Thoughts about "Fair Tax"

[Razmear]

A few weeks ago i heard the official Fair Tax promotional speech at a local event.
I was for it, now I'm not, at least how it's written.

The Prebate (or prefund) checks kill it for me.

The way it works is every household gets a monthly check to off set the tax that they would normally be exempt on. The amount is calculated based on family size, and every one gets the same amount if they have the same household criteria. I think a family of 4 gets about $500.

The IRS is eliminated and the task of getting the money to the people every month is assigned to The Social Security Administration who must now send cash to every person in the country.

The logistics and data gathering of this part turns me off the Fair Tax as its currently written.

[Mesogen]

I guess the SS admin would have to keep track of all kinds of you data and finances upon which to determine the amount of this "prebate?"

Just like the IRS does now?

[austin356]

While most people on here support your position (I also), I would gladly take the Fairtax over the current system.

Besides getting rid of the IRS, it would make taxes visible (on every receipt), and that would with out a doubt make people more anti-tax, thus putting additional pressure on politicians to reduce taxes.

I only trying to defend the fairtax on a comparative level, not from an ideal level.
I personally prefer no direct federal taxation on individuals, but I want to be realistic and if the FT is all we can get at this moment, I will take it. I personally believe Dr. Paul would end up compromising with some type of dumbed down version of the Fairtax (17% or so) because the whole establishment is against his idea of elimination of income taxation.

[JaredR26]

A few weeks ago i heard the official Fair Tax promotional speech at a local event.
I was for it, now I'm not, at least how it's written.

The Prebate (or prefund) checks kill it for me.

The way it works is every household gets a monthly check to off set the tax that they would normally be exempt on. The amount is calculated based on family size, and every one gets the same amount if they have the same household criteria. I think a family of 4 gets about $500.

The IRS is eliminated and the task of getting the money to the people every month is assigned to The Social Security Administration who must now send cash to every person in the country.

The logistics and data gathering of this part turns me off the Fair Tax as its currently written.

Well actually when you think about it, the logistics of it and the data gathering are a LOT less than what we currently do. It is also voluntary data gathering.

I don't think the data gathering is good, but I don't see any viable alternative that provides for a fair and transparent tax. For the tax to be fair, you have to have information on the people you are taxing. This one ONLY collects family sizes, nothing else. The prebate is not dependent on any other factors, which is what makes it fair.

Furthermore, this is voluntary as opposed to the IRS. If you don't want the government to know about your family size, you don't apply for a prebate. The government doesn't just send money out.

If it weren't for the prebate, you'd have a significantly high national sales tax which would hurt the poor much more than the rich.

[JaredR26]

I guess the SS admin would have to keep track of all kinds of you data and finances upon which to determine the amount of this "prebate?"

Just like the IRS does now?

No, the prebate is only based on your family size. It is also something you apply for. If you don't want the government to know anything about you, you don't apply for a prebate.

The Fairtax would also tax Illegals and tourists/visitors.

[ARealConservative]

A few weeks ago i heard the official Fair Tax promotional speech at a local event.
I was for it, now I'm not, at least how it's written.

The Prebate (or prefund) checks kill it for me.

The way it works is every household gets a monthly check to off set the tax that they would normally be exempt on. The amount is calculated based on family size, and every one gets the same amount if they have the same household criteria. I think a family of 4 gets about $500.

The IRS is eliminated and the task of getting the money to the people every month is assigned to The Social Security Administration who must now send cash to every person in the country.

The logistics and data gathering of this part turns me off the Fair Tax as its currently written.

I have never liked that part either. The onyl reason the provision is there, is to convince class warfare people that the tax will be regressive.

How about a more high tech solution - All citizens get a card that is scanned. The first x dollars they pay for goods in a month is tax free.

Illegals wouldn't have a card. Idiots would lose their card. In which case they will not receive tax free products.

[JaredR26]

I have never liked that part either. The onyl reason the provision is there, is to convince class warfare people that the tax will be regressive.

How about a more high tech solution - All citizens get a card that is scanned. The first x dollars they pay for goods in a month is tax free.

Illegals wouldn't have a card. Idiots would lose their card. In which case they will not receive tax free products.

So you are suggesting the government be able to collect much much more data on us as we purchase things? That doesn't seem like a good idea. The prebate requires less data collection for the same result.

[ARealConservative]

So you are suggesting the government be able to collect much much more data on us as we purchase things? That doesn't seem like a good idea. The prebate requires less data collection for the same result.

not really. The card would have to collects transaction dollar amounts, but nothing else.

Once the dollar amount reaches the prebate limit - you throw it in the garbage and weight for a new card to be mailed next month.

The only concern is in being able to get a tamper proof card - but mailing rebate checks is even more vulnerable to theft.

[aravoth]

If you eliminate the IRS and the Federal reserve, you would not need the Fair tax, or the income tax. The people we borrow money from are laughing thier asses off at the fair tax movement.

[JaredR26]

If you eliminate the IRS and the Federal reserve, you would not need the Fair tax, or the income tax. The people we borrow money from are laughing thier asses off at the fair tax movement.

Then where exactly do you propose we get the funds for our military? Or any of the other services that the government provides that we do need?

[angrydragon]

The income tax only provides for 1/3 of the federal government's revenue.
Cut back on the spending, you could eliminate the income tax easily.

[JaredR26]

The income tax only provides for 1/3 of the federal government's revenue.
Cut back on the spending, you could eliminate the income tax easily.

Thats taken from a very specific Ron Paul quote. He is referring to the personal, individual income tax only. He is not referring to the sum of all funds generated by the IRS. Removing the IRS entirely would essentially wipe out all government programs, including the ones that almost everyone agrees is necessary, like the military. The funds need to come from somewhere, the question is what is the fairest, most straightforward, and efficient way to collect them?

I have to say that the idea of the card used to revoke taxes on purchases is not a bad idea. It is still pretty open to tracking though, as you could tie a person to their card, and therefore to their purchases and locations. It is also susceptible to fraud if people were to duplicate the card.

[angrydragon]

You could look at the numbers at cbo.gov and it'll give you the same result. We would save money by not having bases around the world and policing the world.

[rpf2008]

I'm for a flat tax on all goods and services. It's the easiest to implement, easiest to enforce and hardest to get around.

[Dary]

The funds need to come from somewhere, the question is what is the fairest, most straightforward, and efficient way to collect them?

What does the Constitution (pre 16th. Amendment) say about where the money should come from?

[aravoth]

Then where exactly do you propose we get the funds for our military? Or any of the other services that the government provides that we do need?

From the taxes already there that pay for them. Like the gas tax paying for roads, or property taxes paying for schools, police, and fire, Social Security has it's own tax, as does medicare, and medcaid. Contrary to popular belief our military is not funded by the income tax, at all. It's funded by a corporate excise tax. And some of it is funded by patent holdings, from things invented by Nasa.

If you read the findings of the Grace Comission you'll see where every dollar of the income tax goes, I promise you you will not be pleased with what you learn there.

The reality is, the income tax is unessacary, always has been. The root of the problem is not the IRS though, it's the fact that we have a private bank loaning us all of the money we spend. Every dollar, every cent, is literally on loan, based on nothing, and inflated on a whim. This is why the whole nation pays very close attention to the Federal Reserve. Which is a private bank, about as federal as Federal Express. You've seen it before, several times. Every time Alan Geenspan got up and talked about interest rates. He's basically telling us how much interest will be imposed on the next set of loans that come out to literally fund everything we do. That is where the income tax goes. It pays down the interest on trillion dollar loans the United States takes from the privately owned, Federal Reserve Bank.

So, in short. If you aboloish the Federal Reserve and start printing our own money rather than borrowing it, like we used to. Our money would have no interest, because of that, there would be no need for the IRS. And there certainly wouldn't be a need for the "Fair Tax" which would essentially replace something that already isn't needed, with something else that isn't needed.

Theres no reason for us to work three months out of the year to pay down a debt we shouldn't even have. Same goes for the fair tax.

[Razmear]

How about a more high tech solution - All citizens get a card that is scanned. The first x dollars they pay for goods in a month is tax free.



I'd rather see a low tech solution, exempt grocery and medicine items and do away with the prebate all together.

I'm all for doing away with income tax in favor of a national sales tax, but the Fair Tax method isn't the best way to do that. Also, if you cut spending enough, the tax does not need to be anywhere near the 23% they advocate.

eb

[EvoPro]

Dr. Paul has advocated low-rate tariffs in an interview this year. But I agree with Razmear, about a low tax on items except food and medicine. The fair tax, with it's prebate, is more government control over people. Which is totally uneeded.

[Harald]

What does the Constitution (pre 16th. Amendment) say about where the money should come from?

Besides tariffs, taxes used to be apportioned among the states according to their electoral numbers.

It was actually a brilliant system (before 16 and 17th amendments).
It allowed nice way to balance the size of federal government.

1. people (house of representatives) want more services and demand more money for the federal government to do good
2. states that pay taxes to federal government resist the taxation via senators