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View Full Version : ? for the Christians who believe in end times, antichrist, etc.




RonPaulFever
12-26-2007, 02:05 AM
Biblically speaking, what role would a Ron Paul play in the end times scenario?

kushaze
12-26-2007, 02:23 AM
I guess it depends on how they interpret their apocalyptic beliefs.

Perry
12-26-2007, 02:25 AM
Biblically speaking, what role would a Ron Paul play in the end times scenario?

If anything he would, at least for a time, prolong the U.S. from being one of the nations to stand against Israel in the last days. With the roadmap and it's revived efforts as of late, this is the route we are currently on.
Remember however that "ALL NATIONS" will eventually stand against Israel in the last days.

Alex Libman
12-26-2007, 02:33 AM
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=13718.0


[Ron Paul] was conceived exactly one billion minutes after the resurrection of Christ, and born 666 weeks (inclusively) before the prophecy of the Jews returning to Israel was fulfilled! The pieces have been slowly moving into place since then, and now he's the only person who could withdraw America's military support for Israel, thus triggering Israel's prophesied collapse and beginning of the End Times!

This is how you win South Carolina, people! ;)

Perry
12-26-2007, 02:51 AM
http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=13718.0



This is how you win South Carolina, people! ;)

Disgusting.

shasshas
12-26-2007, 02:52 AM
he would be like noah leadin ghis flock to a new ark

Ron Paul would build a spacecraft to ensure humanity's survival

all the other candidates would just bicker and try to save themselves

idiom
12-26-2007, 02:56 AM
according to any non-american end times theologian, America doesn't feature in Armageddon. Either everybody is 'raptured' first (good) or everybody is dead or something due to a prior event removing the US from the World stage.

A lot of American theologians take this view as well. However those making movies need America to be involved, and others confuse America with Iarael due to super-patriotism. Same way they confuse the Flag with God.

wildflower
12-26-2007, 03:04 AM
Interesting question.

I don't know, but he could be someone who at least for a time stops or delays the agenda of the globalists.

But as a christian, I believe what the bible says... it's coming eventually, and it's going to be really difficult, especially for believers. But as I just mentioned on another thread, there is hope. That is the one thing that gives me peace about the whole scenario. There is a power greater than the temporary powers of this world. And the true power WILL win, ultimately.

B9vot3r
12-26-2007, 04:20 AM
this seems a bit silly.

Some of you are saying that RP will delay the inevitable, which would insinuate that human actions do have consequences that may subtly alter either the timing or nature of the biblical end times.

Yet you also say that it is irrefutable, in your belief, that it is bound to happen (and reading the book of revelations one gets the feeling that not only is man oblivious to the hour, but nor shall he be able to alter the hour), which then contradicts the notion that any human action can escape this course of the apocalypse and the second coming.

so we have this paradox that RP might in some way alter this prophecy, which coincidentally by definition of a prophecy, requires a precise line of events falling into place which concludes to some cataclysmic event or struggle for all of mandkind/civilization/whatever.

So if you do believe that the revelation is an accurate and irrefutable account of what is to come in the unforeseen future at an undetermined time, then there is little point of speculation other than that of intrigue :)

eloquensanity
12-26-2007, 08:16 AM
according to any non-american end times theologian, America doesn't feature in Armageddon. Either everybody is 'raptured' first (good) or everybody is dead or something due to a prior event removing the US from the World stage.

A lot of American theologians take this view as well. However those making movies need America to be involved, and others confuse America with Iarael due to super-patriotism. Same way they confuse the Flag with God.

America is not mentioned in revelation unless its mystery Babylon. It could be just that its not a major player in Armageddon as other countries are named.

Maybe the economy will collapse and we will no longer be a super power.
Maybe Ron Paul will withdraw us from all the global stuff. I think a lot of prophecy is talking about the deception that comes upon the whole world except for a few and when it talks about death it is meaning spiritual death not so much death of the flesh.

Who knows for sure till it happens. All we know for sure is that at the end of the book we (God's people who stand against the antichrist one world government) win so we do have hope.

SovereignMN
12-26-2007, 08:40 AM
The question and responses assume that we are living in the end times. I know most Christians seem to think that way. I'm a bit more skeptical though. Jesus said that even HE didn't know the Father's schedule. Who am I to think that I have any more insight than Jesus.

I'm content to let God deal with the end times.

GeorgiaRPFan
12-26-2007, 09:04 AM
Christians have been living in the end times since the resurrection of Christ. But I guess by end times you're referring to the "end of the world as we know it" , I think Ron Paul would do a good job of keeping America from becoming a part of the emerging world government led by the antichrist by keeping us out of the NAU. Perhaps Americans would not be subject to the mark of the beast, whatever it is - the "mark" that someday all will need to have to buy or sell - by getting rid of the Fed, and doing away with our economic slavery aka income tax.

eloquensanity
12-26-2007, 09:10 AM
Jesus said no one knows the hour only the father but that we should know the season. He then told us to learn the parable of the fig tree.

When the fig tree is planted in Jerusalem i.e the Jews return to Jerusalem it states This generation will not pass until all is fulfilled

Jesus was answering the question that the disciples asked about how we will know the end times. He went down the list of wars rumours of wars, pestilences, earthquakes etc He then said to learn the parable

Matthew 24:32
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Read the whole of Matthew 24

Edited to add, For none believers please note that the Mayan calendar ends in 2012 There is lots of info on this even you tubes, maybe doesn't mean a thing but it is interesting that all these things are coming together at the same time.

allyinoh
12-26-2007, 09:10 AM
I have mixed feelings on this whole thing.

Sometimes it feels like the globalist elites are purposefully trying to make things happen to fall into the whole end times thing. I'm not sure.

But I don't really know how Ron Paul would fit into it. I haven't really even given it much thought.

Wendi
12-26-2007, 09:19 AM
Okay here's my humble take on it. God created us. He had a plan at that very moment. But Adam and Eve mucked it all up with that stupid apple. His plan didn't change... it just got delayed. And it took a few thousand years before we could even begin to have the direct communication with Him that He'd created us to have, all because of that one little sin. So then Jesus comes. And what does he say? Only the father knows the day and hour of the end. But Jesus was God, how does that figure, right? Because He knows the plan... but the timing is largely dependent on the choices we make through free will. Yeah, that He gave us. Ya know? So how does Ron Paul figure? Simple - he makes the right choice, when everyone else is making the wrong choice. So instead of eating the apple and making a mess we do what's right for a change. :)

Edited to clarify a couple of points:

Regardless of whether or not Ron Paul wins, I personally believe that it is very likely we are close to the "end times." The choices we make, individually and as a nation, will not change the inevitable plan. It can merely make things better - or worse - for us in the meantime.

Second Edit:

I should have known better than try to express what I feel about this in one little paragraph lol.

shasshas
12-26-2007, 09:22 AM
oh COME ON!!! my spacecraft comment is stil the best

Dr.3D
12-26-2007, 09:49 AM
He Comes as a Thief to Those Who do not Watch


Two thousand six hundred eleven years ago, God gave the prophet Daniel a vision of what is going to happen in the end times. After years of wondering what the vision meant, many people finally decided it was never going to be revealed to them so they just gave up on knowing what it said. Of course nobody understood what the vision Daniel had of the end times was about! It says right in the book how it was to be sealed up till the end times. So naturally we must think, in the end times, the book will become unsealed. So many Churches have just thrown the book of Daniel aside figuring it won’t matter because when it happens it will happen and they don’t need to know anything about when it is happening because they are “saved” and that is all there is to it. This is the wrong mindset! We as Christians should always be aware of what is being revealed from the Scriptures on a daily basis. We should try to understand what each and every verse of each and every chapter and book of the Bible means so we will know what God is doing and be fully aware of where we are in the timeline laid out in Bible prophecies. The Bible is the only complete history book available to mankind.

Some argue and say, Jesus said no one is to know the time of the end but I’m here to tell you that’s silly talk and I’m tired of hearing it. Yes, no one was to know when the time of the end is at the time Jesus said that some 2,000 years ago but He also said we would know when it is coming as we approach that time. In Matthew 24:33 He says, “So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near, at the doors.” We should be vigilant and keep our spiritual eyes and ears open to what is happening around us so we will not be caught unaware. Remember the parable of the ten virgins of Matthew 25:1-13. In the last verse of that parable Jesus said, “Therefore watch, for you do not know either the day or the hour in which the Son of Man comes.” I would like to point out the word watch in that verse.
Jesus admonishes us to keep our eyes open and be ready and aware for when that hour comes. In Revelation 3:3 Jesus tells the Church in Sardis, “Remember then how you have received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.” This should imply that if we do watch, we will not be caught unaware and thus He will not come upon us as a thief. Let’s not be like the Church in Sardis who are all fat and happy in thinking they know everything and are comfortable with what they think they know, but instead like the Church in Philadelphia where He says to them in Revelation 3:10 “Because you have kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the habitable world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.”

As we approach the time of the end, we should be aware of it and know what is happening so we will not be fooled when it is upon us. In Matthew 24:34 Jesus says “Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.” Jesus was not talking about the generation He was in but instead, He was talking about the generation of the end times. The last generation before He comes back to take His Bride is the generation He was talking about. As we see what is happening around us, we should notice the things He told us to watch for and then we will know how close we are to the time He is going to come back. As we see those things, we will know we are in the final generation when He is going to return.

Looking back at the parable of the Fig tree in Matthew 24:32, Jesus says “Now learn a parable of the Fig tree. When its branch is still tender and puts out leaves, you know that summer is near.” we should ponder what it means. Now because of a good thing this Church does by proving all things by the scriptures, I must ask you to bear with me for a moment and use your imagination. Consider the Fig tree of Matthew 21:19. Jesus cursed it few days before He was crucified. Remember the words He said to the tree (“Let no fruit grow on you forever.”) when He found it did not have any fruit but only leaves. Typically, a Fig tree will not have any leaves or fruit when it is out of season. Fig trees usually put out buds and begin to fruit before they get leaves. Think about the tree as being the country of Israel and the curse it was about to suffer because of its lack of fruit. Now let’s look at another Fig tree in Luke 13:6-9. Notice how this Fig tree only produced leaves but never any fruit. Consider how the owner of the vineyard came to it for 3 years and found no fruit. Think of the length of the ministry of Jesus and it being three and one half seasons for the fruit tree to bear fruit. But of course it would have to be in the fourth season the tree would have to bear fruit or the owner of the vineyard will cut it down.

Because neither the leafy Fig tree of Matthew 21:19 nor the leafy Fig tree of Luke 13:6 bore any fruit, they became useless. Think of the curse Jesus placed on the Fig tree of Matthew 21:19 as He said, “let no fruit grow on you forever”. Now if those trees may be thought of as the country of Israel we know from the curse, one of them will never bear fruit. Considering this, what will we note when the branch of the Fig tree of Matthew 24:32 is tender and begins to put out leaves? Of course, it does not bear any fruit! Now remember when the country of Israel became a tender branch and began to put out leaves back in 1948. To point out further references to the fruit of the Fig tree let’s take two more looks at the scriptures in Jeremiah 24:1-10 and Song of Solomon 2:11-13. In the first reference, Jeremiah 24:1-10 we read about good figs and bad figs. These it is easy to see, represent the fruit of the country of Israel. In the second reference, Song of Solomon 2:11-13 we read of the winter being over and spring is upon us and the Fig tree puts forth her green figs. Use your imaginations and consider what these verses are saying and then the connection between the country of Israel becoming a tender branch and the coming of the Bridegroom.

Jesus wants us to be watchful and expectant of the time He will return to take His Bride. Let’s get our wedding dresses spotless and have extra oil for our lamps and trim the wicks so we will not be in the dark when the Bridegroom arrives.

Captain Shays
12-26-2007, 10:10 AM
this seems a bit silly.

Some of you are saying that RP will delay the inevitable, which would insinuate that human actions do have consequences that may subtly alter either the timing or nature of the biblical end times.

Yet you also say that it is irrefutable, in your belief, that it is bound to happen (and reading the book of revelations one gets the feeling that not only is man oblivious to the hour, but nor shall he be able to alter the hour), which then contradicts the notion that any human action can escape this course of the apocalypse and the second coming.

so we have this paradox that RP might in some way alter this prophecy, which coincidentally by definition of a prophecy, requires a precise line of events falling into place which concludes to some cataclysmic event or struggle for all of mandkind/civilization/whatever.

So if you do believe that the revelation is an accurate and irrefutable account of what is to come in the unforeseen future at an undetermined time, then there is little point of speculation other than that of intrigue :)

Its not a matter of whether we can alter the time table of God's plans. Its a matter of our role in this world as Christians.

The bible uses some metaphors to show us that one of our roles is to be a light to the world. This for two reasons. One to show the light of Christ to the world. The other to expose deeds that are done in secret. In other words to bring about an understanding of the nature of sin and its consequences so that we can deal with it head on.

Another role mentioned is that we are to be like salt. Salt was used to preserve foods prior to refrigeration. It holds back corruption and decay. We do this simply by our presense in this world, and by actively opposeing evil.

The formation of a one world government and a global cashless financial system is evil. We're told that this world system is not ruled by God, but by Satan and his angels until the time of the fullness of the gentiles is complete and then Jesus will return to wage war against Satan and take His throne in Jerusalem and preside over the entire world.

Back in the ancient Babylonion days they tried to form a one world government and built a tower that they thought could reach into the heavens and they would be like God. But God destroyed it and seperated the people and confused their language.

When Jesus started His ministry, he went out into the desert and fasted for fourty days. When He got hungry and became weakened, Satan started to tempt Him. At one point, Satan took Jesus to the top of a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the earth and offered Jesus dominion over all the kingdoms if Jesus would worship Satan instead of God.
Of course Jesus refused Satan and said that we should worship God with all our hearts, our body and our understanding.
The part that many modern day Christians seem to forget, is that how was Satan able to offer the kingdoms to Jesus and why didn't Jesus, right then and there simply take control of the kingdoms away from Satan? It means that the kingdoms are still under Satan's control until now and until Jesus returns to take it all away from Satan.

Prior to the return of Jesus there are a whole host of prophesies that must be fullfilled first. One of them was the return of Jews to the state of Israel after the predicted displacement of them for a period of time. This happened in 1948 and its also predicted by Jesus Himself that the generation that is alive when that happens will not be all dead and gone until the return of Jesus.

Other things will also happen. Crime will be on the increase. People's love will grow cold toward one another. Homosexual practice and the acceptance of it will increase. We will see a dramatic increase in the fequency and magnitude of earthquakes, violent storms, famines, wars and rumors of wars.

There will also be the formation of a one world government and a cashless financial system relative to the entire world where everyone will be required to recieve a mark either on their right hand or on their forehead in order to buy or sell anything. Many of us think the advent of the RFID chip could lead to this mark. Those who recieve this mark will be condemned but those who refuse it will be saved or raptured when Jesus comes back because the mark is equal to worship of Satan or his anti-christ who heads the global government.

If anyone has ever read the first sectretary general of the UN (secretary Muller)'s innaugeral address to the UN in 1948, he makes no secret about it. The United Nations was set up specifically to some day become a one world government and the world bank was set up specificaly to become the central bank fo the world.

Of course I don't expect non believers to buy into any of this, but for us Christians, its a very strong reason to vote for Ron Paul. He has authored bills that would get us out of the UN, the world bank, and all the incremental steps toward world government like the IMF, WTO, NAFTA, SPP, and CAFTA.

Can we stop God's plans? No, But are they God's plans or does God just use these events to bring about His final will? I say the latter.

According to the bible that most Christians believe in, the plan to form a one world government is not God's plan but Satan's. So that if a Christian votes for those who are trying to bring it about we are either directly or indirectly taking part in a Satanic plan. When the one world governent finally does form, another of the prophesies is that Christians will be severely persecuted the world over. We will be jailed, tortured, and killed for our faith in Jesus Christ just like the Christians in Rome were but even worse.

I believe this one world government won't happen in a vaccum but will come about in the context of our modern reality. There will be good reasons for the world to get together to solve the problems, whether they are environmental, (global warming) energy shortages, water shortages or things caused by weather changes i.e storms earthquakes ect. We will not see it as unusual and may even vote for those who advocate for it.

This is why as a Christian I can't vote for Huckabee and Ron Paul is the only candidate in my opinion for a Christian to vote for. He opposes the formation of a one world government and the erosion of the liberties that Jesus Christ has authored. Yeah, I didn't mention that but christians believe that we have liberty in Christ and that many of the founding fathers believed that as well and drafted the Constitution with that in mind to some extent. So to uphold the Constitution is not only a Christian thing to do by giving your oath to God and upholding it, but it follows our bible as well.

1913_to_2008
12-26-2007, 10:14 AM
Notice how nobody comes here and bullies you around for discussing this. If it were 911 truth talk you'd have 50 trolls clogging you thread.

If end times are real . Ron Paul would play the part of running this country while it gets destroyed. From what I've found from my research is that a leader will emerge out of the EU then, America will be wiped out.

Captain Shays
12-26-2007, 10:34 AM
He Comes as a Thief to Those Who do not Watch


Two thousand six hundred eleven years ago, God gave the prophet Daniel a vision of what is going to happen in the end times. After years of wondering what the vision meant, many people finally decided it was never going to be revealed to them so they just gave up on knowing what it said. Of course nobody understood what the vision Daniel had of the end times was about! It says right in the book how it was to be sealed up till the end times. So naturally we must think, in the end times, the book will become unsealed. So many Churches have just thrown the book of Daniel aside figuring it won’t matter because when it happens it will happen and they don’t need to know anything about when it is happening because they are “saved” and that is all there is to it. This is the wrong mindset! We as Christians should always be aware of what is being revealed from the Scriptures on a daily basis. We should try to understand what each and every verse of each and every chapter and book of the Bible means so we will know what God is doing and be fully aware of where we are in the timeline laid out in Bible prophecies. The Bible is the only complete history book available to mankind.

Some argue and say, Jesus said no one is to know the time of the end but I’m here to tell you that’s silly talk and I’m tired of hearing it. Yes, no one was to know when the time of the end is at the time Jesus said that some 2,000 years ago but He also said we would know when it is coming as we approach that time. In Matthew 24:33 He says, “So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near, at the doors.” We should be vigilant and keep our spiritual eyes and ears open to what is happening around us so we will not be caught unaware. Remember the parable of the ten virgins of Matthew 25:1-13. In the last verse of that parable Jesus said, “Therefore watch, for you do not know either the day or the hour in which the Son of Man comes.” I would like to point out the word watch in that verse.
Jesus admonishes us to keep our eyes open and be ready and aware for when that hour comes. In Revelation 3:3 Jesus tells the Church in Sardis, “Remember then how you have received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.” This should imply that if we do watch, we will not be caught unaware and thus He will not come upon us as a thief. Let’s not be like the Church in Sardis who are all fat and happy in thinking they know everything and are comfortable with what they think they know, but instead like the Church in Philadelphia where He says to them in Revelation 3:10 “Because you have kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the habitable world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.”

As we approach the time of the end, we should be aware of it and know what is happening so we will not be fooled when it is upon us. In Matthew 24:34 Jesus says “Truly I say to you, This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.” Jesus was not talking about the generation He was in but instead, He was talking about the generation of the end times. The last generation before He comes back to take His Bride is the generation He was talking about. As we see what is happening around us, we should notice the things He told us to watch for and then we will know how close we are to the time He is going to come back. As we see those things, we will know we are in the final generation when He is going to return.

Looking back at the parable of the Fig tree in Matthew 24:32, Jesus says “Now learn a parable of the Fig tree. When its branch is still tender and puts out leaves, you know that summer is near.” we should ponder what it means. Now because of a good thing this Church does by proving all things by the scriptures, I must ask you to bear with me for a moment and use your imagination. Consider the Fig tree of Matthew 21:19. Jesus cursed it few days before He was crucified. Remember the words He said to the tree (“Let no fruit grow on you forever.”) when He found it did not have any fruit but only leaves. Typically, a Fig tree will not have any leaves or fruit when it is out of season. Fig trees usually put out buds and begin to fruit before they get leaves. Think about the tree as being the country of Israel and the curse it was about to suffer because of its lack of fruit. Now let’s look at another Fig tree in Luke 13:6-9. Notice how this Fig tree only produced leaves but never any fruit. Consider how the owner of the vineyard came to it for 3 years and found no fruit. Think of the length of the ministry of Jesus and it being three and one half seasons for the fruit tree to bear fruit. But of course it would have to be in the fourth season the tree would have to bear fruit or the owner of the vineyard will cut it down.

Because neither the leafy Fig tree of Matthew 21:19 nor the leafy Fig tree of Luke 13:6 bore any fruit, they became useless. Think of the curse Jesus placed on the Fig tree of Matthew 21:19 as He said, “let no fruit grow on you forever”. Now if those trees may be thought of as the country of Israel we know from the curse, one of them will never bear fruit. Considering this, what will we note when the branch of the Fig tree of Matthew 24:32 is tender and begins to put out leaves? Of course, it does not bear any fruit! Now remember when the country of Israel became a tender branch and began to put out leaves back in 1948. To point out further references to the fruit of the Fig tree let’s take two more looks at the scriptures in Jeremiah 24:1-10 and Song of Solomon 2:11-13. In the first reference, Jeremiah 24:1-10 we read about good figs and bad figs. These it is easy to see, represent the fruit of the country of Israel. In the second reference, Song of Solomon 2:11-13 we read of the winter being over and spring is upon us and the Fig tree puts forth her green figs. Use your imaginations and consider what these verses are saying and then the connection between the country of Israel becoming a tender branch and the coming of the Bridegroom.

Jesus wants us to be watchful and expectant of the time He will return to take His Bride. Let’s get our wedding dresses spotless and have extra oil for our lamps and trim the wicks so we will not be in the dark when the Bridegroom arrives.

Hey, Thank you very much for that!

I want to ad something to consider. Maybe we were given the prophesies to not only prepare for the return of Jesus Christ but to provide for the needs fo the Saints during the portion of the tribulation perdiod which we are still here and until the return of Jesus.
How else are we to feed eachother if we can't buy or sell anything unless we made preparations before hand? I really believe that we were given the prophesies not just so that we can say "see, I told you so", but so that we can prepare. Christians are going to be hunted down for their rejection of the global plans and rejection of the Mark of the Beast.
No way do I believe any longer that we will be raptured before the tribulation but will go through at least a part of it making the rapture, a rescue out of the tribulation. There is only one second coming of Jesus. When He reaches the clouds, He calls up those who are dead out of their graves and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with Him in the air and we will be transformed immediatly. We then wage war against Satan and his angels here on earth.
The pre-tribulation rapture theory just doesn't make sense to me anymore. Why would God allow all the Christians past to be so harshly persecuted but not us especially when there are so many verses to indicate otherwise?

Captain Shays
12-26-2007, 10:56 AM
Here are some really good links for Christians to use in promoting Ron Paul to other Christians

Great Sermon for all Ron Paul Christians
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3051024550497129264&q=ohio+world+church+irs&total=1&start=0&num=100&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


Ron Paul supporter confront Huckabee on his connection to the CFR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGxMdNCjfRU

Huckabee admitting his consultants are CFR Part I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxZ_wTPl7ak&feature=related

Huckabee admitting his connection to CFR Part II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4r5Pbfl-WI&feature=related

sedele
12-26-2007, 10:58 AM
Hey, Thank you very much for that!

I want to ad something to consider. Maybe we were given the prophesies to not only prepare for the return of Jesus Christ but to provide for the needs fo the Saints during the portion of the tribulation perdiod which we are still here and until the return of Jesus.
How else are we to feed eachother if we can't buy or sell anything unless we made preparations before hand? I really believe that we were given the prophesies not just so that we can say "see, I told you so", but so that we can prepare. Christians are going to be hunted down for their rejection of the global plans and rejection of the Mark of the Beast.
No way do I believe any longer that we will be raptured before the tribulation but will go through at least a part of it making the rapture, a rescue out of the tribulation. There is only one second coming of Jesus. When He reaches the clouds, He calls up those who are dead out of their graves and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with Him in the air and we will be transformed immediatly. We then wage war against Satan and his angels here on earth.
The pre-tribulation rapture theory just doesn't make sense to me anymore. Why would God allow all the Christians past to be so harshly persecuted but not us especially when there are so many verses to indicate otherwise?

Amen!

The Pre-trib rapture is a lie.

Dr.3D
12-26-2007, 11:02 AM
Hey, Thank you very much for that!

I want to ad something to consider. Maybe we were given the prophesies to not only prepare for the return of Jesus Christ but to provide for the needs fo the Saints during the portion of the tribulation perdiod which we are still here and until the return of Jesus.
How else are we to feed eachother if we can't buy or sell anything unless we made preparations before hand? I really believe that we were given the prophesies not just so that we can say "see, I told you so", but so that we can prepare. Christians are going to be hunted down for their rejection of the global plans and rejection of the Mark of the Beast.
No way do I believe any longer that we will be raptured before the tribulation but will go through at least a part of it making the rapture, a rescue out of the tribulation. There is only one second coming of Jesus. When He reaches the clouds, He calls up those who are dead out of their graves and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with Him in the air and we will be transformed immediatly. We then wage war against Satan and his angels here on earth.
The pre-tribulation rapture theory just doesn't make sense to me anymore. Why would God allow all the Christians past to be so harshly persecuted but not us especially when there are so many verses to indicate otherwise?

I totally agree, the pre-trib rapture idea is silly and not scriptural in the least. All one has to do is read the scriptures to know the truth about that.

JGalt
12-26-2007, 11:08 AM
according to any non-american end times theologian, America doesn't feature in Armageddon. Either everybody is 'raptured' first (good) or everybody is dead or something due to a prior event removing the US from the World stage.

A lot of American theologians take this view as well. However those making movies need America to be involved, and others confuse America with Iarael due to super-patriotism. Same way they confuse the Flag with God.

When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag, carrying a cross...

Time for Change
12-26-2007, 11:15 AM
The quick down and dirty....
Make sure you are living right, right with GOD, and being a good example of Christianity when he returns to take the church home.
Some say that the church is taken out of here before the Crap hits the fan, others say the church is supposed to suffer through the times of tribulation.
Nobody will know who is right until it happens, and I prefer to err on the side of caution :D

I believe the former. God is going to take his church out before hand (rapture), and let it play out. (Think of it as a reward for living right and keeping your focus on God.)
He tells the church to be ready, and since the time is unknown, you need to be ready ALWAYS.
He says he comes like a thief in the night, in the blink of an eye, etc.
This, IMO, is a point blank warning for those who think they'll wait to the last second... live like heathens, then repent at the last conceivable opportunity and be saved.
It is a message to live right and be ready, period.

Back on track, I personally don’t think Ron has a specific role.
I cannot see him being any sort of catalyst for the end of times.
Ron stands for being honest, staying out of wars, separation from the World government, etc.
If anything, he is the messenger (obviously informally, he’s not a preacher) of returning the country to it’s original state. A country founded by people who follow Christian teaching, principles and are morally sound.

That is obviously un-official, but by what the man says, and his track record, I think I am pretty close. He appears to be the genuine article.

If we indeed live in the end times…
Is there really any way to stop it? NO
Can one (or a nation) directly oppose or change the outline of events created by God? NO

All we can do is live right, raise our children to be morally sound and be prepared to meet our maker.
If it happens in our lifetime (and we make the cut) pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib or whatever happens…rejoice, shout, praise our maker and enjoy life eternal.

Perry
12-26-2007, 11:36 AM
Interesting question.

I don't know, but he could be someone who at least for a time stops or delays the agenda of the globalists.

But as a christian, I believe what the bible says... it's coming eventually, and it's going to be really difficult, especially for believers. But as I just mentioned on another thread, there is hope. That is the one thing that gives me peace about the whole scenario. There is a power greater than the temporary powers of this world. And the true power WILL win, ultimately.

This is precisely how I feel. I have little hope that the human race will ever create a right & just nation, yet I allow myself to hope for a temporary reprieve from this nations current path.

Dr.3D
12-26-2007, 11:37 AM
The quick down and dirty....
Make sure you are living right, right with GOD, and being a good example of Christianity when he returns to take the church home.
Some say that the church is taken out of here before the Crap hits the fan, others say the church is supposed to suffer through the times of tribulation.
Nobody will know who is right until it happens, and I prefer to err on the side of caution :D

I believe the former. God is going to take his church out before hand (rapture), and let it play out. (Think of it as a reward for living right and keeping your focus on God.)
He tells the church to be ready, and since the time is unknown, you need to be ready ALWAYS.
He says he comes like a thief in the night, in the blink of an eye, etc.
This, IMO, is a point blank warning for those who think they'll wait to the last second... live like heathens, then repent at the last conceivable opportunity and be saved.
It is a message to live right and be ready, period.

Back on track, I personally don’t think Ron has a specific role.
I cannot see him being any sort of catalyst for the end of times.
Ron stands for being honest, staying out of wars, separation from the World government, etc.
If anything, he is the messenger (obviously informally, he’s not a preacher) of returning the country to it’s original state. A country founded by people who follow Christian teaching, principles and are morally sound.

That is obviously un-official, but by what the man says, and his track record, I think I am pretty close. He appears to be the genuine article.

If we indeed live in the end times…
Is there really any way to stop it? NO
Can one (or a nation) directly oppose or change the outline of events created by God? NO

All we can do is live right, raise our children to be morally sound and be prepared to meet our maker.
If it happens in our lifetime (and we make the cut) pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib or whatever happens…rejoice, shout, praise our maker and enjoy life eternal.

While I agree mostly to what you are saying, I have to add, it's not just about 'living right', the gift given to us by our Lord, must be accepted. We are not saved by how we live but rather by accepting Jesus as the Lamb of God and the final sacrifice. He was the 'Morning Sacrifice', 'Evening Sacrifice' and the 'Ultimate Passover Sacrifice'. After this ultimate sacrifice, the temple was destroyed and the land it was built on taken over by another group so no temple will ever be built upon that location again and thus no sacrifices were going to take place either.

Ron Paul knows the principals taught by Jesus. He knows we are to 'Do unto others as we would have them do unto us.' He knows the idea of 'turning the other cheek'. By voting for Ron Paul, Christians are showing they also support these teachings. By voting for Ron Paul, Christians are showing they do not approve of the way our present government is conducting business around the world.
------------------------
Ezekiel 9:4-11 4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. 5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. 8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? 9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not. 10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head. 11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.
----------------------
1 Peter 4:17 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Captain Shays
12-26-2007, 11:57 AM
Hey guys,

I'm really encouraged by my fellow Christians here who support Ron Paul.

We're a force. We need to be a stronger force and help other Christians realize that Huckabee though he is a christian preacher isn't the best possible choice for Christians to vote for in 08. Ron Paul is.

Time for Change
12-26-2007, 11:59 AM
While I agree mostly.... the gift given to us by our Lord, must be accepted. We are not saved by how we live but rather by accepting Jesus as the Lamb of God and the final sacrifice.


That is kind of a "Given" with any Christian, no matter how they may phrase it. :rolleyes: :D

I must say, though...maybe it is better phrased "We are not saved by how we live ALONE"
Your works (the way you live and represent Christianity) bear witness to those searching for the truth.
Note: NOT THE 911 CRAP, I am speaking of the Church! :mad:

One can accept the message all they want, but if they do not align their lifestyle and mannerisms with godliness, it is a waste of time.

Thanks for adding your angle, I appreciate it! I love perspectives.

Dr.3D
12-26-2007, 01:02 PM
That is kind of a "Given" with any Christian, no matter how they may phrase it. :rolleyes: :D

I must say, though...maybe it is better phrased "We are not saved by how we live ALONE"
Your works (the way you live and represent Christianity) bear witness to those searching for the truth.
Note: NOT THE 911 CRAP, I am speaking of the Church! :mad:

One can accept the message all they want, but if they do not align their lifestyle and mannerisms with godliness, it is a waste of time.

Thanks for adding your angle, I appreciate it! I love perspectives.

Really accepting the gift would be reflected by how you live your life. ;)
Love ya brother!

DeafPalmdale
12-26-2007, 02:16 PM
Well, all of the Bible prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD, the Fall of Jerusalem. The great city (Jerusalem = Babylon the Great Harlot) where the Lord was crucified. Many Christians did not aware about two historians:

Did anyone in the first century see some strange signs before end of their generation? Of course! The writings of two (maybe more) ancient, non-Christian historians seem to record such an incident. The Jewish historian Josephus wrote before the destruction of Jerusalem (66 AD), "A certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those who saw it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding the cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said, that in the first place they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound of multitude, saying, 'Let us remove hence" (Josephus' Wars of the Jews VI.V.3, read the whole Book VI especially in chapter V).

The Roman historian Tacitus relates a very similar event of the destruction of Jerusalem, "Early in this year [70 AD] Titus Caesar, who had been selected by his father [Vespasian] to complete the subjugation of Judaea, ...At last he encamped near Jerusalem. As I [Tacitus] am about to relate the last days of a famous city, ...Prodigies had occurred, ...There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies, the fiery gleam of arms, the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds. The doors of the inner shrine [temple] were suddenly thrown open, and a voice of more than mortal tone was heard to cry that the gods were departing. At the same instant there was a mighty stir as of departure. Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire" (Tacitus, The Histories, Book V).

Jesus told his disciples all of these things will occurred within their generation (40 years, death on the cross in 30 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD).

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/DeafPreterist/genea.html

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/hochner-donald_p_09.html

It was not about the end of the world, it was end of the Jewish world. The Bible was written to a specific people, from Adam to Jesus' generation.

Dr.3D
12-26-2007, 03:12 PM
Well, all of the Bible prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD, the Fall of Jerusalem. The great city (Jerusalem = Babylon the Great Harlot) where the Lord was crucified. Many Christians did not aware about two historians:

Did anyone in the first century see some strange signs before end of their generation? Of course! The writings of two (maybe more) ancient, non-Christian historians seem to record such an incident. The Jewish historian Josephus wrote before the destruction of Jerusalem (66 AD), "A certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those who saw it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding the cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said, that in the first place they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound of multitude, saying, 'Let us remove hence" (Josephus' Wars of the Jews VI.V.3, read the whole Book VI especially in chapter V).

The Roman historian Tacitus relates a very similar event of the destruction of Jerusalem, "Early in this year [70 AD] Titus Caesar, who had been selected by his father [Vespasian] to complete the subjugation of Judaea, ...At last he encamped near Jerusalem. As I [Tacitus] am about to relate the last days of a famous city, ...Prodigies had occurred, ...There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies, the fiery gleam of arms, the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds. The doors of the inner shrine [temple] were suddenly thrown open, and a voice of more than mortal tone was heard to cry that the gods were departing. At the same instant there was a mighty stir as of departure. Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire" (Tacitus, The Histories, Book V).

Jesus told his disciples all of these things will occurred within their generation (40 years, death on the cross in 30 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD).

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/DeafPreterist/genea.html

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/hochner-donald_p_09.html

It was not about the end of the world, it was end of the Jewish world. The Bible was written to a specific people, from Adam to Jesus' generation.

So after that, Jesus returned and we missed His second coming?

chonald
12-26-2007, 03:19 PM
The end times will just be a change from the age of Pisces to the age of Aquarius. Planets will align differently, and a new religion will emerge.

Dr.3D
12-26-2007, 03:30 PM
The end times will just be a change from the age of Pisces to the age of Aquarius. Planets will align differently, and a new religion will emerge.

Isn't that saying creation will overthrow the creator?

LibertiORDeth
12-26-2007, 03:33 PM
according to any non-american end times theologian, America doesn't feature in Armageddon. Either everybody is 'raptured' first (good) or everybody is dead or something due to a prior event removing the US from the World stage.

A lot of American theologians take this view as well. However those making movies need America to be involved, and others confuse America with Iarael due to super-patriotism. Same way they confuse the Flag with God.

Do you have Scripture references for this?

LibertiORDeth
12-26-2007, 03:35 PM
Christians have been living in the end times since the resurrection of Christ. But I guess by end times you're referring to the "end of the world as we know it" , I think Ron Paul would do a good job of keeping America from becoming a part of the emerging world government led by the antichrist by keeping us out of the NAU. Perhaps Americans would not be subject to the mark of the beast, whatever it is - the "mark" that someday all will need to have to buy or sell - by getting rid of the Fed, and doing away with our economic slavery aka income tax.

I doubt it. America HAS to become apart of the NWO, along with the rest of the world.

Sandy
12-26-2007, 03:42 PM
The end times will just be a change from the age of Pisces to the age of Aquarius. Planets will align differently, and a new religion will emerge.

Sounds like you are a believer in alchemy. There is a goal by the NWO goons to have a one world religion, and they are using many ways to try and push a way to it. It involves earth worship and a collective 'we are all one' soul mentality.

Dr.3D
12-26-2007, 03:46 PM
Sounds like you are a believer in alchemy. There is a goal by the NWO goons to have a one world religion, and they are using many ways to try and push a way to it. It involves earth worship and a collective 'we are all one' soul mentality.

There are many problems when people worship creation rather than the creator. This is part of the problem we are having now with all of the consumerism.

Captain Shays
12-26-2007, 04:20 PM
I doubt it. America HAS to become apart of the NWO, along with the rest of the world.


We could be destroyed by then. Or simply rendered inconsequential. Or as you say we could by then be part of the NWO-OWG
After all, its many individuals in our own government who are promoting it. Not Ron Paul though.
I go back to wha I was saying before. The OWG is evil and Satanic. its not God's plan though like all evil and good, He makes it work out for His purpose.

Many Christians today (like I used to) think that the one world government just because its mentioned ni their bible is God's plan. But how could it be if He destroys it and Satan's guy heads it and kills Christians?
Its simply a prophesy of events that will work out for God's plan. For us to support any part of it is taking part in the evil. Thats why we need to educate other Christians about these things. It excedes the political boundaries of accepted left-right paradigms and thrusts it directly into the rational thought of Christians as children of God. There is no left or right. There is no Democrat or Republican. There is no conservative or liberal. All of those disctinctions exist nowhere outside the minds of the people who believe those imaginary lines of demarcation exist but not in reality yet these imaginary lines divide Christians. This cannot be the will of God.

Time for Change
12-26-2007, 04:21 PM
There are many problems when people worship creation rather than the creator. This is part of the problem we are having now with all of the consumerism.

Yup, people are so in love with their possessions, that they lose the time to worship GOD. :eek:

Buy more, look better to everyone, but still feel empty, so spend more to feel better....repeat
It is a crazy cycle, but is widly accepted.
Go figure :rolleyes:

dircha
12-26-2007, 04:32 PM
Scripture seems to make it very clear that all the nations will be deceived.

President Bush is an admitted universalist (all religions lead to God), has prayed in a Shinto temple, and is pressuring Israel to sacrifice land for false peace.

Unfortunately Congressman Paul also personally supports a 2 state solution, even if he will not use the force of federal government to pressure Israel to accept this.

Most evangelical Christians believe the existence of the nation of Israel is a necessary precondition for the tribulation and second coming, and a phony peace deal will figure prominently.

UnReconstructed
12-26-2007, 04:46 PM
I didn't read every post... not going to. However, I believe that America is the "Isle of Chittim" written about by the prophet Daniel. In his writing, ships from the Isle of Chittim come to defend Israel when the nation is troubled and cannot defend itself alone.

I don't know where people get the idea that Ron is against Israel. He has said several times that because of our involvement in Israel's politics that they surrender their sovereignty to us. The best way to support Israel is to let them rule themselves. They can defend themselves. Let them be a sovereign nation.

Dave Pedersen
12-26-2007, 04:50 PM
I think Ron Paul may be one of several instruments which brings about the deadly wound to the political beast, this wound of the one world political system may turn out to be simply the secular truth regarding their existence and plans. Whatever the wound turns out to be this wound will then be healed by anti-christ which then sets up the one world religious system.

People are in no way prepared to withstand the flood of lies which the religious system will spread and so nearly all the world will be deceived into worshiping the false christ. But then the outpouring of the Holy Spirit will bring Truth directly from God through the two witnesses into the ear of every person with clarity and this will reap a great harvest out of the deluded masses who worship Satan as though he were actually Jesus Christ.

We live in interesting times. Times in which genuine reliance on God is at low ebb. Times in which the very foundations of life are being tinkered with behind the closed doors of Satanic power centers situated under our noses. This whole situation is far more of a spiritual battle between truth and falsehood than the many "agnostics" and even most Christians care to fathom. It is the culmination of human history unfolding before our eyes.

www.shepherdschapel.com

ladyliberty
12-26-2007, 04:57 PM
Jesus is coming like a thief in the night - 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10 - so none of us know when the actual Second Coming of Christ will be. However, our job as Christians is to "Let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. " We have all been lulled into a comfortable sleep by the media and pablum that passes for news, while all sorts of terrible things have happened to destroy our country all around us and take away the freedom that God has given to us. We have to wake up from this slumber and we have to be vigilant in our efforts to prevent our freedoms from all being taken away under the guise of Homeland Security!

Ron Paul does not have to play any sort of "roll" in the Armeggedon scene, but every one that is pulling for globalizatioin is dragging us towards a One World Government that is satanic in its nature.

aravoth
12-26-2007, 05:47 PM
what is going on in this thread? :confused:

dircha
12-26-2007, 05:57 PM
what is going on in this thread? :confused:

Freedom

aravoth
12-26-2007, 08:09 PM
Freedom

good answer!

eloquensanity
12-26-2007, 08:53 PM
Hey, Thank you very much for that!

I want to ad something to consider. Maybe we were given the prophesies to not only prepare for the return of Jesus Christ but to provide for the needs fo the Saints during the portion of the tribulation perdiod which we are still here and until the return of Jesus.
How else are we to feed eachother if we can't buy or sell anything unless we made preparations before hand? I really believe that we were given the prophesies not just so that we can say "see, I told you so", but so that we can prepare. Christians are going to be hunted down for their rejection of the global plans and rejection of the Mark of the Beast.
No way do I believe any longer that we will be raptured before the tribulation but will go through at least a part of it making the rapture, a rescue out of the tribulation. There is only one second coming of Jesus. When He reaches the clouds, He calls up those who are dead out of their graves and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with Him in the air and we will be transformed immediatly. We then wage war against Satan and his angels here on earth.
The pre-tribulation rapture theory just doesn't make sense to me anymore. Why would God allow all the Christians past to be so harshly persecuted but not us especially when there are so many verses to indicate otherwise?


I think you are right about no pre-trib rapture. I think it is based on a perversion of the scripture and is part of the deception. It was first brought to light by Margaret Mc Donald as she had some kind of vision.
I do not believe it is scriptural that it happens before the last trump
Prophecy states that if God hadn't shortened the time even the elect would be decieved. How could they be decieved if they have been raptured?

Time for Change
12-26-2007, 08:56 PM
it is an unknown. Willing to bet eternity on it?


That's my opinion. Not worth the risk.
It is irrelevant if you are right with God. When it happens it happens.
It is those that think they don't need to worry about it until later that worry me.

shasshas
12-26-2007, 09:01 PM
yay my spacecraft fundraising drive !

Sandra
12-26-2007, 09:25 PM
Nothing we do will cause prophetic events to slip through God's hands. We are not in control.

B9vot3r
12-26-2007, 10:38 PM
Nothing we do will cause prophetic events to slip through God's hands. We are not in control.

Well this is exactly what i was trying to make a point of in my first post. It would seem that most people in here believe as christians that there is an undeniable end which will be played out as the bible describes. Yet the topic of this forum is how ron paul would affect that.

My point is simply, philosophically speaking, if nothing that the choices of men, either individually or collectively, can do to alter, delay or somehow change this prophecy as stated in the book of revelations, then doesnt that mean that RP fundamentally does not affect the prophecy, yet would simply be a part of it? i mean im all very glad that no one here who believes this would be complicit to vote for another candidate ( :) )
but even that isnt the question of the thread.

going further into the philosophy of any and all prophecy despite the religion it is founded upon, a prophecy demands a final outcome which is the penultimate result of events cascading down some historical water all to settle into a singular scenario at the bottom of the cliff. if time and history is completely linear, and all of our choices are made decidedly well before we are ever even born, then one could argue that our sins as well as our good deeds are out of our control which strongly contradicts the underpinnings of most religions which imply through scripture that our spiritual fate is a direct consequence of our choices. You cant say that we are all born with a clean slate under that notion, but rather God has created, decided and judged a man's fate at conception (unless of course the lady takes the morning-after pill or something).

fun little image btw :)

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4181/image2cs1.jpg

Dr.3D
12-26-2007, 11:19 PM
Well this is exactly what i was trying to make a point of in my first post. It would seem that most people in here believe as christians that there is an undeniable end which will be played out as the bible describes. Yet the topic of this forum is how ron paul would affect that.

My point is simply, philosophically speaking, if nothing that the choices of men, either individually or collectively, can do to alter, delay or somehow change this prophecy as stated in the book of revelations, then doesnt that mean that RP fundamentally does not affect the prophecy, yet would simply be a part of it? i mean im all very glad that no one here who believes this would be complicit to vote for another candidate ( :) )
but even that isnt the question of the thread.

going further into the philosophy of any and all prophecy despite the religion it is founded upon, a prophecy demands a final outcome which is the penultimate result of events cascading down some historical water all to settle into a singular scenario at the bottom of the cliff. if time and history is completely linear, and all of our choices are made decidedly well before we are ever even born, then one could argue that our sins as well as our good deeds are out of our control which strongly contradicts the underpinnings of most religions which imply through scripture that our spiritual fate is a direct consequence of our choices. You cant say that we are all born with a clean slate under that notion, but rather God has created, decided and judged a man's fate at conception (unless of course the lady takes the morning-after pill or something).

fun little image btw :)



Sounds like you are talking about predestination.

Here is my view on that.

God gives us the freewill to do as we please. God also knows from the start what we will actually do. So no, we can not change what is going to happen in prophecy but we need to make the correct decisions for our lives here on Earth.
Those decisions do not affect the outcome of prophecy but they do affect how we will be viewed when we stand before our creator on judgment day.

ionlyknowy
12-26-2007, 11:26 PM
As a Christian, I have analyzed this very extensively. There are two scenarios.

1. RP is elected and keeps that US from going into a police state milit-corpora-fascist style govt. for another 4-8 years. Or we continue with RP like views and remove ourselves from the world stage militaristicily. Making it easier for other countries to become world powers. I say we just built America into a nice fortified country where even if another country became a world power we would be able to defend ourselves against their influence, or a hostile take over.

2. Or RP is not elected, and the Christians that do support RP, are what we call the remnant of Christ's followers. The other Christians that have been misled have fallen victim to the false prophets of our day (neocons), which were so hastily described in the bible. We will then continue with our spending, and our economy will crash the US will declare bankruptcy and we will no longer be a world power. Then the rise of Russia and China, along with various Muslim nations will rise against Israel.
http://biblelight.net/false-prophets.htm

But either way, I feel it would be inevitable that we no longer are a world power.

Dave Pedersen
12-26-2007, 11:27 PM
Concerning predestination there are those with unlimited free will and there are those with limited free will. Those with unlimited free will can do exactly as they please with no interference from God unless they request it. Those with limited free will are called the elect and they have a destiny. Saul of Tarsus was one such individual. God directly interfered with his life and his name was changed to Paul. Some are elect and some are free will. All are accountable for their actions.

Real_CaGeD
12-27-2007, 12:17 AM
Read "The United States and Brittain in Prophecy" Armstrong.


Armstrong says The United states IS Israel.

Ofcourse I do not know shit from shinola about any of this.

idiom
12-27-2007, 01:00 AM
Thats British israelism, which is pretty much white supremacy. I know a lot of American 'christians' seemed to think that the attack on America was an attack on God.

Nearly everyone I know agrees that the whole shebang is being held up by the reconstruction of the temple which is one of many things that have to happen prior to the being of the end of the age.

I personally think there is at least one serious war left to go before we can get near the end times.

I have plenty of scripture to back it up and plenty that opposes it.

One of my Grandfathers casts out demons and the other wrote a book predicting 2005 as the year of the rapture (unfortunately he passed in early 2001.)

I have a doomsday shelf filled with books declaring every year since the mid 70's to be the last year. For me however we are yet to beat out 1666 with the Black plauge killing huge percentages of the worlds population, the great fire of London and '666' in the date.

Still the whole thinks makes for great TV.

Paul.Bearer.of.Injustice
12-27-2007, 01:20 AM
Is the Thief in the Night the Fed Chairman?

rekced
12-27-2007, 02:02 AM
Biblically speaking, what role would a Ron Paul play in the end times scenario?

Ron Paul says he wants to end ALL aid to Israel.


Genesis Chapter 12

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.



What year did we start helping Israel? Wasn't it 1949?

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/2/2a/430px-Real_gdp_per_capita.png

Chart 1: Per-capita GDP from 1790-2005 (inflation-adjusted) illustrates huge productivity growth in the US economy.

dircha
12-27-2007, 02:05 AM
Ron Paul says he wants to end ALL aid to Israel.

End federal government aid, yes. And end funding of Israel's enemies.

And that is far better than our current Universalist president George W Bush who is pressuring Israel to accept a phony land for peace deal being pushed by CFR globalists.

And you can rest assured that every one of the other "mainstream" candidates will continue pushing this agenda for phony peace. What does the Bible say about that?

Liberty Star
12-27-2007, 02:20 AM
And that is far better than our current Universalist president George W Bush who is pressuring Israel to accept a phony land for peace deal being pushed by CFR globalists.

And you can rest assured that every one of the other "mainstream" candidates will continue pushing this agenda for phony peace. What does the Bible say about that?


Bible says Jews and Arabs are equal as race and people both deserve to have a homeland with freedom and equal rights.

Don't buy into the misguided prophecies of crazy and phony supporters of Israel like Pastor Hagee who believe that Jewish people are not going to be able to get into Heaven despite all the lip service for donations. They promote wars and oppose peace for their own deadly agenda.

eloquensanity
12-27-2007, 02:34 AM
Concerning predestination there are those with unlimited free will and there are those with limited free will. Those with unlimited free will can do exactly as they please with no interference from God unless they request it. Those with limited free will are called the elect and they have a destiny. Saul of Tarsus was one such individual. God directly interfered with his life and his name was changed to Paul. Some are elect and some are free will. All are accountable for their actions.

Thats it in a nutshell.

To know that there are good figs and bad figs spoken of in Jeremiah as well as antichrists spoken of by Christ helps in understanding why things are shaping up the way they are.

Revelation 2:9 (KJV)
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Matthew 7:22-24 (KJV)

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

rekced
12-27-2007, 03:12 AM
End federal government aid, yes. And end funding of Israel's enemies.

And that is far better than our current Universalist president George W Bush who is pressuring Israel to accept a phony land for peace deal being pushed by CFR globalists.

And you can rest assured that every one of the other "mainstream" candidates will continue pushing this agenda for phony peace. What does the Bible say about that?


I don't know what the Bible says about their "phony peace".

I support Ron Paul because he opposes most of the things that could bring us to a new world oder.

-NO national ID card
-Get out of the UN!
-Stop policing the world
-Give people back their liberty
-Stop giving aid to people who hate Israel


The list goes on a lot further, but those are some of the major reasons I support Ron Paul. I know he claims to be a Christian and for that he gains a lot of support from me. I just really hope he is cautious about his stance on Israel.

Liberty Star
12-27-2007, 02:06 PM
Biblically speaking, what role would a Ron Paul play in the end times scenario?


Ron Paul policies will push back rapture timetable for some evangelicals and give few more centuries of peace and fun to the world as this secretly recorded video shows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig