Christmas Eve Dinner political talk w/family... problems

[Malakai0]

I was hoping (and expecting, judging by past experience talking to people my own age, I'm 24) to convert some of my closest family members to Ron Paul.
My uncle is a retired cop with a bachelors degree. Aunt is an elementary school teacher/horsebreeder/rider. My cousin teaches history and social studies for middle school, with a masters degree, working on doctorate. In fact that entire wing of my family almost all hold bachelors or higher and do some kind of civil service, mostly teaching. All the men on this side of the family work the stock market fairly successfully and understand our economic system well.

So, it went badly. Very badly, the explosions started going off almost immediately. So my aunt mentions the elections. My mom asks if they have heard of Ron Paul. Immediately my aunt says "well he's just a fringe candidate". My mom says "hmm I don't think so" and then I get involved. My mom says well my son really believes in him and I agree with everything I've heard so far. So she asks me what positions I like and I went on to explain some simple ones. Within 60 seconds my aunt uncle and cousin are all practically standing up yelling at me. My uncle did yell when I said I believe our policies are responsible for the 'terrorism problem'. When I tried to make the case of do unto others, IE what would we do if China did to us what we did to Iraq, it was over. I basically got talked down to and lectured for the next 20 minutes without getting anything in edgewise that wasn't immediately shot down as ridiculous or foolish.
Also, let me note this because I was surprised, NONE of them from their perspective think there are major problems with this country like many of us do. I got the strong impression they all believe those of us in really poor and declining economic circumstances brought it on ourselves for not working the system right, ie going to college and getting good jobs immediately after school, ect.

Needless to say I felt like leaving shortly after. I couldn't believe the almost instant hostility I got from close family, or how any points of mine were immediately dismissed as foolish or 'young' without even letting me explain. I was not expecting this from the extremely well educated 'american dream' wing of my family. I mean, these are good caring people. The worst part is I wasn't even started. With a response like that to the easy stuff, I can't imagine what the more controversial parts of our liberty philosophy would have gotten me.
So, are they all really just flat wrong? I mean, I'm just a nobody 24 year old working in the seafood department at a grocery store sitting on an associates degree. Things like the dishonesty of our monetary/banking system, the insanity of our foreign policy, and the unsustainability of our domestic policies just seem self evident to me.

I have to really sit back and ask myself what it all means. I am right and my entire well educated compassionate successful religious (in the normal sense, not extreme, just church on sundays and christmas mass) family are wrong. People with 2-4x more education and many more years walking the earth are just flat brainwashed. Can this really be true? It's giving me a headache.

So I got a glimpse into the world of people who get all their information from the mainstream media. Even very intelligent, well educated people believe what I consider propoganda. The islamic world is out to get us, they want us dead. Not because of our policies, because we are free and happy. They all definitely believe that the info I'm getting off the net is just crackpot insane people talk. Sigh

[Sey.Naci]

No, you're not wrong. You've had fewer years to be indoctrinated into the system, to be exposed to the propaganda of decades. Stick to your guns. You've got it right!

BTW, much of post-secondary education is, in fact, pressure to conform. I know this from experience. Contrary to what one would expect, the higher one goes, the less room there is made for intellectual exploration. The pressure to conform - indoctrination - becomes greater the higher one goes up the Ivory Tower. Ask most graduate students, who have moved from Bachelor to Master to PhD studies and they'll say the same thing.

[literatim]

Intelligence does not dictate wisdom. You gotta throw up numbers like $9 trillion in debt, $46 trillion in unfunded liabilities and the fact that we spend nearly $1 trillion in overseas spending. Also the fact that China owns $1 trillion of our debt and Saudia Arabia $500 billion. They could bring us to our knees without even a shot fired.

[Malakai0]

No, you're not wrong. You've had fewer years to be indoctrinated into the system, to be exposed to the propaganda of decades. Stick to your guns. You've got it right!

BTW, much of post-secondary education is, in fact, pressure to conform. I know this from experience. Contrary to what one would expect, the higher one goes, the less room there is made for intellectual exploration. The pressure to conform - indoctrination - becomes greater the higher one goes up the Ivory Tower. Ask most graduate students, who have moved from Bachelor to Master to PhD studies and they'll say the same thing.


My cousin FREELY ADMITTED THIS, like it was just a passing comment! He said, well you can fail classes in college with those idea's, colleges "lean left". I said that's ridiculous, my philosophy teacher loved my libertarian leaning papers. He says well you have leeway in community college, but in a university you are paying for a good grade so you need to do what will get you a good grade from that professor! I was shocked and said that's super wrong and no one should go along with it, I got laughed at and called naive.


Intelligence does not dictate wisdom. You gotta throw up numbers like $9 trillion in debt, $46 trillion in unfunded liabilities and the fact that we spend nearly $1 trillion in overseas spending. Also the fact that China owns $1 trillion of our debt and Saudia Arabia $500 billion. They could bring us to our knees without even a shot fired.

After 20 minutes of lecturing on why the world sucked before social programs, I tried to make an argument that our current system is unsustainable with numbers, but at this point the discussion was 'tabled' because no one liked what I was saying apparently =(

[kushaze]

If you have a computer at the home show them some video of Ron Paul speeches/debate footage.

[lucius]

Astute observations!

Keep reading, here are two books that expose our educational system, which is designed to retard self-determination:

The Underground History of American Education: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm

the deliberate dumbing down of america: http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf

"I applaud Iserbyt for her shocking, completely documented expose. A dynamite book which presents a clear chronology of educational restructuring. Compelling evidence shows school reform, supported by all political stripes, to be a totalitarian plan using Skinnerian behavior modification and other equally manipulative psychological techniques to subjugate future generations in a state of ignorant bliss."~O. Jerome (Jed) Brown, M.A., 25 yr. teacher, former candidate WA State Supt. of Public Instruction

[TSOL]

Ask them if the last 20 years has been acceptable to them.

[Malakai0]

Astute observations!

Keep reading, here are two books that expose our educational system, which is designed to retard self-determination:

The Underground History of American Education: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm

the deliberate dumbing down of america: http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/MomsPDFs/DDDoA.sml.pdf

"I applaud Iserbyt for her shocking, completely documented expose. A dynamite book which presents a clear chronology of educational restructuring. Compelling evidence shows school reform, supported by all political stripes, to be a totalitarian plan using Skinnerian behavior modification and other equally manipulative psychological techniques to subjugate future generations in a state of ignorant bliss."~O. Jerome (Jed) Brown, M.A., 25 yr. teacher, former candidate WA State Supt. of Public Instruction

Damn thanks dude! Someone had linked me these a few months ago on these forums, I bookmarked them and wanted them to show around tonight! But I lost my C drive to a crash last month and lost the info.
I was seriously thinking about these earlier today, wishing I rembered the names. I'm glad I made this thread!


Oh my mom is still on our side. However she suggests I 'stop being obsessed' with what's going on because you can't change the world and just shut up and try to finish school and be successful. Basically, you need to stop caring and become like your successful cousin.

Pretty thick stuff here. I don't want to cave, to give in to the corrupt system, to play by it's rules to get ahead in their game. If Ron loses the primary, what are we going to do, is what's running around my mind right now. Shut up and conform?

My main problem with the shut up and conform option is that people around the world are dying, including Americans, because we are shutting up and conforming.
I've never killed anything, even an animal, in my life. I'm not liking contributing to a machine that's killing fellow humans for bulls*it reasons...

[Birdlady]

It's easier to convert complete strangers than family members.
Usually family looks down on you and they do not respect you (regardless of what they say). If you are younger and less educated, they say you are too young to know or aren't qualified (my grandmother said this to me once) and don't know what you are talking about. I plant the seeds and let it go. There is no reason to keep badgering family especially if you have to see them often. haha

I had a little discussion with my mother in law and father in law tonight. My mother in law totally agrees that the war is wrong, our economy is totally messed up, but she doesn't think we can change it. She's very apathetic. However, I know she would support Ron Paul if she got in her head that she CAN change things. :D

My father in law on the other hand has this idea that supporting the troops is keeping them in this war. I told him that Ron Paul got the most military donations and there was that moment of silence. :p However, I feel there is no getting around this for him. He has associated his ego with the war and to admit that the war was wrong hurts his ego and everything he has stood for (he was in the army).

Well I left a few Ron Paul bumper stickers. :-)

Good luck to all those who try to plant seeds to family members. You might want to bring a shield with you to deflect all the nasty attacks and comments. lol

[Oldguard]

Here are a few links to follow that provides a serious eye opener on our educational system.

Mental Health and World Citizenship (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis14.htm) <<<<<< start here
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis15.htm) Part 1
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis16.htm), Part 2
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis17.htm), Part 3
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis18.htm), Part 4
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis20.htm), Part 5
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis21.htm), Part 6
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis23.htm), Part 7
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis24.htm), Part 8
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis25.htm), Part 9
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis26.htm), Part 10

Dennis Cuddy has a ton of interesting articles.

[USAF Vet Dan]

Malakai0, remember... your family, like all of Americans, have been subject to decades of MSM brainwashing. You're asking a bit much of yourself to try to undo all of that in 10 minutes. You have to rely on the "by the inch, its a sinch... by the yard, its hard" philosophy. Try to take one issue (Iraq, loss of privacy, etc.) that you think will be the easiest to "sell" and really prepare your case. Have documentation at hand and memorized... it will show them that you know more about that particular issue than they do.

Be patient, calm, and confident. Once you break through the barrier on that one issue, then it will be easier to open their minds to others.

Birdlady is right... it is harder to convince family than strangers.

And finally, get used to such reactions. It isn't easy being a "patriot". In the words of Mark Twain, "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."

[ThePieSwindler]

After 20 minutes of lecturing on why the world sucked before social programs, I tried to make an argument that our current system is unsustainable with numbers, but at this point the discussion was 'tabled' because no one liked what I was saying apparently =(

Wait whoa whoa whoa WHAT? So the investor/well off/pro-war side of your family was ADVOCATING social programs? Goddamn... so did they actually used reasoned points with evidence, or did they just say what they thought was "the way things were"?

I'm fairly lucky - its either my grandparents agreeing with his honesty and his stances on foreign policy etc (they are staunch newdeal democrat types), or my economic libertarian parents agreeing fully with his economic policies and view of what the size and scope of government should be. They are also incredibly respectful of my opinions and treat me as their intellectual equal for the most part. However, if this were not the case, i love them enough that i would rather battle them incessantly in attempts to free their minds from the shackles of the status quo, than to be "respectfully obedient". Fuck that shit - i respect my elders, but not to the point where i will let their "wisdom" be used as a qualifier and substitute for any lack of true arguement. Its not even about "winning" the arguement, its about intellectual honesty.

Personally, i have very little respect for the elderly simply becuase they are my elders. That does not mean i am RUDE to them at all - quite the contrary, i am very kind to older folks in a general setting, however, i will not hesitate to take their poorly preconceived notions to task. I make my judgements on and individual basis. It just so happens most of my familial elders are pretty respectful of my intelligence, and thus i am in turn respectful of their age and wisdom.

[V4Vendetta]

At least you tried. You Planted a Seed, as Jesus would say.

It will pay off..... but sadly.... it will probably be too late.
They will look at you while ya'll are in a FEMA camp.... and say.... well boy... you were right, i just refused to believe that was possible.

And yes, just because someone is smart, doesn't mean they can't be brainwashed.
Watch TV, read Newspapers and Magazines.... it will happen, especially when a handful of people own almost all of the TV stations, print media, and radio.

[bbachtung]

You have a lot of courage to have stuck with it and advocated for what you believe in in the face of illogical and irrational opposition. You probably got a little dose of what Ron Paul felt on that stage in South Carolina those many months ago when Giuliani displayed his ignorance ("I've never heard such an absurd explanation . . . ") while the masses cheered Giuliani's knee-jerk, illogical response. You are a true patriot -- go re-read / re-watch RP's speech, "In the Name of Patriotism (Who Are the Patriots?)": http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=571

[Malakai0]

You have a lot of courage to have stuck with it and advocated for what you believe in in the face of illogical and irrational opposition. You probably got a little dose of what Ron Paul felt on that stage in South Carolina those many months ago when Giuliani displayed his ignorance ("I've never heard such an absurd explanation . . . ") while the masses cheered Giuliani's knee-jerk, illogical response. You are a true patriot -- go re-read / re-watch RP's speech, "In the Name of Patriotism (Who Are the Patriots?)": http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=571

Driving us home, I said to my mom "now I know how Ron Paul feels at the debates".

Cool of you to notice =)

[constituent]

too much t.v.

it is amazing, you can tell right off the bat who watches too much t.v.

there is no civil discussion w/ people over topics they disagree with.

monkey see, monkey do. bill o'reilly gets hyped up and uses bullying
intimidation to prove his point, or simply "win." they see it works,
they use it... says much more about them.

don't sweat it, you've planted the seed. in time, they'll awake.

i was once permanently uninvited from all family functions b/c of similar discussions
involving politics, namely expounding on what a great congressional rep. ron paul was,
the need to end the fed, military-industrial and prison-industrial complexes....

this christmas, nearly every single member of my extended family pulled me aside
to find out more about rp... not to make up their minds, but so they could also
spread the word (after all these years, they know i'm the family expert on all
things ron paul).... my uncle even mentioned that he's met ron paul, and my
cousin said they have a RP signed constitution on the office wall!

[Corydoras]

My uncle is a retired cop with a bachelors degree. Aunt is an elementary school teacher/horsebreeder/rider. My cousin teaches history and social studies for middle school, with a masters degree, working on doctorate. In fact that entire wing of my family almost all hold bachelors or higher and do some kind of civil service, mostly teaching.

CIVIL SERVICE. Big goverment! Get it? I can hardly think of fields more indebted to big government than education and law enforcement. Of course these people would object to Ron Paul!

Look, there do exist good cops and good teachers, but these professions overall are constantly whining for more power, more money, and more laws. Because, you know, cops and teachers are "good caring people," so we ought to sign our rights and our paychecks over to them.

Going along to get along has served them well, and they show the arrogance of those who are well ensconced in the system.

Yes, they're brainwashed. So don't let them brainwash you. They just look down on you because you haven't done like them. You didn't sell out to the system.

[Corydoras]

P.S. You're not going to keep socializing with these people, are you?
They seriously disrespected you.
You're an adult and you deserve to be treated with dignity.

[shadow26]

P.S. You're not going to keep socializing with these people, are you?
They seriously disrespected you.
You're an adult and you deserve to be treated with dignity.

Getting together with family is the LAST thing I want to do around the holidays. Stress isn't healthy.

[lucius]

...I'm not liking contributing to a machine that's killing fellow humans for bulls*it reasons...

When I came to this exact same epiphany, I quit my high-paying defense contracting job making ordnance and got out of debt. It was very difficult at first, but now I am on my right path.

You have a good heart, be tolerant with yourself and keep reading.

[lucius]

Here are a few links to follow that provides a serious eye opener on our educational system.

Mental Health and World Citizenship (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis14.htm) <<<<<< start here
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis15.htm) Part 1
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis16.htm), Part 2
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis17.htm), Part 3
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis18.htm), Part 4
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis20.htm), Part 5
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis21.htm), Part 6
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis23.htm), Part 7
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis24.htm), Part 8
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis25.htm), Part 9
Mental Health, Education and Social Control (http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennis26.htm), Part 10

Dennis Cuddy has a ton of interesting articles.

What a great first post, I will come back to these later.

[Bossobass]

Hah! You're Uncle is Archie Bunker. :D

Reminds me of my Uncles. I'm 54 now and they're all dead, but I recall the pontifications every hollowday.

Be consistent. Time will prove you right. Don't get upset when you know you're right. Just be consistent.

I have no formal education but as time went on I surpassed all of them and my personal beliefs stayed consistent all of my life.

Imagine where you'll end up if you submit to the bullying just to be accepted even though it compromises who you really are.

Tell Uncle Archie to relax. He's gonna burst an aneurism and ruin Christmas.

Bosso

[JenHarris]

It's really difficult to win a group of people over to your idea if they are allowed to join together to gang up on you. But now you've started the conversation with them all so send them some individual emails explaining in greater detail why Ron is better for each of their important issues. You might not win them over but showing them links to articles/speeches by Ron or Lew Rockwell; even good newspaper articles might bring them around, or at least make them more sympathetic. Who knows what happens after a few months :)

[Commander Yo]

Yo,
Dude I scanned through your first post and I feel for you.

As a young American you are the most at risk from the status quo politics of the baby boomer generation!

It is always very difficult to talk politics with family and friends. But when you do be kind to and thoughtful of different viewpoints. Talking points for Dr. Paul

Tell your family that each one of them owes the federal government $>30,000. Tell them something needs to be done for your sake.

Tell your family that the constitution allows for defense by a declaration of War. The us has not declared war since WWII. Ask them how many military actions have we "won since then?" Ask them why we are in Iraq if the original premise for war, WMD is false?

Tell them that as a young American you will not have any Social Security to depend on. Ask them why its ok for you to support them, the baby boomers, for their failure to regulate spending while scarficing your retirement.

And most importantly, if you live in a Christian family that is Pro-life, against the death penalty and Pro-Peace; tell them Ron Paul is the only candidate who really respects the teachings of Christ!

Stay with it don 't get discouraged. Stay focused on your right to voice your support for Dr. Ron Paul, by voting in the primary and going to caucus for Dr. Paul!

As a young American this is OUR revolution to take back our future!

Ron Paul 2008!

[ShowMeLiberty]

Hah! You're Uncle is Archie Bunker. :D

Bosso

:D That was my first thought too. I'm in my early forties but I also vivdly recall the "generation gap" and the huge confilcts between the generations during the 1960's and 70's. Then, as now, the younger people spoke loudest for peace and free will and their elders called them naive, crazy, even anti-American.

Some of the older people today are going to be very resistant to Dr. Paul's message, especially the ones who were part of the peace movement 30+ years ago. Our message today sounds similar to theirs but they don't consciously believe in it anymore.

Many "sold out" and became "the man" or at least now quietly work for "the man". Reminding them of the ideals they once had and have since lost makes them very uncomfortable. Maybe they feel guilty for giving up and joining the system. Maybe their self-image and self-worth is all tied up in being convinced that they were right to give up the dream and join the system.

It's important, though, not to give up on this generation. Their resistance can be worn down in small increments, if done gently and with love. I think a lot of them really do want to come back to the ideals of peace, freedom and prosperity, and they will if they can do it without losing their self-respect.

Young people - when you talk to friends and family who were your age 30 years ago, keep in mind that you need to go easy. A little at a time may be best if you're getting resistance. They might be seeing their own youth reflected back at them when they see and talk to you. And it might hurt a little.

Best of luck to all of you. You are RIGHT. Take it from an "old lady". ;)

[Malakai0]

Awesome responses all, thanks.


I still believe!

These guys watched the 60's peace movement degenerate into a big drug and sex-a-thon so I also think they associate this sort of talk with 'distasteful things'.

Hope I'm not being conceited when I say our movement is more pure =) Less numbers, but more integrity, and our eyes are on the prize which is Prez Paul and peaceful ideological changes.

[Alabama Supporter]

Dude, I feel for you man. Like someone said before you planted a seed.

The sad thing I've learned with this campaign is freedom is not for everyone. Some people really are content with big government, big brother, and war. Luckily these folks aren't as motivated as us to get to the polls.

I don't recommend talking politics with these people anymore because they simply are not reasonable with you.

I'm glad you spread the word!