Christian Email Project - Help us answer the responses

[ionlyknowy]

Here is a response that I got, can anyone help give a good reply to this.?

Dear XXXX,

You need to read the context for Christ's teachings in the Old Testament. There you will see that when Jesus talks about compassion for the poor He very precisely means that there is a governmental role that includes collecting taxes. In fact the OT mandates an absolute limit on the accumulation of wealth in the Jubilee system and when Jesus chose to read from Isaiah 61 (in Luke 4) at his inaugral synagogue service, he picked the passage that had historically be used to start the Jubilee. An honest exegesis of Scripture simply does not support the libertarian ideology of Ron Paul.

A safety net that is built entirely on voluntary charity failed in the 1927 floods along the Mississippi. When the Depression came in 1929 that failure was fresh in the minds of many Americans and that is why they threw out Hoover, who was a compassionate man with one of the strongest resumes in voluntary humanitarian work of any president in American history. When a national becomes large enough and complex enough, and values freedom and individualism as America does, voluntary charity will no longer cover all the needs. Certainly the voluntary sector needs to be encouraged to do as much as possible. Both Clinton and Bush have worked for that with their Faith-based and Community Initiatives. What has Ron Paul proposed along these lines?

I think you are right, that Mr. Paul is an essentially decent man. He is just woefully out of touch with reality. He comes from a rural mentality that is nearly a century out of date. I don't necessarily like the world in which we live today, but you cannot claim to be really compassionae and ignore the fact that in today's world the government must play a significant role or people will die from lack of health care, starve to death, etc. Band-aids are not a cure, but without band-aids people never get the chance for a cure.

[Mark]

Off of the top of my head -

The Bible says that The Father's will is to care for Widows and Orphans.

It didn't say it was The Father's Will to give money to the Government to do it for us.

The burden is on us - and with less taxes we would have a lot more money to do it.

What? We work about until May/June or so they say to cover all our taxes?

That's almost half of our income going to taxes.

If you suddenly doubled your income - how much more could you give to help the poor? ect

[ionlyknowy]

blimp

[pickfair]

When a national becomes large enough and complex enough, and values freedom and individualism as America does, voluntary charity will no longer cover all the needs.

No, voluntary means is the only way we'll survive. Look at what's happening in this presidential election for instance. Ron Paul has the strongest grassroots support and he's the only one with a message of freedom.


He is just woefully out of touch with reality. He comes from a rural mentality that is nearly a century out of date.

The world is out of touch with reality, not Ron Paul.

[Brennon]

To use the old testament laws as a model for American society is well...a little silly.

Should we put to death a woman that is raped in the city because she simply did not scream loudly enough?

Abortion could not be made illegal.

Can't eat pork.


Context, context, context...

[Ernest]

Christian Email Project

Just because it is called a "Christian Email Project" doesn't mean it's Christian at all. If this person is so concerned about this I suggest they vote for the Christian candidate Mike Huckabee. He will dig into your pockets all you can stand and then some. In addition if this person is truly that concerned they should give every cent they own to the first poor person they see like Clinton and Bush have done being the great Christians they are (funny how the so different Con & Lib are best of friends) and if that is not enough maybe they could get a part time job to donate even more.

[Alan84]

His understanding of scripture assumes that Israel, which was a theocracy, is the model government for a nation. That has so many problems realistically speaking that I don't even know where to begin. But the principle point is that the church is now what israel was. The church is the new israel, not the government. It is the churches responsibility to help the poor, the sick, the widows, and etc. (and of course anyone is free to help another fellow human). And this is precisely the mistake that Huckabee mistakes when he quotes scripture to justify his government policies, when in the real context, it was meant for the church. Now the new Israel isn't limited to walls and a nation. The church is now global. And if this is the way in which he wants to understand scripture, then the church will always be a group of people who just attend church every sunday for a feel good moral lesson that never takes responsibility for the people around them. This is the way it used to be. In the past, who setup all the schools, hospitals, and charities? What happen to our schools and hospitals once government started taking power? How has the welfare state done all these years? When will Christians realize that central economic planning from stolen tax dollars never work?

An honest exegesis of scripture demands libertarianism. As RP says, it is the volunteerism of local individuals, families, friends, churches, and local organizations that will truly help the society around it.

[mavtek]

Wow that guy scares me! Please no Christo theocracy for America please! They say Sharia law is scary, wait till we start doing the stuff they mandated in the old testament.

[dircha]

Here is a response that I got, can anyone help give a good reply to this.?

Dear XXXX,

You need to read the context for Christ's teachings in the Old Testament. There you will see that when Jesus talks about compassion for the poor He very precisely means that there is a governmental role that includes collecting taxes. In fact the OT mandates an absolute limit on the accumulation of wealth in the Jubilee system and when Jesus chose to read from Isaiah 61 (in Luke 4) at his inaugral synagogue service, he picked the passage that had historically be used to start the Jubilee. An honest exegesis of Scripture simply does not support the libertarian ideology of Ron Paul.

A safety net that is built entirely on voluntary charity failed in the 1927 floods along the Mississippi. When the Depression came in 1929 that failure was fresh in the minds of many Americans and that is why they threw out Hoover, who was a compassionate man with one of the strongest resumes in voluntary humanitarian work of any president in American history. When a national becomes large enough and complex enough, and values freedom and individualism as America does, voluntary charity will no longer cover all the needs. Certainly the voluntary sector needs to be encouraged to do as much as possible. Both Clinton and Bush have worked for that with their Faith-based and Community Initiatives. What has Ron Paul proposed along these lines?

I think you are right, that Mr. Paul is an essentially decent man. He is just woefully out of touch with reality. He comes from a rural mentality that is nearly a century out of date. I don't necessarily like the world in which we live today, but you cannot claim to be really compassionae and ignore the fact that in today's world the government must play a significant role or people will die from lack of health care, starve to death, etc. Band-aids are not a cure, but without band-aids people never get the chance for a cure.

Hello friend,

What your correspondent suggests is a secular collectivist perversion of Word of our Lord.

Isaiah 61 does indeed use the imagery of the Year of Jubilee, but here this year is prophetic, not Levitical. Its context is a time when the sun and moon shall cease and the Lord will be our light everlasting (60:20), a context far removed from property holdings.

Indeed, what Christ proclaimed in Luke 4:16-30 was not the Levitical Year of Jubilee of property holdings, but rather the imminent prophetic fulfillment of spiritual deliverance. If Christ's intention was to proclaim a Jubilee of property holdings, then surely his mission was a failure.

The Levitical Year of Jubilee was a historical aspect of God's covenant with the Israelites through Moses at Sinai to be a peculiar treasure to God - a nation of priests - above all people if they keep His word (Ex 9:3-5). There is no evidence of apostolic recognition or endorsement of the Levitical Year of Jubilee in the early church under the new covenant.

What your correspondent suggests is a perversion of Word of our Lord, through Paul, not only for ourselves privately but for civil government also. Indeed, Paul instructs us in the name of Lord Jesus Christ, if a man will not work, he shall not eat (2 Thes 3:6-10).

We are a nation and a people of law, and the Constitution identifies the just authority of the federal government, established of God (Romans 13:1-7). Congressman Paul is running for the federal Constitutional office of President of the United States. By his oath of office and by his duty to God in civil government, the President of the United States must submit to the just authority of the Constitution established of God.

The activities your correspondent prescribes for the federal government are not to be found in the Constitution, and are therefore unlawful. Indeed, for its egregious violations of the justly instituted Constitutional limitations of federal government, our federal government is now lawless. We as a people defy the law of God-established civil government authority at our own peril.

I hope this will be helpful as you speak in our defense.

[iella]

Compassion for the poor is given as a responsibility of the church very directly in James 1:27.

Also, God's relationship with the government of the Jews in the Old Testament is not the same as His relationship with other governments, for the very simple reason that they are His chosen people (and the US is not). Outside of His more intimate interaction with them as a nation, very little is said about secular governments besides obey the earthly authority which has been placed over you, and pray for it. (Very telling is Paul's exhortation to Timothy in I Timothy 2:1-2 to pray for the government to let us live godly lives in peace, which sounds a lot like libertarianism to me!)

One question that I like to ask my fellow Christians which often makes them pause and think is this: why do you expect a secular government to solve the spiritual problems in this country?

I discuss these points in an essay I wrote which is posted at: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=47829

Hope that helps!

[N13]

Divert attention away from that and over to the story of Jesus and the money changers. He had a good reason for becomming violent in the temple on that day. Jesus recognized the same thing that Ron Paul sees in the Federal Reserve. There is no other candidate besides Ron Paul who understands the nature of the injustice and is prepared to take action against it.

Then ask her, if Ron Paul sees this truth, do you think he would take from the needy and poor? Ron Paul will bring about a period of prosperity that hasn't been see in this country for decades if not longer. A nation that powerful can certainly care for all.

What we need to do now is recognize the darkness that surrounds us and vote for Ron Paul. That way you'll see that there is a light, you only need to step out from behind your own shadows to see it. We can save ourselves.

[TurtleBurger]

Have them read 1 Samuel 8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=8&version=9). That chapter of the Bible was personally written by Dr. Paul.

[dircha]

Compassion for the poor is given as a responsibility of the church very directly in James 1:27.

In any event I think we've answered the criticism posed by the original poster, but I'm curious how you see this. Do you think James 1:27 is an exhortation to care for widows and orphans who are brethren - brothers and sisters in the community of believers - or do you think it is an exhortation to care for widows and orphans generally?

[dircha]

Have them read 1 Samuel 8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=8&version=9). That chapter of the Bible was personally written by Dr. Paul.

That is awesomely insightful. :)

That is essentially what many Americans want, isn't it?

The people cried out to Ron Paul, saying, Give us a king, a strong man! We want to be protected! We want to be a powerful nation!

And then Ron Paul warned the people thusly,


11And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.

12And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.

13And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.

14And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.

15And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.

16And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.

17He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.

18And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

20That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.

[ionlyknowy]

Thank you Dircha and iella. I used both of your posts!

Thank you so much, I wasnt sure how to answer that one..:o

[mathamagician]

I think the most important thing to emphasis is that there is no way to guarantee welfare (be it food, health care, shelter) and also guarantee freedom.

If bad goes to worse in the economy what will the government yield on? If people stop paying taxes because they can't afford them will the government disband the republic and institute a martial law dictatorship to ensure everyone gets fed or will it give up the welfare program so as not to enslave the people?

The worst atrocities in the world have come from good people with good intentions empowering fanatical personalities.

Here is an extremely good article but it's very long
http://www.redstate.com/blogs/ghc/2006/dec/10/humanitarian_with_a_guillotine

Next the Jubilee system (hadn't heard of it, and just read about it) is in Leviticus which has tons of old laws which are no longer followed by Christians because Jesus swept them all away.

Additionally being a part of a religion which urges generosity to the poor is not the same has having the government compel it. Having the government force 'generosity' is no different from government forcing other morals onto people which is essentially a Theocracy and we loose economic and religious freedom. If this was Jesus' religion then he would have jailed people who disagreed with him.

Trying to convert people shows a respect for freedom of thought and belief. If Jesus believed in Tithing why didn't he just force everyone to tithe as this guy is suggesting with taxes and social spending?

Regarding the flood:
"A safety net that is built entirely on voluntary charity failed in the 1927 floods"

I say: "A safety net that is built almost entirely on the government failed in the 2005 hurricane Katrina"

Proof:
only 246 people were killed in the 1927 flood and there were 750,000 people displaced. Hurricane Katrina killed 1,836 and only about 450,000 people were displaced.

Conclusions:
-Just because people died in the 1927 doesn't mean the voluntary system didn't work

-Even if the 1927 system wasn't very good there is no reason to think having the government do it would be better

-Evidence shows that actually having the government do this is much much worse seeing that many more people were killed and that our government has near dictatorial power in these situations.

In America no on is dying of starvation because the poorest people are also the most overweight and there are free privately funded soup kitchens everywhere. We only have a 'health care problem' because we have invented so many treatments for diseases. If it was socialized we wouldn't have any of those treatments available.

Finally all government funding helps the rich elite class because they always skim the top 10-25% of all spending. What's left is misappropriated due to inefficient ways central planning systems allocate money.


our Insurance industry is quite capable of handling flood