Can someone make signs of Ron with the baby in the flag?

[Adamsa]

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/6211/ronpaulbabbyflagus1.jpg

If crowds of people waving these doesn't get positive attention, I don't know what will.

[hillertexas]

bump

[Antonius Stone]

that is one of the most beautiful images i've ever seen... but if I could add something, I would make it look like RP is delivering baby America to Lady Liberty

[RSLudlum]

Very good artwork but wouldn't it be more appropriate to have him helping an infant take it's first steps holding one hand?? ;)

[rory096]

Um, this violates the Flag Code.

[dougkeenan]

Yet Dr. Paul has delivered more babies than raised them. :)

[t3rmin]

We need a whole series of these with the above mentioned ideas! ;-)

[Jordan]

Um, this violates the Flag Code.

+1

[dougkeenan]

How does a piece of art violate the flag code?

Here's (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=643169&postcount=54) a well phrased retort to that claim.

[withallmyheart]

Staples has a special going now. You can get an 18 " x 24" on foamboard for $10. Email the picture to them. The email has to be the high resolution picture. To do that you need to "save as" the picture to your computer. Then attach the picture to your email as an attachment. (At first I just "copied and pasted" the picture within the email and that is not a high enough resolution. It was very blurry enlarged.) I also " saved as" from the original site. www.acmwallet.com/ronpaul/
Staples referred to this special as a holiday special so I don't know how long it will last.
As an 18" x 24" print it is just awesome.
And yes, the artist/her father has given her consent to use the picture by calling it public domain. This IMO was an exceptionally kind act...a special gift to us all.

[rory096]

How does a piece of art violate the flag code?

Here's (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=643169&postcount=54) a well phrased retort to that claim.
The painting itself might not (not sure how that works), but the flag isn't supposed to be used as clothing. As for saying "fuck it," sure, you can do that, but that doesn't change the fact that it can alienate people.

[dougkeenan]

That particular flag is not clothing, it's a symbol that Dr. Paul attends the rebirth of liberty.

Are you alienated by babies? I think any affront is overestimated.

[Haywood1974]

you can fix the blurriness, somewhat, by photoshopping it....version CS has a feature called "smart object" that should allow you to adjust the resolution up as well as resizing it......my guess is that the original JPG was done at 72 dpi while something for a good print run would be 300 dpi....if you need help with it, PM me and I'll shoot you my e-mail address and I'll see what I can do for you....should only be abot a 5 minute fix

[Adamsa]

So, does this break "the law" or not?

[dougkeenan]

It does not. The artist donated her work and it's now in the public domain.

[Adamsa]

Excellent. :D

[NewEnd]

excellent idea
That painting doesn't do much for me, but I get the feeling it can make an impact.

[westmich4paul]

The painting itself might not (not sure how that works), but the flag isn't supposed to be used as clothing. As for saying "fuck it," sure, you can do that, but that doesn't change the fact that it can alienate people.
Tell that to Jim Craig of the 1980 U.S.A. gold medal hockey team. He wore it draped over him after they won. Nothing looked more patriotic.

[Jordan]

Tell that to Jim Craig of the 1980 U.S.A. gold medal hockey team. He wore it draped over him after they won. Nothing looked more patriotic.

Laws are laws, we dont care what you may happen to think about it. I happen to know a few people in the military who take it personally when a flag isn't displayed correctly.

We want to appeal to people, not immediately turn them off to the cause.

[deltabourne]

The painting itself might not (not sure how that works), but the flag isn't supposed to be used as clothing. As for saying "fuck it," sure, you can do that, but that doesn't change the fact that it can alienate people.
Oh no it violates optional, voluntary, unenforced laws? OH NO!!!!!

The only people this would upset would be flag waving jingoists who are all voting for Giuliani because "He goan keep amerkuh safe from da terrists"

Not exactly the target demographic

[LARRY08RP]

Title: The rebirth of America :)

[phree]

I don't like it.

[dougkeenan]

I like how it appeals to both people that like Ron Paul and those that like babies.

[Nyte]

Id rather see the flag wrapped around a newborn baby than wrapped around a coffin....

Aint NOTHING more respectful than associating a flag/symbol with a newborn, innocent, pure, beautiful life.

QFT

[Troyhand]

Here's the code section of Respect of the flag

The Flag Code - Respect for Flag
§ 8. Respect for flag No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.


(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.

(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.

(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.

(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free.

Bunting of blue, white, and red always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.

(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.

(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.

(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.

(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.

(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkin or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning. (Disposal of Unserviceable Flags Ceremony)

It speaks about the actual flag, not a drawing of the flag. Although it would violate section (h) "The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.", if there was a real person holding a real baby in a real flag. The code is not violated in this case because it is a representational drawing, not an actual flag.

One could argue that the flag in this drawing represents our constitutional republic and its ideals of freedom and individual rights, and the baby represents the rebirth of the citizenry back to those ideals with the help of Dr. Paul. One could argue many representations when dealing with symbolism.

My opinion? The code is not broken when an artistic representation of the flag is used. The code applies to the actual flag only. Otherwise, it would have specifically mentioned something about drawings of flags.

Edit: Another opinion: On this sentence...

The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.
The first part I agree with, the second part is just silly.

[Nyte]

Great post Troy.

The only part of the code I find ironic is:
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.

Except dead soldiers right? I mean, it's ok for the flag to be used to deliver the bodies of our dead soldiers home...

[phree]

I like how it appeals to both people that like Ron Paul and those that like babies.

I don't like babies.

[Antonius Stone]

once again, i think you should add in Lady Liberty. an Image of Dr. Paul delivering baby America to Lady Liberty would be perfect, imo

[dougkeenan]

Ron Paul likes babies. He delivered lots and lots of them.

[Iwantbatteries]

this line is great!

"The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property. "

note that the union is up in this particular picture. Extreme danger to property indeed.

[dougkeenan]

Ah, the baby is not in danger with Ron Paul. Good point!

[idiom]

I thought the baby is supposed to be metaphorical for America or Liberty. The only indicator of that Metaphor is the flag. The flag is not being used as swaddling for real sticky babies.

[MooCowzRock]

Laws are laws, we dont care what you may happen to think about it. I happen to know a few people in the military who take it personally when a flag isn't displayed correctly.

We want to appeal to people, not immediately turn them off to the cause.

I see what you're saying, but I think the way its used here is very tasteful. Most people I've talked to that hold a lot of respect for the flag only really have a problem when the flag is dis-respected, or devalued as a thing of "fasion." Here, its representative of something political and American, and is respectful, even if it doesnt follow the specific "code."

[KMA-NWO]

HOLD ALL HORSES: HIGH RESOLUTION (modified bottom text) AVAILABLE HERE:

http://silenceisdefeat.org/~lucian/ronpaul_hires_cc.png

(this is a LARGE filesize image (~10MB), if you don't intend to use it but just to look at it, a smaller version is below)

http://silenceisdefeat.org/~lucian/ronpaul_lores_cc.png

[phree]

Ask Dr. Paul what he thinks. My guess is that he would not "endorse this ad".

[dougkeenan]

His supporters get it. That's important even if your guess was reasonable. Which it isn't.

[phree]

His supporters get it. That's important even if your guess was reasonable. Which it isn't.

We shouldn't be wasting time with stuff that his supporters "get". We should focus on what undecided voters think.

[dougkeenan]

No one is being forced to "waste time" with this wonderful image.

We should all knock ourselves out going after undecided voters. So happens this artist's approach does inspire new Ron Paul supporters. Where may we see your approach?

[Troyhand]

We shouldn't be wasting time with stuff that his supporters "get". We should focus on what undecided voters think.

Phree. You don't even like babies.


I don't like babies.

It's hard for me to trust your judgement on what undecided voters may think.

[phree]

Look, I don't have a problem with devotional images, especially when the subject is a hero like Dr. Paul. My comments are based on the belief that this image will do little or nothing to help elect the good Dr.

[jake]

I for one think it's an awesome drawing

[phree]

People (undecided voters) get a little weirded out by stuff like this. I doubt that Dr. Paul would ever pose for this image so I doubt that he would like it incorporated into his campaign.

Anyways, it's grassroots so do what you will.

[dougkeenan]

Not "do," already done. People don't get weirded out by babies, trust me.

Where is your creative effort towards undecided voters?

[phree]

Not "do," already done. People don't get weirded out by babies, trust me.

Where is your creative effort towards undecided voters?

Look, the image is contrived and sappy. There, you made me say it, are you happy now?

[phree]

Where is your creative effort towards undecided voters?

My creative efforts involve deducing what issues are important to individuals I meet and then exposing them to parts of Dr. Paul's platform that are most likely to win them over.

[dougkeenan]

It's Christmas time. I was happy before.

Are you aware Dr. Paul is an actual OB/GYN? It's not contrived.

Are you aware Dr. Paul actually cares about liberty? It's not sappy.

Are you happy to knock down someone else's work without offering your own?

[derdy]

Look, the image is contrived and sappy. There, you made me say it, are you happy now?

It's a lot better than beating around the bush. ;)

[Menthol Patch]

Who cares about the flag code! This is a great image that needs to be used far and wide!

[Menthol Patch]

Oh no it violates optional, voluntary, unenforced laws? OH NO!!!!!

The only people this would upset would be flag waving jingoists who are all voting for Giuliani because "He goan keep amerkuh safe from da terrists"

Not exactly the target demographic

Anyone who would be offended by this image would never support Ron Paul anyway.

[literatim]

The image rules.

[phree]

Anyone who would be offended by this image would never support Ron Paul anyway.

I for one am not offended by it at all, but I don't think it's an effective tool for the campaign. I support Dr. Paul by focusing on the issues which is exactly what he does.
Dr. Paul doesn't try and build his image up by waving flags and holding babies.

We are already seeing an attempt to frame us as a cult and efforts like this only reinforce those smears. Again, Dr. Paul only wants to focus on issues.

Maybe I'm wrong about how Dr. Paul would react to this image. Why don't you send a copy to his campaign headquarters and ask him to approve it? It is his face you're using after all. If he approves it you can come back here and rub my nose in it.

PM me if you want the email address for his assistant campaign manager.

Dr. Paul: "It reminds me of what Sinclair Lewis once said. He says, 'when fascism comes to this country, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross.'

[Sey.Naci]

I actually didn't like the image until I saw it in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRTDynbHVYQ). It's so very appropriate there - a picture worth a thousand words.

[dougkeenan]

There's room for more than one tool in a toolbox!

This one works favorably on many people, probably most of whom like flags and babies.

It's your idea and you've got the eddy, so why not run with it? I'd like to known Dr. Paul's thoughts on it as well. But no nose rubbing. No french kissing either. ;)

[ladyliberty]

The painting itself might not (not sure how that works), but the flag isn't supposed to be used as clothing. As for saying "fuck it," sure, you can do that, but that doesn't change the fact that it can alienate people.

By that logic this graphic would also be wrong:

http://captain-america.us/images/wallpaper/warposters/uncle-sam.jpg

[westmich4paul]

Here's the code section of Respect of the flag


It speaks about the actual flag, not a drawing of the flag. Although it would violate section (h) "The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.", if there was a real person holding a real baby in a real flag. The code is not violated in this case because it is a representational drawing, not an actual flag.

One could argue that the flag in this drawing represents our constitutional republic and its ideals of freedom and individual rights, and the baby represents the rebirth of the citizenry back to those ideals with the help of Dr. Paul. One could argue many representations when dealing with symbolism.

My opinion? The code is not broken when an artistic representation of the flag is used. The code applies to the actual flag only. Otherwise, it would have specifically mentioned something about drawings of flags.

Edit: Another opinion: On this sentence...

The first part I agree with, the second part is just silly.

When my Father passed the Marines gave me a folded flag as a memorial to his service. Was this a code violation?

[phree]

Would we have Dr. Paul wrap an actual baby in a flag and parade around with it?

What is this if not pandering to emotions?

PM me for that email address.

[dougkeenan]

No and he won't stand in a harbor holding a lamp either.

It's not pandering, it's symbolism. Perhaps that's a little beyond your ken.

And I'm not your monkey - do your own work.

[Troyhand]

When my Father passed the Marines gave me a folded flag as a memorial to his service. Was this a code violation?

I don't know what the miltary code is for how to handle the flag. I googled the flag code and found one official site that had the code section entitled "Respect for Flag" which I posted earlier. Since the military makes the ultimate sacrifice in defense of the flag, I'm sure they have different allowances and ceremonies with respect to the flag. e.g. the flag-draped coffin of a war casualty.

[ErikBlack]

Um, this violates the Flag Code.

If people paid half as much time caring about the country the flag represents instead of fawning over a symbolic piece of cloth we might actually get something done

"I don't get sentimental over yellow ribbons and American flags. I consider them to be symbols and I leave symbols to the symbol-minded..."

-George Carlin

[Troyhand]

I for one am not offended by it at all, but I don't think it's an effective tool for the campaign. I support Dr. Paul by focusing on the issues which is exactly what he does.
Dr. Paul doesn't try and build his image up by waving flags and holding babies.

We are already seeing an attempt to frame us as a cult and efforts like this only reinforce those smears. Again, Dr. Paul only wants to focus on issues.

Maybe I'm wrong about how Dr. Paul would react to this image. Why don't you send a copy to his campaign headquarters and ask him to approve it? It is his face you're using after all. If he approves it you can come back here and rub my nose in it.

PM me if you want the email address for his assistant campaign manager.

Dr. Paul: "It reminds me of what Sinclair Lewis once said. He says, 'when fascism comes to this country, it will be wrapped in the flag, carrying a cross.'

More than likely, Dr. Paul would not use this image in the campaign. One reason being the irony in it after he quoted the Sinclair Lewis line, another being he is a humble man.
But so what? Does that mean he wouldn't endorse us using it, since it gives such obvious encouragement to so many of his supporters? Did his campaign encourage November 5th? Did it encourage the Teaparty? Do you think Dr. Paul will ever ride the blimp before Election Day?
The method in the madness of this campaign is that the grassroots have the power to direct how the message gets out. A decentralized, diversified gathering of ideas, where the best ideas will be chosen by consensus. Free-market philosophy. Of that, Dr. Paul would most definitely approve. Wouldn't you agree?

Separate from the above response: To reiterate, the flag code says nothing about pictures or drawings of flags.

[phree]

Okay folks, tell me what the message is. Dr. Paul loves babies and flags? He loves freedom? (Bush already took that one.) Dr. Paul will birth us all into freedom?

If you can't articulate what the message is then you obviously aren't operating from a perspective of good political strategy.

I won't post again here until you articulate the message.

[Troyhand]

I won't post again here until you articulate the message.

Thank you.

[dougkeenan]

Lol

[phree]

I take it back. I won't stop posting here until you articulate the message that this image represents.

Sorry.

[dougkeenan]

It represents the love of a daughter for her father. Did you read the story?

[Troyhand]

I take it back. I won't stop posting here until you articulate the message that this image represents.

Sorry.

Trollin', trollin', trollin'
Though those posts are swollen
Keep that thread a rollin'
Troll hides!

Move 'em up, write 'em in,
Write 'em up, barf it out,
post it on, bump it up Troll hides!
Set us up, write it out
Post it in, drag it out,
Spew it up, WASTE OUR TIME, TROLL HIDES!!!!!!!.

[integrity]

Okay folks, tell me what the message is. Dr. Paul loves babies and flags? He loves freedom? (Bush already took that one.) Dr. Paul will birth us all into freedom?

If you can't articulate what the message is then you obviously aren't operating from a perspective of good political strategy.

I won't post again here until you articulate the message.


the baby represents the sovereignty of the US which the globalists want to ABORT....... And Dr Paul and true patriots (the flag) are saving it and us!

[Cardinal Red]

I wrote some things (below) about this image earlier. I will add to it that I respect those who have flag code concerns and acknowledge there is a small risk there. However I feel that that risk is by far overwhelmed by the positive image of Dr. Paul as a Dr. delivering a baby in a beautiful, evocative, and patriotically themed ad. RP has high negatives and considerably lower appeal to women in polls than men. This sort of image drives down his negatives with the vast majority of voters and in particular helps him with women. I would love to know where I could purchase a couple hundred posters of this image to distribute out where I live.

My earlier comments on the image are below:

It is so powerful-- not only skillfully drafted but, emotionally evocative. I can't
remember the last time I was so moved by a piece of political art.

Putting aside my emotional reaction, and thinking of it from a political perspective,
like all of the best work that has been done for the campaign, this piece is wonderful because it absolutely reinforces our brand.

(1) It reminds everyone that Ron Paul is an obstetrician who has delivered 4000 babies-- people generally love doctors and everyone loves babies. Not everyone knows that Ron Paul was an obstetrician-- letting them know will boost his standing with voters.

(2) The implicit "Birth of freedom" or "Cradle of Liberty" message is powerful.

(3) Dr. Paul is looking out from the canvas, as if he is looking forward into a brighter future.

(4) It is solemn, serious and patriotic. The greatest strength of this campaign has been its fun and energy-- it's greatest weakness (obviously only IMHO) has been the tendency for a small minority of supporters to present themselves in ways that might be viewed by some potential voters as unpatriotic. This image undermines that line of attack by presenting Dr. Paul in the most powerful and patriotic light possible.

Guys if we are smart as a grassroots, this will get the widest possible distribution--
T-Shirts, Posters, etc. Even more than the wonderful rEVOLution, this is what Ron Paul is all about.

Plus, as has already been noted, it has a great backstory that includes a daughter who gave it as a Christmas present for her father.

[pikerz]

I'm pretty sure hes just making a joke about the flag code.

No flags were harmed in the making of this drawing. :)

[phree]

Just for the record I would like to reiterate that the artwork is nice. I too have a great emotional investment in Dr. Paul's bid for the Presidency so I understand the sentiment. Please excuse me if I don't parade around with a sign that would give Dr. Paul a rash on his ass.

[dougkeenan]

Got it, no ass rashing. So with what sign would you parade around? What, if not babies or flags, would go on your special Ron Paul holiday card?

[Troyhand]

Got it, no ass rashing. So with what sign would you parade around? What, if not babies or flags, would go on your special Ron Paul holiday card?

oh oh, now you did it. lol

[phree]

Got it, no ass rashing. So with what sign would you parade around? What, if not babies or flags, would go on your special Ron Paul holiday card?

End taxation without representation - ELECT RON PAUL

End needless war -

Save the dollar -

Protect our sovereignty -

Stop rewarding criminals -

Protect our privacy -

I could go on, but I think you get the "picture".

[jrich4rpaul]

Saying a drawing of a baby wrapped in the flag is illegal seems rediculous to me.

So can I go to jail for drawing a picture of a flag burning?

[rory096]

Saying a drawing of a baby wrapped in the flag is illegal seems rediculous to me.

So can I go to jail for drawing a picture of a flag burning?
No, Flag Code violations aren't jailable offenses. It's just a matter of respect; there are no penalties for violating it (indeed, it would violate the 1st amendment for there to be penalties).

[richk]

Personally, I think it's a work of art. Truly inspiring! Kudos to the artist.

But it could turn off alot of people that do not have the love for Dr. Paul that we have. I have to agree with phree on this. A lot of people think we worship Dr. Paul too much; this type of picture adds to that sentiment.

Who knows. :confused:

[dougkeenan]

Worship? That's silly. Respect? Most definitely.

[phree]

Worship? That's silly. Respect? Most definitely.

I'm starting to believe those who say we are a cult.


...and I just got a rash.

[dougkeenan]

I'm starting to believe you're pulling our legs.

[Anti Federalist]

How does a piece of art violate the flag code?

Here's (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=643169&postcount=54) a well phrased retort to that claim.

Here is that post:


Please understand that I am not directing this at you personally, but...

Fuck the united states flag code if it comes down to whether its ok to wrap a baby in it. I have respect for human beings first and foremost, and the flag is there to serve and symbolize this, not the other way around.

Id rather see the flag wrapped around a newborn baby than wrapped around a coffin. And Id rahter see the flag wrapped around a newborn baby than stitched on the shoulder of a gun-wielding, camo-covered maniac.

Aint NOTHING more respectful than associating a flag/symbol with a newborn, innocent, pure, beautiful life.

I couldn't agree more.

Flag Code my aching ass.

The same people that would bitch and moan about such a thing in this context are the same people that think all that flag represents is "killin' us some hayrabs" and cheering on "shock and awe" with some beer buddies around the tube.

[withallmyheart]

My husband came up with a title for this picture...
.
Ron Paul Delivers
.
I would add
.
Ron Paul Delivers Liberty

[fuzzybekool]

Here is the link of the young lady who made that drawing.

http://www.leahtiscione.com/