Police Raid Wrong House - Homeowner shoots them

[Dequeant]

With all the "oops we raided the wrong house" crap going on lately, i knew it was only a matter of time. This is like the 4th "wrong house" incident in 2 months.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j8GjxkwPTSMKmh7BzC7_Ec3R84mgD8TJD5PO0

I could see myself doing the same darn thing, he had 6 kids in the house! The "decision to charge" is pending, what a crock of BS....they kicked in the man's front door!

[conner_condor]

He was later released, and a decision on whether to charge him was pending

Charge him with what? Defending his home? Well you don't press charges against us and we won't against you? What charges assholes?

[constituent]

cops gotta learn, you get what you give.


...and we (americans) ain't takin' it anymore.


the era of the bully has come and passed.

[rawkd]

I think we need to get law abiding, freedom loving, constitution obeying, patriot policemen out there. Or we should become local sheriffs.

[FreeTraveler]

How about a chip-in for the homeowner for some shooting classes? He needs to improve his aim.

[rp08orbust]

How about a chip-in for the homeowner for some shooting classes? He needs to improve his aim.

His aim was fine. The two SWAT team officers he hit were protected by bullet-proof vests and helmets. Maybe he should have aimed for limbs though.

[MooCowzRock]

They are simply considering charging him with something, which is understandable and depends on the situation. If they made it clear they were police officers and it was easy to see, he should be charged. If they were anonymous, then he shouldnt be charged, and it was all simply a mistake.

Mistakes happen, god damn. You people will use ANY reason possible to hate cops.

[torchbearer]

They are simply considering charging him with something, which is understandable and depends on the situation. If they made it clear they were police officers and it was easy to see, he should be charged. If they were anonymous, then he shouldnt be charged, and it was all simply a mistake.

Mistakes happen, god damn. You people will use ANY reason possible to hate cops.


So you blame us for the hatred? not the actions of our police officers and their abuses? We don't need excuses, their actions speak volumes, and is quite self-evident.
Do you not realize that the laws, especially victimless crime laws, have turned our law enforcement into protectors of the "state" and enemy of the people.
This is the unintended consequences of collectivism.

[MooCowzRock]

So you blame us for the hatred? not the actions of our police officers and their abuses? We don't need excuses, their actions speak volumes, and is quite self-evident.
Do you not realize that the laws, especially victimless crime laws, have turned our law enforcement into protectors of the "state" and enemy of the people.
This is the unintended consequences of collectivism.
It wasnt an "abuse" is was an accident. If you're going out of your way to "hate" an entire group of people who risk their lives to hate you for a simple mistake, though a bad mistake, then you are a moron. Just like the soldiers, dont hate the ones that accidentally kill a civilian in their attempts to save more, doing their job, hate the ones that go out of their way to rape a 15 year old girl. You have to use some level of rationality in criticism. Some of you overly-anti-establishment people look for absolutely any reason to hate any authority what-so-ever.

I'll side with you any time a cop actually abuses his power, but 90% of the stories and videos people bring up, the cop isnt at fault, and its getting annoying. Stop LOOKING for a reason to hate cops, and people will take a little more seriously. LOOKING for a reason to hate cops leads to the same result as LOOKING for a reason to start war with Iraq. See how easy it is to get irrational in your "reasons" when you desire something?

[Dr.3D]

They are simply considering charging him with something, which is understandable and depends on the situation. If they made it clear they were police officers and it was easy to see, he should be charged. If they were anonymous, then he shouldnt be charged, and it was all simply a mistake.

Mistakes happen, god damn. You people will use ANY reason possible to hate cops.


How is anybody to know if the people breaking down their door are really police?
Anybody can yell, "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT!" and break down the door. It may or may not really be the police who break down the door.

A person does not have time to get identification of the people breaking down his door before he must defend himself and his family.

Police would be better off just knocking at the door and showing a search warrant.

[MooCowzRock]

How is anybody to know if the people breaking down their door are really police?
Anybody can yell, "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT!" and break down the door. It may or may not really be the police who break down the door.

A person does not have time to get identification of the people breaking down his door before he must defend himself and his family.

Police would be better off just knocking at the door and showing a search warrant.

They do that 99% of the time. However, there are situations with highly violent offenders, or likely to run offenders, where they have to use quick methods of surprise, which is perfectly understandable. In a situation where the guy is potentially going to try and shoot you to not go to jail(especially with offenders that have shot cops before) they wouldnt be better off just knocking at the door. But again, they do knock at the door 99.99 percent of the time.

[Dr.3D]

They do that 99% of the time. However, there are situations with highly violent offenders, or likely to run offenders, where they have to use quick methods of surprise, which is perfectly understandable. In a situation where the guy is potentially going to try and shoot you to not go to jail(especially with offenders that have shot cops before) they wouldnt be better off just knocking at the door. But again, they do knock at the door 99.99 percent of the time.

Wouldn't a stake out for those places where you can't just knock be a better approach? Just watch for the person they are looking for and arrest him before he can enter the house. Or arrest him after he leaves the house. Makes more sense than breaking down peoples doors.

These gang buster tactics are what is the problem here.

[MooCowzRock]

Wouldn't a stake out for those places where you can't just knock be a better approach? Just watch for the person they are looking for and arrest him before he can enter the house. Or arrest him after he leaves the house. Makes more sense than breaking down peoples doors.

These gang buster tactics are what is the problem here.

Not always, stake outs are used in some situations also, but not all for a reason. I dont know every detail of every situation and why they use different approaches, because I havent been trained as an officer before, and havent had the past experiences they have had to know completely why. I just use some common sense for most of them. Try asking a cop some of these questions personally, rather than make assumptions about them though, because neither of us have had the experience necessary to make such judgements.

[Dr.3D]

Not always, stake outs are used in some situations also, but not all for a reason. I dont know every detail of every situation and why they use different approaches, because I havent been trained as an officer before, and havent had the past experiences they have had to know completely why. I just use some common sense for most of them. Try asking a cop some of these questions personally, rather than make assumptions about them though, because neither of us have had the experience necessary to make such judgements.

Fair enough.

[pcosmar]

It wasnt an "abuse" is was an accident.
WRONG VERY VERY WRONG.
It was not an "accident" It was a crime.
They attacked a family WITHOUT a valid warrant.
They broke into a home.
That is a CRIME.
There is NO excuse.

[kushaze]

They have raided the wrong house in my neighborhood at least 3 times in 1 year, but for some reason it doesn't get that much coverage.

[1913_to_2008]

They are simply considering charging him with something, which is understandable and depends on the situation. If they made it clear they were police officers and it was easy to see, he should be charged. If they were anonymous, then he shouldnt be charged, and it was all simply a mistake.

Mistakes happen, god damn. You people will use ANY reason possible to hate cops.

Man, every post I read of yours...WOW!~ You just seem more like the Hyuckabee or Guiliani type.

How do you know that they identified their selves?

If you lived in the city and your door was kicked in, right in the middle of night even if they said they were cops would you believe them? Especially if you haven't done anything wrong?

[Mortikhi]

They are simply considering charging him with something, which is understandable and depends on the situation. If they made it clear they were police officers and it was easy to see, he should be charged. If they were anonymous, then he shouldnt be charged, and it was all simply a mistake.

Mistakes happen, god damn. You people will use ANY reason possible to hate cops.
They identified themselves as police, but the guy doesn't speak English.

If someone busted into my house and said "POLICE!" I'd still shoot at them. How am I supposed to know that they are really the police?

[pcosmar]

They identified themselves as police, but the guy doesn't speak English.

If someone busted into my house and said "POLICE!" I'd still shoot at them. How am I supposed to know that they are really the police?

Impersonating Police is a tactic often used by home invaders.
That is why you always check identification.
These No Knock raids are unnecessary 99.99% of the time.
They are wrong more often than is justified.

[Dr.3D]

Does anybody think the government of the United States would not shoot at an army coming into it's borders all the while saying "UN, SEARCH WARRANT!"?

[Time for Change]

read the entire story...

Yet another reason for individuals to be REQUIRED to learn ENGLISH when coming to this country. There are NO excuses. if you want to enjoy our freedoms, you MUST learn our language! (I have had enough of this crap.)

The situation was unfortunate, certainly, but had the person possessed the ability to communicate with AMERICANS, the situation would have likely diffused rather quickly with no shots fired.

On another note, the cops would be complete idiots to knock on the door of a drug dealer, or killer.
That just makes them an easy target. The element of surprise is necessary in MOST of these situations, for the safety of the officer.
I know MANY, MANY cops, and 80% of them are genuine people lovers. They have the job because they want to make a difference.
The others, well, they are just grown up bullies that wanted an extension of false superiority from grade school.
There will be complete numbskulls in any LEO organization, but you cannot lump them ALL into the bad apple cart, that is just plain WRONG!
That is just as bad as the haters saying an entire race of people is no good.
Narrow minded.

[John of Des Moines]

Family members said the shooter, the father of six, was frightened by the intruders early Sunday and fired through a closed bedroom door after first firing a warning shot.

IIRC, in Payton v. New York (1984) the US Supreme Court detailed the history of the warrant requirement. In the olden days the sheriff even with a warrant could not enter a home after 10 pm and before dawn except in cases of murder, treason and other infamous crimes. The purpose of the no entering at night goes back to Germanic tribal law and the idea only thieves go about in the dark of the night to enter people's homes.

[John of Des Moines]

read the entire story...

Yet another reason for individuals to be REQUIRED to learn ENGLISH when coming to this country.

That's not an excuse for the cops. How about if the family was deaf instead? It's about the cops breaking the peace and violating the warrant requirement. (See my above post). If the cops did it at night they committed a crime.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

On another note, the cops would be complete idiots to knock on the door of a drug dealer...

That's usually why this happens, and it's 100% not needed.

[MooCowzRock]

They identified themselves as police, but the guy doesn't speak English.

If someone busted into my house and said "POLICE!" I'd still shoot at them. How am I supposed to know that they are really the police?

hell, why should you even pull over for a guy that is in a car he could have painted to look like a cop car? Should you be able to even resist a guy who "could" not be a cop that has a "possibly fake warrant" and tries to arrest you?

To some extent, there is the danger of impersonators. But shooting at anything "just in case" is not the answer. That almost sounds like "shooting at anyone" because they "might" have a gun.

[Dr.3D]

To some extent, there is the danger of impersonators. But shooting at anything "just in case" is not the answer. That almost sounds like "shooting at anyone" because they "might" have a gun.

In some states, you can legally shoot at anyone who breaks into your home even if they don't have a weapon.

[pcosmar]

A search warrant must have the correct address and items to be searched for.
There is supposed to be evidence presented to a Judge.
In this case there was not a "Valid" search warrant.

This is what the law says about self defense in such cases.


�An arrest made with a defective warrant, or one issued without
affidavit, or one that fails to allege a crime is within jurisdiction,
and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest and break away. lf the
arresting officer is killed by one who is so resisting, the killing will
be no more than an involuntary manslaughter.� Housh v. People, 75 111.
491; reaffirmed and quoted in State v. Leach, 7 Conn. 452; State v.
Gleason, 32 Kan. 245; Ballard v. State, 43 Ohio 349; State v Rousseau,
241 P. 2d 447; State v. Spaulding, 34 Minn. 3621.


�When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right
to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by
force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense,
his assailant is killed, he is justified.� Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80;
Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1.


�These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an
arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by
the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private
individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.� Jones v. State,
26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State,
43 Tex. 93, 903.


�An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to
be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in
defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and
battery.� (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260)


�Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case,
the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer
and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.� (State v.
Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

It's the Law.

[Time for Change]

Did you ever stop and think...the guy may be simply following orders?
Protocol is move in swiftly, grab the bad guy, don't get yourself killed, don't question orders.

It sounds like a few of you would like to see
1. No Cops at all
2. No government at all

You may be in the wrong country yourself. There need to be laws, and people to enforce them.
No human will ever be infallible, face it, you're NOT, why expect that of somebody else?
Do the rules of the wild west return to the land?
What good would that do the country?
Do we let the drug dealers and murders run rampant, because a cop may make a rare mistake once in a while?
(if it is the same guy, repeatedly, then that may be a problem, but be realistic)
The cops are supposed to be fluent in EVERY possible language, so they don’t have communication issues?
I gotta call BS on that one. Immigrants MUST learn ENGLISH, period.

[pcosmar]

Did you ever stop and think...the guy may be simply following orders?

That defense was used by the Nazis at Nuremberg.

[Time for Change]

ok, you win.

Abolish Law Enforcement.
They are all Nazi operatives planning a discrete takeover of the world once again.
Never pull over, even though you were breaking the law with excess speed, because it may be an imposter that randomly selected YOU at the perfect time.
Never show any respect to the guys that risk their asses every day so they can be available when some punk breaks into YOUR house, and you call for help.

[Dr.3D]

ok, you win.

Abolish Law Enforcement.

Better to change the laws and the way they are enforced.

[MooCowzRock]

That defense was used by the Nazis at Nuremberg.

I dont fault the soldiers, I fault the men that gave the orders.

If its the leaders or the laws you have a problem with, then your blaming the wrong people.

[pcosmar]

ok, you win.

Abolish Law Enforcement.
They are all Nazi operatives planning a discrete takeover of the world once again.
Never pull over, even though you were breaking the law with excess speed, because it may be an imposter that randomly selected YOU at the perfect time.
Never show any respect to the guys that risk their asses every day so they can be available when some punk breaks into YOUR house, and you call for help.

That is not at all what I said.
But when those that are charged with upholding the Law are breaking the Law there is a serious problem.
The rights of the Citizens must come FIRST.

[werdd]

glad no one got hurt, you hear shit like this all the time now. And what is the reason? I guarantee they got a lead on drugs, its the war on drugs people and 99% of the time incidents like this are a result. End the war on drugs, and you wont hear shit like this. Another reason it is critical that we elect ron paul.

[pcosmar]

glad no one got hurt, you hear shit like this all the time now. And what is the reason? I guarantee they got a lead on drugs, its the war on drugs people and 99% of the time incidents like this are a result. End the war on drugs, and you wont hear shit like this. Another reason it is critical that we elect ron paul.

True that.
The war on drugs is the main reason we have a standing Police Army in this country.
Without the War on Drugs and the associated War on Civil Rights we would need fewer Officers.
The prison system could keep those Violent offenders locked up at a much lower cost.
Cities could use the resources in other ways.
Win Win all the way around.

[Time for Change]

I don't see the solution in any clear way.
Do we add 10 more LEO's for each case?

2 drive by and meet the occupant and tell him he is suspect,
1 to run an ad in the paper to inform the public that they think the occupant was involved in a crime
1 to call the occupant and tell them that they have units stopping by
1 to knock on the door
3 for language variants, on site
1 to provide extensive background info (to the suspect) for all the LEO's on the scene, to prove they are in fact LEO's,
1 to make sure that they place a pillow in the floor while he is handcuffed?

I am being a smartass, deliberately, because i think people have gotten way too worked up over a simple mistake, and blame the "Establishment" citing corruption.

Mistakes happen, we deal with them...we elected Bush didn't we? :rolleyes:

[Dr.3D]

True that.
The war on drugs is the main reason we have a standing Police Army in this country.
Without the War on Drugs and the associated War on Civil Rights we would need fewer Officers.
The prison system could keep those Violent offenders locked up at a much lower cost.
Cities could use the resources in other ways.
Win Win all the way around.

+100
The War on Civil Rights seems to be what the so called War on Drugs is all about.
Seems we are having all kinds of 'WARS' on something now.
The War on Terrorism seems to be another excuse to have a War on Civil Rights.

Why must there be so many WARS on stuff?

[Time for Change]

I know my responses look very troll like.
That is NOT my intent in any way.
I simply take issues like this very personal.

Yes they could have been a bit more careful in selecting the dwelling and instructing the LEO's where to go.
Yes they could have approached in broad daylight, where a potential violent criminal could have target practice.

There was NO way possible to know the occupant did not speak English.
They did NOT fire first; they fired in self defense, perfectly legal in the situation.
What is the citizen status of the occupant involved?

Hindsight is always 20/20, and it is easy to look back and give the shoulda / woulda / coulda scenario, but is it productive?


Lets look at the positive...NOBODY was hurt.

[pcosmar]

I don't see the solution in any clear way.
Do we add 10 more LEO's for each case?

2 drive by and meet the occupant and tell him he is suspect,
1 to run an ad in the paper to inform the public that they think the occupant was involved in a crime
1 to call the occupant and tell them that they have units stopping by
1 to knock on the door
3 for language variants, on site
1 to provide extensive background info (to the suspect) for all the LEO's on the scene, to prove they are in fact LEO's,
1 to make sure that they place a pillow in the floor while he is handcuffed?

I am being a smartass, deliberately, because i think people have gotten way too worked up over a simple mistake, and blame the "Establishment" citing corruption.

Mistakes happen, we deal with them...we elected Bush didn't we? :rolleyes:

A lot could be done with actual Investigation.
More could be done with Respect for Civil Rights.

How about holding Cops RESPONSIBLE for all these mistakes.

[pcosmar]

For more understanding. This is a little old.
An Epidemic of "Isolated Incidents"
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

[FreeTraveler]

They are simply considering charging him with something, which is understandable and depends on the situation. If they made it clear they were police officers and it was easy to see, he should be charged. If they were anonymous, then he shouldnt be charged, and it was all simply a mistake.

Mistakes happen, god damn. You people will use ANY reason possible to hate cops.

Once is a mistake. Search swat team mistakes on Google:

Results 1 - 10 of about 42,800 for swat (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=dict&ei=K0RtR_KPLqHGywSK0dlM&sig2=fjwKgzoCr90_utGDP0ZwpA&q=http://www.answers.com/swat%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNHzQgummEzMtVUjHwDiU4JbfPyCIA) team (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=dict&ei=K0RtR_KPLqHGywSK0dlM&sig2=7IqU_we5ZVjvVsxqcKVejQ&q=http://www.answers.com/team%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNESkNJGgOPLC0Ex9_CZGBcocjoN2g) mistakes (http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=dict&ei=K0RtR_KPLqHGywSK0dlM&sig2=ZARUuTJX3dtH9qemMYFWEg&q=http://www.answers.com/mistakes%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNECzj8WNmVuzfY-QX1-OW_cyN_m8Q). (0.24 seconds)

[FreeTraveler]

Another good indication of the level of "mistakes"

The following map is maintained by CATO.
Botched Paramilitary Police Raids:

An Epidemic of "Isolated Incidents"

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

If you still see this as a "mistake" after seeing what CATO has to say, I feel really sorry for you. Open your eyes before it's too late. It could be your door next.

[Dr.3D]

I'll be willing to bet, since he tried to defend himself and his family, the police claimed 'probable cause' and searched his home looking for something they could use against him.