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LibertiORDeth
12-27-2007, 03:27 PM
My friend and I were talking about Ron Paul a few days ago, and it turned into discussion about freedoms and liberties, and he (who is an Uber strict self-rightous Christian) claims that the only reason atheists are backing him is because they want total anarchy, and don't want any leadership or consequence for their actions. I said that I have never met anyone who believes that a murderer or rapist should not be punished, and he continued to spout off against atheists. I am a Christian, but I think that no matter what religion you can still have good political beliefs, and believe in freedom but not necessarily anarchy. As far as the war he is no different then the neo cons, although he does believe in preserving the constitution, defending our rights, he disagrees with a lot of libertarian philosophy, such as legalizing drugs.

davver
12-27-2007, 03:56 PM
My friend and I were talking about Ron Paul a few days ago, and it turned into discussion about freedoms and liberties, and he (who is an Uber strict self-rightous Christian) claims that the only reason atheists are backing him is because they want total anarchy, and don't want any leadership or consequence for their actions. I said that I have never met anyone who believes that a murderer or rapist should not be punished, and he continued to spout off against atheists. I am a Christian, but I think that no matter what religion you can still have good political beliefs, and believe in freedom but not necessarily anarchy. As far as the war he is no different then the neo cons, although he does believe in preserving the constitution, defending our rights, he disagrees with a lot of libertarian philosophy, such as legalizing drugs.

If you've already tried all the constitutional arguements for seperation of church and state try this.

Is moral action possible in the absence of choice?

Really, ask him this. If one doesn't use drugs or sell thier body because of the threat of police hitting them in the head with a club, they aren't making a moral choice. They are simply reacting out of fear. Only when one has the option to do these things, but doesn't, can it be considered a moral action.

God gave us the ability to make moral actions. The capacity for moral action is what makes human beings unique. If god needed to enforce his laws on earth, he could do so without the government. However, he chooses not too. Since we will ultimately be judged for our actions in the next life perhaps we should allow people to make true moral choices.

cujothekitten
12-27-2007, 04:07 PM
My friend and I were talking about Ron Paul a few days ago, and it turned into discussion about freedoms and liberties, and he (who is an Uber strict self-rightous Christian) claims that the only reason atheists are backing him is because they want total anarchy, and don't want any leadership or consequence for their actions. I said that I have never met anyone who believes that a murderer or rapist should not be punished, and he continued to spout off against atheists. I am a Christian, but I think that no matter what religion you can still have good political beliefs, and believe in freedom but not necessarily anarchy. As far as the war he is no different then the neo cons, although he does believe in preserving the constitution, defending our rights, he disagrees with a lot of libertarian philosophy, such as legalizing drugs.

Your friend sounds just as zealous as many of the "angry atheists" I knew in my youth. I'm an atheist and my best friend/roommate is an evangelical Christian, we both support Ron Paul.

Her faith is most important to her, my political views are most important to me. I go to her church with her, I'm friends with her pastor, and I agree that Christians should have more freedoms when it comes to voicing their religious convictions. Christians don't have a monopoly on morality and it sounds like your friend needs to understand that.

That being said I am also an anarchist. Ron Paul has quoted anarchists such as Spooner, and Rothbard. He's also friends with some of them so we can't be that bad.

ARealConservative
12-27-2007, 04:10 PM
bigotry isn't easy to argue against.

Your friend is clearly intolerant of atheists - to the point where he treats them as a collective.

I would point that out at the outset and work from there.

RoyalShock
12-27-2007, 04:12 PM
Speaking philosophically, since atheists, by definition, don't recognize a higher non-human authority, there is no accountability beyond the rule of law for their actions.

Since I'm a Christian, I don't know if there are atheists that look at the rule of law as a bad thing. But I can understand why a Christian might be wary of an atheist backing a small government candidate. I'm not suggesting the fear is justified, only understandable from a philosophical standpoint.

eldeeder
12-27-2007, 04:15 PM
atheists are heavily demonoized in our society. I am one. Atheist isnt a word that should even exist. There is no word for someone who doesnt believe in astrology, or in ghosts. An Atheist is a moral person. We get our morales through reason, not through ancient texts. We hold ourselves accountable for our own actions and do not resort to an "invisible eye" keeping us behaving ourselves.

KCIndy
12-27-2007, 04:16 PM
The funny thing is, just a little, little bit if digging shows that Ron Paul is a pretty devout Christian himself.

The reason he's getting support from non-Christians, IMHO, is that he's willing to live and let live, so to speak. He doesn't believe it's the government's job to push ANY religious agenda - something that I think almost everyone can agree on.

eldeeder
12-27-2007, 04:19 PM
The funny thing is, just a little, little bit if digging shows that Ron Paul is a pretty devout Christian himself.

The reason he's getting support from non-Christians, IMHO, is that he's willing to live and let live, so to speak. He doesn't believe it's the government's job to push ANY religious agenda - something that I think almost everyone can agree on.

100% Worship whatever you want to, but leave me, and the government out of it. You have as many rights as I do in our society, no less, no more, no matter how divine someone might think they are.

ronpaulitician
12-27-2007, 04:19 PM
Not an uncommon reaction to atheism.

Some people believe that without god there would be anarchy, as there would be no reason for people to behave morally, similar to how some people believe that without the war on drugs, everyone would use drugs. (Never mind that before the war on drugs, not everyone used drugs.)

cujothekitten
12-27-2007, 04:20 PM
Speaking philosophically, since atheists, by definition, don't recognize a higher non-human authority, there is no accountability beyond the rule of law for their actions.

Wrong. We still feel guilt and shame. I live by a golden rule of sorts and try to place myself in every situation. Would I want someone to kill my mother? Of course not, so why would I kill someone's mother? Would I want someone to steal from me? Of course not, so why would I steal?

On a personal level I feel the "rule of law" doesn't affect my life in the slightest. If I want to break the law there is nothing stopping me except my own convictions. The law isn't my moral compass.


Since I'm a Christian, I don't know if there are atheists that look at the rule of law as a bad thing.

It depends on the law really. I have a moral objection to a state determining what I can and can't do with my property (this includes my own body).


But I can understand why a Christian might be wary of an atheist backing a small government candidate. I'm not suggesting the fear is justified, only understandable from a philosophical standpoint.

I don't see how. There will be Christians that partake in "evil" actions with a small government as well (I've known my share that have beat their wives and done meth). Why don't we hear Christians showing fear over the actions of their own? What exactly do you think atheists are going to do with smaller government?

RoyalShock
12-27-2007, 04:20 PM
The funny thing is, just a little, little bit if digging shows that Ron Paul is a pretty devout Christian himself.

The reason he's getting support from non-Christians, IMHO, is that he's willing to live and let live, so to speak. He doesn't believe it's the government's job to push ANY religious agenda - something that I think almost everyone can agree on.

The Constitution is a friend of all freedom-loving people, religious or not. It's why Dr. Paul pulls support from across the ideological spectrum.

eldeeder
12-27-2007, 04:24 PM
The Constitution is a friend of all freedom-loving people, religious or not. It's why Dr. Paul pulls support from across the ideological spectrum.

1+

RoyalShock
12-27-2007, 04:28 PM
Wrong. We still feel guilt and shame. I live by a golden rule of sorts and try to place myself in every situation. Would I want someone to kill my mother? Of course not, so why would I kill someone's mother? Would I want someone to steal from me? Of course not, so why would I steal?

You choose to listen to your conscience and live by a "golden rule" yourself, not because you've submitted to a non-human authority. Of course, free willl allows anyone to do this, but people of faith accept that other people of faith will attempt to follow the tenets of their chosen religion. That's really a given. They don't generally accept that as a group, atheists will choose to live by a similar set of moral codes.

Again, I'm not saying it's a fair or justified characterization. I'm just stating the logic from a Christian point-of-view.

PledgeForPaul
12-27-2007, 04:50 PM
On a total population per capita basis non-theists commit less crimes (even when regressing in age, income level, and location) then theists. There are nearly 3 times the number of Christians as non-theists in prison (per capita). There is absolutely no evidence Christians hold higher morals unless you change your definition from "do not harm others" to Christian dogmas (such as being heterosexual). Non-theists win on many of the Christian dogmas as well (Non-theists have a significantly lower divorce rate).

But yes, always be afraid of atheists creeping out in the shadows of the night, caucusing for ron paul with a twisted sinister smile.

Sey.Naci
12-27-2007, 04:53 PM
Atheists are heavily demonoized in our society. I am one. Atheist isn't a word that should even exist. There is no word for someone who doesn't believe in astrology, or in ghosts. An atheist is a moral person. We get our morales through reason, not through ancient texts. We hold ourselves accountable for our own actions.I endorse this message.

LibertiORDeth
12-28-2007, 03:03 PM
On a total population per capita basis non-theists commit less crimes (even when regressing in age, income level, and location) then theists. There are nearly 3 times the number of Christians as non-theists in prison (per capita). There is absolutely no evidence Christians hold higher morals unless you change your definition from "do not harm others" to Christian dogmas (such as being heterosexual). Non-theists win on many of the Christian dogmas as well (Non-theists have a significantly lower divorce rate).

But yes, always be afraid of atheists creeping out in the shadows of the night, caucusing for ron paul with a twisted sinister smile.

Really I didn't no that, although it doesn't surprise me. ( I know a lot of Christians who are worse then atheists.

Eric21ND
12-28-2007, 03:31 PM
Atheists admire truth and reason, that is why we support Dr. Paul so passionately.

dircha
12-28-2007, 03:41 PM
My friend and I were talking about Ron Paul a few days ago, and it turned into discussion about freedoms and liberties, and he (who is an Uber strict self-rightous Christian) claims that the only reason atheists are backing him is because they want total anarchy, and don't want any leadership or consequence for their actions. I said that I have never met anyone who believes that a murderer or rapist should not be punished, and he continued to spout off against atheists. I am a Christian, but I think that no matter what religion you can still have good political beliefs, and believe in freedom but not necessarily anarchy. As far as the war he is no different then the neo cons, although he does believe in preserving the constitution, defending our rights, he disagrees with a lot of libertarian philosophy, such as legalizing drugs.

Congressman Paul is not running on a platform of "libertarian philosophy", whatever that is.

Congressman Paul is running as a candidate for federal office on a platform of restoring God-established Constitutional federal government within this country.

Tell your friend to educate himself about what God requires of a candidate for federal office in the United States, and refer him to this, Paul's endorsement by Michael Anthony Peroutka, staunch conservative Christian, and 2004 Constitution Party candidate for president:
http://www.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=926&PHPSESSID=fafa46458deb39d94a3fffd58ad98f4f

hawkeyenick
12-28-2007, 03:43 PM
My friend and I were talking about Ron Paul a few days ago, and it turned into discussion about freedoms and liberties, and he (who is an Uber strict self-rightous Christian) claims that the only reason atheists are backing him is because they want total anarchy, and don't want any leadership or consequence for their actions. I said that I have never met anyone who believes that a murderer or rapist should not be punished, and he continued to spout off against atheists. I am a Christian, but I think that no matter what religion you can still have good political beliefs, and believe in freedom but not necessarily anarchy. As far as the war he is no different then the neo cons, although he does believe in preserving the constitution, defending our rights, he disagrees with a lot of libertarian philosophy, such as legalizing drugs.

Morals don't come from the bible, they come from personal experience.

Duckman
12-28-2007, 03:43 PM
Yes, unfortunately one of the stereotypes of atheists is that they do not have any morals.

I believe this is grounded in an inability of some theists to understand why anyone would have morals if a god was not going to dole out punishment for not having any. But if you are religious, consider this: Is fear of judgement the ONLY reason you behave morally?

The fact is, your conscience is there whether you believe in God or not. Also, beyond the punishments of the law, the simple fact is if you damage your reputation by having no morals you aren't going to do very well in this world if nobody will trust you.

dircha
12-28-2007, 03:49 PM
Yes, unfortunately one of the stereotypes of atheists is that they do not have any morals.

I believe this is grounded in an inability of some theists to understand why anyone would have morals if a god was not going to dole out punishment for not having any. But if you are religious, consider this: Is fear of judgement the ONLY reason you behave morally?

The fact is, your conscience is there whether you believe in God or not. Also, beyond the punishments of the law, the simple fact is if you damage your reputation by having no morals you aren't going to do very well in this world if nobody will trust you.

If Congressman Paul were not a Christian, on what basis could we trust him to uphold his oath of office even when no one is watching?

aspiringconstitutionalist
12-28-2007, 03:51 PM
My friend and I were talking about Ron Paul a few days ago, and it turned into discussion about freedoms and liberties, and he (who is an Uber strict self-rightous Christian) claims that the only reason atheists are backing him is because they want total anarchy, and don't want any leadership or consequence for their actions. I said that I have never met anyone who believes that a murderer or rapist should not be punished, and he continued to spout off against atheists. I am a Christian, but I think that no matter what religion you can still have good political beliefs, and believe in freedom but not necessarily anarchy. As far as the war he is no different then the neo cons, although he does believe in preserving the constitution, defending our rights, he disagrees with a lot of libertarian philosophy, such as legalizing drugs.

This guy sounds like the kind of ignorant Bushbot I was a year ago.

Duckman
12-28-2007, 03:55 PM
If Congressman Paul were not a Christian, on what basis could we trust him to uphold his oath of office even when no one is watching?

Your trust could be based on the permanent damage to his reputation that would occur if he did otherwise.

dircha
12-28-2007, 04:06 PM
Your trust could be based on the permanent damage to his reputation that would occur if he did otherwise.

That doesn't answer the question.

If Congressman Paul were not a Christian, on what basis could we trust him to uphold his oath of office even when no one is watching - when we would not catch him if he broke it?

What would his slogan be? "Ron Atheist, the right man for the job, just don't turn your back on him?"

Duckman
12-28-2007, 04:16 PM
That doesn't answer the question.

If Congressman Paul were not a Christian, on what basis could we trust him to uphold his oath of office even when no one is watching - when we would not catch him if he broke it?

What would his slogan be? "Ron Atheist, the right man for the job, just don't turn your back on him?"

Please. How exactly would he be able to break the oath of office without anyone knowing or EVER being able to find out? I submit that even if it were possible, it would be a complete non-issue, since any action that nobody could ever notice happened is like the proverbial sound made by a tree falling in the forest with nobody to listen to it.

I'm sorry that you believe that people need the "fear of god" in them to do the right thing. I think you sell yourself short if you believe you need that in your own life. For me, I don't believe in god and yet I do not lie, cheat, steal, or take unfair advantages. I believe the Christian "golden rule" is a good moral concept but I don't need to believe in the fires of hell to decide I should follow it.

shane2
12-28-2007, 04:16 PM
#1 - In exercising his oath of office duties as President, I want a President that is foremost focused and dedicated to supporting, defending, and upholding the Constitution.

#2 - If he does #1, then my religious freedom to worship as I see fit without interference will be most assured and protected and prone to flourish, regardless of the Presidents own religious beliefs, or lack thereof.

#3 - A candidates religious beliefs and practices are of interest to me only to the degree that they might help illuminate or reveal his character and integrity to be, and remain, steadfastly committed to embrace #1 above, if elected.

- Shane

jdmetz
12-28-2007, 04:18 PM
That doesn't answer the question.

If Congressman Paul were not a Christian, on what basis could we trust him to uphold his oath of office even when no one is watching - when we would not catch him if he broke it?

What would his slogan be? "Ron Atheist, the right man for the job, just don't turn your back on him?"

Right, because Christians never do anything they shouldn't (I'm a Christian, and I know better than that).

[Edit] And a perfect example, Bush says he's a Christian, and he's done a perfect job of upholding his oath of office, right?

NCSURonPaulAddict
12-28-2007, 04:18 PM
As an athiest... it is Ron Paul's total respect for the rule of law that makes me support him, as opposed to a Christian's "rule of god" or "fear of god."

Abegweit
12-28-2007, 04:24 PM
If Congressman Paul were not a Christian, on what basis could we trust him to uphold his oath of office even when no one is watching - when we would not catch him if he broke it?

What would his slogan be? "Ron Atheist, the right man for the job, just don't turn your back on him?"What reason do we have to trust the Christians? With the exception of Jefferson, every President to date has been an avowed Christian and virtually every one has violated his oath of office, most notably the current one. Christians really have a bad record in this regard.

I trust Ron Paul because he has a proven record as an honest and incorruptible man, not because he happens to belong to some cult or other.

Huckleberry wears his faith on his sleeve. Do you trust him?

phixion
12-28-2007, 04:33 PM
If Congressman Paul were not a Christian, on what basis could we trust him to uphold his oath of office even when no one is watching?

It's unfortunate that many a priest has molested many a child while no-one was watching.

Nevermind. It's lost on you and your ilk.

Pete

Adamsa
12-28-2007, 04:33 PM
RP isn't an atheist, but he has absolutely no problems in you being one.

MayTheRonBeWithYou
12-28-2007, 04:35 PM
You might want to point out to your friend that atheists are far less likely to be in prison than Christians. Atheists are also far more likely to hold advanced college degrees.

Paulitician
12-28-2007, 05:06 PM
You might want to point out to your friend that atheists are far less likely to be in prison than Christians. Atheists are also far more likely to hold advanced college degrees.
Proof? I think such claims are faulty. Concerning the first one: that would be predictable because there are far many more people who consider themselves "Christian" than consider themselves "atheist" or even "agnostic." A similar thing could be said for your second statement, and so I disagree with it. Since Christians greatly outnumber atheists, it would be predictable for them to hold those "advanced college degrees." If your second statement were true, it'd be because there are so many Christians who dilute the percentage.

Nathan Baulch
12-28-2007, 05:09 PM
Atheists admire truth and reason, that is why we support Dr. Paul so passionately.

Ramen! I believe in libertarianism and free markets for exactly the same reason I believe in evolution by natural selection. The simple, natural solution is always the best!

Jackinbox
12-28-2007, 05:14 PM
If Congressman Paul were not a Christian, on what basis could we trust him to uphold his oath of office even when no one is watching?

That's the kind of religious reasoning I have problems with. I heard it quite often. "He is a Christian so we can trust him" (this is not exactly what you said but to be consistent with your comment you must think something like that). We should evaluate people on sound criteria, like their past actions. I remember my mother saying something about Bush being a good Christian (after reading about it in the reader digest...).

DJ RP
12-28-2007, 05:20 PM
Proof? I think such claims are faulty. Concerning the first one: that would be predictable because there are far many more people who consider themselves "Christian" than consider themselves "atheist" or even "agnostic." A similar thing could be said for your second statement, and so I disagree with it. Since Christians greatly outnumber atheists, it would be predictable for them to hold those "advanced college degrees." If your second statement were true, it'd be because there are so many Christians who dilute the percentage.

Nope. the statistics refer to atheists as a percentage. I don't have the stats on hand but basically say 2% of christians are in jail, only 1% of atheists are. If 20% of christians graduate college, 35% of atheists do.

Obviously if it were simply numbers it would be unfair as christians far outweigh atheists in numbers (for some reason).

ronpaul4pres
12-28-2007, 05:34 PM
My friend ... claims that the only reason atheists are backing him is because...

Why are you arguing with your friend about atheists and Ron Paul? I'm not sure if your friend is already a supporter, but if you're trying to make your devout Christian friend a Ron Paul supporter, that's the exact wrong thing to even debate. Another supporter on dailypaul once wrote it was Ron Paul's Statement of Faith that turned him over to Paul. Just refer your friend to that and don't discuss such minutia.

Refer your friend to this: Ron Paul's Statement of Faith (http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/87/statement-of-faith/)

max
12-28-2007, 06:08 PM
your friend is not a true christian...christ himself spent most of his time with tax collectors and hookers, hoping to enlighten them...not to condemn them

from a scientific and common sense point of view, i myself can never understand how someone could be an atheist. ......that being said, i know of atheists who live their lives with honor ....your friend sounds like a typical huckabee voter

phixion
12-28-2007, 06:18 PM
your friend is not a true christian...christ himself spent most of his time with tax collectors and hookers, hoping to enlighten them...not to condemn them

from a scientific and common sense point of view, i myself can never understand how someone could be an atheist. ......that being said, i know of atheists who live their lives with honor ....your friend sounds like a typical huckabee voter

Believing in a deity has nothing to do with science or common sense.

Why pretend you're coming from a point of view as anything but someone who believes in a deity? Don't lie, it's unbecoming of a Christian.

Pete

TheEvilDetector
12-28-2007, 06:22 PM
If you've already tried all the constitutional arguements for seperation of church and state try this.

Is moral action possible in the absence of choice?

Really, ask him this. If one doesn't use drugs or sell thier body because of the threat of police hitting them in the head with a club, they aren't making a moral choice. They are simply reacting out of fear. Only when one has the option to do these things, but doesn't, can it be considered a moral action.

God gave us the ability to make moral actions. The capacity for moral action is what makes human beings unique. If god needed to enforce his laws on earth, he could do so without the government. However, he chooses not too. Since we will ultimately be judged for our actions in the next life perhaps we should allow people to make true moral choices.

Morality is subjective and it is cultural. Your morality may not agree with mine.

Furthermore, atheists do not believe in god (I am an atheist), thus they would disagree that morality comes from God.

What is put into law regarding prohibition of certain acts ie. rape, murder etc is simply a consensus of majority about certain activities.

In my opinion (as an atheist) there is no higher power, all there is is a conscience, guilt, peer pressure, intelligence, culture, sympathy,
empathy, love and fear to keep us in line and to show us what are the appropriate behaviours.

robert4rp08
12-28-2007, 06:54 PM
your friend is not a true christian...christ himself spent most of his time with tax collectors and hookers, hoping to enlighten them...not to condemn them

from a scientific and common sense point of view, i myself can never understand how someone could be an atheist. ......that being said, i know of atheists who live their lives with honor ....your friend sounds like a typical huckabee voter

Hehe, I say the same about Christians.

robert4rp08
12-28-2007, 06:59 PM
That doesn't answer the question.

If Congressman Paul were not a Christian, on what basis could we trust him to uphold his oath of office even when no one is watching - when we would not catch him if he broke it?

What would his slogan be? "Ron Atheist, the right man for the job, just don't turn your back on him?"

Are you saying that only Christians have the morality and good conscience to do what is "right"? That's the most absurd thing I've read today. Christians commit crimes as much as any other human being. Stop being silly.

max
12-28-2007, 07:20 PM
Believing in a deity has nothing to do with science or common sense.

Why pretend you're coming from a point of view as anything but someone who believes in a deity? Don't lie, it's unbecoming of a Christian.

Pete

Denying the self evident existence of an intelligent engineer of the universe and everything in it, is like believeing that a tornado in a junkyard could assemble a high performance sports car.....IT IS ludicrous, absolutely ridiculous...

I'm not saying that the literal biblical interpretation is accurate by any means...but clearly something had to organize and bring to gether the immensely complicated elements of life into being AND incorporate a reproudive capacity at the time of creation...

believing that ocean scum spontaneously became "life"...then sproted fins...then swam ashore...up a tree...and down again is LAUGHABLE

max
12-28-2007, 07:22 PM
Atheists are also far more likely to hold advanced college degrees.


thats merely a result of impressionable students being indoctrinated by atheist professors

MayTheRonBeWithYou
12-28-2007, 07:25 PM
thats merely a result of impressionable students being indoctrinated by atheist professors

Lol. Non-belief in religion also correlates to higher IQs. In other words, the higher your IQ, the less likely you are to be religious. Try to spin that one.

max
12-28-2007, 07:28 PM
Lol. Non-belief in religion also correlates to higher IQs. In other words, the higher your IQ, the less likely you are to be religious. Try to spin that one.

Lots of people with high IQ's think Ron Paul is a crackpot....so, it proves nothing.

Issac Newton, Plato, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Edison....were all deists.

I have yet to hear a plausible explanation for how a piece of ocean scum could form spontaneously and morph in humans over time...

do u have evidence of this????? Dont quote others and dont cite "people with high IQ's"....Give me YOUR explanation of how this happened and what scientific evidence there is for this

hawkeyenick
12-28-2007, 07:29 PM
thats merely a result of impressionable students being indoctrinated by atheist professors

College students impressionable? lol you're what we could call a "helicopter" parent in the residence life business

College students are grown adults, they can think for themselves.

Besides, didn't address how the professors became atheist in the first place. It's called an education.

More education = less likely to be religious, that's a plain fact


Deal with it, most people that call themselves religious in today's age are so simply because of the built-in social network

max
12-28-2007, 07:34 PM
College students impressionable? lol you're what we could call a "helicopter" parent in the residence life business

College students are grown adults, they can think for themselves.

Besides, didn't address how the professors became atheist in the first place. It's called an education.

More education = less likely to be religious, that's a plain fact

"Education".......

Many "educated professors" think the Federal Resrve is necessary and good.

Many "educated professors" think US intervention is necessary and that Woodrow Wilson was a great man.

Many "educated professors" will vote for Hillary.

Many "educated professors" believe in the global warming hoax...

many "educated professors" believe forced redistribution of wealth is good for the economy.


ete ...get the picture?...Try thinking for yourself and explain how this process of amoeba to man actually happened....u cant....because its a sick joke

hawkeyenick
12-28-2007, 07:35 PM
Lots of people with high IQ's think Ron Paul is a crackpot....so, it proves nothing.

Issac Newton, Plato, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Edison....were all deists.

I have yet to hear a plausible explanation for how a piece of ocean scum could form spontaneously and morph in humans over time...

do u have evidence of this????? Dont quote others and dont cite "people with high IQ's"....Give me YOUR explanation of how this happened and what scientific evidence there is for this

Wow, talk about not knowing a damn thing about evolution. For one thing, it doesn't try to explain abiogenesis, there isn't a viable hypothesis for it as of yet because it's so rare that it can't be replicated in a lab.

You really need to read a book, there is no "morphing", no "ocean scum", non of that crap. You also have to realize that it was over such a long span of time that it's practically impossible for a human being to even comprehend.

Once you stop using such generalities and start talking specifics, you'll see where you are in err. Evolution is not a simple theory, despite what your prison buddy Kent Hovind would like to tell you.

hawkeyenick
12-28-2007, 07:37 PM
"Education".......

Many "educated professors" think the Federal Resrve is necessary and good.

Many "educated professors" think US intervention is necessary and that Woodrow Wilson was a great man.

Many "educated professors" will vote for Hillary.

Many "educated professors" believe in the global warming hoax...

many "educated professors" believe forced redistribution of wealth is good for the economy.


ete ...get the picture?...Try thinking for yourself and explain how this process of amoeba to man actually happened....u cant....because its a sick joke

so you're basically spitting on education and closing your eyes to facts. that's expected as it's all religion has left to do any more as the facts are against them. even the pope is a staunch believer in evolution. evolution is fact, the exact method is what is in debate.

TheEvilDetector
12-28-2007, 07:38 PM
so you're basically spitting on education and closing your eyes to facts. that's expected as it's all religion has left to do any more as the facts are against them. even the pope is a staunch believer in evolution. evolution is fact, the exact method is what is in debate.

Evolution is a theory which I think is the most accurate out of all theories out there.

max
12-28-2007, 07:39 PM
Wow, talk about not knowing a damn thing about evolution. For one thing, it doesn't try to explain abiogenesis, there isn't a viable hypothesis for it as of yet because it's so rare that it can't be replicated in a lab.



"No viable hypothesis"....yet you swallow it blindly. Hmmm...who's indoctrinated???


Tell me...how did a single cell ocean creature emerge spontaneously...and then morph into man over time.

Can u show me fossils evidence of some of the MILLIONS of transitional species that existed in between?

No "viable hypothesis"...no transitional species....yet you dogmatically hold to the RELIGION of evolution...

Ironically, Evolutionists are not much different than a literal Genesis fundamentalist...all dogma...no evidence....just psuedoscientic jibberish masquerading as "education"

yongrel
12-28-2007, 07:41 PM
Eh, I'm an atheist irreleventist. I don't have any problem with religion until it steps on my toes, or the toes of society in general. Believe what you want, just don't force your beliefs on me.

And since it was brought up earlier, atheists are very underrepresented in prison.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

Self-identifying Atheists (which is distinct and separate from non-religious) made up 0.209% of the Federal Prison Population. Catholics and Protestants alone accounted for ~74% of the Federal Prison population that year. A much smaller percentage of atheists are in prison that theists, proportional to their total population.

So it would seem that atheists are underrepresented in the Federal Prison system. Deduce from that what you like.

TheEvilDetector
12-28-2007, 07:46 PM
"No viable hypothesis"....yet you swallow it blindly. Hmmm...who's indoctrinated???


Tell me...how did a single cell ocean creature emerge spontaneously...and then morph into man over time.

Can u show me fossils evidence of some of the MILLIONS of transitional species that existed in between?

No "viable hypothesis"...no transitional species....yet you dogmatically hold to the RELIGION of evolution...

Ironically, Evolutionists are not much different than a literal Genesis fundamentalist...all dogma...no evidence....just psuedoscientic jibberish masquerading as "education"

Evidence for theory of evolution is not hidden Max.

See links below for further info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/evolution.html
http://bioweb.cs.earlham.edu/9-12/evolution/HTML/live.html
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evolution
http://www.mcb.harvard.edu/BioLinks/Evolution.html
http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/evolution98
http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/evol.fs.html
http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/biology/evolution
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/fitch/courses/evolution
http://www.lions.odu.edu/~kkilburn/evohome.htm
http://www.cce.umn.edu/conferences/evolution
http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/projects/human
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookEVOLII.html

There are more links than that, but this is a start.

You are welcome to contact these universities and tell them they do not know what they are talking about but they might like to examine your credentials if you do that.

yongrel
12-28-2007, 07:48 PM
Evidence for theory of evolution is not hidden Max

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/evolution.html
http://bioweb.cs.earlham.edu/9-12/evolution/HTML/live.html
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evolution
http://www.mcb.harvard.edu/BioLinks/Evolution.html
http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/evolution98
http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/evol.fs.html
http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/biology/evolution
http://www.nyu.edu/projects/fitch/courses/evolution
http://www.lions.odu.edu/~kkilburn/evohome.htm
http://www.cce.umn.edu/conferences/evolution
http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/projects/human
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookEVOLII.html

There are more links than that, but this is a start.

This

CelestialRender
12-28-2007, 08:19 PM
Speaking philosophically, since atheists, by definition, don't recognize a higher non-human authority, there is no accountability beyond the rule of law for their actions.

Laws that bind me (an Atheist), in order:

1. The laws of Physics. (These bind most people, to my knowledge.)

2. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

3. I swear, by my life, and my love of it, that I will neither live for another man, nor ask another man to live for me.

Between those three, all good actions can be deduced. Just because we don't have an entire book putting down a systematic morality, doesn't mean no Atheist has a morality.

CelestialRender
12-28-2007, 08:29 PM
"No viable hypothesis"....yet you swallow it blindly. Hmmm...who's indoctrinated???


Tell me...how did a single cell ocean creature emerge spontaneously...and then morph into man over time.

Can u show me fossils evidence of some of the MILLIONS of transitional species that existed in between?

No "viable hypothesis"...no transitional species....yet you dogmatically hold to the RELIGION of evolution...

Ironically, Evolutionists are not much different than a literal Genesis fundamentalist...all dogma...no evidence....just psuedoscientic jibberish masquerading as "education"

Explain to me baryon asymmetry, first. And the detailed inner-workings of a quantum gravitational theory, which doesn't contradict the standard model. Oh, and please, include an exact mass of the tau neutrino.

Why is it that demands to solve an entire field of study on a message board sound sillier when you use Physics as the example?

Leave the science to the scientists. I went and read both sides' arguments again two weeks ago to make sure I wasn't just dismissing anti-evolutionism...no, I wasn't. It really is just completely ignorant of the scientific method.

Duckman
12-28-2007, 08:36 PM
My 2c on the "designer" question (wayyyyy offtopic I know)...

I do believe that living things are complex machines, and complex machines typically require a designer.

However, consider this...

I also believe that living things are made out of atoms and molecules, and that if you were able to assemble these molecules into the exact same pattern found in a living thing you could create life. Indeed, I think scientists are close to/currently able to do this on the scale of viruses.

I also believe it is possible, although extremely, extremely unlikely, that on the scale of small organisms such as viruses or simple bacteria, it is possible that the atoms and molecules needed to assemble that form of life could randomly come together given enough time and chances. Indeed, there have been some experiments already conducted showing that amino acids (found in all known forms of life) can be generated by random processes. Creating a virus is a simple as stringing a few hundred of those together in a particular arrangement.

Given the extreme age and vastness of the universe as determined by modern science, I believe it is possible that this could happen by chance, somewhere. I believe that due to the small odds of this occuring, life is probably very rare in the universe.

The fossil record shows that the first forms of life were simple bacteria, which is consistent with this line of thinking. Despite the arguments to the contrary, I believe that the theory of evolution explains extremely well how you get from those simple forms of life to the abundance of life you see today.

rfbz
12-28-2007, 08:38 PM
Unfortunately there are a few obnoxious atheists giving the rest of us a bad name. I'll be the first one to call them out. However, it is ignorant to think that without religion, we have no morality. Let's face it, did you really need someone telling you that raping and killing is wrong to not do it? Despite what a lot of people think, I believe people are inherently good and most know right from wrong without having to be preached to. Also, liberty does NOT mean there are no consequences for your actions.

Hook
12-28-2007, 08:38 PM
Explain to me baryon asymmetry, first. And the detailed inner-workings of a quantum gravitational theory, which doesn't contradict the standard model. Oh, and please, include an exact mass of the tau neutrino.

Why is it that demands to solve an entire field of study on a message board sound sillier when you use Physics as the example?

Leave the science to the scientists. I went and read both sides' arguments again two weeks ago to make sure I wasn't just dismissing anti-evolutionism...no, I wasn't. It really is just completely ignorant of the scientific method.

Are you a physicist?

Eric21ND
12-28-2007, 08:57 PM
thats merely a result of impressionable students being indoctrinated by atheist professors

I never had an atheist professor that announced it to students. I have had several religious teachers actually apologize for teaching Evolution and professed time and time again that they didn't believe it, but had to teach it.

Everyone in the class was like :confused:

Richandler
12-28-2007, 09:12 PM
Random: I sometimes wonder why monkeys know not to hurt family members. I wonder where they get those morals from.... hmmmm.... Same for most other species. I just can't seem to put my finger on it. It could be the fact that it's part of survival, but hmmm, I'm just not convinced of that. . . . .

It just is weird how animal families seem to have much stronger bonds than the huge divorce rates that plague our mostly Christian nation.

Paulitician
12-28-2007, 09:16 PM
Random: I sometimes wonder why monkeys know not to hurt family members. I wonder where they get those morals from.... hmmmm.... Same for most other species. I just can't seem to put my finger on it. It could be the fact that it's part of survival, but hmmm, I'm just not convinced of that. . . . .

It just is weird how animal families seem to have much stronger bonds than the huge divorce rates that plague our mostly Christian nation.
It's proof God exists! Because if God didn't exist, there would be total lawlessness, moral, individual, governmental you name it! Can you disprove me? Of course you can't! Must mean I'm right!















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