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View Full Version : I need help replying to this comment by my friend




StateofTrance
12-19-2007, 12:46 PM
We go to same university.


Overturning Roe w. Wade and making safe & legal abortion a "states' rights issue"? No, thank you.

This is a women's health issue, not a state government issue. Before Roe v. Wade, doctors that gave abortions were often jailed. If Roe v. Wade is overturned, it is more than likely that the enforcement of anti-choice legislation would be the same now (at least, I would certainly hope that mothers wouldn't be the ones penalized!). But it's problematic no matter what: Jail the doctors and you leave women who are looking to terminate pregnancies with several dangerous options and few safe ones (to say nothing in terms of expense).

Several states already have laws on the books that would make abortion illegal if Roe v. Wade were overturned; Many of these laws do not even make exceptions for rape, incest, or preserving the life of the mother. The reason abortion has been kept legal since 1973 is because of the toll that illegal abortions and particularly rough pregnancies had on the health of women. Making abortion illegal -- as time has proven again and again, and as we can learn in observing countries that do not have laws protecting this procedure -- does nothing to preserve the sanctity of life, but rather puts women's lives at risk.

The U.S. already has a pitifully low healthcare standard when compared to other countries in the developed world, especially where women and children are concerned. Creating a country where abortion is only available to those who live in "progressive", more prosperous places like California, New York, or other places like that does nothing to address the problem of healthcare for women at the nationwide level, and would create a model wherein women who benefit from economic and racial privelege can have access to procedures that women without those priveleges do not -- despite the fact that the only reason abortion has been made legal at all is so women who do not have that sort of access, wealth and privelege can attain a degree of health care that is of comparable quality to women who do.

It bothers me greatly to see issues of women's health discussed so dismissively and in terms so abstract. It baffles me that anyone else in Louisiana would actually defend a so-called "states' rights" platform or seek to rely on the Louisiana state government to protect any civil rights whatsoever (seriously -- study the history of civil rights legislation in Louisiana sometime!). And it really disturbs me that some would see not *failure*, but *opportunity* in observing in the state government's notorious fumbling when it comes to issues of social programs and civil rights.

Ron Paul is most DEFINITELY not the type of leader who would bring any good to the citizens of Louisiana (to say nothing of his economic platform, which I won't go into here). And it frustrates me that people don't realize this.

StateofTrance
12-19-2007, 12:54 PM
This is a good take : http://www.rightgrrl.com/carolyn/roe.html

N13
12-19-2007, 12:55 PM
Your friend would have to become active politically in Louisiana, become part of a movement that led to legislation that protects abotion rights to some degree.

I've seen Dr. Paul use this technique. "Would you be in favor of allowing a doctor to abort a baby that is only weeks away from being born. A baby that would survive if the mother had a c-section? The answer 99% of the time is no. Then you are against abortion."

From there it is a matter of when it is and is not allowed.

Your friend needs to realize that the abortion issue in insignificant compared to the other more pressing problems that this nation faces. Smaller government, balanced budget, reduction in spending, reduction in taxes, economic collapse, monetary collapse.

StateofTrance
12-19-2007, 01:00 PM
Thank You, Sir. I'll write some points down.

Mark Rushmore
12-19-2007, 01:01 PM
Ron Paul is most DEFINITELY not the type of leader who would bring any good to the citizens of Louisiana (to say nothing of his economic platform, which I won't go into here). And it frustrates me that people don't realize this.

Unless of course under what is 'good' they include 'protection' and under 'citizens' they include the eight-month old unborn.

nist7
12-19-2007, 01:02 PM
The guy sounds like a die hard liberal/socialist. Don't waste your time with him.

He generalizes that Dr. Paul would bring "noting good" to the citizens of Louisiana and he opposes Dr. Paul's economic platform????

Yeah, your friend is a communist.....;) He is beyond salvation.

StateofTrance
12-19-2007, 01:03 PM
Actually, it's a girl and yes she is a liberal - but open-minded.

scbissler
12-19-2007, 01:07 PM
Ask your friend if she'd rather see Roe v Wade overturned and abortion oulawed nationally? The states rights aspect as least assures legal abortions in some areas of US.

emilysdad
12-19-2007, 01:07 PM
We go to same university.

Sorry, I stopped reading after the first line.

"This is a womens health issue not a goverment states issue."

I happen to agree with Dr. Paul when he states this is a Right to Life issue not a Freedom of choice issue.

But, I doubt your friend will understand this.

j0ew00ds
12-19-2007, 01:09 PM
As I see it, one of the main goals of the Constitution is to move the most volatile issues closer to the citizen. For instance, a declaration of war is done in the House, the branch closest to the individual. The same theory applies to abortion. Overturning Roe V Wade pushes the decision down to the state level where in theory, your friend has more of an affect on the law. Dr. Paul also believes according the constitution that the Supreme Court rules on waaaay too many cases while it should be opting to bounce cases back to the state with the reason being "it's a state issue."

Goldwater Conservative
12-19-2007, 01:10 PM
This is a women's health issue, not a state government issue.

Don't waste your time. This person doesn't care what the law of the land is. The Constitution is subservient to his/her political demands.

Also, this seems to be one of those people who'd rather have an authoritarian government that lets you get abortions to a free society where abortions are restricted. Civil libertarian indeed.

ARealConservative
12-19-2007, 01:11 PM
Ask him how far he will allow this intervention to go on.

He clearly has no problem interfering in the government of a place like Alabama. Will he extend this further and interfere in the government of Mexico concerning abortion?


When he says no, ask him to explain why his intervention stops at the state?


He will be squirming to unravel his spaghetti logic at this point. Let him squirm because you have just introduced him to hypocrisy 101.

Next up - compare abortion with selling organs or prostitution. Why is it ok for a given state to criminalize prostitution, but not abortion. Make him explain the constitutional reasons behind it. He will be squirming much more at this point.

In a nut shell, SCOTUS has rules that it is a privacy issue - but I doubt he gets this nor will he explain why abortion deserves privacy but prostitution does not.

Lastly, I like to talk about the big picture. We are 9 trillion in debt, we have soldiers in harms way, yet we are going to elect federal politicians based on their views on abortion, health care, and gay rights? Really? Seems pretty stupid to me.

scbissler
12-19-2007, 01:12 PM
I've seen Dr. Paul use this technique. "Would you be in favor of allowing a doctor to abort a baby that is only weeks away from being born. A baby that would survive if the mother had a c-section? The answer 99% of the time is no. Then you are against abortion."

From there it is a matter of when it is and is not allowed.


Exactly. Most folks are agianst abortion as soon as they believe that what is being aborted is a "human life". So all the arguments about choices and health are really just red herrings. The real question is, what does a society do when there are different views of what is human? I personally like an expansive view of humanity..

nist7
12-19-2007, 01:16 PM
Don't waste your time. This person doesn't care what the law of the land is. The Constitution is subservient to his/her political demands.

Also, this seems to be one of those people who'd rather have an authoritarian government that lets you get abortions to a free society where abortions are restricted. Civil libertarian indeed.

Well said.


Ask him how far he will allow this intervention to go on.

He clearly has no problem interfering in the government of a place like Alabama. Will he extend this further and interfere in the government of Mexico concerning abortion?

When he says no, ask him to explain why his intervention stops at the state?

He will be squirming to unravel his spaghetti logic at this point. Let him squirm because you have just introduced him to hypocrisy 101.

Next up - compare abortion with selling organs or prostitution. Why is it ok for a given state to criminalize prostitution, but not abortion. Make him explain the constitutional reasons behind it. He will be squirming much more at this point.

In a nut shell, SCOTUS has rules that it is a privacy issue - but I doubt he gets this nor will he explain why abortion deserves privacy but prostitution does not.

Lastly, I like to talk about the big picture. We are 9 trillion in debt, we have soldiers in harms way, yet we are going to elect federal politicians based on their views on abortion, health care, and gay rights? Really? Seems pretty stupid to me.

:D

jdmetz
12-19-2007, 01:19 PM
Here's an article about a preemie born at 21 1/2 weeks who has survived:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Health/story?id=2888874&page=1

Would it have been ok to kill Amillia the day after she was born? If not, then why would it be ok to kill a baby that old who is still in the mother?

StateofTrance
12-19-2007, 01:23 PM
Thanks for the comments, guys..I'm making some notes. I cannot vote, but I can change the mind of someone who can.

Corydoras
12-19-2007, 07:59 PM
Making abortion illegal -- as time has proven again and again, and as we can learn in observing countries that do not have laws protecting this procedure -- does nothing to preserve the sanctity of life, but rather puts women's lives at risk.

This is not true. Making abortion legal does not make it safe or eliminate abortion outside health facilities. In Ghana, for example, after TEN YEARS of legalized abortion,

58% of pregnancy terminations were performed outside legally designated health institutions and 30% were self-induced. Sepsis was present in 15.7% of cases from health institutions and 21.5% of those from unregistered premises or self-induced.
East Afr Med J. 1995 Dec;72(12):774-7



the only reason abortion has been made legal at all is so women who do not have that sort of access, wealth and privelege can attain a degree of health care that is of comparable quality to women who do.
Then she has admitted that legalizing abortion has nothing to do with the rights in Roe, and therefore Roe is spurious and based on a lie.