any foreign country. If you are going to immigrate here, you need to cut off relationship with another country.

When you become a citizen you take this oath:
I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

If you have dual citizenship, you have broken your oath.

A lot of those who have dual citizenship are natural born Americans who never take the oath to be naturalized because they don't have to. I had a professor in law school who was born in the United States to parents who were born in the United States, but through a fluke of immigration law was entitled to Irish citizenship because his maternal grandmother was an Irish citizen.

This allowed him to work in the EU without having to apply for permits, visas, etc. and made traveling between the U.S. and Ireland simple because citizens can clear customs much more easily (he used his U.S. passport to enter the U.S. and his Irish passport to enter Ireland / the EU).

Finally, it is important to note that the oath requires that you forsake any allegiance to another country / government; however, the U.S. does not have the authority to change another country's laws regarding whether a person can renounce his / her citizenship. If another country refuses to accept a renunciation, then there is no solution to this problem short of the U.S. invading the foreign country and changing their laws for them.

[literatim]

You asked why we on this forum should care what Dr. Paul thinks.

No, I asked, "Why do you think I care"?



This forum is dedicated to pursuing the agenda of Dr. Paul (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=22) and seeing his campaign win the 2008 presidential election, the forums structure and guidelines are designed to fulfill this purpose while allowing as much latitude in posting as possible and de-empowering agent provocateurs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur


This a soft off topic forum. Keep it relatively clean and share your randomness.

Have fun with it but please don't go wild.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40

[ChooseLiberty]

It's great when the "dual citizenship" issue comes up and all these types chime in -

"I'm a dual citizen with Switzerland, Denmark, Australia, etc. and I think it's ok."

Look, none of those countries have 15 MILLION ILLEGALS in the US like Mexico or are trying to undermine US sovereignty or are trying to steer the US into tragic preemptive wars in the Middle East to protect Israel.

Please understand the problem.

[Bradley in DC]

No, I asked, "Why do you think I care"?


And I answered I would have thought that everyone coming to a forum explicitly dedicated to Dr. Paul's agenda should care. :p

[Sandy]

Elected officials or military personal should be loyal to only one country and should be banned from dual citizenship but all others would be fine. How many in congress now have dual citizenship with Israel? How would one know where their loyalty lie?

.

I agree, yet we have members of the CFR for example in Congress and in the gov't, no loyalty to America there.

[ExpatinArgentina]

Dual citizens have the rights and obligations of two countries.

If Huckabee wants to penalize expats then he needs to abolish the $80,000 limit on tax credits for foreign earned income. If expats pay their taxes the US and their host state then they deserve the right to vote as well, and all the other benefits of citizenship.

Why should I pay the same amount of taxes as those living in the U.S. when I don't use the same amount of services being outside the U.S.? And does my military service count for anything?

[PaleoForPaul]

Duel citizenship shouldn't exist.

You're an American citizen or you're not.

[RPFTW!]

I think Huckabee is right on this particular issue

[electronicmaji]

There is nothing wrong with Dual Citizenship. My father is a missionary. He has daul Colombian-American Citizenship. If he did not he could not work in Colombia for 9 months out of the year and come to the United States and raise support the rest of the months. Fact is Loyalty to America means one thing; Loyalty to freedom. America is not some almight nation or figure that makes it right to be unceasingly patriotic and loyal to it. If you are loyal to the nation only then you should support anything its leaders do! Thats craziness.

Loyalty to America is loyalty to an ideal. Those of the founding fathers. No matter where those ideals are found on earth. Be it America, Europe, Or somewhere else.

[jonahtrainer]

Loyalty to America is loyalty to an ideal. Those of the founding fathers. No matter where those ideals are found on earth. Be it America, Europe, Or somewhere else.

The loyalty is to principles of the Sovereign Individual as contained in the Declaration of Independence. America is just another nation-state brand. In many cases, people have to leave America to find the Freedom the Founding Fathers sought. As Ben Franklin said, "Where there is freedom; there is my country."


I agree with Huck on this one.

Dual citizenship is a conflict of interest and most people abuse it to evade taxes and move their wealth out of America.
Our economy isn't a plaything. If you made your fortune in America, you have an ethical responsibility to keep your wealth here.

Why Mrs. Clinton?

[rightobeleftalone]

The United States Gov't is destroying America. If the gov't creates a tyranny, I would leave and hope I could obtain citizenship in another country. Having a plan 'B' would necesitate obtaining that citizenship before the tyranny is imposed. It is not I who is dis-loyal by so doing but rather it is the 'Hucksters' of our land that are dis-loyal or, dare I say, traitors for destroying America with their unfaithfullness to their sworn oath to protect and defend the Constitution.

[cindy25]

dual citizenship does not make the Zionists more or less loyal to Israel. Lieberman is not a dual citizen. Schumer is not a dual citizen. there are already laws restricting citizenship of military and elected officials. no one else need to be restricted in any way.
this is an issue of freedom, and Freedom House grades countries on 3 issues:
Dual Citizenship
Death Penalty
Conscription
and the counties almost always fall into a line where those with Dual Citizenship are those without the Death Penalty and Conscription. and vice versa.

[Noleader]

I am a duel citizen but I will tell you this: I am American as it gets. I have no interest to go live in Italy nor do I take part in any italian election (except to elect a Senator that repersents American/Italian Duel Citizens). I also would not have any issue renouncing my Citizenship to Italy if they ever acted Hostile to America.

On a side note it is already illegel for an American duel citizen to serve in a different nations military without permission form the U.S. Government; atleast that is what my passpost says.

[lbadragan]

I'm a duel citizen but by default since I've never renounced my previous citizenship by writing to them. Most countries WANT Americans to remain their citizens as well for economic reasons. I gotta say I agree with Huckabee on this one.

[electronicmaji]

If I had to decide between the US and Colombia because Huckabee makes it legal. Even thought death rate is horrible and Colombia is very violent. Even though I probably could not make al iving there. I would probably have to renounce my american citizenship since the american economy is in worse condition and I refuse to live in a country with neocons as presidents...