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View Full Version : New Symbol of the Revolution? US Civil Flag




Nyte
12-25-2007, 02:11 AM
As I was doing more reading today, came across this website (http://www.uscivilflags.org/home.html) that talks about the US Civil Flag:


http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/b/b7/208px-Us-civil.svg.png


The first U.S. Flag, which denoted civilian versus military purposes, was designed in 1799 by Oliver Wolcott Jr. the Secretary of the Treasury under John Adams.


http://www.civil-liberties.com/art/flag17b.jpg


The original “common law flag” was first raised over the Liberty Tree in Boston. The "rebellious stripes", as the flag came to be called, was the original flag used by the Sons of Liberty, and it had 9 red and white vertical stripes!

In the early days of our nation, horizontal stripes became the accepted practice for use over military posts, and vertical stripes were used over civilian establishments. The use of the Civilian Flag also spread to Merchants and Common citizens to symbolize their Constitutional rights.

Thoughts?

EvilEngineer
12-25-2007, 02:13 AM
I count 8 stripes each on the 2nd flag, and 7 red and 6 white on the first flag.

Other than that though, I like it. Going to photoshop a new one together real quick.

Oliver
12-25-2007, 02:21 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_United_States

1.4 Fictional designs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_United_States#Fictional_designs)

Nyte
12-25-2007, 02:25 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_United_States

1.4 Fictional designs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_United_States#Fictional_designs)

Right, as I've been reading more, it seems the one with the blue stars on a white field was designed in 2004.

However, this is the original "Rebellious Strips" Flag:
http://www.uscivilflags.org/images/sonsofliberty.jpg

And the flag below "was actively flown on Revenue Cutters, what we now call Coast Guard Cutters... to denote civilian authority under the Treasury Department rather than military authority under the War Department."
http://www.uscivilflags.org/images/civilflag1799_ppl.jpg

garrettwombat
12-25-2007, 02:26 AM
i like the civil flag because it was used by the sons of liberty.

i like to consider myself and like minded revolutionaries as sons of liberty members also, even if they dont think they are.

hawkeyenick
12-25-2007, 02:33 AM
we need a flag maker

Nyte
12-25-2007, 02:35 AM
we need a flag maker

Ask and ye shall receive:
http://www.uscivilflags.org/home.html

And they support Ron Paul.

Myerz
12-25-2007, 02:37 AM
I don't know allot of good men died for our current flag......maybe a good way to piss off allot vets.....

Nyte
12-25-2007, 02:40 AM
I don't know allot of good men died for our current flag......maybe a good way to piss off allot vets.....

Do you really know anyone that "died for our flag"... Do you think they would say they "died for our flag."

BTW, I'm a vet, and I'm more pissed off about the state of this nation...

And it's not about "the flag". No one is trying to replace it. It's about the idea of a return to civilian control of the government.

Just Come Home
12-25-2007, 02:40 AM
money...

http://www.uscivilflags.org/products.html

Oliver
12-25-2007, 02:52 AM
Ask and ye shall receive:
http://www.uscivilflags.org/home.html

And they support Ron Paul.

This is eerie stuff:

http://www.uscivilflags.org/images/kennedy2.jpg
Executive Order 11110- John F. Kennedy's restoration of Silver-based currency coined by the
Treasury of these United States. (http://www.uscivilflags.org/articles-5bill.html)

LibertyEagle
12-25-2007, 02:55 AM
Guys, they already think we are weird enough. Le's just stay with the American flag, ok?

Myerz
12-25-2007, 02:56 AM
I'm a vet...and pissed to.

whatever...not worth arguing about.

JohnnyWrath
12-25-2007, 02:57 AM
Guys, they already think we are weird enough. Le's just stay with the American flag, ok?

+1 and LOL

EvilEngineer
12-25-2007, 02:59 AM
Ok, made this in a few minutes. Let me know what you think.

http://www.nirnroot.net/WeAreRonPaul/CivilFlag/CivilFlagSmall.jpg

Oliver
12-25-2007, 02:59 AM
Guys, they already think we are weird enough. Le's just stay with the American flag, ok?

:D +2

Oliver
12-25-2007, 03:00 AM
Ok, made this in a few minutes. Let me know what you think.



-1 :mad::p

Dieseler
12-25-2007, 03:06 AM
Do you really know anyone that "died for our flag"...

Do you think they would say they "died for our flag."

Yes I do and I know a lot of other people that do to.
Don't even consider compromising the honor of Our Vets with an assinine statement like that.
If you want a flag to symbolize something for yourself that is fine, far be it for me to tell you you can't,
but keep in mind we are Patriots Ourselves
and we have boys over seas that are fighting under that flag while we sleep.

No matter what our stance is on This War we have a responsibility to see them given the honor they deserve for answering the call.

God Bless America and give us the power to right that which is wrong and forgive us for the things we cannot

Support the troops. :mad:

Edit your post Sir. Dr. Paul would not approve.

american.swan
12-25-2007, 03:07 AM
anything can be made into a flag. the ron paul revolution stensil could be made into a flag. why not make "ron paul for President" flags.

i would support the civil gov flag also.

to reduce stress of people who think a new flag is a sign of kooks at rallies and marches make sure to include a good number of USA flags.

I don't think anyone is trying to replace the stars and stripes.

Nyte
12-25-2007, 03:16 AM
Do you really know anyone that "died for our flag"...

Do you think they would say they "died for our flag."

Yes I do and I know a lot of other people that do to.

Don't even consider compromising the honor of Our Vets with an assinine statement like that.
If you want a flag to symbolize something for yourself that is fine, far be it for me to tell you you can't,
but keep in mind we are Patriots Ourselves
and we have boys over seas that are fighting under that flag while we sleep.

No matter what our stance is on This War we have a responsibility to see them given the honor they deserve for answering the call.

God Bless America and give us the power to right that which is wrong and forgive us for the things we cannot

Support the troops. :mad:

Edit your post Sir. Dr. Paul would not approve.

Wow... where to begin...

So let me get this straight... you're suggesting that just because I support an historic symbol of civilian rule and rebellion and civil disobedience, that somehow i don't support our troops?

Do you see the failure of your logic here?

This has nothing to do with "supporting the troops" or "supporting the war." Besides, I doubt one person who has served in the military and died would say they "died for the flag." They would probably like to say they died defending liberty, or defending our sovereignty.

Don't you understand that we are in a battle for our very liberty and lives right now?

Does supporting a revolution to restore the rule of law somehow make me less a patriot than "our boys overseas fighting under that flag"?


I don't think anyone is trying to replace the stars and stripes.
QFT

Man from La Mancha
12-25-2007, 03:17 AM
http://www.civil-liberties.com/art/flag17b.jpg[/CENTER]

I like this one the best but some of masonic 13 symbolism in it, but that was number of the 1st colonies, but why start at 13 not 12 or 14. Why the 16 stripes?

.

LibertyEagle
12-25-2007, 03:18 AM
I don't think anyone is trying to replace the stars and stripes.

Then, please don't.

This is a very bad idea, people. C'mon, we're Americans. We already have a flag.

Creating a different flag might seem neat to some of us, but we need to make sure we don't just focus on doing what Ron Paul supporters think is neat, but consider what our fellow Americans will think is neat too. Do you honestly believe they will understand a new version of the flag?

Let's not do something that will hurt what we are trying to do here in this campaign.

Oliver
12-25-2007, 03:18 AM
we are Patriots Ourselves

Hitler had long admired Germany, and during the war he
had become a passionate German patriot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism), although he did
not become a German citizen until 1932.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#_note-21)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

Nyte
12-25-2007, 03:23 AM
Then, please don't.

This is a very bad idea, people. C'mon, we're Americans. We already have a flag.

Creating a different flag might seem neat to some of us, but we need to make sure we don't just focus on doing what Ron Paul supporters think is neat, but consider what our fellow Americans will think is neat too. Do you honestly believe they will understand a new version of the flag?

Let's not do something that will hurt what we are trying to do here in this campaign.

Nobody is replacing anything.

The "rebellious stripes" is an historic symbol of civil disobedience. The US Civil Flag is an historic symbol of Civilian Rule.

Does anyone accuse people who bring the "Don't Tread on Me" flag to rallies of trying to replace the stars and stripes?

ionlyknowy
12-25-2007, 03:32 AM
we might not need a flag because of the obvious problems...

But we do need a symbol for the revolution. The reason we need this is because there will come a day when Ron Paul is no longer running for president and long gone.

We need a way to identify each other. We need this to ensure the revolution continues

ecliptic
12-25-2007, 03:42 AM
I like this one the best but some of masonic 13 symbolism in it, but that was number of the 1st colonies, but why start at 13 not 12 or 14. Why the 16 stripes?

.

You found the source of my avatar!

I don't like adopting this or any other flag from the early period for the Ron Paul Revolution due to the uncertainty about "what it means"...

... I chose this for my avatar because to me it symbolizes a period of formation - a period of history when a (sometimes) great nation was forming ... from the ideas in the minds of men and women. America's freedom was "an equal and opposing reaction" to the tyranny of British rule.

... sounds kinda familiar?

LibertyEagle
12-25-2007, 03:46 AM
Nobody is replacing anything.

The "rebellious stripes" is an historic symbol of civil disobedience. The US Civil Flag is an historic symbol of Civilian Rule.

Does anyone accuse people who bring the "Don't Tread on Me" flag to rallies of trying to replace the stars and stripes?

No, but there usually aren't a ton of them either. Look guys, Ron is being called unamerican, already. A bunch of Ron Paul supporters carrying a funky flag, is not going to do much to change their minds. Is it? We aren't trying to throw out the system that our founding fathers gave us. We are trying to REINSTATE it. Remember the fife and drum and all that?

Please stay with the program.

AlexMerced
12-25-2007, 03:49 AM
There is no replacing of the flag, this flag is for peace time, which is something we're all aiming to be in. I am adopting this flag as symbol for myself for the Freedom Movement, and encourage everyone else to do so also cause we want a return to peacetime.

http://www.barefootsworld.net/uscivilflag.html

although for the Liberty Independence Alliance we are embracing this flag, and I made a flag for the organization itself and made a flag with a big white circle reprsenting the constitution and 10 stars reprsenting the bill of rights. Something for members of the organization to show show their patronage.

AlexMerced
12-25-2007, 03:52 AM
No, but there usually aren't a ton of them either. Look guys, Ron is being called unamerican, already. A bunch of Ron Paul supporters carrying a funky flag, is not going to do much to change their minds. Is it? We aren't trying to throw out the system that our founding fathers gave us. We are trying to REINSTATE it. Remember the fife and drum and all that?

Please stay with the program.

This isn't some fringe flag, it's flag that is part of the official history of the US that is still used with US customs workers and repsents something we've forgotten as a nation, it's very appropriate.

LibertyEagle
12-25-2007, 03:52 AM
There is no replacing of the flag, this flag is for peace time, which is something we're all aiming to be in. I am adopting this flag as symbol for myself for the Freedom Movement, and encourage everyone else to do so also cause we want a return to peacetime.



You mean the same flag that is described as FICTIONAL in wikipedia? That one?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_United_States

If you want to adopt your own private flag, go for it. But, it doesn't represent Ron Paul at all. Last time I checked, we were TRYING TO WIN THE PRESIDENCY OF THE UNITED STATES. If we could all keep our eyes on that, instead of something else, it sure would be great.

Dieseler
12-25-2007, 03:52 AM
Nyte
I'm not gonna argue with you about this.
I stated my position based on your poor choice of words.
I will continue to salute the only flag I know because it is the flag I was given at my Grandfathers funeral.
That was the flag Given to my Grandmother for his service in WWII, Oliver.
I will salute that flag.
You can recognize me when you see that.

LibertyEagle
12-25-2007, 03:54 AM
This isn't some fringe flag, it's flag that is part of the official history of the US that is still used with US customs workers and repsents something we've forgotten as a nation, it's very appropriate.

So, in addition to talking about the very real issues we need to be explaining to our countrymen that Dr. Paul has brought up, you want to add something to the mix and introduce a flag to them that most have not ever seen? Is that what you are saying? Do you honestly think it is worth it to have to explain why we are changing the American flag?

ecliptic
12-25-2007, 03:57 AM
Note that early American flags were made of hemp (http://www.hemptraders.com/properties_of_hemp_myths.php):

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8526/flag17bby0.jpg (http://www.civil-liberties.com/)

I'd like to propose we stop calling this "thing" we have going a "rEVOLution" as cute as that is and begin to use the phrase "The Restoration"...

WHY?

Simple: the "love spelled backwards" thing could also be interpreted as "EVOL" .... which is the moniker for enemies of liberty. Ours is a movement ... for the Restoration of the Constitution. On that I think we can all agree?

So let's make our own new design for The Restoration. Let's make it on hemp fabric. Let's make a design which we can all be proud of, with NO MASONIC SYMBOLS WHATSOEVER!!!!!! F^CK the masons!!!!!

LibertyEagle
12-25-2007, 04:00 AM
No.

This is not a good move.

We have troops overseas. Many would tell you that they are fighting for our flag. Changing the flag like this, will backfire big time.

Dieseler
12-25-2007, 04:02 AM
Hey Liberty

If we quit posting on this I bet it will go away, what ya reckon?

ecliptic
12-25-2007, 04:04 AM
No.

This is not a good move.

We have troops overseas. Many would tell you that they are fighting for our flag. Changing the flag like this, will backfire big time.

Not changing, just making a "logo" for our "brand".

The Restoration

Coola
12-25-2007, 04:04 AM
Yea I'm not liking the flag. It's cool and all but most people in America wouldn't care for it and probably even view it as anti-american given the first reaction to it without proper education on what it represents.

Let's not make this complicated lol.

OReich
12-25-2007, 04:15 AM
Whoawhoawhoa. You're telling me that there's a flag that originally represented the United States in terms of civilian authority as opposed to military authority, that went on to represent Constitutional rights? That's just freakin awesome.

LibertyEagle
12-25-2007, 04:18 AM
Not changing, just making a "logo" for our "brand".

The Restoration

My "brand" is the Constitution.

Antonius Stone
12-25-2007, 04:21 AM
is there something wrong with flying both flags?

ecliptic
12-25-2007, 04:25 AM
Whoawhoawhoa. You're telling me that there's a flag that originally represented the United States in terms of civilian authority as opposed to military authority, that went on to represent Constitutional rights? That's just freakin awesome.

The Mystery of the Forgotten U.S. Flag Revealed. (http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/mystery_of_the_flag.htm)

Which flag is it anyway? (http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/flag_history.htm)

Coola
12-25-2007, 04:32 AM
I think we're all a bunch of reincarnated patriots from that era and history is just repeating itself. I would even go as far to say that some member of this forum made the flag back in the day.

Nyte
12-25-2007, 04:37 AM
Liberty and Diesler... I will keep saying this as often as you keep wanting to derail this thread...

No one is trying to replace the stars and stripes.

The Rebellious Stripes and the Civil Flag are historic symbols of this country of Civil Disobedience and Civilian Rule.

Rebellion is a completely American tradition.

Thomas Jefferson said, "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?"

Please stop spouting your jingoism in this thread.

CrazyRonPaulSupporter
12-25-2007, 04:38 AM
Very, very interesting thread! I'm going to do more reading and research on the subject tomorrow. If the US Civil Flags history is true, this is a powerful symbol and should be brought back to peoples attention. It seems like it's another piece of US history that has been forgotten by the masses! :)

And I don't see any problem with the US Civil Flag could hanging next to "Old Glory"..........

LibertyEagle
12-25-2007, 04:53 AM
Liberty and Diesler... I will keep saying this as often as you keep wanting to derail this thread...



You started the thread and ended your first post with the statement....
"Thoughts?"

That is what I have given you.

The Plan
12-25-2007, 04:56 AM
This is absolutely brilliant!!!!
Could you imagine if we as a group were able to bring this flag back to the forefront? This is just the kind of symbol we need. We should find a place right away to start making these. We would be crazy not to. It would serve to educate the people even more about the history and why we need to remember it. We shouldn't leave a symbol like this to be lost to the ravages of time. I think Dr. Paul would love this.

idiom
12-25-2007, 05:08 AM
I love it. Its perfect.

Godbag
12-25-2007, 05:08 AM
From what ive read so far i really do not see the problem with both flags being used at rallies... THEY ARE BOTH AMERICAN FLAGS!! There seems to be a troubling trend, actually it is no longer a trend but a set policy, of being called unamerican if you do, say, or think something that the current administration(and all its patsies) does not like... how can any american look at the US Civil Flag and think, thats unamerican?! A "flag" will mean something different depending on who you ask.. to a vet, it is a symbol of what they fought for, risked their lives for, but that symbol included much more than just a bit of cloth... it included family and friends, a sense of pride in what their nation(majority of the population) stood for(not what their nation actually was, or more to the point, what their leaders actually were doing behind closed doors)... to someone watching fox news, it comes accross as more of a "uber patriotic" brainwashing tool used to stifle dissent and gather blind support for whatever agenda they are trying to push... Just like your political system, your flag has been hijacked to a large degree, to further an agenda... IMO, use both, anyone who doesnt grasp the symbolism is to stupid to realise the current state of affairs...

gang
12-25-2007, 05:11 AM
Don't change a nation's symbols.
That wouldn't be such a good move.

When you look for a flag symbolizing liberty (instead of a nation), why not use the gadsden flag?

http://www.flagline.com/images/military/gadsden.jpg

speciallyblend
12-25-2007, 05:12 AM
blimpin,great idea, im gonna fly both flags;) once i can afford to buy them:)

american.swan
12-25-2007, 05:29 AM
I think of flags as a type of advertisement. As such, any banner or placard can be made into a flag. And lets not forget that a hanging "medieval banner" would also be cool looking with different information on it.

Also we don't have to be limited to stars and stripes and such. A "Ron Paul for President" flag or hanging banner would be really cool to use at marches or rallies. How about a "Ron Paul Revolution" flag with LOVE backwards. Anything can be put on a flag/handing banner. How about a "restore the republic" banner?

"old glory" has it's meaning and it always will. No one is trying to replace it. Every rally and meeting should have plenty of them.

I am definitly against an "It was an inside job" flag.

Be creative within reason.

Nyte
12-25-2007, 12:19 PM
I think of flags as a type of advertisement. As such, any banner or placard can be made into a flag. And lets not forget that a hanging "medieval banner" would also be cool looking with different information on it.

Not sure what you mean by a medieval banner.

OptionsTrader
12-25-2007, 12:23 PM
Right, as I've been reading more, it seems the one with the blue stars on a white field was designed in 2004.

However, this is the original "Rebellious Strips" Flag:
http://www.uscivilflags.org/images/sonsofliberty.jpg

And the flag below "was actively flown on Revenue Cutters, what we now call Coast Guard Cutters... to denote civilian authority under the Treasury Department rather than military authority under the War Department."
http://www.uscivilflags.org/images/civilflag1799_ppl.jpg

Ah, the good 'ol days of calling the War Department what it really is.

mconder
12-25-2007, 12:24 PM
Personally, I think it's time for this flag...

http://www.codeodor.com/images/dont_tread_on_me.gif

Nyte
12-25-2007, 12:42 PM
How about this one?

http://www.bubkin.com/images/dont_taze_me_bro.jpg

mconder
12-25-2007, 12:46 PM
How about this one?

http://www.bubkin.com/images/dont_taze_me_bro.jpg

Too funny...

ecliptic
12-25-2007, 12:50 PM
Personally, I think it's time for this flag...

http://www.codeodor.com/images/dont_tread_on_me.gif

The problem with using the Gadsden Flag is it's already used by so many different "groups" and the meaning of it is thereby muddled. I'm pretty sure it's used by some segments of our military ( informally ) ... Is it the S.E.A.L.s ?

... as a side note let's zoom in on the SEALS building at Coronado Base in San Diego using Google Earth and see what we can find....

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/9014/coronado2jx5.jpg (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Navy+SEAL&sll=33.474444,-118.578014&sspn=2.025182,4.334106&ie=UTF8&li=lmd&om=1&z=19&ll=32.676045,-117.157669&spn=0.001996,0.004233&t=h&iwloc=A)

GlobalSecurity satellite image of same (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/images/nab-coronado.jpg)


... the Gadsden Flag is great. But it denotes an aggressive warlike attitude which is a poor fit for the "rEVOLution"...

Craig_R
12-25-2007, 01:23 PM
just purchased one of the "civil" flags and will fly it proudly. Thanks for the heads up.

udecker
12-25-2007, 01:24 PM
How about this one?

http://www.bubkin.com/images/dont_taze_me_bro.jpg

Damn it, that's not funny.

Montana Patriot
12-25-2007, 01:30 PM
I think of flags as a type of advertisement. As such, any banner or placard can be made into a flag. And lets not forget that a hanging "medieval banner" would also be cool looking with different information on it.

Also we don't have to be limited to stars and stripes and such. A "Ron Paul for President" flag or hanging banner would be really cool to use at marches or rallies. How about a "Ron Paul Revolution" flag with LOVE backwards. Anything can be put on a flag/handing banner. How about a "restore the republic" banner?

"old glory" has it's meaning and it always will. No one is trying to replace it. Every rally and meeting should have plenty of them.

I am definitly against an "It was an inside job" flag.

Be creative within reason.
I think some Ron Paul for president flags would be awesome. Available in all sizes to fly from car antennas ect... to full size, anybody know where we could get some made.

TXcarlosTX
12-25-2007, 01:35 PM
look up the "act of 1871" the United States of America isnt anymore. its actually THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (note the caps because its a corporation) this act turned the US into a corporation that only has authority to the 10 mile radius of District of Columbia.

this is the other red pill stuff. another level . ha

you can actually defect and become a"freeman on land" under common law jursdiction

ecliptic
12-25-2007, 01:36 PM
I think some Ron Paul for president flags would be awesome. Available in all sizes to fly from car antennas ect... to full size, anybody know where we could get some made.

Here's a source for bulk Hemp fabric (http://www.hemptraders.com/index.php?cPath=21&osCsid=a5332be2cbec9ccaa3caee043f7609c1). Let's make some new designs! All the early American flags were made of Hemp!

H.R. 1009: The Industrial Hemp Farming Act of 2007 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-1009)

ecliptic
12-25-2007, 02:39 PM
I think some Ron Paul for president flags would be awesome. Available in all sizes to fly from car antennas ect... to full size, anybody know where we could get some made.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/5160/ronpaulcarflagng5.jpg (http://victorystore00.stores.yahoo.net/ronpapr08car1.html)

This is from the Victory Store link on these forum pages ...

Nice "campaign approved" look...

... I still like the idea of a new hemp flag/logo design for Ron Paul

damijin
12-25-2007, 03:05 PM
the flag proposed at the beginning of this thread (and sold on that website) is very appealing to me aesthetically and symbolically -- but I would never fly it without an American flag right next to it.

That said, I would rather see Gadsen flags flying at rallies and such. I see them from time to time, and because they are widely taught in schools and hard to forget once you've seen them, they do not create any confusion.

eldeeder
12-25-2007, 03:16 PM
Do you really know anyone that "died for our flag"...

Do you think they would say they "died for our flag."

Yes I do and I know a lot of other people that do to.
Don't even consider compromising the honor of Our Vets with an assinine statement like that.
If you want a flag to symbolize something for yourself that is fine, far be it for me to tell you you can't,
but keep in mind we are Patriots Ourselves
and we have boys over seas that are fighting under that flag while we sleep.

No matter what our stance is on This War we have a responsibility to see them given the honor they deserve for answering the call.

God Bless America and give us the power to right that which is wrong and forgive us for the things we cannot

Support the troops. :mad:

Edit your post Sir. Dr. Paul would not approve.


Nobody dies for a flag. They die defending an Idea. An Idea that is so much more powerful than a flag. A flag is just a symbol. Changing the number stars on our flag was no more dishonerable to past vets than the use of the civilian flag would be today. Im sure today the military would prefer to be under civilian control. Like its been said, no one is looking to replace, or disgrace the current american flag.

Well, actually, I guess it depends on one question. When joining the military, who does one take an oath to? The People? The Constitution? The President?

newbitech
12-25-2007, 03:18 PM
as long as we are allowed to burn it and not go to jail i'm down :rolleyes:

I think its an interesting piece of history but seriously this idea is not well thought out. First off people hate symbols like this flag. At this time in the Revolution, we should be past representing our ideals with symbols like a flag with stripes that run the wrong way.

This flag won't help Ron Paul get elected now. Once we have a victory, a true victory, then we can start raising flags. Raise it without the victory and disrespect the current national symbol of the United States and you are asking for trouble. May as well present the confederate flag.

On another note, I appreciate the history of the flag and I want to get more facts and details because I don't remember hearing about it anywhere else.

Finally, this idea made me think that we should really plan to support local candidates that have records of defending the constitution or at the very least pledged to do so openly and transparently.

eldeeder
12-25-2007, 03:20 PM
as long as we are allowed to burn it and not go to jail i'm down :rolleyes:

I think its an interesting piece of history but seriously this idea is not well thought out. First off people hate symbols like this flag. At this time in the Revolution, we should be past representing our ideals with symbols like a flag with stripes that run the wrong way.

This flag won't help Ron Paul get elected now. Once we have a victory, a true victory, then we can start raising flags. Raise it without the victory and disrespect the current national symbol of the United States and you are asking for trouble. May as well present the confederate flag.

On another note, I appreciate the history of the flag and I want to get more facts and details because I don't remember hearing about it anywhere else.

Finally, this idea made me think that we should really plan to support local candidates that have records of defending the constitution or at the very least pledged to do so openly and transparently.


I have to agree. This isn't a movement we need to catch wildfire, but there are a few of us who I think will still fly it just because we know what it means...

Craig_R
12-25-2007, 03:31 PM
I dont think anyone is gonna fly this flag in order to tie it in with Ron Paul. at least I'm not, however the patriot movement as been, and will remain to be around, since or after Ron Pauls run.

I am part of that movement so I have no reservations about flying the civil flag.

ValidusCustodiae
12-25-2007, 03:38 PM
There have been some good debunks on this, according to the best research I've seen, what many people call a Civil Flag is actually a customs flag and does not denote any sort of peaceful authority or anything as it has been suggested. There are several websites claiming there is a civil flag that go into a lot of detail but most of the supposed facts are unsupported at best.

In other words, seeing as how the U.S. civil flag did not actually exist and there is nothing about it in the U.S. flag code to back up that assertion, I don't think it'd be a good idea to fabricate one to use. A lot of people have become enthralled with this idea, I must admit I was pretty captivated myself at first. Once I did a little fact checking though, I found that there is only one U.S. flag and it's the common one.

Here is a good link with plenty of information and evidence. Not my site.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeo1z2a/CivilFlag.html

Nyte
12-25-2007, 05:04 PM
Yeah, that's what I found too.

I think it's my second post I point out that the "Civil" flag came about around 2004. This site said 2002. /shrug

I still like the idea of a symbol of the revolution. If it's not the civil flag, then I still like the idea of using the Rebellious Stripes... or the "Don't Taze Me Bro" flag ;)

((Although I still like the idea of a Civil flag))

atilla
12-25-2007, 06:07 PM
http://www.cannabisculture.com/library/images/uploads/2002-flag.jpg

Mark37snj
12-25-2007, 06:19 PM
I don't know allot of good men died for our current flag......maybe a good way to piss off allot vets.....

Exactly, I can see it now... Ron Paul supporters refuse to support Americas Flag, the Stars and Stripes, the very flag millions of patriotic americans fought and died for!!! They pledge allegiance to a new, UNAMERICAN, flag. This is an incredibly STUPID idea!!!!!!

Nyte
12-25-2007, 06:27 PM
Exactly, I can see it now... Ron Paul supporters refuse to support Americas Flag, the Stars and Stripes, the very flag millions of patriotic americans fought and died for!!! They pledge allegiance to a new, UNAMERICAN, flag. This is an incredibly STUPID idea!!!!!!

Jeez... did you even read through the thread?

Mark37snj
12-25-2007, 06:37 PM
Jeez... did you even read through the thread?

Do you think people looking for dirt on us to slander this campaign will read through this thread and be understanding, or not take it out of context? After reading and seeing how MSM misquoted, misrepresented, slandered/libel the good doctor this past week, even when his comments were RECORDED on MTP, this is an extrememly dangerous and unwise thread!!!!!!!

EDIT: You don't do ANYTHING that could possibly be construed as insulting the Stars and Stripes.

american.swan
12-25-2007, 06:40 PM
Not sure what you mean by a medieval banner.

I am speaking of something like this.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:lwlfZg-6Kz7t6M:http://www.knightsofthenorth.ca/tools_files/banners1.jpg

and this

http://thumbs2.modthesims2.com/images9/MTS2_188248_tiggerypum_thumb_medban1.JPG

To use during marches.

Delain
12-25-2007, 06:45 PM
Did some searching, its a weird flag history.


http://www.usflags.com/images/grandu.gif

Grand Union
The first (unofficial) national flag of the United States. It was raised in 1776 to celebrate the official status of the newly formed Continental Army by General George Washington, whose camp was then in Cambridge. Also known as the Cambridge Flag or Continental Colors. This flag combined the British Union Jack and the thirteen stripes signifying Colonial unity.

Now compare it with the flag of the Honourable East India Company:


http://www.usflags.com/images/grandu.gif


And this one has the modern-day EU flag in the canton


http://www.usflags.com/images/betross.gif

Betsy Ross
The first official United States flag, adopted by an Act of Congress on June 14, 1777. According to legend, a group headed by George Washington commissioned Philadelphia seamstress Betsy Ross to execute their design for presentation to Congress.

http://www.ciq.org.uk/images_new/eu-flag.gif

eldeeder
12-25-2007, 06:47 PM
Civilian flag a fraud? Post some links.


The BEST thing about the Ron Paul campaign is we call ourselves on our own BS... Thats why we will always have the upper hand!

Time for Change
12-25-2007, 06:52 PM
Then, please don't.

This is a very bad idea, people. C'mon, we're Americans. We already have a flag.

Creating a different flag might seem neat to some of us, but we need to make sure we don't just focus on doing what Ron Paul supporters think is neat, but consider what our fellow Americans will think is neat too. Do you honestly believe they will understand a new version of the flag?

Let's not do something that will hurt what we are trying to do here in this campaign.

Well Said!
Let it rest.

KMA-NWO
12-25-2007, 07:11 PM
Yes, please cite sources where the civil flag DOESN'T exist.

The Gadsden Flag isn't authorized by law, but it has a tradition. Just because the Civil Flag may not be directly authorized by law doesn't mean it lacks traditional use.

polomertz
12-25-2007, 07:18 PM
we might not need a flag because of the obvious problems...

But we do need a symbol for the revolution. The reason we need this is because there will come a day when Ron Paul is no longer running for president and long gone.

We need a way to identify each other. We need this to ensure the revolution continues

+1

american.swan
12-25-2007, 07:18 PM
I have a question for all the ANTI-FLAG people.

If the idea of some old forgotten flag that may or may not even be factual is dropped, would you support flags with obvious messages on them?

Examples:
A flag that says "Ron Paul rEVOLution"
A flag that says "Ron Paul for President"
A flag that says "FREEDOM"
A flag that says "THE CONSTITUTION"
A flag that says "Liberty"

my personal view: I think people have some confusion. Let me try and explain.
Situation 1. A father, mother, and son are at a Ron Paul rally. The mother and son are holding their Ron Paul for President yard sign and cheering for Ron Paul. The father is holding a customized homemade placard that reads "Freedom" on it. I think no one has any problems with this situation.

Situation 2. A father, mother, and son are at a Ron Paul rally. The mother and son are holding their Ron Paul for President flag they bought online and cheering for Ron Paul. The father is holding his customized flag that reads "Freedom" on it. This seems to me to be basically the same as the first situation but because this situation is using flags, rather than yard signs and placards, there seems to be a backlash against this, like flags have some kind of higher mystical power.

Oliver
12-25-2007, 07:22 PM
What is this thread about?

Maybe a poll would be a better choice to determine
if people want another symbol for Ron Paul. Quite a
late point to come up with such an idea - and will not
get much sympathy anyway since the R[EVOL]UTION
Logo is well established since the beginning.

anewvoice
12-25-2007, 07:24 PM
http://www.foundingfathers.info/stories/gadsden.html

LibertyEagle
12-25-2007, 07:57 PM
I have a question for all the ANTI-FLAG people.

If the idea of some old forgotten flag that may or may not even be factual is dropped, would you support flags with obvious messages on them?

Examples:
A flag that says "Ron Paul rEVOLution"
A flag that says "Ron Paul for President"
A flag that says "FREEDOM"
A flag that says "THE CONSTITUTION"
A flag that says "Liberty"

YES.

pikerz
12-25-2007, 08:03 PM
the civil flag is a proven hoax.

Corydoras
12-25-2007, 08:32 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_United_States

1.4 Fictional designs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_United_States#Fictional_designs)

I wish they explained WHY it's a "fictional" design. Does anyone have the story on that?

american.swan
12-25-2007, 08:47 PM
Two things to note:

1. The flag on this thread is fictional. Who said someone couldn't create a similar flag and use that regardless of what the web says about it? This is getting flack from people thinking this will somehow tarnish "old glory" or the individual just doesn't want to "fight" for freedom under a different flag other then the standard stars and stripes. This thread has a low rating because of this.

2. I think most if not all would fully endorse having flags representing the Revolutions message, such as a flag that says FREEDOM on it. This is a different issue. Perhaps another thread could be started where people can customize and buy flags with various message on them, like "Liberty" and "Ron Paul for President".

Please note my post #81 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=716710&postcount=81) of this thread.

AlexMerced
12-25-2007, 09:44 PM
I embrace this flag personally, fictional or not cause of what it represents. I'm not for flying it to replace the traditional flag, but to represent my support of ideals seemingly forgotten.

Pete Kay
12-25-2007, 09:45 PM
I'm all for a flag or a banner, but using a flag that resembles the American flag is a terrible idea because it appears to be a distortion of the American flag instead of coming across as something new and original. Some people may be offended by a flag that puts the Stars and Stripes on its side while being waved by anti-establishment people. That flag would only reinforce the misconception by some that Ron Paul supporters are anti-American.

AlexMerced
12-25-2007, 09:47 PM
I don't think anyone is expection this to be some widespread thing

Time for Change
12-25-2007, 09:50 PM
I don't think anyone is expection this to be some widespread thing

You never know...

Negative travels faster than positive sometimes

american.swan
12-25-2007, 10:34 PM
Well we could have like 20-30 different custom made flags and let the market decide which one if any should be adopted as a flag that represents a movement for the government to be for the people and by the people.

AlexMerced
12-25-2007, 10:39 PM
Well we could have like 20-30 different custom made flags and let the market decide which one if any should be adopted as a flag that represents a movement for the government to be for the people and by the people.

we have a national flag, that should stay as it is until we have a new state

Although if we respect peoples right to wave a confederate flag, then I don't see a probelm with this flag no matter what it's origins.

I like the flags presumed meaning, and am embracing it personally and don't plan on using it for campaigning or trying to garner support, just symbol to remind myself of what's changed

BeFranklin
12-25-2007, 10:43 PM
This flag is not fictional, btw. It was being mentioned in forums like this in the 90s, and the scarlet letter is a good quote example. As to the comment it was used mainly only in customs, well, back when government was constitutional, that was about all there was of the federal government that interacted with the states. There was no IRS, DEA, AFT, DOE, FTC, etc etc.

Be that as it may, I think sticking with the Don't Tread on Me flag and Revolution banner is better. People won't understand this historical oddity; and there are quite frankly a lot of historical oddities out there and even I don't understand all of them. It's taken Ron Paul 20 years to get this far, so it would probably take another 20 years to get people to understand the difference between the military and civil branches of government - and
NO STANDING ARMIES in times of peace.

Although, when Ron Paul is elected, I'm all for flying the flag in all the federal offices, which he can authorize with a stroke of the pen :)

FYI: This flag says nothing to veterans about what they fought under to defend this country. That is the whole point, this is the civil flag.

Nyte
12-25-2007, 11:00 PM
Great discussions. I really appreciate all the points of view presented here. ((Once we got past the whole anti-american thing ;) ))

Real_CaGeD
12-25-2007, 11:15 PM
Ok, made this in a few minutes. Let me know what you think.

http://www.nirnroot.net/WeAreRonPaul/CivilFlag/CivilFlagSmall.jpg

Yes, if you use "this" flag, use the one with the eagle.

Oliver
12-25-2007, 11:20 PM
I wish they explained WHY it's a "fictional" design. Does anyone have the story on that?

Their explanation is that the source for the Flag
is a description in a Romantic novel called "The
Scarlet Letter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scarlet_Letter)" - a Book published in 1850.

Mark Rushmore
12-25-2007, 11:27 PM
I say instead of the flag we bring these back (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_pole) for our symbol. More fun than a freeway sign, less controversial than a flag.

BeFranklin
12-25-2007, 11:47 PM
Yes, if you use "this" flag, use the one with the eagle.

Ok, I hate to add another issue, but maybe that should be the turkey :D

http://www.greatseal.com/symbols/turkey.html

The symbol of the civil government should be the turkey. I think it is obvious! :p And after a good Christmas meal, satisfying!

:)

pahs1994
12-26-2007, 12:35 AM
we might not need a flag because of the obvious problems...

But we do need a symbol for the revolution. The reason we need this is because there will come a day when Ron Paul is no longer running for president and long gone.

We need a way to identify each other. We need this to ensure the revolution continues

I was kindof wondering what would happen to all of us when this is all over. Are we in this for just ron paul or will there be other like minded canidates that this same group of people would follow. Anyways, just out of curiosity i would like to see some peoples ideas for a modern day revolutionary flag. and an explanation of whatever symbolism is put into it... but dont spend a week on it, we have the first primary in 8 days to worry about :eek:

pahs1994
12-29-2007, 02:54 PM
bump.. im still curious

Richandler
01-08-2008, 06:15 PM
I think more people should get these and fly them for up until Super Tuesday and perhaps beyond for Ron Paul.

Josh_LA
01-08-2008, 08:18 PM
but words still work better, couple it with a slogan, short and simple

"Patriot Movement"
"Revolution 2008"
"Take Our Country back"
"Time is running Out"

psalm82x3
03-29-2008, 07:32 PM
I called a buddy of mine who is in the military. We started talking about the things we were doing to get people thinking about liberty. He said he had recently started flying a civil flag. For those of you that posted how we should only wave our war flag, let me restate, my buddy is in the military.

For those of us who have served in the military, it is highly important to us, at least it was to me, that we were in a civilian run military. That is why I think flying the civil flag is a good idea, since we are not in a war declared by congress. Further, I am disgusted by how civilian politicians abdicate their responsibility to run our foreign policy by delegating that responsibility to military leaders like General Petraus.

sratiug
03-29-2008, 08:39 PM
I called a buddy of mine who is in the military. We started talking about the things we were doing to get people thinking about liberty. He said he had recently started flying a civil flag. For those of you that posted how we should only wave our war flag, let me restate, my buddy is in the military.

For those of us who have served in the military, it is highly important to us, at least it was to me, that we were in a civilian run military. That is why I think flying the civil flag is a good idea, since we are not in a war declared by congress. Further, I am disgusted by how civilian politicians abdicate their responsibility to run our foreign policy by delegating that responsibility to military leaders like General Petraus.


If this stuff in this link provided by ecliptic is true, I'm all for it too.
http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/mystery_of_the_flag.htm

Swmorgan77
03-29-2008, 08:43 PM
As I was doing more reading today, came across this website (http://www.uscivilflags.org/home.html) that talks about the US Civil Flag:


http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/b/b7/208px-Us-civil.svg.png



http://www.civil-liberties.com/art/flag17b.jpg



Thoughts?

Oh so THAAAAAAAAAAAT'S where they got the flag for the Neo-con Western government that takes over in Jericho!

Uhm why would WE need a different flag? We're the ones upholding the Constitution, which is by definition the United States government. Those who want to ignore or banish it should be the ones waving a new/different flag.

Aratus
03-30-2008, 05:07 AM
yes, we now should revitalize our movement by these examples of living history...

syborius
03-30-2008, 05:50 AM
in case some of you missed it

http://www.uscivilflags.org/home.html


great idea!!!!!!!! it's all there, we just need to promote teh website, get sales up, and use the flag at the marches coming up!!!!!

JDouglasFisher
03-30-2008, 06:34 AM
All this thread has become is a non stop contest of egos. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. Part of our movement isn't forcing the will of one upon another. Yet thats what I am seeing here.

Second, for anyone who is a true student of revolutionary war history, you'll come to find that there were numerous DIFFERENT variations on flags during the period, even after the United State's adopted its first flag.

Truth is, each individual regiment in the continental corps had their own preferences and often bought a flag from whatever region of the country they came from. Betsy Ross just happened to be lucky when recognized by Washington, but there were numerous seamstresses who had varying ideas about a flag.

My opinion, although I personally like the Gadsden Flag because it clearly sends a message, I also plan on flying something else as well, and I could care less what banner or colors another group from a different part of the country rally behind. Thats what made the first revolution so great, and it will be our individual differences that will make our "Restoration" of the constitution great once more.

Heres some resources, I suggest people learn what they are talking about, and respect the right and individual opinion of their neighbor as well. We already have too many chiefs ruling us in our country, we sure as hell do not need any more.

Some Flags... (http://www.bucklinsociety.net/more_flags.htm)

Some more flags, I personally like the Philadelphia Light Horse (http://www.martinsflag.com/historic/early.php?PHPSESSID=fa2eebe9b4c55bee60d6cd2191ae01 07)

And Some More, for you N. Carolina Folks, look at the Guilford Flag. (http://members.tripod.com/~txscv/revolt.htm)


Some interesting commentary on the military history of flag use from THIS WEBSITE (http://www.qmfound.com/heraldry1928.htm), and I quote...

During the Revolutionary War the troops carried flags of their states or flags designed for that particular organization.

After the Revolution, when the troops belonged to the United States instead of the states, the regiments carried flags similar to the present regimental colors. Apparently the design was based on the coat of arms of the United States, but it was not a correct copy thereof.

Some more. Check out the "Green Mountain Boys"... (http://www.flagline.com/gp0114&img=y&dd=)

sratiug
03-30-2008, 08:03 AM
Oh so THAAAAAAAAAAAT'S where they got the flag for the Neo-con Western government that takes over in Jericho!

Uhm why would WE need a different flag? We're the ones upholding the Constitution, which is by definition the United States government. Those who want to ignore or banish it should be the ones waving a new/different flag.

Where'd you see that?

The constitution was written to limit the power of the federal government. The government has been taken over by neo-con warmongers. We have troops at war with NO declaration. Civil rule has been usurped. A military takeover has occured from the top, by our draft dodging commander in chief.

This flag is right on target, imo. If the constitution was the government we wouldn't be in Iraq now.

Since we a fighting to end the war on drugs, war on terror, war in Iraq, war against the value of our dollar, war against the Bill of Rights, it seems a civil flag would be appropriate.

LibertyRevolution
03-30-2008, 08:28 AM
Oh so THAAAAAAAAAAAT'S where they got the flag for the Neo-con Western government that takes over in Jericho!

Im glad im not the only one who thought this.
You can take your Allied States of America flag and shove it.
You want to fly another flag, fly the Gadsden Flag.