Are we really losing our freedoms? Evidence? Proof?

[newbitech]

I hear this from people all the time. It's like if it doesn't happen to them, then it cannot happen. I read stories all the time that never make it to the main stream for whatever reason.

I am thinking about spending more time in my daily online activities to compile a database of news stories reported by local mainstream media (FOX affiliates, ABC Action News, NBC, etc.. etc..). I'd like to create a table of rights protected by the constitution similar to the periodic table and then cross link with these articles.

I am sure that over the last 10,20,50 years I could compile some compelling evidence that our rights are being slowly eroded away. I am talking numbers here and honestly I have no idea how to go about doing this.

Has anyone tried this or spent anytime trying this? Ron Paul's message is about protecting our rights under the Constitution and restoring our Freedoms and Liberty. I did a quick search in Google News for "violation of civil liberties" and not much showed up. :(

[ValidusCustodiae]

Tell these people who don't believe you to read the U.S.A. P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act, the Military Commissions Act of 2007, and to check out the several attempts to ram free speech impeding "hate crimes" legislation through the congress.

[constitutional]

Tell these people who don't believe you to read the U.S.A. P.A.T.R.I.O.T. act, the Military Commissions Act of 2007, and to check out the several attempts to ram free speech impeding "hate crimes" legislation through the congress.

How do you convince a person that says "If you are not a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about. Period." :confused:

[Matthew Zak]

How do you convince a person that says "If you are not a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about. Period." :confused:

Tell them to read about Nazi Germany.

[bah]

It's like the "You've got nothing to hide" argument. Okay, so why do you have curtains in your windows. The fact is, everyone has something to hide if you look deep enough.

See:
http://static.scribd.com/docs/h7nrbpwdl6lqb.pdf
'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy, by Daniel J. Solove

[Birdlady]

How do you convince a person that says "If you are not a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about. Period." :confused:

In the bills that have been passed, the definition of a "terrorist" has changed dramatically. I can't remember exactly, but I think anyone with a misdemeanor is now a terrorist.

A misdemeanor can be the following petty theft, simple assaults, driving with alcohol, traffic violations, public nuisance.

I read those bills and it made me sick. I don't see how anyone could read those bills and be okay with that's in them, including those who VOTED for it.

[FreeTraveler]

Show them the map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids at this site:

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

Then remind them the next mistake could be at their house.

[PimpBlimp]

H.R. 1955 'thought crime bill'

[Ron2Win]

LOL, just write a Freedom of Information letter to the NSA with your name and see what they answer you.

[theseus51]

Because it's all secret. Secret wiretapping, secret searches, secret recordings of your financial records. Secret prisons, secret surveillance. If it was out in the open, then yeah, people would be outraged and stuff. But because it's all secret, it's the worst kind. You lose your liberty, and don't even know about it.

[Chester Copperpot]

I hear this from people all the time. It's like if it doesn't happen to them, then it cannot happen. I read stories all the time that never make it to the main stream for whatever reason.

I am thinking about spending more time in my daily online activities to compile a database of news stories reported by local mainstream media (FOX affiliates, ABC Action News, NBC, etc.. etc..). I'd like to create a table of rights protected by the constitution similar to the periodic table and then cross link with these articles.

I am sure that over the last 10,20,50 years I could compile some compelling evidence that our rights are being slowly eroded away. I am talking numbers here and honestly I have no idea how to go about doing this.

Has anyone tried this or spent anytime trying this? Ron Paul's message is about protecting our rights under the Constitution and restoring our Freedoms and Liberty. I did a quick search in Google News for "violation of civil liberties" and not much showed up. :(

ronpaulaudio.com has a very good interview with judge andrew napolitano.. But i too find it hard to convince people.. They feel if it doesnt happen to them then it doesnt happen.. OR if it happens to people as long as they can sue then it doesnt happen.. the problem is for every person who sues and wins in court there are probably a bunch of them who never win or cant sue, etc.

[lynnf]

I hear this from people all the time. It's like if it doesn't happen to them, then it cannot happen. I read stories all the time that never make it to the main stream for whatever reason.

I am thinking about spending more time in my daily online activities to compile a database of news stories reported by local mainstream media (FOX affiliates, ABC Action News, NBC, etc.. etc..). I'd like to create a table of rights protected by the constitution similar to the periodic table and then cross link with these articles.

I am sure that over the last 10,20,50 years I could compile some compelling evidence that our rights are being slowly eroded away. I am talking numbers here and honestly I have no idea how to go about doing this.

Has anyone tried this or spent anytime trying this? Ron Paul's message is about protecting our rights under the Constitution and restoring our Freedoms and Liberty. I did a quick search in Google News for "violation of civil liberties" and not much showed up. :(


try searching on habeas corpus and posse comitatus - you can also see the Bush executive orders at whitehouse.gov

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/orders/

also search for information about firearms confiscations that took place around New Orleans after Katrina - a practice run

also about H.R. 2640, a comprehensive plan to expand the powers of the Brady Bill gun restriction plan, Gun Owners of America has opposed it vigorously, and described its provisions for banning individuals, especially veterans, from owning guns as unreasonable:
(awaiting Bush signature)
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59341


search for incidents of police tasering -- tasers were supposed to be used in place of firearms to limit fatalities, but instead are used to torture people into submission for any incident no matter how small.

ever hear of Kelo vs City of New London? Supreme Court decision saying that local governments can take your property away in order
to convert it to "better" use if they can get more tax revenue for it, giving it to business interests

ever hear of free speech zones? used to be the whole darn country (except for private property) was a free speech zone. now, they've been limiting free speech to certain areas under certain circumstances, how long until it's limited to zero?

lynn

[propanes]

More evidence...

h**p://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/21/AR2007122102544_pf.html



CLARKSBURG, W. Va. -- The FBI is embarking on a $1 billion effort to build the world's largest computer database of peoples' physical characteristics, a project that would give the government unprecedented abilities to identify individuals in the United States and abroad.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=64089

[hellah10]

my cousin owns a pizza place here in Toledo and about 6 months ago at 7AM, the feds busted down his apartment door and dragged him to jail with no warrant what-so-ever. They accused him of giving money to hezballah...

my cousin is as American as it gets - farthest thing from an Arab. I don't even think he follows Islam lol. He's all about sports, women, and partying. So for 3 years, they have been watching this pizza place and every single soul that has walked into that store.... including me. When they took him in, he was telling me that they spent 6 hours going through pictures of random people that have gone into the place and how he knew them. He told me that there were 3 pages dedicated to me - including one in my Class A Army uniform. But since his parents left for Lebanon and they are from the southern part of Lebanon, they tried to nail him with funding Israel - even though he is broke as a joke. He has terrible money management

After 3 days, they let him go - but im sure they still watch him and that pizza place very very closely

Patroit ACT at its finest

ive got 10+ more stories from just Toledo... but one should be good enough to convince ya

[chipvogel]

When freedom was redefined to "freedoms" we lost something. There was a time when it was assumed you were born with freedom given from your creator. Freedom has been cut up into separate pieces.

If someone starts listing all the freedoms we enjoy in this country...odds are they will leave something off the list because freedom is defined in the infinite ways we choose to live our lives and not from a list of freedoms the government has alloted to us.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[louisiana4liberty]

my cousin owns a pizza place here in Toledo and about 6 months ago at 7AM, the feds busted down his apartment door and dragged him to jail with no warrant what-so-ever. They accused him of giving money to hezballah...

my cousin is as American as it gets - farthest thing from an Arab. I don't even think he follows Islam lol. He's all about sports, women, and partying. So for 3 years, they have been watching this pizza place and every single soul that has walked into that store.... including me. When they took him in, he was telling me that they spent 6 hours going through pictures of random people that have gone into the place and how he knew them. He told me that there were 3 pages dedicated to me - including one in my Class A Army uniform. But since his parents left for Lebanon and they are from the southern part of Lebanon, they tried to nail him with funding Israel - even though he is broke as a joke. He has terrible money management

After 3 days, they let him go - but im sure they still watch him and that pizza place very very closely

Patroit ACT at its finest

ive got 10+ more stories from just Toledo... but one should be good enough to convince ya

So what was the final result? Was he ever charged? Was he arrested? Did he have his rights read to him? Did he voluntarily give them information? Did he contact an attorney? Did they make threats?

This is an interesting story.

[Nyte]

Have them watch the Documentary: Freedom to Fascism

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173

((Ron Paul talked about this on Meet The Press... and Ron Paul is in the Documentary.))

[wgadget]

What about cameras at intersections and instant tazering for traffic violations?

What about raiding the place that made Ron Paul Dollars for no good reason at all?

[BillyDkid]

People seem to suffer from the delusion that when tyranny comes it's going to come wearing sign and it's going to be obvious to recognize when exactly the opposite is true. It will be like the Sinclair Lewis quote - presenting itself as something good an benign - wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross. It will all about "protecting us" for the danger at our doorstep. It just amazes me that people so gullible. I guess they have been all throughout history so I shouldn't be surprised. When tyranny comes it in the form of candy - sweet tasting poison.

[hellah10]

So what was the final result? Was he ever charged? Was he arrested? Did he have his rights read to him? Did he voluntarily give them information? Did he contact an attorney? Did they make threats?

This is an interesting story.

they let him go after 3 days in the county jail... he was never charged... he was arrested... im pretty sure his rights were read... he gave them all the information they wanted (there was nothing to give them honestly)... the feds told him its pointless to contact a lawyer... i dunno about the threats

[JohnnyWrath]

Most people feel the loss of freedom and liberty directly at lower levels of government. Such as some places are now finger printing people who are stopped for traffic violations, and here we have random check points around the holidays where every car is pulled over without probable cause.

Right to be secure in ones papers and property is one loss we have suffered as Bush sees fit to open any and all mail he wants....Hillycare called for random invasions of peoples home to check air quality and whatever else....

freedom in general is being lost at every level of government, and to protect and serve has become to "generate revenue".

[JJR]

"I hear this from people all the time. It's like if it doesn't happen to them, then it cannot happen"

Right now the president has the power to abduct any American citizen and ship them over seas to be tortured, with no oversight at all. If anyone here objects he has the power to call up the national guard against the will of the governors and use the military against average citizens. If anyone resists or says they don't like it they can classified a terrorist and arrested without charge or hope of release.

Now people say that only bad guys are being abducted and not political protesters or opponent of the president. But as soon as they start arresting people for political reasons then it will already be too late.

We do know that they are spying on anti war groups, infiltrating them with undercover agents, and putting political opponents on the no fly list to harass them. So how long till they start arresting these people or just making them disappear?

What was that saying from the holocaust?

First they came for the communists and I said nothing because I wasn't a communist
Then they came for the homosexuals and I said nothing because I wasn't a homosexual
Then they came for the Jews and I said nothing because I wasn't a Jew
Then they came for me, but there was no one left to say anything.

Well,
First they came for the Muslims....

[AceNZ]

Tyranny, fascism and the loss of freedom doesn't happen overnight. Freedom is stolen in small bits and pieces. Start with something that only impacts a small number of people. Convince people that "it's for your own good", "you'll be safer this way", "we're here to help". It sneaks up you. The whole idea is that by the time most people figure it out, it's too late.

Think about the definition of fascism (from Wikipedia):

1. A sense of overwhelming crisis beyond reach of traditional solutions (9/11 and the "war on terror")
2. Belief one’s group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits (because of 9/11, we have the right to invade Afghanistan and Iraq and kill a million people, even though they had nothing to do with it)
3. Need for authority by a natural leader above the law, relying on the superiority of his instincts (seems like a pretty good description of Bush to me)
4. Right of the chosen people to dominate others without legal or moral restraint (abolishment of habeas corpus, use of torture, unrestrained surveillance, etc)
5. Fear of foreign contamination (Islamists, immigrants, enhanced border security, National ID cards, etc)

[CriticalThinker]

What is Government? Is it not a collection of people? Do you believe that some people have more rights than others? Does not government derive its authority from people?

Let us ponder what we can do:

If I can't rightfully do it to you. And you can't rightfully do it to me. Then where does the Government derive it's authority to do it to all of us?

If I can't take your money for myself. And you can't take my money for yourself. Where does the Government derive it's authority to take money from US?

If I can't force you to sign a piece of paper (contract). And you can't force me to sign a piece of paper (contract). Where does the Government derive it's authority to force us to sign a contract (Drivers License, Business License, IRS Tax Forms - ad nauseum)?

If I can't take away your guns. And you can't take away my guns. Where does the Government derive it's authority to take away our guns? <Don't think so - Put a piece in your back pocket and take a stroll - it won't take long>

If I can't look into all your private paper work. And you can't look into all my private paper work. Where does the Government derive it's authority to look into our private paper work?

If I can't force you to prove who you are. And you can't force me to prove who I am. where does the Government derive it's authority to force us to prove who we are?

If I can't tell you what to smoke. And you can't tell me what to smoke. Where does the Government derive it's authority to tell us what to smoke?

If I can't tell you what to drink. And you can't tell me what to drink. Where does the Government derive it's authority to tell us what to drink?

Can a government rightfully do anything which YOU, as a person , cannot do?

[OferNave]

I recommend the book 'Lost Rights' by James Bovard. It's like an anthology of government rights violations.

[rachmiel]

At the end of the day it's all about the money. To have half of the average person's income extracted through various inconspicuous forms of taxation is slavery.

But beyond that, ask someone whether they feel safe or nervous when they see a cop behind behind them at a stop sign. In my mind, the government should work for us, not the other way around.

[derdy]

Here's a good place to start

http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_police_state.html
http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_big_brother.html
http://www.prisonplanet.com/archives/realid/index.html
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/october2004/091004patriotact.htm
http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_war_on_terror.html#torture

[RlxdN10sity]

Watch this 4 part speech given by Andrew Napolitano at The Future of Freedom Foundation
http://youtube.com/watch?v=t8QwTKKSvR8&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GXzUL9KkgvA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=35yhSifZ5jI&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fRukPp9Tq5k&feature=related
Another good speech is given by Naomi Wolf, the author of - The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc

[snowgoosebob]

Well one things for sure...........
With Ron Paul running for President we are all witnessing and seeing first hand the true haters of Liberty and Freedom that are comming out of the woodwork and showing themselfs

[paulitics]

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.

Thomas Paine (1737 - 1809)"

[jj111]

How do you convince a person that says "If you are not a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about. Period." :confused:

Read history. Not just Nazi Germany, but many other countries that become totalitarian do so gradually, with the "legalizing" of violations of rights, first targetted towards an unpopular or criminal group, but eventually spreading to non-violent political dissidents.

[mconder]

I am thinking about spending more time in my daily online activities to compile a database of news stories reported by local mainstream media (FOX affiliates, ABC Action News, NBC, etc.. etc..). I'd like to create a table of rights protected by the constitution similar to the periodic table and then cross link with these articles.:(


I had a similar idea. I wanted to write a book with each chapter dealing with a particular right and how it has been abused. I like the database idea better. There are already mountains of data you could put into such a database, but you'd need some way to scrub it before it gets into the database, otherwise you'd end up with a lot of conspiracy stuff. I think there's enough out there to make a compelling case now just sticking with the stuff that can be 100% confirmed.

[jonahtrainer]

How do you convince a person that says "If you are not a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about. Period." :confused:

Reply in jest, "Then you don't mind if I send an anonymous tip to the FBI that I overheard you talking about things only a terrorist would talk about?"

[jonahtrainer]

they let him go after 3 days in the county jail... he was never charged... he was arrested... im pretty sure his rights were read... he gave them all the information they wanted (there was nothing to give them honestly)... the feds told him its pointless to contact a lawyer... i dunno about the threats

Another prime example of why everyone NEEDS TO WATCH BUSTED (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA)!

[AceNZ]

Have you seen Judge Napolitano's speech where he tells about how Congress redefined the meaning of "financial institution" to include things like delis and attorney's offices, to widen the areas where self-written warrants can be served?

Now imagine the meaning of "terrorist" being redefined to include people who speak out against the government, who wrote or bought books with anti-government messages, who speak out in support of the constitution, who own guns, who drive big cars... Some of that is actually already happening. Where does it stop?

[BarryDonegan]

if you make this compilation, post it on the internet, you will have made Prisonplanet.com

[Constitutionally Speaking]

How do you convince a person that says "If you are not a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about. Period." :confused:


Not a single US citizen has lost any freedoms. Getting checked at an airport does not qualify as a loss of freedom.

Habeas Corpus rights still exists - Bush has done NOTHING that was not already done and ruled Constitutional.

The loons try to pin this on Bush but if you want to lay blame - go back to FDR.

[sharkcity]

We had enough laws 30 years ago to lock up anybody and everybody. Now we have enough laws to lock up everybody ten times over, hold them indefinitely without even charging them with a crime. 'Course just speaking out is a conspiracy to commit terror these days. Two kids smoking a joint are considered terrorist. The guy that wrote V for Vendetta was bang on.

[boberino]

If you wait until it happens to you, it's too late.

[truelies]

How do you convince a person that says "If you are not a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about. Period." :confused:

Just try boarding a commercial flight these days. Enough said.

[lucius]

I use aravoth's video, What we chose to ignore: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl1VIhdpl4c

Very powerful!