Dr. Paul should rephrase his foreign policy argument

[trispear]

Often, I see him talk about the middle east and he says our presence motivates Al-Qaeda to attack us and our presence in Saudi Arabia angered Bin Laden and so on and so forth.

I know what he means, but many people hear what he says and think "Why should I care what Al-Qaeda or Bin Laden wants? They attacked us on 9/11, those thugs should be destroyed!"

He should be saying that our presence in the Middle East motivates the PEOPLE of the Middle East to join Al-Qaeda and then attack us. That our presence in Saudi Arabia angered the people enough for them to be motivated into suicide terrorism and that allowed Bin Laden recruit people to further his evil schemes.

Then RP can point out how there was no Al-Qaeda in Iraq before the invasion and how we are motivating the local population into terrorism. A population that had nothing to do with 9/11.

I think it's a subtle difference but the slight rephrasing would play better than how RP says it.

[Oliver]

That Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and that the
US finally received an answer on 9/11, is nothing
new for the whole world.

So why should Ron explain it this way?

[noxagol]

That Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and that the
US finally received an answer on 9/11, is nothing
new for the whole world.

So why should Ron explain it this way?

What guy said shows that what we are doing right now to fight terrorism basically amounts to fighting a fire by spraying gasoline on it.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

Often, I see him talk about the middle east and he says our presence motivates Al-Qaeda to attack us and our presence in Saudi Arabia angered Bin Laden and so on and so forth.

I know what he means, but many people hear what he says and think "Why should I care what Al-Qaeda or Bin Laden wants? They attacked us on 9/11, those thugs should be destroyed!"

He should be saying that our presence in the Middle East motivates the PEOPLE of the Middle East to join Al-Qaeda and then attack us. That our presence in Saudi Arabia angered the people enough for them to be motivated into suicide terrorism and that allowed Bin Laden recruit people to further his evil schemes.

Then RP can point out how there was no Al-Qaeda in Iraq before the invasion and how we are motivating the local population into terrorism. A population that had nothing to do with 9/11.

I think it's a subtle difference but the slight rephrasing would play better than how RP says it.

They also think possession of a Bible is an affront that justifies violence, or cartoons, or teddy bears - you name it. Do you really think they care what excuse they use to hate us???

[Oliver]

They also think possession of a Bible is an affront that justifies violence, or cartoons, or teddy bears - you name it. Do you really think they care what excuse they use to hate us???

"They" are humans just like you. Basically with
pretty much the same genes as well. So it's safe
to say that any aggressive behavior is explainable,
despite fanatism.

Why do you think they hate "U.S."?

[trispear]

That Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and that the
US finally received an answer on 9/11, is nothing
new for the whole world.

So why should Ron explain it this way?

Because the way he says it, it sounds like we should be seeing this from Al-Qaeda's eyes (which will turn a lot of people off)...... when he means the perspective of the people of the Middle East.

[freedom-maniac]

And he should point out that we still haven't caught bin Laden, because Bush thought Iraq was a bigger threat.

[akforme]

We've never caught Bin Laden and never will with Bush because that's our reason for war. He doesn't want this war to end.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

"They" are humans just like you. Basically with
pretty much the same genes as well. So it's safe
to say that any aggressive behavior is explainable,
despite fanatism.

Why do you think they hate "U.S."?

A multitude of reasons, but it is not just the U.S. they hate. They hate all who in their mind are infidels.

Aggressive behavior may be explainable but it is not always justified.

Idiots who try to draw a moral equivalence between us and extremist Islamic terrorists are reprehensible and grossly misinformed.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

It doesn't matter what excuse they use for hating us. The fact is that we don't believe in their religion, so we must not live.

The sooner people realize the fanaticism of these people, the better off we all will be.

[noxagol]

It doesn't matter what excuse they use for hating us. The fact is that we don't believe in their religion, so we must not live.

The sooner people realize the fanaticism of these people, the better off we all will be.

And this is thought by only like 2% of muslims, and the others that say it say it because it is directed at us and they hate us. The same can be said of Christians and any other religion for that matter. You sir, are just a fear and hate mongerer.

[OptionsTrader]

It doesn't matter what excuse they use for hating us. The fact is that we don't believe in their religion, so we must not live.

The sooner people realize the fanaticism of these people, the better off we all will be.

You need some deprogramming. But I am sure you'll come around to rational thinking devoid of fear one day.

[Andrew76]

I think I'm missing something, because this is exactly what Ron Paul says. This was the point of the ENTIRE thing with former CIA officer, Mike Scheuer (sp?). --> that our presence over there has been an angering and motivating factor towards getting new Al Qaeda members all the time. It's a giant recruiting machine and a rallying tool. I agree with Ron Paul's view of foreign policy specifically because he said this, among other things.

[idiom]

The fanatic doctrine is real, but it has to be energised in a person by some intense experience or a prolonged suffering.

A lot of Iraqis who thought Osama was nuts are now thinking maybe Osama knows what he is talking about.

RP could do well to mention letters of Marque more often.

[jabrownie]

Broad over-generalizations tend to miss important elements of the argument.

If you look at Muslims in the middle east, it would be inaccurate to say that they ALL hate us, every last one of them, because we are infidels and leaving won't change anything. Granted some do, and their actions are not justifiable. However, this is not about making excuses for them, it's about trying to stop more from joining them.

Consider this hypothetical.
20% hate us b/c we're infidels period.
60% are in the middle, they just want to raise their families and go on with life.
20% love us b/c they are Kurds, Christians, pro democracy, whatever.

Whether we stay or go, the 20% who hate us b/c we're infidels will continue to hate us no matter what, so the stay or go question is rather moot. Likewise, those who love us probably won't get swayed into the kill us mindset no matter which choice we make.

So, that leaves, what I believe are the bulk of Muslims, those who just want to raise their family unhindered by war, occupying forces, or impositions from outside countries. This group can be swayed depending on what we do. If we piss off this group, then more of them join the kill America organizations, and thus, we have more people willing to strap bombs to their chests.

It's not about making excuses or trying to justify any of the extreme actions, nor is it about ignoring any threat. It is simply a realization that the more people you piss off, the more enemies you have, plain and simple.

[Abegweit]

Idiots who try to draw a moral equivalence between us and extremist Islamic terrorists are reprehensible and grossly misinformed.True. The "Islamists" kill innocents in a misguided attempt to defend their families and homes from invading armies. You (kindly keep me out of it) do it in order to make bigger profits for the military industrial complex. Or, more often, it's just for the wargasm.

[Andrew76]

And I should add, that I do believe fanatical islam is a threat to western civilization, as I believe all fundamentalist religions are a threat to modern civilization. Islam just happens to be the one most motivated at this point. That people *don't* believe this is proof that they don't understand the radical religious mind. It has been wiped clean of rational capability.
Having said that, consider a point that former Chief Inspector of the CIA's Bin Laden Unit, Mike Scheuer, brought up: In the 1980's, Muslim religious leaders tried over and over to motivate their people towards the kind of hate inspired violence and terrorist attacks we see today. It just wouldn't work. Most sane people, whether they admitted it or not, wanted modernity and freedom, not war with the West. Khomeni (sp?) tried again and again to whip up the kind of frenzy that Bin Laden has now so easily been able to do. What's been the difference? It isn't one of personality. The difference has been our continued and ever more violent presense in the middle east. The first gulf war, a decade plus of sanctions that have killed millions of people in Iraq, a flawed and thoroughly transparent foreign policy... go figure why it's easier now to recruit suicide bombers for your cause. When you have a) the capability of fanatical religion to shut down the rational human mind, and b) the motivating factor of violence against those same people - is it not obvious that you've got a recipe for disaster?

[Constitutionally Speaking]

And he should point out that we still haven't caught bin Laden, because Bush thought Iraq was a bigger threat.


And yet following 9-11 he effectively told Wolfowitz to shut up because Iraq wasn't the issue. (see the 9-11 report pages 335 and 336)


Secretary Powell recalled that Wolfowitz—not Rumsfeld—argued that Iraq
was ultimately the source of the terrorist problem and should therefore be
attacked.66 Powell said that Wolfowitz was not able to justify his belief that Iraq
was behind 9/11. “Paul was always of the view that Iraq was a problem that
had to be dealt with,” Powell told us.“And he saw this as one way of using this
event as a way to deal with the Iraq problem.” Powell said that President Bush
did not give Wolfowitz’s argument “much weight.”67

AND


The CENTCOM commander told us he renewed his appeal for further
military planning to respond to Iraqi moves shortly after 9/11, both because
he personally felt that Iraq and al Qaeda might be engaged in some form of
collusion and because he worried that Saddam might take advantage of the
attacks to move against his internal enemies in the northern or southern parts
of Iraq, where the United States was flying regular missions to enforce Iraqi
no-fly zones. Franks said that President Bush again turned down the request.79


And:


On September 20, President Bush met with British Prime Minister Tony
Blair, and the two leaders discussed the global conflict ahead.When Blair asked
about Iraq, the President replied that Iraq was not the immediate problem.
Some members of his administration, he commented, had expressed a different
view, but he was the one responsible for making the decisions.78


http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf#page=352

So the left's meme again turns out to be based on lies.


The reason (one of anyway) that we did not get Bin Laden was simply a matter of terrain and the PC way that the left had us fight.

We were worried about alienating the locals (sound familiar) so we asked them to help us and indeed we acquiesced to the demands that the locals provide the main forces to apprehend him.

Instead of just letting the military do what it does best, we allowed the PC morons to dictate military procedures.

[freedom-maniac]

And yet following 9-11 he specifically told Wolfowitz to shut up because Iraq wasn't the issue. (see the 9-11 report pages 335 and 336) http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf#page=352

The reason (one of anyway) that we did not get Bin Laden was simply a matter of terrain and the PC way that the left had us fight.

We were worried about alienating the locals (sound familiar) so we asked them to help us and indeed we acquiesced to the demands that the locals provide the main forces to apprehend him.

Instead of just letting the military do what it does best, we allowed the PC morons to dictate military procedures.

Great info!

Now we need to publicize this to those who think Paul is soft on terrorism.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

True. The "Islamists" kill innocents in a misguided attempt to defend their families and homes from invading armies. You (kindly keep me out of it) do it in order to make bigger profits for the military industrial complex. Or, more often, it's just for the wargasm.


That is a flat out lie and is despicable. People who spread such nonsense are the ones responsible for any increase in hatred toward us.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

Great info!

Now we need to publicize this to those who think Paul is soft on terrorism.

I don't necessarily think that he is soft on terrorism, but as my post above shows, fighting it with Political Correctness in mind is disasterous. It is my opinion that Dr. Paul's efforts are of a PC nature. He has bought the lie that they hate us because we are over there.

That is not why they hate us. They hate us because we don't believe the same thing they do regarding Allah.

[Adamsa]

That is a flat out lie and is despicable. People who spread such nonsense are the ones responsible for any increase in hatred toward us.

The more involved physically the US is in the Middle East, the more the Middle East will try to become physically involved with or in the US.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

And this is thought by only like 2% of muslims, and the others that say it say it because it is directed at us and they hate us. The same can be said of Christians and any other religion for that matter. You sir, are just a fear and hate mongerer.


Sorry, but 2% of the billions of Muslims is a significant force. The rest who do dislike us (not all -or even a majority do) have fallen victim to the propaganda that the 2% puts out (aided and abetted by the leftists in the West).

The same CANNOT be said of Christians, at least not modern day in any significant numbers.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

The more involved physically the US is in the Middle East, the more the Middle East will try to become physically involved with or in the US.

So we should kick out all Muslims in our country??? I don't think so. Most are very good citizens, and living near Dearborn MI, I can assure you that most Iraqi's wanted Saddam gone.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

The fanatic doctrine is real, but it has to be energised in a person by some intense experience or a prolonged suffering.

A lot of Iraqis who thought Osama was nuts are now thinking maybe Osama knows what he is talking about.

RP could do well to mention letters of Marque more often.


Agreed. (on the letters of Marque).


As for the Iraqis and Bin Laden?? Have you been following the news lately??? They are turning on the terrorists. They are sick of AL-Qaeda and are joining US!!!

[brandon]

//

[noxagol]

I'm going to be the first to say it and call Constitutionally speaking a troll.

[brandon]

So we should kick out all Muslims in our country??? I don't think so. Most are very good citizens, and living near Dearborn MI, I can assure you that most Iraqi's wanted Saddam gone.

ALmost everyone living in America wanted Saddam gone because of the massive propaganda war our government waged on us.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

Broad over-generalizations tend to miss important elements of the argument.

If you look at Muslims in the middle east, it would be inaccurate to say that they ALL hate us, every last one of them, because we are infidels and leaving won't change anything. Granted some do, and their actions are not justifiable. However, this is not about making excuses for them, it's about trying to stop more from joining them.

Consider this hypothetical.
20% hate us b/c we're infidels period.
60% are in the middle, they just want to raise their families and go on with life.
20% love us b/c they are Kurds, Christians, pro democracy, whatever.

Whether we stay or go, the 20% who hate us b/c we're infidels will continue to hate us no matter what, so the stay or go question is rather moot. Likewise, those who love us probably won't get swayed into the kill us mindset no matter which choice we make.

So, that leaves, what I believe are the bulk of Muslims, those who just want to raise their family unhindered by war, occupying forces, or impositions from outside countries. This group can be swayed depending on what we do. If we piss off this group, then more of them join the kill America organizations, and thus, we have more people willing to strap bombs to their chests.

It's not about making excuses or trying to justify any of the extreme actions, nor is it about ignoring any threat. It is simply a realization that the more people you piss off, the more enemies you have, plain and simple.

I can say I agree 100% with this post. But when you break it down, the Iraqi people want us to stay at least until they can govern themselves. After that, most want us to leave, which I agree with wholeheartedly.

So, if we are not despised in Iraq, what is the fuss about??? The 20% (probably less than that) who despise us because we are infidels, are putting out false claims (and exaggerated coverage to the few legitimate transgressions) about what we are doing there. They are helped by the leftists in our own country.

THAT is what is driving any real hatred of us over Iraq.

[hocaltar]

"They" are humans just like you. Basically with
pretty much the same genes as well. So it's safe
to say that any aggressive behavior is explainable,
despite fanatism.

Why do you think they hate "U.S."?

No they aren't. I lived with them for six months, and we are nothing alike. Trust me on this one, I lived with them and I still don't understand the way they think. Which is all the more reason to just buy the damned oil from who is ever king of the hill at the time and leave them alone.

[brandon]

I'm going to be the first to say it and call Constitutionally speaking a troll.

Yea, he doesn't support Paul, that's for sure.

I am not sure if he is pretending to be a supporter or if he is just here for some debate and to learn a few things. If it is the later, I don't mind if he stays.

[Tenbatsu]

I don't necessarily think that he is soft on terrorism, but as my post above shows, fighting it with Political Correctness in mind is disasterous. It is my opinion that Dr. Paul's efforts are of a PC nature. He has bought the lie that they hate us because we are over there.

That is not why they hate us. They hate us because we don't believe the same thing they do regarding Allah.

No, it's not PC, you have yet to see the light, I was saying the exact same thing you are now in May. Until I did a two week in depth review of Middle Eastern politics and history.

The United States has been a destabilizing force in the middle east since the end of World War II. We have overthrown democratically elected governments, covertly and deliberately armed and funded rival factions, and encouraged Islamic fanaticism in an attempt to subvert their governments.

How would you feel if Saudi Arabia built a massive military base in the middle of the United States? Would it piss you off? What if they were exploiting your government by creating an overly wealthy oligarchy while the rest of your country remained poor and unemployed? These people hate us because we are corrupting their governments, occupying them with military bases, and destabilizing their country with our aggressive foreign policy.

We meddle in the internal affairs of Arab nations yet you do not expect blow back? Please look into the history of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Israel since after World War II and you will come to the same realization that I did. There is no need for us to be over there anymore we are only making the situation worse.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

ALmost everyone living in America wanted Saddam gone because of the massive propaganda war our government waged on us.

But the Iraqi's felt the same way.

[Abegweit]

That is a flat out lie and is despicable. People who spread such nonsense are the ones responsible for any increase in hatred toward us.Dood, you're forgetting the party line. They hate us for our freedoms. Don't you remember?

[Tenbatsu]

But the Iraqi's felt the same way.

Regardless if they felt the same way it was not our job to overthrow their Government with American taxpayers dollars.

War was not declared and we went to war on behalf of a U.N. Resolution.

This is unconstituional and not a republican quality, assuming you are a republican.

When Clinton overthrew Milosovich via U.N. Resolution the republicans screamed bloody murder. Or do you not remember that? The United States should not police the world with the U.S. Taxpayers money if the war is not explicitly declared by the Congress.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

Yea, he doesn't support Paul, that's for sure.

I am not sure if he is pretending to be a supporter or if he is just here for some debate and to learn a few things. If it is the later, I don't mind if he stays.


I will support Ron Paul if he wins the nomination.

I agree with most of what he stands for - to a far greater percentage than any other Candidate that I am aware of.

The foreign policy stance he has taken concerns me greatly.


I am here for debate, and I definitely would like to learn more on his policies.

I am however, an unapologetic supporter of the WOT - in concept if not in the way it has been conducted.

We have done many things wrong in it, but to argue against it based on the misinformation I have seen many post (not just here) disturbs me.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

Regardless if they felt the same way it was not our job to overthrow their Government with American taxpayers dollars.

War was not declared and we went to war on behalf of a U.N. Resolution.

This is unconstituional and not a republican quality, assuming you are a republican.

When Clinton overthrew Milosovich via U.N. Resolution the republicans screamed bloody murder. Or do you not remember that? The United States should not police the world with the U.S. Taxpayers money if the war is not explicitly declared by the Congress.


We sought that UN resolution for the PC crowd. (not that it did any good). It was OUR doing.

I agree in principle to congress needing to declare war, and in this case it did. Twice.

[Bossobass]

A multitude of reasons, but it is not just the U.S. they hate. They hate all who in their mind are infidels.

Aggressive behavior may be explainable but it is not always justified.

Idiots who try to draw a moral equivalence between us and extremist Islamic terrorists are reprehensible and grossly misinformed.

Try this:

A multitude of reasons, but it is not just Al Qaeda they hate. The US government hates all who in their mind aren't amenable to US Corporations monopolizing their country's economies and natural resources.

Idiots who try to draw a moral equivalence between Exxon and the rest of the world's Sovereign nations' peoples who possess natural resources are reprehensible and grossly misinformed.

Propaganda's a bitch.

Exxon's revenues are larger than the entire GDP of Iraq and Iran combined. But hey, it's probably because they're the most competitive (and moral and holy) oil company, and Arabs are just too stupid (and immoral and unholy) to refine and distribute their crude, eh?

Bosso

[Constitutionally Speaking]

Dood, you're forgetting the party line. They hate us for our freedoms. Don't you remember?

I don't follow many party lines.

As for why they hate us?

That is amongst the reasons, although it misses a WHOLE lot.

They do not want our culture of permissiveness to "infect" their culture. (using their words). They fear that.

It is part of the reason, but wholly inadequate to describe their hate.

[LibertyEagle]

Often, I see him talk about the middle east and he says our presence motivates Al-Qaeda to attack us and our presence in Saudi Arabia angered Bin Laden and so on and so forth.

I know what he means, but many people hear what he says and think "Why should I care what Al-Qaeda or Bin Laden wants? They attacked us on 9/11, those thugs should be destroyed!"

He should be saying that our presence in the Middle East motivates the PEOPLE of the Middle East to join Al-Qaeda and then attack us. That our presence in Saudi Arabia angered the people enough for them to be motivated into suicide terrorism and that allowed Bin Laden recruit people to further his evil schemes.

Then RP can point out how there was no Al-Qaeda in Iraq before the invasion and how we are motivating the local population into terrorism. A population that had nothing to do with 9/11.

I think it's a subtle difference but the slight rephrasing would play better than how RP says it.

I actually think this is a good idea.

[DaneKirk]

Yea, he doesn't support Paul, that's for sure.

I am not sure if he is pretending to be a supporter or if he is just here for some debate and to learn a few things. If it is the later, I don't mind if he stays.

Ah, I support Ron and have similar views as Constitutionally Speaking.... Just because people like us that are a little more main stream and don't completely buy into what Ron says about some things does not make us trolls.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

Try this:

A multitude of reasons, but it is not just Al Qaeda they hate. The US government hates all who in their mind aren't amenable to US Corporations monopolizing their country's economies and natural resources.

Idiots who try to draw a moral equivalence between Exxon and the rest of the world's Sovereign nations' peoples who possess natural resources are reprehensible and grossly misinformed.

Propaganda's a bitch.

Exxon's revenues are larger than the entire GDP of Iraq and Iran combined. But hey, it's probably because they're the most competitive (and moral and holy) oil company, and Arabs are just too stupid (and immoral and unholy) to refine and distribute their crude, eh?

Bosso

Propaganda is a bitch, but your attempt falls short in that it mis-characterize the US government. It also plays well in to the terrorists hands.

We are not over there for the benefit of EXXON or any other corporation. We are involved in the Middle East mainly because at least as of this moment, we need the oil. Of course we could develop our own resources, but the leftists here won't let us.

It is nothing but a weak attempt at drawing a moral equivalence between us and them where NONE exists. It is disgusting.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

Ah, I support Ron and have similar views as Constitutionally Speaking.... Just because people like us that are a little more main stream and don't completely buy into what Ron says about some things does not make us trolls.


Thank you.

As I said earlier, I agree with ALMOST everything Ron Paul stands for. I happen to have picked the area where I disagree to discuss things, because the amen chorus we would be having in the other areas of policy would not contribute to me learning anything and it would be boring.

[brandon]

I will support Ron Paul if he wins the nomination.

I agree with most of what he stands for - to a far greater percentage than any other Candidate that I am aware of.

The foreign policy stance he has taken concerns me greatly.


I am here for debate, and I definitely would like to learn more on his policies.

I am however, an unapologetic supporter of the WOT - in concept if not in the way it has been conducted.

We have done many things wrong in it, but to argue against it based on the misinformation I have seen many post (not just here) disturbs me.


Ok sounds good. We could use some debate around here, to many people agreeing.

I am an unapologetic critic of the WOT, as are many here. I hope you have thick skin!

[Tenbatsu]

We sought that UN resolution for the PC crowd. (not that it did any good). It was OUR doing.

I agree in principle to congress needing to declare war, and in this case it did. Twice.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul57.html (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul57.html)

[Constitutionally Speaking]

No, it's not PC, you have yet to see the light, I was saying the exact same thing you are now in May. Until I did a two week in depth review of Middle Eastern politics and history.

The United States has been a destabilizing force in the middle east since the end of World War II. We have overthrown democratically elected governments, covertly and deliberately armed and funded rival factions, and encouraged Islamic fanaticism in an attempt to subvert their governments.

How would you feel if Saudi Arabia built a massive military base in the middle of the United States? Would it piss you off? What if they were exploiting your government by creating an overly wealthy oligarchy while the rest of your country remained poor and unemployed? These people hate us because we are corrupting their governments, occupying them with military bases, and destabilizing their country with our aggressive foreign policy.

We meddle in the internal affairs of Arab nations yet you do not expect blow back? Please look into the history of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Israel since after World War II and you will come to the same realization that I did. There is no need for us to be over there anymore we are only making the situation worse.

Anything we have done over there was a response to the Soviets doing it first. Yes, there are some repercussions from that, but the immediate concern was Soviet dominance of our fuel supply.

We still are dependent on that fuel supply and until we develop our own resources and alternatives, we will need to be there.

Unfortunate, but still a fact. The rise of Islamic radicalism is another reason we need to be there - although not as obviously as we are now.

As for our involvement, we took a stand against the Soviet Union by allying ourselves with anti-Soviets in the area, just as we took a principled stand against Hitler by allying ourselves with Stalin.

[Tenbatsu]

No, the soviets were not in Iran, and were not in Iraq or Israel. They were in Afghanistan but blaming our bad policy on the Soviets is not going to work.

13% of our fuel came from the middle east prior to the Iraq war, I would not call this dependence. I call this greed, the corporations wanted more oil and more profits they are a beast that will never be satiated. And they will continue to corrupt foreign governments with our money and at the expense of our country's reputation.

[AdoubleR]

They also think possession of a Bible is an affront that justifies violence, or cartoons, or teddy bears - you name it. Do you really think they care what excuse they use to hate us???

I sincerely feel sorry for you if this is what you truly beleive... You have got to be the first person I met on this forum with an IQ the same as their age... Having travelled extensively throughout their region I can tell you why they hate you... Because the US government fucks up their lives and too many Americans are as stupid as you are and can't see that their government is corrupt to the core...

[Constitutionally Speaking]

Ok sounds good. We could use some debate around here, to many people agreeing.

I am an unapologetic critic of the WOT, as are many here. I hope you have thick skin!

I do, and indeed have gained enough respect on liberal forums to moderate one as well as my position as a moderator on a conservative forum.

[AdoubleR]

Anything we have done over there was a response to the Soviets doing it first. Yes, there are some repercussions from that, but the immediate concern was Soviet dominance of our fuel supply.

We still are dependent on that fuel supply and until we develop our own resources and alternatives, we will need to be there.

Unfortunate, but still a fact. The rise of Islamic radicalism is another reason we need to be there - although not as obviously as we are now.

As for our involvement, we took a stand against the Soviet Union by allying ourselves with anti-Soviets in the area, just as we took a principled stand against Hitler by allying ourselves with Stalin.


The next time I'm hungry and there's no food in my fridge, I'm gonna help myself to your fridge... That seems to be your logic... I after reading some more of your comments I realise there is no need to argue with you because you've only recently been weened off of FAUX news...

[Constitutionally Speaking]

I sincerely feel sorry for you if this is what you truly beleive... You have got to be the first person I met on this forum with an IQ the same as their age... Having travelled extensively throughout their region I can tell you why they hate you... Because the US government fucks up their lives and too many Americans are as stupid as you are and can't see that their government is corrupt to the core...


Of course they learn that line of crap from the terrorists and the leftists. :mad:

I too have traveled. I have contact almost DAILY with an Iraqi, (he is one of my best friends and former business partner) and nearly as often with a whole lot of Middle Easterners.

[DaneKirk]

I don't follow many party lines.

As for why they hate us?

That is amongst the reasons, although it misses a WHOLE lot.

They do not want our culture of permissiveness to "infect" their culture. (using their words). They fear that.

It is part of the reason, but wholly inadequate to describe their hate.

Actually you are right. The Muslim author who is credited for starting the whole radical movement in the 20th century wrote mostly about our empty and unethical culture and how the Muslim world could not let it infect their's.

I can not remember his name but it was on CNN one time on their "God's Warriors" special I think. I wish I could remember more, but that became the foundation of the radical movements hate. The author’s words had a lot of influence on Bin Laden and the Egyptian who is his #2. People say they hate us only because we are "over there" are incorrect, there is much more too it and not acknowledging that fact means you really don't know what you are talking about. They hate us for a multitude of reasons, some of our doing and some their doing. There is no easy way out of this mess.

[brandon]

We still are dependent on that fuel supply and until we develop our own resources and alternatives, we will need to be there.


We have our own fuel supply, we just are not using it. We can start drilling in ANWR and create more off-shore drilling platforms.

We also must stop subsidizing the oil industry. If we create an equal playing field for new energy sources to compete, the oil in ANWR would be enough to hold us over in the meantime.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul57.html (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul57.html)


I cannot disagree with the concerns but we did indeed seek and pass the modern day "declaration of war".

I would have preferred it this way also but what we did could very well be considered a letter of Marque.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

We have our own fuel supply, we just are not using it. We can start drilling in ANWR and create more off-shore drilling platforms.

We also must stop subsidizing the oil industry. If we create an equal playing field for new energy sources to compete, the oil in ANWR would be enough to hold us over in the meantime.

Agreed 100%.

[AdoubleR]

Sorry, but 2% of the billions of Muslims is a significant force. The rest who do dislike us (not all -or even a majority do) have fallen victim to the propaganda that the 2% puts out (aided and abetted by the leftists in the West).

The same CANNOT be said of Christians, at least not modern day in any significant numbers.

Let me tell you a story... I am a Canadian who had love for America my whole life... I mean, why not, it's such a great country... (I came to America @ 14 months and moved to Canada a lot later)...

I went to New York a week before 9-11 and enjoyed my stay as always... The mistake I made was going there a week after 9-11... Because I have a Muslim last name, I was harassed and given heart ache on every conceiveable part of my journey... Matter of fact, for someone who used to spend half his time in the US, I swore never to return and indeed haven't been there ever since... The reason is very simple:

You guys can't seem to seperate between fanatics who listen to a stupid idiot that the US government funded and created, and those that just want to remain Muslim and live peacefully with the rest of mankind.

If there are people who hate Muslims for reasons other then political, then please, stop using your government to meet your petty means... I think the US was meant for all religions and no religions... Liberty for all, regardless of faith... Why has that dream been left behind???

[Constitutionally Speaking]

Actually you are right. The Muslim author who is credited for starting the whole radical movement in the 20th century wrote mostly about our empty and unethical culture and how the Muslim world could not let it infect their's.

I can not remember his name but it was on CNN one time on their "God's Warriors" special I think. I wish I could remember more, but that became the foundation of the radical movements hate. The author’s words had a lot of influence on Bin Laden and the Egyptian who is his #2. People say they hate us only because we are "over there" are incorrect, there is much more too it and not acknowledging that fact means you really don't know what you are talking about. They hate us for a multitude of reasons, some of our doing and some their doing. There is no easy way out of this mess.

Exactly.

The whole reason they hate us because we are "over there" is based on the fact that we, in their minds are infidels.

They have little issue when Islamic countries do the same things.

[Tenbatsu]

Anything we have done over there was a response to the Soviets doing it first. Yes, there are some repercussions from that, but the immediate concern was Soviet dominance of our fuel supply.

We still are dependent on that fuel supply and until we develop our own resources and alternatives, we will need to be there.

Unfortunate, but still a fact. The rise of Islamic radicalism is another reason we need to be there - although not as obviously as we are now.

As for our involvement, we took a stand against the Soviet Union by allying ourselves with anti-Soviets in the area, just as we took a principled stand against Hitler by allying ourselves with Stalin.

Islamic radicalism has been fueled by us being there. By our funding and arming of Israel and our pompous nature of telling other countries what they can and cannot do with their money and technology. We are attempting to micro manage the world and it's getting too expensive and too costly. Not to mention it is an ultimately impossible and futile mission.

Would you want China telling us that we cannot build nuclear reactors in our country or that our nuclear weapons are a threat to their national security? What if they sent the IAEA into our country to document our current nuclear fuel production, nuclear weapons production, and ensuring we do not make fuel that could be used in nuclear weapons? What if China built a base here because they wanted to ensure that we did not exploit nuclear technology any further?

You have to take things into perspective. Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you. It's that simple.

[AdoubleR]

Of course they learn that line of crap from the terrorists and the leftists. :mad:

I too have traveled. I have contact almost DAILY with an Iraqi, (he is one of my best friends and former business partner) and nearly as often with a whole lot of Middle Easterners.

Lemme guess... His name is Ahmed Chalabi right??? LOL...

[Tenbatsu]

I cannot disagree with the concerns but we did indeed seek and pass the modern day "declaration of war".

I would have preferred it this way also but what we did could very well be considered a letter of Marque.

Modern day declaration of war is never ending perpetual war that will not stop until our country is bankrupt. These wars do nothing to help our national security and only fuels our enemy's propaganda machine.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

Let me tell you a story... I am a Canadian who had love for America my whole life... I mean, why not, it's such a great country... (I came to America @ 14 months and moved to Canada a lot later)...

I went to New York a week before 9-11 and enjoyed my stay as always... The mistake I made was going there a week after 9-11... Because I have a Muslim last name, I was harassed and given heart ache on every conceiveable part of my journey... Matter of fact, for someone who used to spend half his time in the US, I swore never to return and indeed haven't been there ever since... The reason is very simple:

You guys can't seem to seperate between fanatics who listen to a stupid idiot that the US government funded and created, and those that just want to remain Muslim and live peacefully with the rest of mankind.

If there are people who hate Muslims for reasons other then political, then please, stop using your government to meet your petty means... I think the US was meant for all religions and no religions... Liberty for all, regardless of faith... Why has that dream been left behind???

You did indeed come here at a very emotional time. I am sorry you were treated in a poor fashion.

Our government was meant for non interference in religious matters and that spirit is alive and well. Some individual citizens, however, took it upon themselves to express their outrage in a VERY inappropriate manner.

[AdoubleR]

Actually you are right. The Muslim author who is credited for starting the whole radical movement in the 20th century wrote mostly about our empty and unethical culture and how the Muslim world could not let it infect their's.

I can not remember his name but it was on CNN one time on their "God's Warriors" special I think. I wish I could remember more, but that became the foundation of the radical movements hate. The author’s words had a lot of influence on Bin Laden and the Egyptian who is his #2. People say they hate us only because we are "over there" are incorrect, there is much more too it and not acknowledging that fact means you really don't know what you are talking about. They hate us for a multitude of reasons, some of our doing and some their doing. There is no easy way out of this mess.

I think you're taking about Sayed Qutb, and he is as much of an idiot as any muslim who thinks terrorism is alright... I am a muslim and I will kill any terrorist on sight... My only concern is why is the Western approach to keep fueling the fire... I already try to spread the message of peace to disgruntled youth... It takes two to tango, and all I'm trying to say is that if the US wants to claim the moral high ground (which it should), why don't they act accordingly and stop fucking with innocent people's lives to help their buddies make a quick profit?

[Constitutionally Speaking]

Lemme guess... His name is Ahmed Chalabi right??? LOL...


LOL!!!


No. :D

[Constitutionally Speaking]

to help theyir buddies make a quick profit?


I think that is where we have our main disagreement. We are NOT there to have our buddies make a profit.

We are there because we acted on a perceived threat to our national security.

[DaneKirk]

I sincerely feel sorry for you if this is what you truly beleive... You have got to be the first person I met on this forum with an IQ the same as their age... Having travelled extensively throughout their region I can tell you why they hate you... Because the US government fucks up their lives and too many Americans are as stupid as you are and can't see that their government is corrupt to the core...

I have a hard time believing that everything is always OUR fault. And quite frankly being deployed to this region now I couldn't really care less what these people think. Maybe the Arabs should stop blaming us for all their problems and look to their own corrupt governments who make us look like angles.

No matter what there is always someone who thinks everything is our fault and can not see that in fact it is much more complicated than that...

[Constitutionally Speaking]

Guys, I gotta go.

I hope that we can continue this at a later time.

(ADMIN) If voicing opposition to specific policies is not a good thing here, please let me know and I will cease. I do hope that I can continue on for intelligent discussion of opposing views - it does seem that it is possible here. Thank you.

[Bossobass]

Propaganda is a bitch, but your attempt falls short in that it mis-characterize the US government. It also plays well in to the terrorists hands.

We are not over there for the benefit of EXXON or any other corporation. We are involved in the Middle East mainly because at least as of this moment, we need the oil. Of course we could develop our own resources, but the leftists here won't let us.

It is nothing but a weak attempt at drawing a moral equivalence between us and them where NONE exists. It is disgusting.

You're the one who brings up 'moral equivalence', not me. I have no idea what the morality of 'us' vs 'them' is. I'm not the morality police, but if I were, I would probably be looking at our newest most favored trading partner, Communist China.

We are POSITIVELY over there for the direct benefit of Exxon, or do you have some new evidence of WMD and a massive terrorist base in Saddam's Iraq?

'We' don't need the oil, 'we' WANT the oil...for profit.


The H2 has led the luxury-utility segment in sales since last summer; many dealers have months-long waiting lists of drivers eager to pay an average of $53,000 for them.

Are these vehicles safe? How much are they fouling the air? Are they making us more dependent on oil pumped in places where people burn U.S. flags before breakfast? Is it fair for the government to subsidize them with tax breaks and regulatory loopholes?

ME politics have ALWAYS been about oil. Please don't attempt to convince me otherwise. It's not a very thoughtful position.

Bosso

[AdoubleR]

LOL!!!


No. :D

Allow me to apologise for my personal attack. I must admit I became a little livid at the first comment of yours I read in the thread... I really want to gain a thorough understanding of what can make someone PRO-WAR... First I need to understand if you are aware of a few things:

1) That the US actively meddles in other governments to create economically friendly relationships with those governments that thereby overide their sovereignity.

2) That 99.99% of the Muslim world looks to the United States (ironically) as a beacon of liberty, freedom, and free speech.

3) That the Muslim world would have different people in power if they could, but they can't because the US has chosen its friends, and a friend of the US is very hard to remove from government.

4) Terorrism only came about as the Imperial powers started to meddle with other countries... It's more a stupid and retarded act of desperation then an act of aggression...

5) There is no reason to hate someone for being free! The only reason to hate someone is if THEY TAKE YOUR FREEDOM away from you!

[DaneKirk]

I think you're taking about Sayed Qutb, and he is as much of an idiot as any muslim who thinks terrorism is alright... I am a muslim and I will kill any terrorist on sight... My only concern is why is the Western approach to keep fueling the fire... I already try to spread the message of peace to disgruntled youth... It takes two to tango, and all I'm trying to say is that if the US wants to claim the moral high ground (which it should), why don't they act accordingly and stop fucking with innocent people's lives to help their buddies make a quick profit?

You know what, I agree 100%. And yes that is the guy I was talking about thank you for pointing that out. My main point is that this whole problem is not just our fault, we have messed things up for ourselves and some in the middle east, but I will never go as far as to say that a large number of sub-human scum that think killing infidels is noble deserves no blame either. I think that they are just as responsible. If we back off and the mainstream Muslims can marginalize those radicals that would be great. I hope I live to see that happen, as well as Ron getting elected and saving our economy.

[Tenbatsu]

I think that is where we have our main disagreement. We are NOT there to have our buddies make a profit.

We are there because we acted on a perceived threat to our national security.

But our buddies have made a profit. But that's not the worst if it. We protect their methods to make our profit with U.S. soldiers and many have died doing so. The only ones making a profit in Iraq are the oil suppliers. That is irrefutable.

You are right on one thing, we were there due to a "perceived threat". Whether that threat actually existed didn't really matter to the Bush Administration.

If you remember the foxnews propaganda that they had leading up to the war.

Iraq attacking via Mexico through the use of radio controlled drones dropping chemical weapons in Texas? Do you not remember this garbage? Does it not make you sick to your stomach that they would play the American people's emotions like that?

Keeping the people in a perpetual state of fear is the only way this war can go on.

Whether it's the islamo-fascist threat or the apocalyptic spread of jihad around the world. They want to keep you afraid so they can keep stealing your tax dollars and using it to fund those that wish us harm.

I do not care how you phrase it this war is garbage. For our economy, for our soldiers, for our future. Nothing good will come out of the Iraq War.

[AdoubleR]

I have a hard time believing that everything is always OUR fault. And quite frankly being deployed to this region now I couldn't really care less what these people think. Maybe the Arabs should stop blaming us for all their problems and look to their own corrupt governments who make us look like angles.

No matter what there is always someone who thinks everything is our fault and can not see that in fact it is much more complicated than that...

It is not a matter of thinking who's fault it is, it's just a matter of acknowledging guilt...

I applaud your being stationed there... If I was in your shoes though, I would've joined the Mercenaries at blackwater and made more money for doing pretty much the same thing... Protecting Halliburton/Kellog etc convoys...

No everything is not your fault, because you only vote these clowns in... The problem is America is trying to be a Jack of All Trades and ends up being an ASS at everything... For such a great country to make stupid mistakes is unbeleiveable... The rest of the world takes you as an example.

The good news? In 2008 we will swear in President Paul and the whole world can return to peaceful dialogue...

[Tenbatsu]

It is not a matter of thinking who's fault it is, it's just a matter of acknowledging guilt...

I applaud your being stationed there... If I was in your shoes though, I would've joined the Mercenaries at blackwater and made more money for doing pretty much the same thing... Protecting Halliburton/Kellog etc convoys...

No everything is not your fault, because you only vote these clowns in... The problem is America is trying to be a Jack of All Trades and ends up being an ASS at everything... For such a great country to make stupid mistakes is unbeleiveable... The rest of the world takes you as an example.

The good news? In 2008 we will swear in President Paul and the whole world can return to peaceful dialogue...

It's exactly as Paul said on Meet The Press. Is it the snake's fault for biting because you jumped into a snake pit? Or is it your fault for jumping into the snake's pit?

[Tenbatsu]

I cannot disagree with the concerns but we did indeed seek and pass the modern day "declaration of war".

I would have preferred it this way also but what we did could very well be considered a letter of Marque.

A letter of marque is for small war-like excursions outside of the territory of the U.S. that are retaliatory in nature. This was not small, nor was it in retaliation. It was an outright invasion of a sovereign nation that had not provoked our country. They were not a threat to our national security and the intelligence gathered was clearly biased and dated.

An official declaration of war was required by Congress for this situation and they did not do it. If war had been declared the troops would have been coming home upon the whole "Mission Accomplished" fiasco.

[Tenbatsu]

Ok I'm finished.

Constitutionally Speaking, buy and read Ron Paul's a Foreign Policy of Freedom.

It's basically a complete account of our ridiculous foreign policy since 1976. It will utterly astound you.

If you want to debate further PM me. Thanks.

[Abegweit]

I don't follow many party lines.

As for why they hate us?

That is amongst the reasons, although it misses a WHOLE lot.

They do not want our culture of permissiveness to "infect" their culture. (using their words). They fear that.

It is part of the reason, but wholly inadequate to describe their hate.True. It is inadequate. I think that your first explanation was better. They hate you because people point out the utter evil and depravity of American foreign policy. Although I suspect that they hate you more for the death raining from the skies than for people talking about it. Just a thought.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

True. It is inadequate. I think that your first explanation was better. They hate you because people point out the utter evil and depravity of American foreign policy. Although I suspect that they hate you more for the death raining from the skies than for people talking about it. Just a thought.

You should have liked my first explanation better, it was more complete. This was added on in response to a specific post ridiculing the "they hate us for our freedom" line of thinking. As I HOPED I explained, they DO, but it is not the only reason and as such, it was inadequate.

The whole "raining death from the skies" explanation I take issue with. In speaking with Iraqi's, they are GLAD we deposed Saddam. Sure they want us out of their country, but most do NOT want us out right away. They understand that we NEED to be there right now.

[Constitutionally Speaking]

Ok I'm finished.

Constitutionally Speaking, buy and read Ron Paul's a Foreign Policy of Freedom.

It's basically a complete account of our ridiculous foreign policy since 1976. It will utterly astound you.

If you want to debate further PM me. Thanks.

We have had a lot of ridiculous foreign policies, and they go back WAY before 1976.

I am familiar with a lot of them.

I WILL pick up that book, as I am sure that there are some things I am unaware of and learning is never a bad thing.

[webber53]

And this is thought by only like 2% of muslims, and the others that say it say it because it is directed at us and they hate us. The same can be said of Christians and any other religion for that matter. You sir, are just a fear and hate mongerer.

According to Wikipedia there are currently 1.5 billion Muslims in the world today.
Would you care to do the math and tell us all how much 2% of 1.5 billion is?

I believe it is somewhere around 3 million. "by only 2%"

That it a significant number of militant muslims!

Can you please also quote me the statistics of current
Christian terrorists in the world today or any other
religion for that fact?

[webber53]

Let me tell you a story... I am a Canadian who had love for America my whole life... I mean, why not, it's such a great country... (I came to America @ 14 months and moved to Canada a lot later)...

I went to New York a week before 9-11 and enjoyed my stay as always... The mistake I made was going there a week after 9-11... Because I have a Muslim last name, I was harassed and given heart ache on every conceiveable part of my journey... Matter of fact, for someone who used to spend half his time in the US, I swore never to return and indeed haven't been there ever since... The reason is very simple:

You guys can't seem to seperate between fanatics who listen to a stupid idiot that the US government funded and created, and those that just want to remain Muslim and live peacefully with the rest of mankind.

If there are people who hate Muslims for reasons other then political, then please, stop using your government to meet your petty means... I think the US was meant for all religions and no religions... Liberty for all, regardless of faith... Why has that dream been left behind???

I read your frustration and hope the best for you in the future. On the other hand,
I am sure that many Japanese Americans felt the same way when they were put into
internment camps during WWII. The vast majority stayed here after the war and overcame
their hatred and distrust of the United States and have made it a far better melting pot of
humanity for doing so. Just think about it.